First World Revolution

[Le People]

Call me a crazy asshole, but I'll tell you how the revolution will happen. First off, screw the anarchist. They are a minority that does not matter. Now the rest of us, the Maoists, Marxists, Trotskyist, Leninists, and the others, and yes the Stalinists, will alley our sevles with the liberal parties's left wing. Then, we will work to win over the whole party paitenlty and with out force, unlike the republican's radical right, and work our way up the system. In the system, we will beat capitalism within an inch of it's life threw reform. Mean while, we will be building up a force of armed insurrection, educating the masses, and when the time is right, meaning reform has beat capitalism with in an inch of it's life, we over throw. Think of reform as tying capitalism up, placing duct tape on it's mouth, puting it in the trunk, driving it out to the desert, and the revoulotion as shooting it.

[CrazyModerate]

I believe it can't happen until a 100% laissez faire libertarian or other capitalist comes to power and living conditions drop for most people.

[black magick hustla]

Ahahahahahahaha

Stalinists are so brilliant!


I think that in order to radicalize first worlders, The "first world" needs first to collapse. That would probably happen after the enslaved third world countries would revolt and overthrow capitalism and the foreign market. After that, the first world will simply collapse, radicalizing first world workers.


Also, I don't worry that much about some kind of stlainist/maoist/leninist seizes the state. At the end, people will only realize the unavoidable truth about the corruption of the state, and overthrow it.

[Donnie]

Call me a crazy asshole, but I'll tell you how the revolution will happen. First off, screw the anarchist. They are a minority that does not matter. Now the rest of us, the Maoists, Marxists, Trotskyist, Leninists, and the others, and yes the Stalinists, will alley our sevles with the liberal parties's left wing. Then, we will work to win over the whole party paitenlty and with out force, unlike the republican's radical right, and work our way up the system. In the system, we will beat capitalism within an inch of it's life threw reform. Mean while, we will be building up a force of armed insurrection, educating the masses, and when the time is right, meaning reform has beat capitalism with in an inch of it's life, we over throw. Think of reform as tying capitalism up, placing duct tape on it's mouth, puting it in the trunk, driving it out to the desert, and the revoulotion as shooting it.
You really do not want to be doing that because we can make it highly difficult for you. You are definitely are a class enemy in my eye's. The anarchist view is one of class struggle so if you ignored us you would be ignoring parts of the working class. It’s as simple as that.

If you did take that view, what’s to stop us from using "Propaganda by the deed" on you :P .


Maoists, Marxists, Trotskyist, Leninists, and the others, and yes the Stalinists, will alley our sevles with the liberal parties's left wing.
I smell a reformist. I don&#39;t think it would take very long for a Stalinist or even a Leninist to not get noticed in a liberal party. <_<

Also once you got in power and you said "ahah I&#39;m in power now". You probably be instantly overthrown because you used no propaganda in you&#39;re way to power and so everyone would just see you as a nutter and overthrow you and most of the working class would see you as a class enemy, a power crazed nutter with a red hat on. :P

[Urban Rubble]

So......your plan is Democratic Socialism?

How revolutionary&#33; :lol:

I&#39;m not going to begin to explain what is wrong with your post.

[h&s]

First off, screw the anarchist. They are a minority that does not matter.
Well you got something right.... :P


Now the rest of us, the Maoists, Marxists, Trotskyist, Leninists, and the others, and yes the Stalinists,
People who oppose worker&#39;s direct control of society are not to be included....ever&#33;


In the system, we will beat capitalism within an inch of it&#39;s life threw reform
HOW???&#33;????


Think of reform as tying capitalism up, placing duct tape on it&#39;s mouth, puting it in the trunk, driving it out to the desert, and the revoulotion as shooting it.
How are you suupposed to do that whilst being inside it? :rolleyes:

[Colombia]

Eh, at least the guy tried. Still though, Le People that is just not going to work at all.

[Le People]

Look, you don&#39;t under stand. In this world of globalization, the whole world is getting the finger by a group of rich cappies. Jobs continue to go to chinia, India, and the like, that lessens the buying power of the American and European consumers because nobody is buying any thing, so the whole market is going to emploed since their is no money being transfered between any class. This will cause a short devied between the haves and have nots. You follow? So while capitalism is going to hell in a hand basket, we will attempt to strength the proletarian for the crash, educating them, strengthing unions, and screwing the fat cats every step of the way by nationalizing various markets. We have to concide, we are an unheard minority, to gain a voice, we must patiently convince the liberal parties to transplant their lungs to us. Advertise ourselves as populists, thats what we are. When the market crashes, convinceing the masses to revolt is like breathing, they need no coaxing to do it. Anarchist still have to fuck off, they have no room in the state if they don&#39;t support it.

[h&s]

I understand what you are saying, but there is no need to become part of capitalism to overthrow it. People will see what is wrong with capitalism in their own time, by developing a true class consciousness.
Overthrowing capitalism through populaim means that the working class does not have the consciousness it needs to rule society during socialism - they will fail.
You also have the problem with actually being allowed to remain in the liberal parties you talk about - we would be kicked out as soon as we surfaced, we could never get to the top.

[Anarchist Freedom]

First off, screw the anarchist. They are a minority that does not matter


You know thats a pretty bold statement to make.

[which doctor]

I&#39;m not a big fan of anarchists either. Without order chaos will happen. Crime will run rampant in the streets. People will shoot whoever they want. The rich will still be able to get richer and the poor will go ignored.

[Colombia]

I don&#39;t like anarchists much myself Blood but I&#39;ll tell you right now that the way you think anarchism works is pretty much wrong on all counts.

[Ownthink]

Call me a crazy asshole


screw the anarchist. They are a minority that does not matter.

Crazy asshole.

Since when is totally disacknowledging minorites Communist?


I&#39;m not a big fan of anarchists either. Without order chaos will happen. Crime will run rampant in the streets. People will shoot whoever they want. The rich will still be able to get richer and the poor will go ignored.


You must not be a big fan of knowledge either, because that isn&#39;t what Anarachism is/advocates at all. Go educate yourself, there is plenty of information and knowledge on this board to do so.


Onward Communism.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by Fist of [email protected] 19 2005, 01:32 PM
I&#39;m not a big fan of anarchists either. Without order chaos will happen. Crime will run rampant in the streets. People will shoot whoever they want. The rich will still be able to get richer and the poor will go ignored.
wow, your not to bright eh? there is organization in anarchism for one, secondly most anarchists want communism just as you do(im not sure if your for communism, but im guessing so), therfore your speaking against what you belive in.

[MoscowFarewell]

Anarchist and Communist are in a similar boat, they aren&#39;t really the minority. I see the anarchy sign in the world through graffit and art, way more than I see the hammer and sickle, not to mention there is always some lil punk screaming it in the halls. The rise of the left in a first world would have to start, is when capitalism is shown going to shit. Crash of the stock market, high unemployment, basically another heavy set depression in the current age all through capitalism. You hit it before the recovery occures. This is what I learn in marketing class.

[Clarksist]

Originally posted by Fist of [email protected] 19 2005, 05:32 PM
I&#39;m not a big fan of anarchists either. Without order chaos will happen. Crime will run rampant in the streets. People will shoot whoever they want. The rich will still be able to get richer and the poor will go ignored.
Do you even know what anarchy is?

Do you even know what anarchists societies look like?

Oddly enough, they look like COMMUNIST societies.

[More Fire for the People]

Call me a crazy asshole, but I&#39;ll tell you how the revolution will happen.
O&#39; Really now?


First off, screw the anarchist. They are a minority that does not matter.
I think the Spanish and Ukranians would think very differently.


Now the rest of us, the Maoists, Marxists, Trotskyist, Leninists, and the others, and yes the Stalinists, will alley our sevles with the liberal parties&#39;s left wing.
You have forgotten the council communist.
We (Marxists) do not alley ourselves with liberal parties, as they are part of the class system.


Then, we will work to win over the whole party paitenlty and with out force, unlike the republican&#39;s radical right, and work our way up the system.
And how do you propose to do this? By winning them with charm?
I doubt the bureaucrats will want to voluntarily want to hands to the proletarian, seeing as when it comes to bourgeoisie democracy they are more powerful and better resources.


In the system, we will beat capitalism within an inch of it&#39;s life threw reform. Mean while, we will be building up a force of armed insurrection, educating the masses, and when the time is right, meaning reform has beat capitalism with in an inch of it&#39;s life, we over throw. Think of reform as tying capitalism up, placing duct tape on it&#39;s mouth, puting it in the trunk, driving it out to the desert, and the revoulotion as shooting it
Why not let the state fire the shot that eliminates the bourgeoisie state?
Surely if only the proletarian are in power, they can murder the bourgeoisie state easily. Unless they have become corrupted.
In which case they will fight off the proletarian revolution in the name of "peaceful socialism".

[Paradox]

Now the rest of us, the Maoists, Marxists, Trotskyist, Leninists, and the others, and yes the Stalinists, will alley our sevles with the liberal parties&#39;s left wing.

:lol: What exactly are you trying to build here? Because there&#39;s no way it&#39;s Communism.


Then, we will work to win over the whole party paitenlty and with out force, unlike the republican&#39;s radical right, and work our way up the system.

What are you going to do? Lie your way to the top? If you&#39;re openly Communist (which practically no one would take seriously because you&#39;re working with the system) you won&#39;t be able to accomplish a damn thing. Do you really believe that you&#39;ll be able to work with the "liberals," and bring about Communism by "winning over the whole party?"

Your proposals are laughable. Not to say reformists can&#39;t prove useful in some ways. But they do not work with "liberals." The developments in Venezuela being an example of movement in the right direction. They&#39;re standing up to imperialism, and reforming the system to benefit the disadvantaged who make up the vast majority of the population, and helping to industrialize the nation. But they are still reformist. Through their work, the country will come closer to the point where it is prepared for a real Communist revolution. But that&#39;s pretty much just in Third World nations. In "First World" nations, such as the united states, the chances of accomplishing Communism through the system, and working with the "liberals" is rather ridiculous.

[Organic Revolution]

im not even gonna bother answering that ridiculous statement.

[novemba]

....aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahaha

[Le People]

Necro Oner, are you Howard Dean? :D

[novemba]

shit you caught me.

goddamnit.

[Le People]

Wait a sec, you are that guy who wanted to go to Mexico to train with Zappitatist. Buy a gun, read Carlos Maghenellie or whatever&#39;s Urban Guerrilla Warfare, then Che&#39;s Guerrilla Warfare, and Mao&#39;s On Guerrilla Warfare, and take a plane to Nepal.

[Xanthor]

to the idiot who doesnt know about anarchism read against civilization (We are all anarchists deep down) and watch this now http://www.socialist-tv.com/toppage1.htm (scroll down to see the vid)

[Le People]

You know, Anarchism is a crappy system. Since there are no laws you can&#39;t stop one from exploting his fellow man. I know what you say, will get rid of explotation in the revolution&#33; You can&#39;t&#33; In order to be an Anarchist, you must not surpress any oppressor because you don&#39;t beleive in government, that you beleive oppresses, so to opress the oppressor you must us some form of government. And if you use some form of goverment, you&#39;er contradicting yourself.

[anomaly]

Anarchism is no rulers, not no rules. Now, how will these rules be made with no rulers? Obviously, to avoid official hierarchy, a (true) democracy will be used, or even consensus, depending on the matter at hand, likely. So there will be a &#39;government&#39;, I suppose, but the government will literally consist of the people (all the people).

[Le People]

I see. So are you saying the government will be that crazy old fart down the street that calls the cops every time a dog gets lose? Anarchism will never work. There will always be ruled and a ruler. I&#39;m not even a communist. I don&#39;t believe the state will ever whither a way.

[anomaly]

Well then, Le People, you are a reformist. This certainly explains your opinions well...

No, the &#39;government&#39; won&#39;t be that &#39;old fart&#39;, but rather it will be your entire community, who know each other well. Are you really denying the decision making capability of the collective, of the people?

[LSD]

I see. So are you saying the government will be that crazy old fart down the street that calls the cops every time a dog gets lose?

Yes, along with everyone else. That&#39;s called democracy.

Are you perhaps suggesting that some people aren&#39;t "capable" of decision making? That some people are "natural" leaders? That maybe we should just allow these "natural leaders" to make all the decisions...


There will always be ruled and a ruler.

Why?

And, more importantly, who gets to decide who falls into which category?


I&#39;m not even a communist. I don&#39;t believe the state will ever whither a way.

No, in fact you seem to be saying that the state is a "good thing". That it is needed to keep the "crazy old farts" in check.

There&#39;s a word for that kind of thinking: fascist.

[redmafiosi]

Originally posted by Le [email protected] 18 2005, 02:46 AM
I&#39;ll tell you how the revolution will happen. First off.....
Please dont tell. Revolution doesn&#39;t happen like that. You may tell how you can make a palace out of a deck of cards but not a real life revolution. Try to understand that you are nothing but a piece of wood or brick or other in this society. The motive force will take the history in it&#39;s own direction.Every day and in every moment this motive force is increasing in the form of somthing like a potential difference.When it overcomes the critical value the entire society(call it a social system) will go for the transition(i.e revolution.) This potential difference reveals itself in the form of class strugle. Arms and ammunitions has nothing to do with the revolution.It is required only because the forces of reaction try to resist it by state power. The powder you smelt on the streets of cremlin in the days of Lenin was not the revolution. But the change of the ownership of property, shifting of power to the soviets and the formation of the cooperatives were.

[Le People]

I&#39;m saying is that every body is equal. We all have the same potentional and people use it differently. I&#39;m considered an intellect, because I&#39;ve cocentrated in that feild, while others are consideres athletis because they concentrated in that feild. I&#39;m all for mass participation. My goal is to elevate the majority(proletarian) in a position to rule the minority(bourgise). There will always be a class structure because ideas are a hard thing to kill. Some will always cling to capitalism, and they&#39;ll never let go. There will always be a ruler and a ruled. I want the dictatorship of the prolitarian. As to the old farts, I just used them as an exapmle, you know, the neighbor hood busy body. They&#39;ll be most active and that scares the hell out of me. :D Oh and about Facsim, I am not an elitist, I just beleive in majority rule instead of no rule at all.

[anomaly]

You don&#39;t explain why &#39;some&#39; people will &#39;cling&#39; to capitalism. First, understand that the bourgeoisie will have no say in the matter. So the question becomes, why will the proletariat cling to capitalism, a system that continually fucks them? Your acceptance of class shows that you are an authoritarian. Does equality scare you? Don&#39;t you realize that democracy is majority rules (on most decisions, like I said, some may need a consensus decision)?

[Le People]

Hell yeah, I know it means majority rules&#33; But in anarchy there is no dedicated body of people who administrate the laws. I believe it could work as long as there was a police force, I would prefer a militia, and a judicail system to handel criminals. I believe stealing would go away, but I talking about murders, rapists, and kidnappers. The proletarian would never cling to capitalism, and the bourgise would be wiped out, but the petty bourgise can blend in after the revolution and alienate the prolitarian with capitalism. I love majority rule. Maybe I came off wrong by saying there will always be a ruled and a ruler. I should of said there will always be organization, and laws are what keep things organized. I&#39;m sorry for comeing of as a Stalinist.

[anomaly]

But what you continually fail to recognize is that the people themselves can get together to make decisions. In some decisions, majority would indeed rule, in others I&#39;m guessing consensus will be needed (the criteria for the two processes would also be decided by the people). The people also can police themselves, form people&#39;s militias, etc. The judicial system can be totally wiped away, and it can turn into the acused defending himself, the accuser explaining himself. Then, the people of a commune can make the decision based on those arguments. There is no need for a set &#39;ruler&#39;. There will be organization always. What anarchism changes is how this organization is decided. Remember, anarchism is no rulers, not no rules.

[Le People]

I&#39;ll take that arguement.

[Stellix]

No one in the US/Western Europe has material basis to support any kind of real Socialist revolution. This is because most people living in these countrys live comfortably off the rape and plunder of the third world.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2005, 02:41 PM
No one in the US/Western Europe has material basis to support any kind of real Socialist revolution. This is because most people living in these countrys live comfortably off the rape and plunder of the third world.
Not through conscious choice.

And how does this negate the possibility of a "material basis" emerging in the west in the future?

[Stellix]

Originally posted by The Anarchist Tension+Jul 27 2005, 01:55 PM--> (The Anarchist Tension @ Jul 27 2005, 01:55 PM)
[email protected] 27 2005, 02:41 PM
No one in the US/Western Europe has material basis to support any kind of real Socialist revolution. This is because most people living in these countrys live comfortably off the rape and plunder of the third world.
Not through conscious choice.

And how does this negate the possibility of a "material basis" emerging in the west in the future? [/b]
I never said they chose it. Many are fully aware of it and want to change it, people like myself.

The possibility could emerge in the future, but so many Westerers have been brainwashed to think that "Communism just does not work". It would take alot for people to see the truth.

[Le People]

Globalization will turn the 1 st world into the 3rd world.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2005, 03:03 PM
The possibility could emerge in the future, but so many Westerers have been brainwashed to think that "Communism just does not work". It would take alot for people to see the truth.
Yet working class people adopt communist ideas during struggles or become interested or inspired by the idea.

Historically the working class have reacted to capital and the "material basis" emerges, at which point the idea is easily propogated and even adopted. Paris Uprising a prime example of such an opportunity.

[Warren Peace]

Le People, reform will never get that much done, at least not in the U&#036;.

Even though I have anarchist leanings, I have to agree with you on anarchism. Without a people&#39;s government and a people&#39;s army, there will be nothing to stop oppression from rising to power, and we&#39;ll just end up with feudalism until some country conquers our little utopia or revolutionaries rise up and form an actual state&#33; And don&#39;t say that once we have stateless communism nobody will want to rise to power or commit crimes. You can&#39;t get rid of those things, they&#39;re in human nature&#33; You can only supress them with a people&#39;s state.

My solution is, after the imperialist government has been overthrown by revolution, to have a leftist/socialist government of spokespersons, a people&#39;s army, and let the people make all laws and major decissions through direct democracy after they&#39;ve been reeducated.

[romanm]

There is a very detailed thread on IRTR forums about the communist view of what revolution looks like when it is imposed on a bunch of Amerikkkan parasites. It is a thread entitled "One Big Gulag" pinned in the theory section at marxleninmao.proboards43.com .. There is a two line struggle over what the early stages of proletarian rule will look like in Amerika. In any case, check out marxleninmao.proboards43.com

[Le People]

My whole goal of reform is to lessen the empending blood shed that usally accompanies a revolution ( save the October Revolution of 1917).

[novemba]

What ever happened to eglitarian society?

This one big gulag sounds like a holocaust to me. I needs to be executed differently, much differently. What you don&#39;t realize is that this one big gulag idea is going to create an oppressed class of exportees/slave workers that will eventually become more true to marxist theory than the proletariat, and by then the oppressor and oppressed will switch roles, the bourgeosie becoming the new opressed class.

I don&#39;t know how, but it needs to be executed in a way where no one is singled out. Worldwide revolution.

[anomaly]

The problem is that such &#39;worldwide&#39; revolution is extremely unlikely. I think its best that we have &#39;localized&#39; revolutions. Any revolution could be put down by the US, therefore I think it is wise to leave the US. Like I&#39;ve described to you, Necro, we could travel to Latin America where the revolutionary spirit is alive and well. There will be no world revolution, there will be numerous, but small, local uprisings. In such a scenario, there will be less bloodshed, and there will be much public support (otherwise the uprising would never happen in the first place, of course).