Am I losing faith in socialism?

[Bulls on parade]

I have considered myself a socialist for a time, but the more i think about the system, the more it seems out of reach.

I know socialism and marxism stand for the most important ideals to people - equality, freedom and justice - but i look around at all the people in the world and see that they are not concerned with these things.

People are working for themselves, focusing their entire lives on the pursuit of wealth and material possessions. They unconciously see this as their sole purpose for living.

Now you could say that this mindset is a product of the society we live in. From youth we are brought up to believe that we must take our place in capitalist society. Even the education system is merely a way of preparing you for this role, and is no longer just for the joy of aquiring knowledge.

It seems hopeless. How can we change the way people think? Everybody wants money, power and to be better than someone else in some kind of way. They are indifferent to others. I don't think the human race will ever get over these flaws.

Ive spent many hours thinking about how we could make this system work without forcing people against their will and so far i cant find a way to do it. Im so confused about the way it would work and how it could work.

Your thoughts? Shed some light on this because its driving me insane...

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

The communist system doesnt work.Cause of 1 really simple fact.Ppl are selfcentrish. they only think of them self and how to achieve wealth in their lives.
But....
If you use that selfcentrich part of the human to work for the community. The incomes will raise compared with the "old" system. You should give bonusses to those working hard. ofcourse not the weaker ones of the society.handicaps ,ppl with deases like cancer orso only if they are suffering really under it. I know a person who has cancer but doesnt want to stop educating until the pain is unbareble or she dies. She is for me an example of a great person cause she stands in the class with pain and pure off unselfishness.
but im wandering off.
You should government taxes and prices cheaper for the poor ones. Like this:asking of a wealthy man 20%tax on something and for a poor man who buys the same product 12% orso. In the old soviet union the problem was everyone got the same paycheck how even some worked much harder. If this system would be introduced the selfish ppl would work too and feel more responsible.
if you have read this. Plz give me comment orso, tell me what you think of this id.

[Mahdavikia]

Yes, it will be very difficult to build a communist society if the mentality of humans does not change. We should continue to beat us to change this mentality. It is necessary that we think as well of the others and not only our own happiness.

[trebboR]

But as most ppl know, a capitalist country cannot be changed into a communist one in just a single day. It probably takes about 500 years to compklete a perfect communist state. First it will be socialistic. WIthin that system, there is an government making sure that everything works, gettin things in order for the communist state. When it is time to change the socialist system inot a communist system, the older generation, that can remember the capitalist society, are all dead. Because of that, the new generation only knows about socialism, equality, freedom and justice. That way, ppl will work for the system. An it will probably work, offcourse, there is always somebody who won't work with the system, but we got that now too, and the capitlist system does "work" in his own way.

[ComradeJunichi]

We change man (or woman). The average man in the communist state will not be the average man in the capitalist state. Socialism...we will create the new man. (This is metaphorical, don't misunderstand me as thinking we will brainwash or genetical enhance, lol).

[BOZG]

Communism/Socialism will not work properly with the mentality that exists today. Humans are not self-centred or greedy by nature but by society. Society is what corrupts people through the education system and by everything around. Educate people to work for humanity rather than themselves and it will become possible. Education is the key to saving humanity and our environment.

[Exploited Class]

500 years is a ridiculous amount of time.
Change is inacted within generations. Socialism existing after capitalism would only need to do so for a few generations to wash out much of that personal self-worth and personal satisfaction boosted from possesions. It would also givethe people as a society a chance to live with benefits from society, such as free healthcare, social security, guaranteed work, less stress enviroment, less advertisment, safety nets in life. That in no way would take 500 years which equates to 4 generations per 100 years, so 20 generations. It would come much easier and faster.

If communism or forms of had not already existed on smaller scales, tribal and the such I might be able to buy into the fact that people are inherently "selfish" but with the extinance of prior civilizations or society not being selfish, I have to believe that, that is in fact not a human trait.

Those prior societies might not have survived the agression tendencies of capitalism and imperialism, but that is because those type of societies are not designed for competition much like what we saw from Communist Russia. In fact those societies become unstable when in competition, especialy competition for survival, as we saw with Stalin.

In no way do I think it impossible or implausible to think that communism in its truest form will not exists in the world. It is the next evolutionary state of economic and governmental and societal existence for mankind. It would be illogical to be much like the roman of the past to think that the current popular society will exist till the end of time. Change is something that humans seem to do constantly.

If you look at early 1900's of America, socialism was big, the numbers large, Eugene Debs even ran for President. It wasn't till the knee jerk reactions and fear tactics used by establishment of the 50's to protect its wealth and powers do we see decline in socialism in America. Elsewhere in the world, were education is better, we see socialism growing.

Frustration on the speed of change or lack of change is inherent on our part. But dropping our beliefs because of the lack of change, would be denying ourselves our true selves. Change can only come from those who are prepared to give education about it and try to make change. It doesn't just happen and needs our help.

Maybe we will get lucky and have another Martin Luther King Jr. to help insitgate change and educate people.

[Iepilei]

the thoughts of people change frequently. as we learn more and the world is more accessible we become more and more liberal. education is where it's at - something I emphasise quite strongly.

In modern america, education on our system is a banned concept. Very few people understand what we advocate - so we mustn't attack or disgrace. We must show what we advocate, and more specifically, how they will benefit. This is what interests people. The more you a nationalist his atrocities the more that nationalist will support those actions.

What we must do is inform, and let presence be felt. The marxists have spent far too much time in hiding in America. The more ignorance we destroy, the closer we come to our democratic way of life.

[Yars]

Quote: from exploitedclass on 9:04 pm on Nov. 1, 2002
Elsewhere in the world, were education is better, we see socialism growing.


Look at Germany's social education system. They rank amongst the highest in the world...why?

It's free! People are given the oppurtunity to choose whether or not they want an associates, bachelors, masters, etc. without having to worry about finances, college loans, and such. Germany's leftist parties have grown substantially within the past few years...and socialism has become a concept people are beginning to better understand and accept...

with an equal oppurtunity education system, lacking the ball and chain applied by U.S college costs...intellectuals grow...and ultimately...socialist support.

[redstar2000]

If I grasp what you're saying correctly, Bop, it seems to me that your real point is that since it looks unlikely that socialism (I prefer the word communism) will win in your lifetime, it will NEVER win.

And, if that's the case, who wants to knock themselves out in a losing cause?

I can see how that would be pretty demoralizing. And there isn't any "automatic" answer to that. I suspect it might end up being a kind of ethical choice; communism is the answer to capitalist injustice and therefore I will fight for it whether it wins in my lifetime or in five centuries or never. I will do the right thing (or try to, at least) BECAUSE it's right...regardless of how things turn out in my lifetime or ever.

There are, of course, perfectly reasonable arguments about the INEVITABILITY of communism--economic, historical, etc. But we should keep in mind that those arguments are ultimately hypothetical...they haven't been proven yet. They could, for all our hopes, be wrong.

Even if that is the case, however, I think it is a life better spent in the struggle for justice than a life spent in spineless servility to a ruling class no better than a bunch of gangsters in hand-tailored suits.

But it's a choice everyone has to make. History does not guarantee outcomes.

[che4rev]

Socalism dosn't work on a large scale- capatalism will always seep in and cause corruption. Where socalism needs to be applied is on the small scale. Socalism will work in the innercity comunal housing, or out in the countryside in an agrarian co-op.

It is just being unrealistic to expect socalism to work on a large scale and not require public school style brain washing or a massive welfare state.

[BOZG]

True socialism will not work on a small scale because of outside influences. People will not allow socialism to exist because they fear that it will become popular and a lot of rich white men stand to lose a lot of money. Socialism will only work on a completely international level where there is no one trying to destroy it.

[CompadreGuerrillera]

we cant change the minds of ppl, unless u want another 1984 shit going on, we just have to make it more apealing to ppl, if we do then ppl will embrace socialism, but however communism doesnt work, it is not practiced because ppl are ppl, however socialism is a compromise if you will, it will have to work on a global scale which is why we will have cells all across the planet spreading our beleif not to mention the revolution!! that is just my thouht

[Iepilei]

Quote: from che4rev on 3:48 pm on Nov. 2, 2002
Socalism dosn't work on a large scale- capatalism will always seep in and cause corruption. Where socalism needs to be applied is on the small scale. Socalism will work in the innercity comunal housing, or out in the countryside in an agrarian co-op.

It is just being unrealistic to expect socalism to work on a large scale and not require public school style brain washing or a massive welfare state.


actually it's just the reverse. capitalism will not work successfully on a large scale, as it breeds too much corruption and the imbalance of nations.

capitalism is by far more successful in small scale, barter systems. this allows small groups of individuals to offer their products in their areas, without international corporations killing them prematurely. mom and pop stores, if you will.

However the larger we get, the less likely that scenario becomes. The only successful way for capitalism to work as a decent system would be by reverting education, and destroying technology. You would have to recess the world to go back to the golden ages of the capitalist system.

[sypher]

Quote: from Yars on 10:03 pm on Nov. 1, 2002

Quote: from exploitedclass on 9:04 pm on Nov. 1, 2002
Elsewhere in the world, were education is better, we see socialism growing.



Look at Germany's social education system. They rank amongst the highest in the world...why?

It's free! People are given the oppurtunity to choose whether or not they want an associates, bachelors, masters, etc. without having to worry about finances, college loans, and such. Germany's leftist parties have grown substantially within the past few years...and socialism has become a concept people are beginning to better understand and accept...

with an equal oppurtunity education system, lacking the ball and chain applied by U.S college costs...intellectuals grow...and ultimately...socialist support.





Do you think Germany is the closest to a TRUE socialist economy than anyone else at the moment?

(Edited by sypher at 5:06 pm on Nov. 3, 2002)

[Che Entifada]

I agree with the one who said that the education has an important affect on the people .. it will be better to be free as in some countries.
About how we can lead the people to the true socialism , its through having an example .. why? most of people accept things through seeing an example they can see and feel , so they would have more disposition to accept it.

[Communist Chris]

I think that capitalism is to blame of this. Capitalism makes evertbody jelous of each other. I think that in a society like the ones today just want to achive more material possesions and money. People are jelous of their neighbors because they have satelite Tv or they have a BMW. I think that this sucks people should be opended mined a accept reality as it is. I also think that people should stop thinking about money and stuff because they never go with you when they die.

[sypher]

In cuba do they express as much greed as they do in the "western countries"?

[Panamarisen]

The greed people may express in Cuba today has a lot to do with the criminal U$ embargo. A couple of decades before, the situation there was very different: average Cubans had to LEARN to live with less so his neighbor got the opportunity to enjoy the same level of welfare.
Che knew -and so taugh the people- that the difficult thing wasn´t doing a revolution or battling in a guerrilla, but CONSTRUCTING the Revolution day after day.

Besides, we all have to remember that to go on and achieve a Socialist or Communist project (not to mention if it´s through a Revolution) there ought to be a really bad situation within the basis of the population, but ALSO, at the same time, a bad situation among the rich capitalistic pigs that got the power at the moment.

A most important thing on the way to positive changes in society is KNOWLEDGE, CONSCIOUSNESS of the reality, and a CRITICAL attitude towards it.

HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE!

[LeninCCCP]

We can make baby steps and sooner or later the workers will realize we dont need leaders to tell us what to do.

[El Che]

Faith is not a part of the equasion, is it?

[kalakbay]

well what really is the problem with socialism? i dont think that it is really that people have to be forced? i am member of amilitant group that has a revolutionary arm. i would like to make it clear that it is nit the cpp-npa. we are what others call rejectionists.
And from our stand point the slow and excruciating path to true socialism is not by means of force, because force is for the weakminded.
What we really need is to educate the people and empower them with the knowledge that they can use to understand the true meaning or communism for that matter.

My friend dont lose faith because if you do you never really believed.

[Exploited Class]

Sometimes I wonder, if I will wake up one day and just say, "What was I thinking? I should want to buy things, own things, I need to work extra hard making somebody else rich. What was I thinking, me be right? How much of an egotist am I to think I was right and 90% of America was wrong?" or I'll just slowly be like that, worry about new cars, look at the latest fashions, worry about house and furniture.

I don't own a gun, because I hate them, but I might buy one so my friends could just shoot me if that ever happens. Because I am no longer me, the advertisments, the corporate propaganda, society's pleasure in greed will have brainwashed me into their machine.

Between being like them (one form of insanity) and to actually become psyochzophrenic, tough choice. I think I choose the latter because then I have a small shot at being happy.

[nz revolution]

The way to combat selfishness is to do what others have suggested by using the progressive tax system in a socialist society, people will work hard, but you also have to be careful because what happened in the motherland is a labour aristocracy formed, where exellent workers (who were given incentives) became the new elite amongst the bureaucrats. it takes many years to reach communism, as Lenin said, maybe a hundred years or more.

But Socialism is inevitable (if Imperialism [the highest stage of capitalism] or facism [exhausted capitalism] doesnt kill us all)

[Fires of History]

Bulls On Parade,

I'm not worried about your faith at all. Here you are asking good questions and actually caring about the answer, or potential answer anyway. Not to mention the fact that you see how materialism puts people in a waking trance somewhere not dead, but surely not alive.

I have the same doubts, but I just remind myself that it's not like capitali$m is working. Well, maybe for the slim few on top maybe.

Humanity has to get to a place of better politics. With the situation now, I don't even want to think about running out of oil, food, water. Instead of working together to fix our problems, a future of capitali$m will ensure war and death to the last drop. And with the mess capitali$m has made already, and the power it's absorbing to wield in the future, it's more important than ever that we act for human rights in this ever-growing McWorld.

And I couldn't agree more that we need more accessible eduction, better education, and more people going. In short, more people actually thinking.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

one of the greatest challenges that we face to start a succesfull socialcountry is to change the egoism in ppl. Ppl are thaugt since they are born to achieve so much as possible weatlh in they country. And if they grow up this attitude will be a really normal thing in their live. This education comes through parents media and school. The media learns you that saddam and fiedel castro are "bastards" but luckely the american "good" guys show up and saddam and castro only want to destroy the world without a clear reason. Parents dont learn much political correct things, cause they are educated the same way. And there is school that mostly follows a sort of nationalistic line and many governments follow besides that a sort of american line.(russians are badguys,americans are good ones.)

So the only way to lett ppl know that it is perfectly normal to share things and that everyone is equale and not only inside the state frontiers. It should be thaught since the birth and the whole world should be drastic changed. Media, the thinking of ppl(wich is more difficult than it seems , cause of the selfsacrifice you will have much more struggle than a captalist systems). I think that one way to have a fast change of the world is to show where captalim leads to. We must shock the world and show through the media images andso about the real face of captalism.Instead of happy children and a perfect community we must show the world that in the captalist system the joy of one leads to the tears of 3 others(staticly). We must show that human joy cant be measured in materialism. But the greatest mistakes of the first communist wave was that they took the freedom speech. The communism became great because the freedom of speech was taken (par example:like in the russia,cuba for the revolution)and if you take that right you cant be sure that someone else comes up for your right. there are some things that must be taken care of by yourself and that u cant trust to others like coming up for your self. So the thing that made the communism great killed it too. The russians revolted because they were not heared and after a few years they did the same things.

We must make it like this: Indiviualism musnt be lost cause of socialism and socialism musnt be lost cause of indiviualism. If you understand what i mean.

[Bulls on parade]

I agree that education will play a major part in creating a socialist world but indifference is everywhere.

Most people my age don't care about the injustices in the world. Most are only concerned with their own lives and not paying attention to the bigger picture.

I will even admit that before the start of this year i didnt know anything about the social injustices in the world and quite frankly i didn't really care about them either. I just figured (like most people still do) that this is the way things are and thats that.

When i try and tell people about socialism or express left wing views most people my age are like "what the fuck is he talking about?"

I worry that people simply don't care about anything exept themselves.