Kim Jong Il

[Deutsche Ideologie]

I can't believe some of you actually support him.

[Warren Peace]

Wow... could you go into a little more detail? :P Maybe talk about bad things he did?

[Deutsche Ideologie]

Is that a joke?

And do you really think China is still Communist?

[dietrite]

Who supports him here?

[lennonist-leninist]

No really seriusley you couldent put anymore detail into this thread. I dont know how many people here support him. But i do think it kinda cool that he is presuring the united states into respecting him. A couple of days ago presidint Bush call Jong Il mister Kim Jong Il. I bet that it killed Bush inside to show any sort of respect for him. And that is proly the only thing i like about Il.

[dietrite]

presidint Bush call Jong Il mister Kim Jong Il

Yeah, once you include that texas "mister" you're basically sucking his dick.

Respectfully.

[TC]

:D I support Kim Jong Il.


Except in his fashion choices. :blink:

[Deutsche Ideologie]

Why would you ever support such a horrible guy?

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Originally posted by Deutsche [email protected] 17 2005, 05:44 PM
Why would you ever support such a horrible guy?
Well, some spartacist types insist Kim's despotic militarist state-monopoly nightmare is a barrier to US Imperialism, and support the DPRK conditionally against the United States and international capitalism.

However, I'm sure you'll find that most of the people on this site, even among conditional supporters of Kimism, think "What a ****!" or "Holy-fuck-poor-North-Koreans . . ."

[Camarada]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 08:00 AM
:D I support Kim Jong Il.



why?

[Camarada]

Originally posted by Deutsche [email protected] 17 2005, 05:08 AM
Is that a joke?

And do you really think China is still Communist?
I don't think China was ever communist....

[Camarada]

fuck kim jong il

he's a fascist murderer

[kingbee]

his dad was ok though. his mum probably was too.

[Warren Peace]

Is that a joke?

In a way. I don't support Kim Jong Il, but I was making fun of how you didn't even bother accusing him of anything. :P


And do you really think China is still Communist?

Oh fuck no! :blink: Communism has never existed.

I support the Anarcho-Communist ideas of Mao Zedong and Jiang Qing. The government that is in power in China now is descendant from the new bourgeois that took power from Mao and triumphed over Mao's Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution against them (the reason the Cultural Revolution collapsed is the Red Gaurds were all teenage kids and a lot of them went crazy, turned on each other, and started burning and looting everything). However, the government in China now is not as bad as the government that betrayed Mao and arrested the Gang of Four. While China isn't great and certainley not Maoist or communist, It is semi-socialist.

People have a high standard of living under the Chinese socialist system, which has given China the fastest growing economy in the world. Mao doubled the Chinese life expectancy when he came to power, and the CPC has increased it even more since then. China was a feudal shithole before the Chinese Revolution. Basically, in the Chinese socialist system, the people elect a parliament (the NPC) to control the industry. However, some parts of China are capitalizing. Corporations like Nike come in, take over all the jobs in a certain area, and force the residents to make shoes for 50 cents a day. This is why there is poverty in China. I have a few other problems with China, but it's not that bad for an authoritarian state, certainley much better than the Stalinist USSR. Think of it as the lesser of two evils.

[Deutsche Ideologie]

Why does China let Nike come in?

[Le People]

I get the discovery times channel, and an individual lived amongst the people and snuck a camera in. Those people in North Korea are starving. I don't care how much Kim tells the U.S to fuck off, but he is an ass hole. Letting his people starve, enslaving them, and killing them. I don't care for him. In matter of fact, I think he should be over thrown by his people. North Koreans unite!

[Hiero]

I support the Anarcho-Trotskyist teachings of Mao Zedong

You don't have a fucking clue.

[Camarada]

Originally posted by Le [email protected] 18 2005, 02:17 AM
I get the discovery times channel, and an individual lived amongst the people and snuck a camera in. Those people in North Korea are starving. I don't care how much Kim tells the U.S to fuck off, but he is an ass hole. Letting his people starve, enslaving them, and killing them. I don't care for him. In matter of fact, I think he should be over thrown by his people. North Koreans unite!
I saw a doc on the History Channel, and it was like what you described.

I agree, there should be a revolution in North Korea against Jong il.

[VoiceOfTheRiot]

While we are on the topic of facist pricks lets talk about why some of you support Castro. I'm a refugee from Cuba, i was born and raised there for 8 years before my family and I were able to escape to the United States, and I can tell you from first hand experience that he is not for the working man. He lied to obtain his position of power and he has no respect for the people of his country.

[Warren Peace]

I support the Anarcho-Trotskyist teachings of Mao Zedong

You don't have a fucking clue.

Shit, and you seemed so enlightened.

Anarcho: Of all the communist ideologies, Maoism is the closest to anarchism. That's because most communist ideologies support a transitional, authoritarian socialist state to reach communism, and anarchists do not. The Maoist position is in between the two. Mao supported a socialist state to transition to communism, but believed it was possible for a new bourgeois to come to power in the transitional socialist state, therfore the revolution should be fought on through the transition. Mao did this with the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution, when the new bourgeois came to power in China.

Trotskyist: It was Trotsky's work that originally inspired Mao to become a communist in the first place, when Mao was a student at the Peking University Library. Maoism and Trotskyism have a lot in common.

[OleMarxco]

....Despite Maoism was derived from Stalinism, the most horrid deri-vation of Leninism ever-done? I can't believe I'm hearin' this frem a fellow leftie ;)

[Camarada]

Mao was a fucking tyrant, he would have killed Trotsky if he had the chance...

[Warren Peace]

....Despite Maoism was derived from Stalinism, the most horrid deri-vation of Leninism ever-done? I can't believe I'm hearin' this frem a fellow leftie

Comrade, Maoism is not derived from Stalinism, I'm getting sick of explaining this so many times. People hear about the China-USSR alliance before the Sino-Soviet split, and they assume Maoism is the same as Stalinism.


Mao was a fucking tyrant, he would have killed Trotsky if he had the chance...

Let me point out some of the hypocrisies of the anti-Maoists on this board:

-Again, comrades, Mao was inspired by Trotsky. Trotsky is why Mao became a communist in the first place. Mao was not, ideologically, a Stalinist, and would not have killed Trotsky.

-You claim Mao is an authoritarian tryant, yet he was more anarchist that Trotsky, or even Lenin, for that matter. If you read Mao's book, On Guerilla Warfare, you'll see that while Mao has anarchist leanings, he quotes Lenin as saying that anarchism is "evil".

-You claim Stalinism=Maoism, yet Che opposed Stalin and admired Mao (as do I). I don't understand why more people don't take Che's position. Instead, I find myself battling both Stalinists who criticize me for being too anarchist, and anarchists who criticize me fore being too Maoist.

-Castro was allied with Stalin because he needed an ally for protection against the US. Mao was allied with Stalin because the CPC was already allied with Stalin when Mao came to power in it; Sun Yat-sen had made an alliance with the USSR earlier, to support the United Front. Mao would be an idiot to give up that advantage. Why is Catsro's alliance okay and Mao's not? Mao turned against the USSR (after the Sino-Soviet split) sooner than Catsro (who waited until the USSR collapsed).

As for the atrocities attributed to Mao:

The Great Leap Forward: Mao redirected some production effort from food to steel. People accuse him of millions of deaths by starvation during the Great Leap Forward, but Mao was just trying to surpass the United States, he has no way of knowing it would by an economic disaster. In fact, most of the deaths during the Great Leap Forward were caused by weather and famine in China.

The Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution: Mao and Jiang Qing lead a massive upsurge of Red Gaurds against the state capitalist government that had politically taken power from Mao and turned on Maoism after Mao liberated China in his Chinese Revolution. The Cultural Revolution went well at first. The Red Gaurds were radical youth (middle school and high school age). But because they were kids, many lost loyalty to Mao and turned on each other, creating mass chaos. The burned and looted randomly. The deaths caused by the Cultural Revolution were chaos that Mao had no control over, not some power-mad purge of opponets.

[Warren Peace]

Sorry, I just realized I forgot to awnser a comrade's question.


Why does China let Nike come in?

I think China has good intentions. The Chinese government thinks that if they welcome foreign corporations, it will provide jobs for the people. Technically it does provide jobs, but only after taking over all the old, good jobs and replacing them with shity jobs. Really, this limited capitalization doesn't help the people, it just erases socialism and spreads poverty.

[Hiero]

I can't be bothered going through your post and picking out your numerous mistakes, i have given a link to a Maoist forum in PM you can correct yourself.

What i will do is correct some historical facts.


Castro was allied with Stalin because he needed an ally for protection against the US.

Wrong. Stalin died in 1953, the Cuban Revolution was in 1959. Castro allied with Krushchevs Soviet Union, a revisionist USSR that both Mao and Che criticised.


yet Che opposed Stalin and admired Mao

Che admired Stalin to. There are some cases in Che's writings where he in a wierd way shows he admires Stalin. Like signing his name Stalin, or making a pledge to Stalin.

[dietrite]

I support the Anarcho-Trotskyist teachings of Mao Zedong

Dude...


Anarcho: Of all the communist ideologies, Maoism is the closest to anarchism. That's because most communist ideologies support a transitional, authoritarian socialist state to reach communism, and anarchists do not. The Maoist position is in between the two. Mao supported a socialist state to transition to communism, but believed it was possible for a new bourgeois to come to power in the transitional socialist state, therfore the revolution should be fought on through the transition. Mao did this with the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution, when the new bourgeois came to power in China

He also believed in explicit centralization, anarchist.


Trotskyist: It was Trotsky's work that originally inspired Mao to become a communist in the first place, when Mao was a student at the Peking University Library. Maoism and Trotskyism have a lot in common.

Read "On Stalin" by Mao.

[dietrite]

Mao was a fucking tyrant, he would have killed Trotsky if he had the chance...

We can only hope.

And Revolt Now!, please be quiet, you are making the board look bad.

[Warren Peace]

And Revolt Now!, please be quiet, you are making the board look bad.

I make the board look bad by being open minded and linking anarchism, Maoism, and Trotskyism, and you don't make the board look bad by being a dogmatic Stalinist?


Read "On Stalin" by Mao.

Again, Mao was allied with Stalin, that doesn't change the fact that his ideology was inspired by Trotsky's.


Instead, I find myself battling both Stalinists who criticize me for being too anarchist, and anarchists who criticize me fore being too Maoist.

[Donnie]

Anyway, I have no fascination with Kim Jong IL, Stalin, Mao or Castro. Oh and I can't believe a minority of people here approve of such authoritarian state's.

At the end of the day they all fucked things up and I think we can draw a conclusion from it all, they all fucked up on different stages of the "Dictatorship of the Proletariat".

I think there needs to be a revolution in both China and North Korea that embraces libertarian elements.

[Ownthink]

^ I for one totally agree with what was said here by Donnie. It's amazing people can look up to DICTATORS with no regard for human life.

[codyvo]

I want to know why Castro is included in a group with Stalin, Mao and Kim. They are mass murderers. He has brought Cuba from a totalitarian dictatorship to a socialist dictatorship, and he isn't an evil murderous dictator he simply doesn't allow elections and for good reason. I for one am a huge supporter of Castro and I probably will always be.

[Donnie]

Well for one as you said Socialist "Dictatorship". Socialism cannot be given it has to be taken by the working mass's. We need full workers control and let the workers take charge of their own destiny instead of some elite dictatorship.

[spartafc]

I support the Anarcho-Trotskyist teachings of Mao Zedong

he-larious.

[dietrite]

I make the board look bad by being open minded and linking anarchism, Maoism, and Trotskyism, and you don't make the board look bad by being a dogmatic Stalinist?

Stalinist?

Right.

And yes, you do.


Again, Mao was allied with Stalin, that doesn't change the fact that his ideology was inspired by Trotsky's.

Again, you're a fucking idiot.


he-larious.

Indeed. Indeed.

[VoiceOfTheRiot]

WE DON'T NEED ANY DICTATORSHIP. Don't any of you all understand that doesn't work anywhere? give me one example of a dictatorship that has worked completely. You won't be able to, communism doesn't work. It starts out well enough but then the people will begin to think why am i having to work so hard to help out everyone eles? And then we are back to where we started. Castro lied... thats the problem. He promised us a workers paradise but instead we got jack shit.

[VoiceOfTheRiot]

I want to know, honestly how many of you have experienced a dictatorship of any kind? Have any of you had to flee from the country that you were born and raised in? B/c that is the hardest thing i've ever had to do and i don't think any of you appreciate the fact that you have it so easy.

[LSD]

Have any of you had to flee from the country that you were born and raised in?

Why did you have to flee?

Remember that the vast majority of Cubans did not flee after the revolution, indeed the vast majority were greatly bennefitted by the ouster of that shitbag Batista. It was mainly those who had something to lose in that ouster who found themselves driven to flee.

I truly hope that doesn't describe your family! :o


WE DON'T NEED ANY DICTATORSHIP.

Absolutely.


You won't be able to, communism doesn't work

Communism isn't a dictatorship, it's the diametric opposite of a dictatorship. A classless, stateless society is by definition leader-less.


It starts out well enough but then the people will begin to think why am i having to work so hard to help out everyone eles?

Maybe because they're also working to help you?

...or maybe because you actualy enjoy your work?

...or maybe because you're a human being and care about other people?


Castro lied... thats the problem. He promised us a workers paradise but instead we got jack shit.

"Jack shit"!? :blink:

So, you'd rather live under Batista than Castro?

I'm starting to think that my earlier speculations about your family may have been correct. :(

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by Revolt Now!@Jul 18 2005, 08:12 PM

-You claim Mao is an authoritarian tryant, yet he was more anarchist that Trotsky, or even Lenin, for that matter. If you read Mao's book, On Guerilla Warfare, you'll see that while Mao has anarchist leanings, he quotes Lenin as saying that anarchism is "evil".


none of them were anarchist. and mao is not any closer. how the hell can you say he had anarchist leanings while he held power over everyone.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by Revolt Now!@Jul 18 2005, 09:45 PM
Sorry, I just realized I forgot to awnser a comrade's question.


Why does China let Nike come in?

I think China has good intentions. The Chinese government thinks that if they welcome foreign corporations, it will provide jobs for the people. Technically it does provide jobs, but only after taking over all the old, good jobs and replacing them with shity jobs. Really, this limited capitalization doesn't help the people, it just erases socialism and spreads poverty.
yes china has good intentions to let their people work for shit wages in horrible conditions :lol: they are capitalist, they want money.

[Camarada]

I don't know the real situation in Cuba vs. what the media says. So I don't know if Castro really a tyrant or a great guy.

there are elections to the assemblies though, aren't there?

what position does Fidel have (President?) and how much power is that position?

I'm asking these questions here, because I don't trust some sources of anti-Cuban exiles or neo-conservative websites.

[Camarada]

Originally posted by nate+Jul 20 2005, 04:45 AM--> (nate @ Jul 20 2005, 04:45 AM)
Revolt Now!@Jul 18 2005, 09:45 PM
Sorry, I just realized I forgot to awnser a comrade's question.


Why does China let Nike come in?

I think China has good intentions. The Chinese government thinks that if they welcome foreign corporations, it will provide jobs for the people. Technically it does provide jobs, but only after taking over all the old, good jobs and replacing them with shity jobs. Really, this limited capitalization doesn't help the people, it just erases socialism and spreads poverty.
yes china has good intentions to let their people work for shit wages in horrible conditions :lol: they are capitalist, they want money. [/b]
DITTO!

It is ridiculous this guy is defending the capitalism of China. Workers in China get paid the some of the worst wages. the Maoists don't care about the workers! All they want is POWER MONEY AND MORE POWER.

[red_orchestra]

Well, well,

Sounds like we have several psuedo-lefties posting here who are very confused.

Maoism is an ideology that spawned from Leninist and Trotskyist doctrine. It was NOT inspired by Stalin, that much is clear.

North Korea: what is its political ideology? It isn't Maoist based, thats one thing for sure. It has the halmarks of Stalinism in the sense that the countries wealth has been primarily spent on the production of arms at the expense of the people. Anyone else care to share their views on North korea? Kim Jong Il has also created a state religion which bring Nationalism and pride to the people. odd.... hummm

[dietrite]

Castro lied... thats the problem. He promised us a workers paradise but instead we got jack shit.

Yeah! Fuck Cuba!

Cocksucker.

[QUOTE]

[Camarada]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2005, 05:09 AM
Well, well,

Sounds like we have several psuedo-lefties posting here who are very confused.

Maoism is an ideology that spawned from Leninist and Trotskyist doctrine. It was NOT inspired by Stalin, that much is clear.

North Korea: what is its political ideology? It isn't Maoist based, thats one thing for sure. It has the halmarks of Stalinism in the sense that the countries wealth has been primarily spent on the production of arms at the expense of the people. Anyone else care to share their views on North korea? Kim Jong Il has also created a state religion which bring Nationalism and pride to the people. odd.... hummm
I don't think North Korea is communist at all, I think it's FASCIST.

Name some things that qualify North Korea as a communist nation. If that fails, try to name some things that qualify it as a left-wing nation. If that fails, I think it's safe to say North Korea is FASCIST

[Camarada]

you know why many things say "MADE IN CHINA" because capitalist corporations take their factories over there because China HAS NO MINIMUM WAGE. Thus, workers in China get paid UNBELIEVABLY low wages.

[Hiero]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2005, 04:09 PM
Maoism is an ideology that spawned from Leninist and Trotskyist doctrine. It was NOT inspired by Stalin, that much is clear.


It did not spawn from Trotsky. Mao followed on from Stalin except he realised the need for culture revolution. There is no indication of Mao criticisng Stalin like Trotsky did.

Why do you think Maoist have pictures like this. You wont find one knowledgable Maoist who supports Trotsky and not Stalin.

http://www.worldtrek.org/odyssey/asia/072900/images/communists_bg.jpg

That is a good website that you can learn about Maoism from. Don't spam it though, because they kick spammers, trots, anarchist, right wingers quick.
http://marxleninmao.proboards43.com/

[dietrite]

Maoism is an ideology that spawned from Leninist and Trotskyist doctrine. It was NOT inspired by Stalin, that much is clear.

Trotskyism is not an inspiration of Maoism, you jackass. Leninism, yes, obviously. Trotskyism is a creation of Trotsky, which the party overwhelmingly voted DOWN.

Mao a great many things from Stalin, Trotsky is a fucking hallmark of "pseduolefties" like yourself.


North Korea...look to the actual writings of Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il.

[VoiceOfTheRiot]

Ha ha thats some tough talk over the internet dietriet. Don't smart of to me about things you don't understand big guy.

[VoiceOfTheRiot]

Man enough spelling errors in my last reply, jeez.

[Che1990]

Originally posted by Revolt Now!@Jul 19 2005, 12:12 AM

....Despite Maoism was derived from Stalinism, the most horrid deri-vation of Leninism ever-done? I can't believe I'm hearin' this frem a fellow leftie

Comrade, Maoism is not derived from Stalinism, I'm getting sick of explaining this so many times. People hear about the China-USSR alliance before the Sino-Soviet split, and they assume Maoism is the same as Stalinism.
If I have to say this quote on these forums one more time I'm gonna slit my wrists. MAOISM IS STALINISM!!!!!!!!!!

And when the cultural revolution fucked up he could have changed things back to how they were before instead of saying "Everything's cool" and killing anyone who said different.

[dietrite]

Ha ha thats some tough talk over the internet dietriet. Don't smart of to me about things you don't understand big guy.

Can you disprove any of my post's comments?

[Hiero]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2005, 05:25 AM
Ha ha thats some tough talk over the internet dietriet. Don't smart of to me about things you don't understand big guy.
It is you who does not have a clue.

What you read a a few pages of the little red book, think Trotsky is cool because he opposed Stalin, you think Mao is trendy?

[red_orchestra]

Hehe, well, i'll laugh at myself. I've made a big glitch in my postings...guys. Hands up I surrender.
...interesting to note...some of Trotskys theories were adopted by Mao but your right abviously Stalin and Lennin are the major contributing factors.

Dietrite, not trying to offend. Thanks for your quick and swift response :) I DO NOT KNOW EVERYTHING.

humble humble..

[Hiero]

Its actualyl a huge contradiction.

Trotsky believed that Socialism was not possible in backward countries because it could not rely on the peasantry.

Mao living in a different time realised the changing nature of Imperialism meant that the 3rd world are going to have revolution first, based on the new peasant class(not like the peasants of Marx's time in developed countries).

Stalin didn't advance on Lenin, that was his problem. But Mao believed he followed on from Lenin. So Mao made new contributions of his time.

[Warren Peace]

Obviously my attempt to disassociate Maoism from Stalinism failed, I can see when I'm defeated. I accept that Stalinism contributed to Maoism, though Maoism still does have at least some inspiration in Trotskyism and anarchism.

While Mao may have supported Stalin, my opinion stands that Mao was a good leader and communists should be more critical of Stalin.


That is a good website that you can learn about Maoism from. Don't spam it though, because they kick spammers, trots, anarchist, right wingers quick.

I joined and openly said I have anarchist leanings, and I haven't been kicked off. :P


It is ridiculous this guy is defending the capitalism of China. Workers in China get paid the some of the worst wages. the Maoists don't care about the workers! All they want is POWER MONEY AND MORE POWER.

I was being critical of China, not defending their mistakes. And any good Maoist can tell you that China today is not Maoist!

[VoiceOfTheRiot]

You want to know why i wouldn't want to work my ass off for someone eles...b/c that isn't human nature. Yes i care about my fellow people but how many of you have ever experienced a communist society? None of you i'll bet, so let me tell you, you get to a point where you're working like crazy and then someone finnaly says "man this is rediculous" and just stops working or no as hard, then its a domino effect. And the reason i fled? Well i'm not sure how much history you all know, but the scary thing was, and alot of families and children fled b/c of this, was that castro had such strong ties w/ communism that we were afraid that he would send the Cuban children to other communist countries. With communism family doesn't exsist. It's all about the state, that comes first, and also they are atheist, and in case any of you didn't know Cuban's are hardly atheist...the catholic religion is the most dominate religion there, so that also pissed us off a bit.

[dietrite]

VoiceofTheRiot, your theories of human nature are childish and probably you are the illegitimate child of a horse and a pigfather.

[angus_mor]

Kim Jong Il is a man to be despised, overthrown, and hung from the highest tree. He commits crimes against humanity everyday, thousands are sent to starve and die in his gulags for being accused of minor sedition. The rest are starving and freezing anyways because they're economy sucks, and Kim keeps the majority of the money for his own fat ass and his military machine. I dont see him starving, do you?! He's the worst of his kind, a wolf in sheeps' clothing, a HYPOCRITE!!!

[KC]

Most North Koreans don't know anything of the outside world. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't know it existed. If somebody snuck into the country with proof of the outside world I'm sure revolution would spread like wildfire. But the country's so closed down that it's almost impossible.

[LSD]

You want to know why i wouldn't want to work my ass off for someone eles...b/c that isn't human nature.

And what, exactly is "human nature"?

Can you define it, categorize it, detail it?

In 6000 years of human civilization no one has been able to demonstrate that such a thing exists, but if you have disovered it, please tell us; we're all eager to read it, and I'm sure the Nobel committee is as well!


Yes i care about my fellow people but how many of you have ever experienced a communist society?

Since no communist society has ever existed, that question answeres itself.


And the reason i fled? Well i'm not sure how much history you all know, but the scary thing was, and alot of families and children fled b/c of this, was that castro had such strong ties w/ communism that we were afraid that he would send the Cuban children to other communist countries.

:rolleyes:

That is one of the most monumentally stupid things that I have ever read.

Cuba was like 5000 miles away from any other "socialist" country at the time. It is beyond insanity to imagine that anyone even considered the mass deportation of children across such a distance in 1959!

It that's the reason your parents gave you for why they fled, you need to have a little talk with them.


With communism family doesn't exsist. It's all about the state, that comes first

I fear you are grossly misinformed on the nature of communism. Communism is by definition a stateless society.


and also they are atheist, and in case any of you didn't know Cuban's are hardly atheist...the catholic religion is the most dominate religion there, so that also pissed us off a bit.

Yes, I would imagine it would. But even though, as you say, Catholicism is the "most dominate" (sic) religion, you notice that most Cubas both did not flee and actually welcomed the revolution.

So, again, I ask why (and also how) did you and your family leave so eagerly?

What exactly was it that so worried you about the revolution? Was it really the "atheistic hoards" or was it perhaps the hoardes of people eager to take back the land that had been stolen from them.

Again, I think that you need to have a serious talk with your parents. You may not like what you find. :(

[TC]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2005, 03:01 AM
Most North Koreans don't know anything of the outside world. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't know it existed. If somebody snuck into the country with proof of the outside world I'm sure revolution would spread like wildfire. But the country's so closed down that it's almost impossible.
Lol. North Korean's can travel abroad freely like any other coutry, except of course to countries that place travel restrictions on the DPRK (south Korea) and possibly the countries threatening their existance (the USA). Many north Korean's travel in China for instance.


North Korea is one of the few countries where you can basically jsut make any shit up about it and people will buy it.


Did you hear that Kim Jong Il has a harem of 101 catholic school boys? Did you know that no one actually lives in Pyongyang, they just bus some villagers in to walk around in a 1000 meter perimeter around western tourists and journalists. Did you know that in North Korea the police shoot anyone on sight who isn't wearing a Kim Jong Il badge??? I heard that sneezing on Kim Jong Il's birthday results in deportation to the gulags!

Imagine if someone made such baseless propagandistic assertions of any other country, how believable would it be? But of course with the DPRK you can basically just make things up and, if repeated enough times people just assume its true even if its only hearsay.

The bottom line is that there is no evidence for any human rights violations, any *current* starvation (there were food shortages in the 90s), any kindof despotism. I would be shocked to see anyone site anything credible (and the BBC repeating unsourced rumors doesn't count).

There is ample evidence for north Korean "weapons of mass destruction" though :-p.

[Hiero]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2005, 02:01 PM
Most North Koreans don't know anything of the outside world. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't know it existed. If somebody snuck into the country with proof of the outside world I'm sure revolution would spread like wildfire. But the country's so closed down that it's almost impossible.
How do you know what they teach at school?
You are just being irrational and assuming the worst of the country. They would most likely teach about the world and world history.

One documentory that was taking on a guide attended some procession, there were many young children there from primary school. The people were allowed to speak freely with them and when they asked the children about other countries they were quite aware of the outside world. They even went on to explain about US foriegn policy towards Korea and how it was aimed at harming the country.

If you truely believe that North Koreans are not educated about the outside world, then it is you who is blind to the outside world by US propaganda.

[jvs]

hiero has a very valid point. the US bombard the world with propaganda about North Korea. the fact that it is so closed to the world means that the US can say anything it wants about it. if North Korea came out with the truth, does anyone honestly believe US citizens would believe it after what they've been told by their own government. there may be poverty or famine, but there is famine in ethiopia, the sudan, mongolia and many other countries. its strange how North Korea is the only country where the famine is caused by the evilness of its leader... what a coincidence, North Korea is the only country with a famine which is voices its opposition to US foreign policy.

as to kim jong il.... i do agree he commits human rights violations, and he's a bad leader, but george bush and the capitalist US are worse. and as he's the only opposition to the US with nuclear weapons, perhaps we shouldnt hang him from the highest tree, at least until a communist opponant of the US with a nuclear arsenal comes along.

[KC]

The Tears Of My Soul (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0688128335/qid=1122013920/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-1567735-9405512?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)

Read it.

[Hiero]

Just for the update, the famine in North Korea is over, they are rebuilding.

[KC]

Source please?

[Super Mario Conspiracy]

Since I have the ultimate book of "Quotations from Chairman Mao Tse-Tung", bought in China, maybe there can be some enlightement about Mao:

The force at the core leading our cause forward is the Chinese Communist Party. The theoretical basis guiding our thinking is Marxism-Leninism.
-Page 1.

If there is to be revolution, there must be a revolutionary party. Without a revolutionary party, without a party built on the Marxist-Leninist revolutionary style, it is impossible to lead the working class and the broad masses of the people in defeating imperialism and its running dogs.
-Pages 1 and 2.

The Chinese Communist Party is the core of leadership of the whole Chinese people. Without this core, the cause of socialism cannot be victorious.
-Page 2

I just don't think Mao was an anarchist at all...

[Warren Peace]

I just don't think Mao was an anarchist at all...

Maybe not very much, but he was more of an anarchist than and other great socialist leader (Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin, ect).

[Super Mario Conspiracy]

One documentory that was taking on a guide attended some procession, there were many young children there from primary school.

Who made the documentary, and what is the name of the documentary?


The people were allowed to speak freely with them and when they asked the children about other countries they were quite aware of the outside world.

Of course. The children doesn't know anything else than what they have been thought at school. If you teach a child about nazism, and nazism only, of course that child will speak freely about anything from a nazi perspective.


They even went on to explain about US foriegn policy towards Korea and how it was aimed at harming the country.

And people in the DPRK are not free to say that the US is aimed at hurting the DPRK?


if North Korea came out with the truth, does anyone honestly believe US citizens would believe it after what they've been told by their own government.

There is a difference. If a totalitarian state would go and speak up what it was doing, and that all the things this state said were good things, would you believe it? The sole fact that North Korea is a totalitarian state - doesn't it at least give rise to some suspicion about what they're saying?

Would North Korea really say that they imprisoned 10000 people without any juridicial process, or that they executed 5000 in one day?


there may be poverty or famine, but there is famine in ethiopia, the sudan, mongolia and many other countries.

True and false. True because you're right: famine could basically happen anywhere on Earth, and the risk has been hightened now with the greenhouse effect (although the risk is still pretty low).

False because North Korea is closed to the outside world - which is their policy (juche). They are semi-opened to South Korea and China, but they're spending much on their military, instead of agricultural projects, which, in North Korea's case is important.


its strange how North Korea is the only country where the famine is caused by the evilness of its leader...

During Kim Jong Il's rule in the mid to late 1990s, the country's economy declined significantly, and food shortages developed in many areas. According to aid groups, a significant but unknown number of people in rural areas starved to death due to famine, exacerbated by a collapse in the food distribution system. Large numbers of North Koreans illegally entered the People's Republic of China in search of food, and there were also stories of cannibalism.

The regime continues to focus on heavy military industry at the expense of agriculture.

A series of natural disasters, rampant corruption, and the collapse of the Soviet bloc have all caused the economy to stagnate. The agricultural outlook is terrible and food products are deliberately diverted away from citizens and into the military. The combined effects of a reclusive regime, serious fertilizer shortages, successive natural disasters, and structural constraints — such as little arable land and a short growing season — have reduced staple grain output to more than 1 million tons less than what the country needs to meet even minimum international requirements.

North Korea previously received a flow of international food and fuel aid from the People's Republic of China and the United States in exchange for promises not to develop nuclear weapons. In June 2005, the United States announced that it would give 50,000 metric tons of food aid to North Korea. The United States gave North Korea 50,000 tons in 2004 and 100,000 tons in 2003.

However, there is substantial evidence that the aid is not getting to those who need it. The Discovery Times channel documentary "Children of the Secret State" showed hidden camera footage from inside North Korea where clearly marked US food aid was being sold openly in front of North Korean police while malnourished orphans were ignored as they picked for scraps off of the ground nearby.


as to kim jong il.... i do agree he commits human rights violations, and he's a bad leader, but george bush and the capitalist US are worse.

But this doesn't mean that we must choose Kim Jong Il's side or George Bush's. Allying, even supporting this tyrant, is not why I became a communist. If we stand up for Kim Jong Il, then we can just as well stand up for Adolph Hitler - hey, he also opposed the US! Why not? As long as it is bad for the US.... right?


and as he's the only opposition to the US with nuclear weapons, perhaps we shouldnt hang him from the highest tree,

We don't know if North Korea has nuclear weapons. And even if they did, what good would that do to any other nation that adopts a true socialist system? Do you really think the North Korean government will stick out it's neck to save, let alone stand up for another such government?

Juche teaches them self-reliance. Whatever happens in another country isn't their problem. That is their policy.


at least until a communist opponant of the US with a nuclear arsenal comes along.

Sorry to kill your dream:

Recently, in July 2002, North Korea started running an experiment with capitalism in the Kaesŏng Industrial Region.



All links from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_korea

[TC]

I just don't think Mao was an anarchist at all...

No one is accusing Mao of being an anarchist, simply noting similarities on his and his more radical associate's views on transition to fully communist society.




Sorry to kill your dream:

Recently, in July 2002, North Korea started running an experiment with capitalism in the Kaesŏng Industrial Region.




Oh wow, a limited free market in one *tiny city* sure does "kill the dream." Now i guess we all have to stop supporting the DPRK because while the overwhelming vast majority including all major population centers lives under socialism, a tiny little boarder city has a limited free market.

That makes about as much sense as telling a libertarian who claims the United States is capitalist "sorry to kill your dream: Recently, in july 2002, hippies in vermont started running an experiment with socialism in their cute little commune!!!"

Would that make the US a socialist state? Uh, no. So why would the same logic work for the DPRK?



All links from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_korea

Wikipedia is the *definition* of 'knowlege' based on rumor, anyone can write to it. As you can see if you click on the article the factuality of it is in dispute. I bet if i wrote "Kim Jong Il is widely reported in the south Korean news to have the largest collection of Russian language DVD's in the world" (which i just made up) it wouldn't get edited out.

[Super Mario Conspiracy]

Oh wow, a limited free market in one *tiny city* sure does "kill the dream."

It could very well do this. You have to agree that Kim Jong Il is gaining age, and sooner or later, he will die. Most likely, North Korea will be turned into another Vietnam/China/Laos state. The rulers that comes after him will make sure of it.


Now i guess we all have to stop supporting the DPRK

Supporting the DPRK? Could just as well support the Third Reich for that matter, then.


because while the overwhelming vast majority including all major population centers lives under socialism,

Nopes, not socialism. They live under Juche. There is a difference.


a tiny little boarder city has a limited free market.

And it doesn't even give rise to some questions? This so called "socialist" country even conciders something like capitalism? And since they apparently fare so well under "socialism", why do they need something like capitalism in the first place?


That makes about as much sense as telling a libertarian who claims the United States is capitalist "sorry to kill your dream: Recently, in july 2002, hippies in vermont started running an experiment with socialism in their cute little commune!!!"

You fail to see the differences. The North Korean government did this, not some civilian group. The government - the sole, almighty Korean Worker's Party, who is allseeing, allhearing, knows everything in every moment of time - considers this. Kim Jong Il authorized this experiment!

This would be equal to the Republican Party experimenting with socialism in a small area in the US. See the picture?


Would that make the US a socialist state? Uh, no. So why would the same logic work for the DPRK?

So you wouldn't even ask yourself about why the US Republican Party started a socialist experiment? Why are they interested in socialism, if their clear party program is that capitalism and conservative views are the way?

WHY would they try something they are opposed to???


Wikipedia is the *definition* of 'knowlege' based on rumor, anyone can write to it.

Until it gets verifyed and stays or gets erased. But I see where this is going. Simple: you don't trust any source that opposes, or writes negative things about North Korea, am I right?

Then what would you believe? If I quoted a book from a well-known author who wrote about the autrocities in North Korea? No, of course not, since this author makes money on his work, thus he is a capitalist, thus he is not honest, and he is prone to US propaganda.

Maybe everything ever written about North Korea is false? Maybe North Korea doesn't even exist? Maybe it's like al-Quaeda, a fictional phantom menace, created by US propaganda to scare the public?

To what extent are you willing to deny the facts about North Korea?


I bet if i wrote "Kim Jong Il is widely reported in the south Korean news to have the largest collection of Russian language DVD's in the world" (which i just made up) it wouldn't get edited out.

Sure, try it out.

Ironically as it is, Kim Jong Il is a big movie-fan, so I wouldn't be surprized if what you said coincidentally was true. However, Wikipedia isn't some open forum to write whatever you like on, and think that it will stay there. It will be erased if it is false, or if it has not been documented.

(Wikipedia does, in fact, have moderators. I know because I have tried some things, like copying from one side and pasting it into Wikipedia - believe it or not, they found the source.)

[Pink Moon]

I think Jong Il would go crazy if his people tried to overthrow him.
The man obviously has some power.

[Hiero]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 01:42 AM
Source please?
North Korea’s GDP Grows 2.2% in 2004

By Kim Yon-se Staff Reporter
North Korea’s gross domestic product (GDP) grew 2.2 percent year-on-year in 2004, rising for the sixth consecutive year, boosted by stronger output in agriculture and mining sectors.

Gross national income (GNI), the nation’s purchasing power, grew to $20.8 billion last year from $18.4 billion the previous year, the Bank of Korea said yesterday. In comparison, the reclusive country’s GDP grew 1.8 percent in 2003.

North Korea does not release official economic data. The BOK’s estimates, based on various information gathered from the intelligence agency and other North Korea-related organizations, are viewed as the most reliable statistics.

The economic size of North Korea is smaller than that of Inchon, the fourth largest city of South Korea. The port city’s GNI reached about $30 billion in 2004. It is similar to that of Taegu and several African nations, such as Zimbabwe and Cameroon.

The communist country’s GNI is equivalent to around 3 percent of South Korea’s GNI of $680.1 billion in 2004.

The income gap between the two Koreas continued to widen over the past 15 years.

North Korea’s per-capita GNI was estimated at $914, equivalent to 6.4 percent of South Korea’s $14,162.

``An average North Korean’s annul income is smaller than an average South Korean’s monthly earning,’’ a BOK official said.

North Korea’s per-capita GNI, which stood at $573 in 1998 has been rising again in recent years.

The BOK expects the North’s per-capita GNI to breach the $1,000-mark this year for the first time in 10 years.

The North’s external trading is equal to 0.64 percent of South Korea’s exports and imports last year.

Its trade rose 19.7 percent from a year ago to $2.86 billion in 2004, but it was dwarfed by South Korea's $478.3 billion.

Exports jumped 30.8 percent to $1.02 billion on a rise in shipments of coal, iron ore and other raw materials, with imports gaining 14.3 percent to $1.84 billion.

The country’s agricultural, forestry and fisheries industry grew 4.1 percent year-on-year in 2004, with the mining sector expanding 2.5 percent.

Growth of the manufacturing sector slowed to 0.4 percent from 2.6 percent in 2003, while the construction industry gained a mere 0.4 percent.

Its population was 22.7 million at the end of 2004, compared with the South’s 48.1 million.

hhttp://times.hankooki.com/lpage/biz/200505...21340311910.htm ://http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/biz...1340311910.htm (http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/biz/200505...21340311910.htm)

So we can see that it is foolish to believe that Kim Jong Il purposely starves his people. The most logical conclusion is that North Korea had floods followed by droughts in the 1990's. Korea being split results in the North not having access to the more fertile argiculture in the south. So of course people were going to starve.

We can see that DPRK is making gains and will pull themeselves out of the slumps in the 90's.

[TC]

It could very well do this. You have to agree that Kim Jong Il is gaining age, and sooner or later, he will die. Most likely, North Korea will be turned into another Vietnam/China/Laos state. The rulers that comes after him will make sure of it.


That makes no sense. Kim Jong Il is not a first generation revolutionary leader the way Fidel Castro is. When he dies (or, for that matter when he becomes unpopular or simply too old) he'll just be replaced with someone else whose politically viable in the DPRK. His powers and responsibilities are actually quiet limited, having neither the powers/responsibilities of a head of state or a head of government (positions filled by other people) so he's really not indespensible.



Supporting the DPRK? Could just as well support the Third Reich for that matter, then.


thats a pretty meaningless hyperbole.



Nopes, not socialism. They live under Juche. There is a difference.


Juche is an ideology, not an economic or political system...the ideology espouses (among other things) a *socialist* economic and political system. What you said makes about as much sense as saying "The United States doesn't live under capitalism or imperialism, it lives under neo-conservatism."



This so called "socialist" country even conciders something like capitalism? And since they apparently fare so well under "socialism", why do they need something like capitalism in the first place?



Well, i, like most communists (http://www.chinatoday.com/org/cpc/), don't think that limited market socialism, if used to subsidize state and collective industry, is incompatible with socialism or marxism-leninism. They need something like 'capitalism' to bring in new capital, which makes a profit for the state, which the state then uses to build it's public sector.

This is percisely what Cuba did in the 90's by opening up capitalist style tourist sectors and creating a dollar economy, which provided the money need for the development and rebuilding of the Cuban collective economy. After the economy was back to where they wanted it, the Cubans shut down the private buisnesses and ended the use of dollars.

The DPRK is just doing the same thing. The area around Kaesŏng is one of the places open to south Korean tourists. The capitalist development in it is no more then a single industrial park (not Kaesong itself).



So you wouldn't even ask yourself about why the US Republican Party started a socialist experiment? Why are they interested in socialism, if their clear party program is that capitalism and conservative views are the way?

The Republican and Democratic parties have started socialist experiments. They're called Social Security, welfare, medicare, progressive income tax, limited hours in the work day, union rights, ect. All of these are things were advocated by socialists first, were called socialist at the time they were introudced, and were not part capitalism as it was origionally practiced during the industrial revolution.



WHY would they try something they are opposed to???


Because it would risk a workers uprising otherwise...capitalism with some 'socialist experiments' is much more stable then pure capitalism...in fact the pure capitalism of the 19th and first half of the 20th century is the environment that Communist parties do the best in. So, the capitalists wont practice it because, even though its ideal, it poses too great a risk to losing everything.

Likewise, the DPRK needs money, to say, fund its massive army and nuclear program, to protect itself from an otherwise inevitable American invasion. In the current economic reality given the DPRK's natural resources (which are to say the least limited) some kindof outside capital is very useful for this. So, like the Republicans, they trade some things for the preservation of their system as a whole, to reduce the risk of losing everything.




To what extent are you willing to deny the facts about North Korea?


mmmmmm. I guess the standard of proof i'd accept would be photos or video of DPRK soldiers machine gunning villagers like those that are available from My Lai, sexually humiliating, raping, beating, electric shocking, ect. political prisoners like are available from Abu Gharib, nuking cities like in Hiroshima, sending civilians into concentration camps for their race like what happend in the US in the 1940s.

Because, those types of human rights abuses have photographic evidence. They're not simply a matter of rumor and speculation. If there weren't pictures of massacures in Vietnam or torture in Iraq, no one would believe they happened, because thats the level of proof needed to believe such a thing about the US government.

So why should the DPRK government he held to a much lower standard of proof?

If theres torture, massacures, or concentration camps, i want to see the photos, the location and the date and an eye witness account, then i'd believe it. Because, if those things are routinely available for American atrocities, and in fact needed to show that they actually happened, why aren't they available from the DPRK? Are we just supposed to think the DPRK's internal security is just vastly superior to that of the United State's army...and moreover, if that kindof evidence is *NOT* available then on what basis can the people claiming that atrocities took place maintain those claims?

Because, if you don't have the photos, with eyewitnesses and people able to say where and when the photos were taken, you don't know what is simply 'spin.' Doesn't everyone here remember the big "Cuba arrests dozens of journalists for dissenting against the government" story...when in fact the journalists were arrested because they were caught taking money from a CIA agent not because fo anything they wrote.

I"m being serious too, i would reconsider my position if i saw any direct *evidence* that such things took place. I wouldn't support Iran for instance, as some leftists would, because there is evidence available showing genuine human rights abuses.

[Super Mario Conspiracy]

So we can see that it is foolish to believe that Kim Jong Il purposely starves his people.

No, I don't believe that Kim Jong Il starves his people on purpose - his way of thinking and acting, since he is the head of state, does.


Korea being split results in the North not having access to the more fertile argiculture in the south. So of course people were going to starve.

Of course. Let the majority suffer, while the minority is keeping their system intact.


When he dies (or, for that matter when he becomes unpopular or simply too old) he'll just be replaced with someone else whose politically viable in the DPRK.

And why would it not follow the leaders that came after Mao Zedong or Ho Chi Mihn?


His powers and responsibilities are actually quiet limited, having neither the powers/responsibilities of a head of state or a head of government (positions filled by other people) so he's really not indespensible.

Isn't that the same for all "communist" countries that have existed/exists?


thats a pretty meaningless hyperbole.

Why? We are ready to do anything to bring down the US government, even allying with all kinds of tyrants, no?


Juche is an ideology, not an economic or political system...

And the North Korean government follows that ideology - self reliance. Juche is a miscarriage of socialism, just as imperialism and fascism are miscarriages of capitalism.


the ideology espouses (among other things) a *socialist* economic and political system.

Then why change it? Are they not satisfied with being socialists?


What you said makes about as much sense as saying "The United States doesn't live under capitalism or imperialism, it lives under neo-conservatism."

Did the Soviet Union live under (real) communism?


They need something like 'capitalism' to bring in new capital, which makes a profit for the state, which the state then uses to build it's public sector.

Naturally. But I wouldn't trust one moment that Kim Jong Il is using the money he gets from his capitalist experiment into feeding his people. I need further proof.


The Republican and Democratic parties have started socialist experiments. They're called Social Security, welfare, medicare, progressive income tax, limited hours in the work day, union rights, ect.

Yes - but not in a physical place. Since the US has a constitution and follows laws, people have the right to push for these things. The North Korean people have no say in anything the North Korean government does.


So, the capitalists wont practice it because, even though its ideal, it poses too great a risk to losing everything.

Indeed. But now that the globalization process has started, I see the regrowth of pure capitalism pushing forward. Maybe globalization is the thing that digs the capitalists grave this very moment?

Should be interesting to see...


Likewise, the DPRK needs money, to say, fund its massive army and nuclear program, to protect itself from an otherwise inevitable American invasion.

But the US is the most powerful nation on earth. North Korea will not have any chance of protecting itself. What will they bomb? South Korea? The world will be more pissed on North Korea for nuking the South that way...


So, like the Republicans, they trade some things for the preservation of their system as a whole, to reduce the risk of losing everything.

Juche will never fall while the current North Korean government is intact. North Korea would be better of if they first adopted capitalism as a whole, merged with the South, and then rose up again in true socialism.

As it is now, there are only negative things coming out of North Korea.


political prisoners like are available from Abu Gharib, nuking cities like in Hiroshima, sending civilians into concentration camps for their race like what happend in the US in the 1940s.

Just because the US are aggresive towards the people, doesn't mean that we are free to kill and torture them as well, let alone support any such government in the name of "anti-imperialism". We won't be any better than the US if we practice or support something like that.


Because, those types of human rights abuses have photographic evidence.

Yes - by the capitalist media itself! Just because the majority of news agencies are practicizing capitalism it does not mean that they will protect everything bad that capitalism have done.


So why should the DPRK government he held to a much lower standard of proof?

Because North Korea don't have to follow any constitution, have any juridical processes or anything that can support the people, not to mention the secrecy they're shrouded in. It is more shocking that democratic states, that obeys laws and regulations of the people, would do something like that, than states in which the people have no control over.

And do you honestly believe that everyone in North Korea are satisfied, therefore nothing "bad" has been reported from that country? History has shown that all undemocratic states with strong governments have committed crimes against humanity, no matter how strong the state were in those countries.

Why is North Korea different from those states?


If theres torture, massacures, or concentration camps, i want to see the photos, the location and the date and an eye witness account, then i'd believe it.

And who exactly would give you that kind of proof? Journalists who can't enter North Korea? The North Korean media?

Besides, there are plenty of people who escaped North Korea with stories to tell - along with Japanes accounts of people who have been kidnapped by the DPRK government.


Are we just supposed to think the DPRK's internal security is just vastly superior to that of the United State's army...and moreover, if that kindof evidence is *NOT* available then on what basis can the people claiming that atrocities took place maintain those claims?

As I said, the media in Western countries can report freely on autrocities committed by Western nations - their media is not tied to the state. The North Korean media is controlled by the North Korean government - thus they can control what the media says.

In the West, it is illegal to cover up crimes committed by any government (and yes, they do succeed in covering up through illegal deals) by standard, but in North Korea, they can do whatever they want. Who would ever proove it?

[OleMarxco]

I see great difference, if not schism - between the young communists today and the old communists who is in rule and was in rule of the respective countries. (Communist because they are Socialist but on way to Communism, of course) Why do y'all think this is so? Give a wil'guess! :P

[TC]

Super Mario Conspiracy, you've been uncritically buying into the type of Fox News propaganda about the DPRK without even thinking about it.




No, I don't believe that Kim Jong Il starves his people on purpose - his way of thinking and acting, since he is the head of state, does.



First of all, Kim Jong Il is only the 'Chairman of the National Defense Commission', which as in China, is a powerful position but is not, if held alone, a position that makes its holder the 'paramount leader' (to use the western term for Communist leaders who hold enough top offices to be the equivolent of like, an American president).

Technically Kim Jong Il has neither domestic nor foriegn policy powers.

The actual head of state of north Korea is Kim Yong Nam (no relation) and he is the one one with the credientials to act as a head of state internationally.




Isn't that the same for all "communist" countries that have existed/exists?

No, not really. In the Soviet Union and China political leaders would often occupy all three top offices in their country as heads of the government, the party, and the army (although in both countries there were lots of periods where three different people often from different factions occupied those positions, or where a 'paramount leader' would lose one or two of the top offices but retain one of them as was pretty much the standard way of making power transitions in China).

In some communist countries like Cuba all of the most important powers are given to a single office (the president) as in most western governments (except those with the French system).




And the North Korean government follows that ideology - self reliance. Juche is a miscarriage of socialism, just as imperialism and fascism are miscarriages of capitalism.

You obviously have no idea what Juche is about. Juche is really more like, Marxist politics and economy but existentialist social theory. The basic position of Juche is based around a concept called Chajusong which doesn't translate very well into English but its about having freedom of choice, and moreover struggling to have freedom of choice and control over your personal destiny that, in the "Juche" ideology is the motivation of the masses for revolution against capitalism because, capitalism prevents them from realizing that freedom and 'Chajusong' becomes the philosophical justificiation for socialism as the most desirable system. It is in a way similar to western existentialism in Sartre in particular.



Did the Soviet Union live under (real) communism?


Yeah, the Soviet Union was *really* socialist...it might not have been a utopian ideal of theoretically pure socialism, but neither is the United States a theoretically pure capitalist state. So yeah for the purposes of real world comparison it was. But you basically entirely missed my point.



Naturally. But I wouldn't trust one moment that Kim Jong Il is using the money he gets from his capitalist experiment into feeding his people. I need further proof.


Its not Kim Jong Il's job to give snotty western kids proof of anything. He doesn't report to you, you're not part of his constituency.



Yes - but not in a physical place. Since the US has a constitution and follows laws, people have the right to push for these things. The North Korean people have no say in anything the North Korean government does.



Lol. The DPRK has a constitution as well. It is a multiparty democracy with competitive elections and two opposition parties in parliament, a party representing a minority religious group and a social democrat party representing liberal types. Of course they're never going to gain enough seats in the forseeable future to challange the Workers Party, but they could if more people voted for them.

What you're writing is just complete ignorant. You make these claims without even thinking about them other then in the dumb american "duuh, north korea is a dictatorship, in the US we have democracy!" way.



But the US is the most powerful nation on earth. North Korea will not have any chance of protecting itself. What will they bomb? South Korea? The world will be more pissed on North Korea for nuking the South that way...

Did they not teach you cold war history in school? The stratigic aim of a countries defense program against the United States (or for that matter Russia or China) is not to defeat it in some kindof WWII style total war with an unconditional surrender signed in Washington, it is to make it apparent to the Americans that any attack against them would be so costly as to defeat the origional purpose, therefore *detering* American attack. The reasoning is that the United States is very likely to attack north Korea if it expects to lose only 1000 or 2000 troops, but its very unlikely to attack if it expects to lsoe tens of thousands of troops and even less likely to attack if it expected to lose hundreds of thousands of civilians in Hawaii and California.

For instance, the Clinton administration considered invading the DPRK in 1994 over the nuclear issue, but his advisors and specifically Gen. Gary Luck, the commander of US forces in Korea the time estimated that in the first three months of fighting there would be 52,000 US casulities and result in a trillion dollers of economic damage. The cost was just too high for it to be worth while so the US didn't invade. Thats the type of "defense" they want, not to actually 'win' a war but to prevent one from happening in the first place. I think it can be assumed that the pentagon estimated the costs of a war in Iraq as being much lower.



Just because the US are aggresive towards the people, doesn't mean that we are free to kill and torture them as well, let alone support any such government in the name of "anti-imperialism". We won't be any better than the US if we practice or support something like that.

You're missing my point. The north Koreans DONT do any of those things, there is no EVIDENCE to suggest that they do. There IS evidence to suggest the Americans do.



Because North Korea don't have to follow any constitution, have any juridical processes or anything that can support the people, not to mention the secrecy they're shrouded in. It is more shocking that democratic states, that obeys laws and regulations of the people, would do something like that, than states in which the people have no control over.


Thats stupid. North Korea DOES follow a constitution, google "DPRK constitution" and i'm sure you can get it in english. Of course it has judical process and the people vote for who they want in office like in any western state...except in the DPRK the election process isn't controlled by the capitalist media wehre you need campaign contributions from corportations to participate.


And do you honestly believe that everyone in North Korea are satisfied, therefore nothing "bad" has been reported from that country?

Its not heaven on earth and you can't expect it to be. Bad things happen everywhere. The difference is that there is well documented photographic proof that the United States systematically commits atrocities on a wide scale, and no such proof in the case of north korea, in fact, no *specific* allegations of that even.



History has shown that all undemocratic states with strong governments have committed crimes against humanity, no matter how strong the state were in those countries.


The DPRK is not undemocratic, and history hasn't shown anything like that to be the case in the DPRK. There have been demonstrated crimes against humanty by the Americans, the British, the French, the Japanese, the Germans, the Italians, ect, in some cases in regimes that were accepted as undemocratic and in some cases regimes that claim to be democratic. History has shown that okay. It hasn't shown anything like that in the case of the DPRK so stop claiming it has unless you can point to something specific that has available evidence.




And who exactly would give you that kind of proof? Journalists who can't enter North Korea? The North Korean media?

Besides, there are plenty of people who escaped North Korea with stories to tell - along with Japanes accounts of people who have been kidnapped by the DPRK government.



Journalists are allowed to enter north Korea. There is an (obnoxious) BBC coorespondent in north Korea so, you clearly just made that up. You could enter north Korea as a tourist yourself if you have any passport other then an American one (in which case i think visa applications are more complicated but they still let nearly everyone go). You can fly to Sunan international Airport outside of Pyongyang from Berlin, Beijing, Bangkok, on China Northern Airline and from Moscow on Aeroflot and more recently from Shenyang on China Southern Airline...so book your flights and stop claiming its so 'secretative.'

I don't know what you think "escaped" means when you can just take a plane from Pyongyang international airport to wherever you want to go (except like, the United States) if you're north Korean (obviously they wouldn't want to jump the wall in teh DMZ cause the Americans would kill them).

The entire "japan kidnapping" story is really quiet dubious since it appears that most of the people who were allegedly kidnapted were in fact defectors to north Korea and none of them were confined. For instance, during and before WWII Japan drafted thousands of Koreans for slave labor in Japan, who later returned to korea after the war with japanese spouses...calilng their japanese spouses 'kidnap victims' sounds pretty absurd but since the Japanese government makes it difficult for them to return to Japan (to see their extended family) and then go back to north Korea (to return to their immediate family) it does cause funny diplomatic problems.

And, political defectors from countries are not exactly the most reliable sources of accurate information, since they're well motivated to lie to make their regimes sound far worse then they really are (that way they're groups get funded and if they're real lucky their home countries are invaded and they get to be puppet presidents!). There were tons of defectors from Iraq who talked about very detailed things like mobile weapons laboratories (which i think, if you think about if for a second, sounds like a really stupid idea, how would they fit even a highschool chemistry lab in a truck) and stockpiles of VX gas, mustard gas, weaponized anthrax, nuclear programs, ect. All of which were entirely made up. Or do you recall the Gulf War I incubator story (http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0906/p25s02-cogn.html) where a young kuwaiti woman told the US congress (and the American media) that she witnessed Iraqi soldiers murdering babies in incubators in a hospital...which of course everyone in the US immediately believed and wanted to go out and invade Iraq...when in fact she was the Kuwaiti Ambassador's daughter, was in the United States during the whole gulf war, and such an incident never took place...but of course that was never as widely reported in the western media and the US had already commited to a war.




As I said, the media in Western countries can report freely on autrocities committed by Western nations - their media is not tied to the state.

Actually the media in the places where the atroticies take place IS tied to the state. There are not independent reporters in the American "torture chambers and rape rooms" (to use Bush's favorite phrase) in Iraq or in the burned out villages in Vietnam. The media is handled, it gets shown only what the military wants it to see.

When evidence of atrocities is uncovered by the media, its always in the form of leaks, of individual soldiers smuggling photos to reporters back home. DPRK soldiers could just as easily do the same thing (not that its real easy for American soldiers to do that nessessarily, but a few seem to anyways) and give it to reporters in China or whatever.





In the West, it is illegal to cover up crimes committed by any government (and yes, they do succeed in covering up through illegal deals) by standard, but in North Korea, they can do whatever they want. Who would ever proove it?

Its obviously illigal to cover up crimes by the government in the DPRK too. Its the nature of crimes though that people commiting them try not to get caught. They can't do whatever they want, i don't know why you assume such things when you have no reason to do so.

Whats ironic is that when the judicial system in the Soviet Union and China would prosecute government officials for commiting crimes through their offices, the media in the west would accuse them of being political motivated purges.

[KC]

First of all, Kim Jong Il is only the 'Chairman of the National Defense Commission', which as in China, is a powerful position but is not, if held alone, a position that makes its holder the 'paramount leader' (to use the western term for Communist leaders who hold enough top offices to be the equivolent of like, an American president).

Did you know North Koreans worship Kim Jong Il as a god?

[Hiero]

No, I don't believe that Kim Jong Il starves his people on purpose - his way of thinking and acting, since he is the head of state, does.

Im sorry but he doesn't control the paterns of weather.

From that report it said agricultural sector was growing, which i bolded. So if Kim Jon Il was the sole decision maker his thinking and acting is in the right direction.

You have yet to prove that Kim Jong Il starves his people due to they way he thinks and acts.

Actually you have failed to prove anything, you stink of bourgeois thinking. You are advocating capitalism. Look what happen to the USSR when it took up its final capitalist reforms in 1991. It got worse then better.

You do not attack the DPRK from a Marxist perspective, you attack if from a fox news perspective.

Basically you are saying "Kim Jong Il is a evil satanic baster, he likes to starve the people of North Korea, the people of North Korea absoutely hate their government (because i do and i am a true socialist), yet they are forced to worship him like a god. The people of North Korea have no power and make no decision in government (yet i can't describe how politics work in the DPRK so i will jsut say that Kim Jong Il makes all decisions). The government in DPRk is the fault of the famine (even though i have been told countless times about Korea being prone to flooding and drought, but having a fox perspective is much more simpelier to say kim is crazy, like look at his hair). The DPRK commits human rights abuses (even though all evidence for that claim are sketchy, and DPRK dessenters are known to lie about acounts for money recieve from TV crews). Therefore the government of DPRK is evil, and capitalism is the best option for them, (even though i have been shown an article that shows the DPRK is expanded in feilds it lacks).

Thats all im getting from you.

Even i have problems with the DPRK, but you are showing me no postive criticism, just the negative criticism of Fox news, and the IMF.

[TC]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2005, 04:47 AM


First of all, Kim Jong Il is only the 'Chairman of the National Defense Commission', which as in China, is a powerful position but is not, if held alone, a position that makes its holder the 'paramount leader' (to use the western term for Communist leaders who hold enough top offices to be the equivolent of like, an American president).

Did you know North Koreans worship Kim Jong Il as a god?
No, they dont.

Some Americans seem to believe he has the power to increase rainfall, make crops grow or fail, prevent floods and dry spells, and otherwise do the things that are nessessary to create or prevent famine...though.

[KC]

Have you read any firsthand accounts from North Koreans about what the country is like? ANd yes, they do.

[Super Mario Conspiracy]

Super Mario Conspiracy, you've been uncritically buying into the type of Fox News propaganda about the DPRK without even thinking about it.

I don't have Fox News where I live. But is it propaganda when we all know that North Korea is a dictatorship?


First of all, Kim Jong Il is only the 'Chairman of the National Defense Commission', which as in China, is a powerful position but is not, if held alone, a position that makes its holder the 'paramount leader'

Doesn't look so to me. It was on Kim Jong Il's orders that made Kim Il Sung "eternal president" - even though he is dead. Everything I see and hear seems to be based around Kim Jong Il - not the National Assembly, or through some kind of voting system, or any system at all that at least gives the people a chance to vote "yes" or "no".

In other words: I don't care what title Kim Jong Il has - the sole reason that he is a leader with power and riches to live out his life without doing anything is enough reason for me to realize that democracy isn't really North Korea's strongest point.

And why the hell does he have the title "Dear Leader"?


Technically Kim Jong Il has neither domestic nor foriegn policy powers.

Practically - he somehow does.


Its not Kim Jong Il's job to give snotty western kids proof of anything. He doesn't report to you, you're not part of his constituency.

No, of course not. It's not his job to show the world that "Juche really works here in North Korea - look how well we have fared..."


The DPRK has a constitution as well.

That guarantees freedom of speach? Freedom of the press? Freedom to travel in and out of the country? Freedom to form any kind of association/organization? Freedom to criticize the ruling party and its leaders? Freedom to criticize Kim Jong Il and Kim Il Sung?

Does not seem like they have much of a constitution...


It is a multiparty democracy with competitive elections and two opposition parties in parliament,

Minor political parties exist, but they are subordinated to the KWP and do not oppose its rule.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_korea)


Of course they're never going to gain enough seats in the forseeable future to challange the Workers Party, but they could if more people voted for them.

Yes, of course. How could I not see that? The people obviously wants to live in misery, in a state where the military takes the food of the people, where they cannot criticize their "Great Leader" and the "Dear Leader". Wow, I almost feel like I could take the next plane to North Korea and start a new life there!


What you're writing is just complete ignorant. You make these claims without even thinking about them other then in the dumb american "duuh, north korea is a dictatorship, in the US we have democracy!" way.

I wonder which one of us is the ignorant one - since you have provided absolutely no links to any reliable sources, mentioned no books or nothing. You expect me, and the rest of the people here to just accept that North Korea is the good "socialist" state without even questioning it?


You're missing my point. The north Koreans DONT do any of those things, there is no EVIDENCE to suggest that they do. There IS evidence to suggest the Americans do.

There is no evidence that North Korea is a dictatorship?

There is plenty of evidence:

Reports by human rights organizations regularly accuse the government of failing to protect the human rights of North Koreans; North Korea receives particular criticism for its policy of preventing citizens from leaving the country freely.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/eng-prk/index

(And don't tell me Amnesty International is just some US puppy organization.)

North Korea is accused of employing concentration camps and severely restricting most freedoms such as freedom of speech. These camps are believed to hold as many as 200,000 inmates, including children whose only crime is having "class enemies" for parents; in some of the camps, the annual mortality rate approaches 25%.[/i)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4397847/#storyContinued

http://www.hrnk.org/

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3071466

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/this_world/3436701.stm

[i]North Korea's society is highly stratified by class, according to a citizen's family and political background. Refugees International, Médecins Sans Frontières, and Amnesty International have all accused North Korea of discriminating against those in "hostile" classes in the distribution of basic necessities, including food. In some "closed" areas that contained a higher concentration of "hostile" class members, the government appears to have prevented the delivery of any significant amounts of food aid at all.

Yet during this same period, North Korea maintained a massive military machine and supported an extravagant lifestyle for its leader, Kim Jong-Il. The World Food Program currently seeks $200 million in emergency food aid for North Korea, an increase from its FY 2004 request of $171 million. By comparison, its FY 2002 defense budget was $5.2 billion.

http://www.wfp.org/newsroom/subsections/se...&countryid=408# (http://www.wfp.org/newsroom/subsections/search.asp?section=13&countryid=408#)

http://www.time.com/time/asia/news/magazin...,201976,00.html (http://www.time.com/time/asia/news/magazine/0,9754,201976,00.html)

North Korea claims that natural disasters caused the famine. Taken together, however, these reports suggest different explanations for North Korea's great famine. At best, it appears to be a program of malign and discriminatory neglect. At worst, it is a program of political classification and cleansing not unlike that used in Soviet Ukraine in the 1930s--political cleansing by engineered famine.


Of course it has judical process and the people vote for who they want in office like in any western state...

Oh, I see. And I suppose it's just plain coincidence that the KWP is the only party that has been in power since the "end" of the Korean war?


Its not heaven on earth and you can't expect it to be.

Please. North Korea is the one and only secretive state in the whole world. It's impossible by "legal means" to leave the country if you are a citizen, it's illegal to criticize Kim Jong Il or his daddy. But then again, there can't be heaven on earth...


There have been demonstrated crimes against humanty by the Americans, the British, the French, the Japanese, the Germans, the Italians, ect,

There has been scandals and hypocracy all over the world in fact. Why would North Korea suddenly be an all-happy, benelovent dictatorship?


Actually you have failed to prove anything, you stink of bourgeois thinking.

Yes, I am the sole evil on this page. I plainly and openly hate Joseph Stalin and Kim Il Sung and his son, Kim Jong Il. I am the evil capitalist advocate from ***************. You should evict me before I do even more damage!


You are advocating capitalism.

No.


Look what happen to the USSR when it took up its final capitalist reforms in 1991. It got worse then better.

Quote me where I said that Russia became better after the fall of the Soviet Union.


You do not attack the DPRK from a Marxist perspective, you attack if from a fox news perspective.

What?!

So I should advocate a strong state? I should advocate a secret police? Gulags? One strong party that can't be criticized? If I do that, will I become a Marxist then?

Am I not a communist if I advocate free speach? Freedom to start an organization or association? Freedom to leave whatever socialist country freely? Freedom to criticize the government, and any person in that government?


"Kim Jong Il is a evil satanic baster, he likes to starve the people of North Korea,

Do I think that Kim Jong Il just loves to see his people die of starvation? No, I don't. I don't because Kim Jong Il is not Stalin or Hitler. I do believe that if one day, Kim Jong Il would get almighty powers to do whatever he wanted, that he would actually help the North Korean people. But unfortunately, he won't be given those powers.

But I do say that he can do a much better job than he is doing right now.


the people of North Korea absoutely hate their government

I didn't say that the North Korean people absolutely hated their government. I said that I think it is funny how they never once criticized their government - let alone not a single demonstration.


yet they are forced to worship him like a god.

"Dear Leader"?


The people of North Korea have no power and make no decision in government (yet i can't describe how politics work in the DPRK so i will jsut say that Kim Jong Il makes all decisions).

North Korea's government is dominated by the Korean Workers' Party (KWP), to which all government officials belong. The KWP follows and upholds the ideology of Juche (self-reliance), which originally grew out of Stalinism.

Like the former Soviet Union, North Korea is dominated by a party bureaucracy that claims to represent the will of the people. Communist critics of the KWP argue that it represents a "deformed workers' state" which has formed a bureaucratic elite that does not follow democratic centralism and thus is not related to Communism or Marxism-Leninism.

The KWP itself has replaced mentions of Marxism-Leninism in the North Korean constitution with Juche in 1977. Minor political parties exist, but they are subordinated to the KWP and do not oppose its rule. In practice the exact power structure of the country is somewhat unclear, although it is commonly accepted that the nation's regime is a totalitarian dictatorship.

Technically, they're not even "socialists".


The DPRK commits human rights abuses (even though all evidence for that claim are sketchy,

Have you heard that there is an organization called Amnesty International?


and DPRK dessenters are known to lie about acounts for money recieve from TV crews)

No, I didn't say that.


Therefore the government of DPRK is evil, and capitalism is the best option for them,

Yes, a suggestion. Or maybe you prefer totalitarianism rather than liberal-capitalism?


(even though i have been shown an article that shows the DPRK is expanded in feilds it lacks).

Damn, I missed them. Oh well, then I guess the DPRK have fulfilled socialism completely... :huh:


Even i have problems with the DPRK,

Why? What possible problems could you have with North Korea?


but you are showing me no postive criticism,

What positive criticism? That they have returned to the nuclear talks? That the North Korean people get one more potato in their food today than they got yesterday?


just the negative criticism of Fox news, and the IMF.

I just said that I don't have Fox News, and what possible criticism could I get from the IMF? Surely, you are mistaken.

[Camarada]

It is a multiparty democracy with competitive elections and two opposition parties in parliament

What elections? :lol:

Please, enlighten me, when were the last elections for the Presidency/Prime Minister whatever office Kim Jong il holds in North Korea? Or any elections for that matter?

Let me ask, what would happen to me, if I was a Korean living in Pyongyang, North Korea, and I went out on the sidewalk and help up a sign saying "Kim Jong Il is a bourgeois tyrant". I think you know what would happen.

[Hiero]

The people obviously wants to live in misery, in a state where the military takes the food of the people

What proof do you have that the military takes food from the people?


North Korea is accused of employing concentration camps and severely restricting most freedoms such as freedom of speech. These camps are believed to hold as many as 200,000 inmates, including children whose only crime is having "class enemies" for parents; in some of the camps, the annual mortality rate approaches 25%.

Notice the bolded "accused" "believed".


Yes, I am the sole evil on this page. I plainly and openly hate Joseph Stalin and Kim Il Sung and his son, Kim Jong Il. I am the evil capitalist advocate from ***************. You should evict me before I do even more damage!


What are you getting at?


QUOTE
You are advocating capitalism.



No.


North Korea would be better of if they first adopted capitalism as a whole



Quote me where I said that Russia became better after the fall of the Soviet Union.

You didn't. I using Russia as an example why your idea about DPRK taking about capitalism is a terrible idea.


So I should advocate a strong state? I should advocate a secret police? Gulags? One strong party that can't be criticized? If I do that, will I become a Marxist then?

There is no difference in the way you attack DPRK and the was the US attacks the DPRK.

Untill you start talking about the class war, your are not a Marxist, just a liberal.

Oh and i don't know many Marxist who adovocate Capitalism as a way forward.


But I do say that he can do a much better job than he is doing right now.

And you have great ideas don't you? It is not like running a country with little allies is at all hard.


Like the former Soviet Union, North Korea is dominated by a party bureaucracy that claims to represent the will of the people. Communist critics of the KWP argue that it represents a "deformed workers' state" which has formed a bureaucratic elite that does not follow democratic centralism and thus is not related to Communism or Marxism-Leninism.

And? It doesn't explain the system of the DPRK. Many say Cuba is a dictatorship, because it was one party. This is not the case. Like Cuba DPRK has sytem of democracy, just its unlike the typically capitalist one.


No, I didn't say that.

No im saying that.


Yes, a suggestion. Or maybe you prefer totalitarianism rather than liberal-capitalism?

Liberal capitalism would be a tragedy for the people of DPRK. It would result in 3rd world wages when the Imperialist countries place their factories in the country, also the citizens would lose all their rights they gained through the revolution.


Damn, I missed them. Oh well, then I guess the DPRK have fulfilled socialism completely...

I never said that, but they clearly have a style of socailism, that is the major modes of production working for the benifit of the people in the hands of the State.


Why? What possible problems could you have with North Korea?

The emerging dynasty, the over exagerating need for a conventional army, that may be a parasite on the country rather then playing multi rules, the emergance of a revisionist group in the rulling party, like what has happened in the USSR and China.


I just said that I don't have Fox News, and what possible criticism could I get from the IMF? Surely, you are mistaken.

You take up that type of attitude. You don't question the fact that many lies can orginate about a Socialist nation.

[KC]

Oh and i don't know many Marxist who adovocate Capitalism as a way forward.

Any level-headed marxist knows that in some cases capitalism is a way forward. When a country is so primitive in the aspect that it hasn't developed capitalist society, this is when capitalism should be implemented.

[Super Mario Conspiracy]

What elections?

Even better: Why is the Korean Worker's Party banner hanging everywhere in the DPRK? Do you see the Republican Party banner hanging everywhere in the US? Or for that matter, any party's banner in any other state worldwide?


Please, enlighten me, when were the last elections for the Presidency/Prime Minister whatever office Kim Jong il holds in North Korea?

Oh, but you are mistaken! The DPRK already has a precident: Kim Il Sung. Although he is already dead, he holds the ultimate title: Eternal President!


Or any elections for that matter?

"You've been watching too much Fox News! Capitalist!"

:D


Let me ask, what would happen to me, if I was a Korean living in Pyongyang, North Korea, and I went out on the sidewalk and help up a sign saying "Kim Jong Il is a bourgeois tyrant". I think you know what would happen.

Oh, you should try to say something about Kim Il Sung - even better...


What proof do you have that the military takes food from the people?

I've already provided you links. Now, what proof do you have that that is a lie?


Notice the bolded "accused" "believed".

But of course, that can only and only be propaganda from Fox News, a channel apparently no one is watching in this forum...


I using Russia as an example why your idea about DPRK taking about capitalism is a terrible idea.

There is a difference. Russia is enormous, the biggest country on the planet. It has recourses, it has land for the agricultural projects. The DPRK do not have that kind of land, nor the agricultural means to feed it's people.

The point is: The USSR failed by political means, not because they were starving, not because they didn't have any recourses to feed their people.

Can the DPRK feed it's own people? No. No because the DPRK probably has one of the world's worst agricultural environments - what is it, around 20% or so of the DPRK is suitable for farming?

What I am saying is that the DPRK is a defunct and decayed country with no means to sustain itself. What would have happened if the Soviet Union cut off all trading and importing (when it existed)? It would have had the means to sustain itself. Imagine that situation for the DPRK. It wouldn't last a year.

This, not to mention all the reports of famine and starvation, food going to the army instead of to the people who needs it. That is why I think capitalism is better for the DPRK - it will provide them with the basics of surviving. Of course, I rather want to see a system much more like Cuba, but most likely, a capitalist system will replace the current system.


There is no difference in the way you attack DPRK and the was the US attacks the DPRK.

That is because I attack them from my viewpoint and my viewpoint alone. I don't have any hidden agenda. The US talks about peace and all kinds of freedoms, and look at them: the Patriot Act. That is the difference.


Untill you start talking about the class war, your are not a Marxist, just a liberal.

What class war? I am talking about a totalitarian state that controls its people! Of course there are classes in such a society! But the important thing is to erase the system first - to replace totalitarianism with a free society where everybody are free to say and do anything - before we can talk about class war.

Ask yourself: Is the food equally distributed in the DPRK? Is there a governemnt? If there is a government, there are classes.


Oh and i don't know many Marxist who adovocate Capitalism as a way forward.

Oh, and they advocate totalitarianism instead of capitalism?

I believe that one of the strongest points of revolution is that of information - knowledge. Do I think that the Soviet Union was a wrong step to take? Yes, I do! Why? Because the people of Russia did not have any clue about freedom of speach, or freedom of the press - none of those things.

I believe that if a socialist state is to be constructed - people must know - induvidually - what such a state is. If some government or group stands up and say something that sounds good - what difference is that from the imperial system before them?

I support and advocate a transissional state. Capitalism is bad, I know, but it is better than imperialism and feudalism. In an idealistic perspective, capitalism in a republic must be built first on rights of the people - such as freedom of speach, freedom of the press, freedom of organization and association. Why? Because out of these systems and institutions comes experience.

Sooner or later, as we witness today, capitalism starts to decay right in the face of all humans. They know, by experiencing it, that it is bad, and recognize change to society - thus the time for socialism. Essentially, when the revolution comes, it will be spontaniously, leaderless, chaotic and purely by the people.

Look at the demonstartions today! Leaderless, a big diverse group, many flags, many requirements and wantings! People, today, don't organize because of one leader - but because of experience - because they themselves have been exploited, humiliated as humans, and capitalized on. It is this I wish to see in all countries - a majority of the people, each induvidual thinking for him/herself "I want a better world!" "I want to work for the human being, not for the corporation!"


And you have great ideas don't you? It is not like running a country with little allies is at all hard.

Well, since their official policy is self-reliance, we can't do much, now can we?


And? It doesn't explain the system of the DPRK. Many say Cuba is a dictatorship, because it was one party.

Cuba is a dictatorship, it is only more benelovent than North Korea - and has, the way I see it, better relations with its people.


This is not the case. Like Cuba DPRK has sytem of democracy, just its unlike the typically capitalist one.

What democratic state in the last 50 years have had it's logo just about everywhere? Is it democratic that Kim Jong Il must be called "Dear Leader", and that his father somehow is the eternal president? Or maybe it's just because it is called the Democratic PRK...


also the citizens would lose all their rights they gained through the revolution.

Hah, what rights?


I never said that, but they clearly have a style of socailism, that is the major modes of production working for the benifit of the people in the hands of the State.

You mean, benefitting the big army the DPRK has?


the over exagerating need for a conventional army,

Why? The DPRK could be invaded by the US any day now!


You take up that type of attitude. You don't question the fact that many lies can orginate about a Socialist nation.

Oh, I am quite aware that the US has and probably are creating lies about whatever it is they don't like. But then again, everything bad about North Korea does not only come from the US, but other countries worldwide. Even leftists criticize North Korea.

If everything said about North Korea is just lies by the US media, how come not many leftists approve of it as a state fighting against the US? Does this mean that they, too, have been "brainwashed" by Fox News propaganda?

So far, the only good things I have heard about North Korea comes from people that supports North Korea, not critical people that take up all aspects. And no, not everyone I talk to is an American that fully and blindly supports the Bush way of seeing the world.

[Hiero]

When a country is so primitive in the aspect that it hasn't developed capitalist society,

Unless it has a industry. Which the DPRK has, and is growing.


Capitalism is bad, I know, but it is better than imperialism and feudalism.

Capitalism is in the era of Imperialism. If the DPRK were to turn capitalist, the would turn into a client state of the US.



Sooner or later, as we witness today, capitalism starts to decay right in the face of all humans. They know, by experiencing it, that it is bad, and recognize change to society - thus the time for socialism. Essentially, when the revolution comes, it will be spontaniously, leaderless, chaotic and purely by the people.

That is a dream. You would risk Socialist nations to turn capitalist, into client states of the US, based on a dream of capitalistm crumbling.


Oh, and they advocate totalitarianism instead of capitalism?

Who is advocating totalitarianism.

There is no point trying to have a Marxist debate about the DPRK when you dont know that Capitalism is in the era of Imperialism.

[Super Mario Conspiracy]

Capitalism is in the era of Imperialism. If the DPRK were to turn capitalist, the would turn into a client state of the US.

Not necessary. It could build up ties with China, or it's "former ally" - Russia.


That is a dream.

Mmm... a society without a government, where all people are equal and live in peace... what a dream... Wait, many people here believes such a state to become reality in the future!


You would risk Socialist nations to turn capitalist, into client states of the US, based on a dream of capitalistm crumbling.

No - I want any totalitarian state, not socialist state, to become capitalist, so that they can in turn become socialist. Socialism is a state where the people control the government, not the other way around. If you think North Korea is a socialist state - well, then I can only say that you have missed the point of leftist revolution.


Who is advocating totalitarianism.

You said that you did not know many Marxists who advocated capitalism - and I asked you if those Marxists (that you know) would rather advocate totalitarianism than capitalism (in any country).


There is no point trying to have a Marxist debate about the DPRK when you dont know that Capitalism is in the era of Imperialism.

Firstly, I never took on a Marxist perspective on North Korea. I am arguing about basic survival and basic human rights that should be granted to every human being in every country, which is not granted in North Korea to its own citizens.

Secondly, I have provided links to all kinds of sites where you can read accounts of crimes against human rights in North Korea, while you haven't provided any link at all to support your theory of North Korea being a "perfect socialist state".

I'm sorry. If you want me to believe that everything said about North Korea is just lies from Fox News (which, once again, nobody have), that every report is overcharged with lies where three extra zeroes are added to all kinds of tortures and deaths, and then take your word and believe it is that way, no, I can't do that.

And you still haven't answered the question why most leftists distance themselves from supporting North Korea.

[kingbee]

im not saying that all negative news that comes out about korea are lies, but everything must be taken with a pinch of salt.

so little is known about dprk, that it is hard to take a full, objective view of it.

in addition, ive read reports that defectors from the north were paid by south korean media to make up stories- which shows that exaggeration, and in this case, lying, is possible in media stories regarding north korea.

[themaskedavenger]

Grain of salt

[Jae iLL]

For those of you actually supporting the monster Kim Jong Il who murders my people on a daily basis, have you heard FIRSTHAND accoutns by n. Koreans who fled to China?? I have heard FIRSTHAND accounts of the atrocities committed by Kim Jong Il and his regime.

The n. Koreans who manage to flee to China, or bribe soldiers to allow them to pass end up becoming slaves to the Chinese. They receive little or no wages and they have to work their asses off. Sometimes they find friendly Korean-Americans near the border who will help hide them, but if they are caught the Chinese will send them back to n. Korea where their hands are pierced and a wire is ran through and they are dragged in line like that back to the fatherland. THere, they are made to work in concentration camps, if anybody breaks for a second or looks up he is IMMEDIATELY STOMPED to death.

Again, this is all information I have heard FIRSTHAND from North Koreans who fled the fascist state.

Former guards of the gulags have viewed satellite photos and told of the atrocities committed within. What more proof do you need? Citizens who managed to flee to China have told their story, to the press, to the friendly Chinese and Korean-Americans, myself included.

How can anyone say Kim Jong Il doesn't starve his people when his military is CONSTANTLY expanding while the people starve? How is the suffering of MY PEOPLE not HIS FAULT? I've seen the argument that the famine is ending.. have you not thought perhaps this is due to the FACT that MILLIONS of North Koreans have already died, and the world doesn't know it yet?
http://media.msnbc.msn.com/j/msnbc/1757000/1757282.widec.jpg

It really disturbs me that some people feel as though North Korea and Kim Jong Il specifically, are not guilty of any human rights abuse. A good portion of my family is up there (my clan originally hails from the north) however, I don't even know if they still live or not because of Kim Jong Il. My people are killed daily, you can't deny it until you hear the firsthand accounts. North Korea is NOT a Socialist government, but a FASCIST one.

[Hiero]

Satellite photos prove very little. For one none of us know what we are looking at, just like the satellite picture of Iraq's nuclear weopon factories, which were in the end false.

Also we have no reason to believe you, like the many who leave the DPRK and tell there story for loads of cash and later on admit that it was false.


Again, this is all information I have heard FIRSTHAND from North Koreans who fled the fascist state.


So people who have been stomped to death tell you their stories? that's amazing that dead people can tell you things.

[Jae iLL]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2005, 10:17 AM
Satellite photos prove very little. For one none of us know what we are looking at, just like the satellite picture of Iraq's nuclear weopon factories, which were in the end false.

Also we have no reason to believe you, like the many who leave the DPRK and tell there story for loads of cash and later on admit that it was false.


Again, this is all information I have heard FIRSTHAND from North Koreans who fled the fascist state.


So people who have been stomped to death tell you their stories? that's amazing that dead people can tell you things.
maybe you didnt read where I said that former guards have explained what the photos were, and maybe you failed to read where I said some North Koreans are able to escape to China where they tell people their story, what they've wittnessed. I don't care if you believe me or not, but there's a LOT more supporting evidence for what I claim than what you claim....

[BitchBrew]

Ehhh ok, Im not verry educated on maoism, but i have heard on tv and newspapers and such that he was more leaning to stalinism....... just something i have heard.....

[Hiero]

Originally posted by *****[email protected] 14 2005, 09:23 PM
Ehhh ok, Im not verry educated on maoism, but i have heard on tv and newspapers and such that he was more leaning to stalinism....... just something i have heard.....
We are not talking about Maoism, Kim Jong Il is not a Maoist.

[BitchBrew]

Originally posted by Hiero+Aug 14 2005, 10:43 AM--> (Hiero @ Aug 14 2005, 10:43 AM)
*****[email protected] 14 2005, 09:23 PM
Ehhh ok, Im not verry educated on maoism, but i have heard on tv and newspapers and such that he was more leaning to stalinism....... just something i have heard.....
We are not talking about Maoism, Kim Jong Il is not a Maoist. [/b]
I know, i acedentely only read the first page and therfore answered the then ongoing discution about Mao and China.