Sex, Sex Industry

[Donnie]

I was recently reading an article in "Organise" about sex and the anarchist views on sex and the sex industry; this includes:
* Pornography
* Lap dancing clubs
* Adult stores

Anyway as I was reading their views I came to the same conclusion as "Organise"; as long as the sex is safe, fair and consensual I see know problem but this lead me to think is the sex industry fair, safe and consensual because I would certainly hardly see a contract with a porn star as fair and consensual! I mean the woman (sorry to any feminist's who maybe offended by the term "women") accepting the contract may not be happy with going through with it but because of money problems she has to accept it.

Also the sex industry left me puzzled? Is the sex industry a form of sexual liberation or a form of sexual exploitation? Because certain films certainly do show a form of sexual exploitation.

Also I've herd of many stories of people among the left attacking Lap dancing clubs, but this raised a question for me are the people attacking these place's doing so on a class analysis or on a moral basis? I came to the same conclusion as the article that people who choose to attack their local lap dancing club and not their local petrol station do so because of personal moral reasons with sex.

What are you're views on sex and the sex industry?

[*Hippie*]

The sex trade should be abolished. Under capitalism, everything has a price tag and sex is one of those things that should NOT have a price, imo. Anyone who partakes in those activities is oppressing humanity. And it is not only womyn who are oppressed and exploited, many men also sell their bodies to make a living.

[chaval]

hippie is totally correct. the sex industry is one big exploitation system. i think maybe .01% of those in porn films, strippers etc are in it for fun. the rest are just being exploited since they need money. sex is becoming something almost commerical. everywhere you look you see sex, sex and more sex.

secondly, about porn, how many of you actually go about having sex like that seen in porn? i don't know anyone that would enjoy just whipping it out and giving a girl a facial for kicks. sure some people enjoy it but it is most definately not what the average person does. i honestly don't believe the porn industy does any good. at it is proven fact that it can do bad. so if there are no social benefits and definately some dangers (ie. degredation of women and exploitation) why continue to have it?

[Bolshevist]

Originally posted by *Hippie*@Jul 14 2005, 10:19 PM
The sex trade should be abolished. Under capitalism, everything has a price tag and sex is one of those things that should NOT have a price, imo. Anyone who partakes in those activities is oppressing humanity. And it is not only womyn who are oppressed and exploited, many men also sell their bodies to make a living.
I agree 100 percent!

[Paradox]

What are you're views on sex

Nothing wrong with it.


and the sex industry?

Still unsure about it. I've told myself before that it degradates women and objectifies them. But what of the men in porn? And not only men view porn, women do too, though I'm not sure how many. Then I say, "well, would they do it if they had the opportunities to do other things that didn't involve having sex for money?" Perhaps some enjoy it, but the majority? Like women who model to be in playboy or victoria's secret, etc., why do they do that? Is it because they enjoy it and having people admire their good looks? And if so, is that because they've been conditioned to think that's a good thing? Growing up with all this focus on physical attractiveness, they come to the conclusion that's how to be? I don't know.

And perhaps the main issue is consent. They consent to it. But is that as a last resort? And if some people in a Communist society wanted to make a video, a pornographic video, should they be allowed to? There would no money, and therefore no exploitation, and all members are consenting, so would it be a problem? I don't know.


everywhere you look you see sex, sex and more sex.

Sexuality is natural and hard to repress, but I guess the sex thing is out of hand.


Is the sex industry a form of sexual liberation or a form of sexual exploitation?

??? I've never heard anyone claim that the sex industry is a form of "sexual liberation." I don't know how one would support that theory. Perhaps sex toys spice things up? :lol: Or perhaps therapy and books to help couples. But strip clubs and porn? I don't think the same argument could apply there.

Overall, I'm undecided. The money involved is obviously a major factor. But when a Communist society is established, if some people want to make a video, for whatever reason, and all the people involved are consenting, I can't think of a reason to stop them.

[Paradox]

Do you view porn as legalized prostitution? Or are the two different? I've been wondering about the link between them for a while. You can't just have sex with a porn star like you can a prostitute. Obviously the risks are much greater involving prostitution than with porn. Still, in both cases, the women/men are selling their bodies.

I think prostitution should definitely be banned due to the dangers it entails, like the risk of rape, murder, STDs, etc.. Porn however, I'm not sure about.

[werewolf]

*example* You are a female college student and you need money fast. . . .

The sex industry is definately one of the many ugly faces of Capitalism.

However....there are probably those in the sex industry who actually like the job and never thought of money as a reason, as Paradox has mentioned.

Perhaps in Commuism (or Socialism) it would just naturally cease to exist.

[Donnie]

I've never heard anyone claim that the sex industry is a form of "sexual liberation."
I think I got it from Germaine Greer; I may have interpreted sexual liberation differently as to what she was trying to say. Argh

Anyway yeh I'm definitely for the openness of sexuality and the idea of sex not becoming a private thing. But I definitely agree with you on the idea that it's a form of exploitation on women. But in an anarchic communist society I wouldn't see a problem with either gays or straights making video's of themselves because it would be not for profit because of society being moneyless.

It's only in this system where the sex industry is used for profit that it becomes humiliating for the women being used for profit. I see that patriarchy is very dominant in the sex industry although I'm sure there are female directors.

In a communist society I would definitely like to see sex and sexuality as an open thing, sex and sexuality is a creative thing and should be encouraged. But what I don't like to see is it being exploited like the capitalist system.

[Paradox]

In a communist society I would definitely like to see sex and sexuality as an open thing, sex and sexuality is a creative thing and should be encouraged.

I concur.


But in an anarchic communist society I wouldn't see a problem with either gays or straights making video's of themselves because it would be not for profit because of society being moneyless.

That's pretty much what I've been leaning toward, though it's been a complex issue with me for awhile now.

But this leads to a paradox of sorts: If we agree that in a Communist society it would be ok, can we oppose it now? It's doubtful that the porn/strip club industry will be banned in capitalism, so we pretty much have accept that it exists the way it does at the moment. But once Communism is established, the money and exploitation involved would cease to exist, and any movies, magazines, or whatever, would be totally consentual and for expression, not profit.

Of course, the more abusive forms of porn, the kind that is truly degradating to those involved, would be abolished.

I wonder how big a role religion played in this "explosion" of sexuality. All that repression of sexual thoughts and "lust" they make people believe, it can't be good to hold in these natual feelings, which are part of being human. And now "boom."

[redstar2000]

It's actually a pretty complicated question.

Item: under capitalism, women with "good looks" but few skills can generally make a far better living in the sex industry than in any other line of work.

Item: working conditions are poor...but the hours are short. There have been sporadic efforts to organize workers in the sex industry, but they have not amounted to much so far.

Item: men who can't get sex any other way are willing to patronize the sex industry.

Item: socialism is a class society with on-going economic inequalities and use of money; in such a society, it will continue to be to the advantage of both buyers and sellers of sex to carry on their trade. To "abolish" the sex industry in such circumstances will be like trying to "abolish" the drug trade -- an army of "vice cops", an elaborate prison system, etc., etc.

Item: in a communist/anarchist society, there is no money and no incentive to engage in "commercial" sex...except possibly from artistic motives.

Item: at some point in the not-too-distant future, it's going to become possible to reproduce the sexual experience in "virtual reality". Although the equipment will be very expensive initially -- and technically crude as well -- it will undoubtedly be improved in both regards with the passing of time. How will people relate to each other sexually then -- when something "just as good" or maybe "even better" is available "on demand" in "the privacy of your own home"?

Tricky stuff.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[KC]

I've told myself before that it degradates women and objectifies them.

Do you think stripping degrades women? All they have to do is take their clothes off and they get paid. And they get paid WELL (most of the time).

Does pornography degrade women? I don't think so. Pornography is a way for people to turn their thoughts into reality. These thoughts already exist, so pornography doesnt degrade women. You could argue that the thoughts do, however I dont believe that.

[Vallegrande]

I think prostitution should definitely be banned due to the dangers it entails, like the risk of rape, murder, STDs, etc.. Porn however, I'm not sure about.
That's why brothels were more safer for prostitution, although morals may be controversial. But now that it is illegal, it is easier to rape or murder a prostitute. Prostitution is controversial though due to the money issue.

[Roses in the Hospital]

If only society would get over this prudishness about sex in general. If sex and sexulaity were allowed to be out in the open and regarded as the natural thing it clearly is, then I doubt there'd be much call for a specific sex industry like we have today.

In regard to the sex industry in general, however, I thing that although there undoubtadly is a level of exploitation involved overall, there are more dangeous exploitative industries which deserve to be dealt with first...

[TC]

I think whats really awful about sex work is that, while all sorts work in a capitalist system alienate people from their labor, sex work additionally alienates them from their own bodies and sexualities. In that sense, someone who uses someone's work out put is being exploitive, but someone who uses someone's body sexually is being even vastly more exploitive. Instead of just feeling like what they do from 9 to 5 uses them like everyone else, they're put in a position of having themselves feel used.

But at the same time, people have to have the right to sell sex if they decide to because if they don't they're not being given total control over their own bodies and that is also oppressive. People who do, shouldn't be made to feel guilty or have any stigma, they're just doing the best they can given the circumstances, given how much money they need and how much they'd be able to generate in another job.

But people who make money off them are a lot more exploitive for the reasons discussed above i think are a lot more exploitive then people who make money off of other workers.

[Donnie]

The openness of sexuality and sex into day’s society is great. What disappoints me is the way the system exploits it to earn profit.
I've come to the conclusion from most of your answers that it is important to target the sex industry not because of sex being open, but because sex and women who are made to feel like objects are being exploited.

But in an anarchist society if I came across a pornographic material I would know that women and sex in general would have not been exploited.

[guerillablack]

I'm sorry but your a certain type of person to want to be a porn star. I don't know that many people who become porn stars cuz they was hard up for cash(no pun).

Sorry to say, but people become porn stars like people become teachers, because they wanna do it. Prostitution is different.

[Snitza]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2005, 02:52 AM
Item: at some point in the not-too-distant future, it's going to become possible to reproduce the sexual experience in "virtual reality". Although the equipment will be very expensive initially -- and technically crude as well -- it will undoubtedly be improved in both regards with the passing of time. How will people relate to each other sexually then -- when something "just as good" or maybe "even better" is available "on demand" in "the privacy of your own home"?

I've actually seen some news on the development of such technology; it's innovative as hell! A man or woman is strapped into a comfortable leather chair, and about 20 or 30 electric "patches" with wires are attached to various parts of the body. With some video reel and corresponding "feelings" going through your body, it's just like having sex, so I hear. Pretty amazing stuff. You can't get STDs or impregnation from a computer! :D

In regard to the sex industry, which of course goes well beyond just pornorgraphu, including prostitution, exotic dancing, "massages" and so on....The problem with the sex industry isn't that it exists, but rather that it exists on the basis of class inequality and the basis of female desperation.

If, as some have mentioned, women who are involved in this industry are not financially coerced into participation, but rather genuinely enjoy being sodomized on camera by a 12-inch monster cock, well...these women are going to continue to do this wheter they're paid or not.

But how many of the women involved do you think DO enjoy degrading and painful acts like that? Maybe 10%, 25%? I doubt very many more than that. So most women in the industry do it because it exploits their good looks and femininity, and they reap a very nice cash reward in a society where she would otherwise be subjugated to lower-class living conditions.

So if under communist society, without economic pressures like those that exist today to pressure women into doing things they don't want to do, then most women in the industry will flat out quit for good, and get a job doing something they enjoy.

The small minority of those that really do enjoy it can continue doing it. They're no longer being exploited, and are just doing something that they like to do.

No problem for me.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

My thoughts, simply and quickly: In a capitalist and patriarchal society, the sex industry necessarily represents a systematic assault on women.

In a better society, this would not be the case, but in current context consuming sex as a product (as pronography, lap dances, or whatever) constitutes an attack on women.

I saw a great t-shirt a little while ago - said "I'll be post-feminist in the post-patriarchy".

[Donnie]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2005, 04:39 PM
I'm sorry but your a certain type of person to want to be a porn star. I don't know that many people who become porn stars cuz they was hard up for cash(no pun).

Sorry to say, but people become porn stars like people become teachers, because they wanna do it. Prostitution is different.
I would say that most women/men do it because of either 2 reasons, one their cash flow is small or two it’s been their dream to become a porn star. But in the end they are still exploited because the system use's their bodies for a profit.

I don’t just think they do it because it’s been their dream to do it. There have been many cases of women being very unhappy about being in the sex industry, especially the stuff they have to do which can be very humiliating.

[Donnie]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2005, 04:39 PM
I'm sorry but your a certain type of person to want to be a porn star. I don't know that many people who become porn stars cuz they was hard up for cash(no pun).

Sorry to say, but people become porn stars like people become teachers, because they wanna do it. Prostitution is different.
I would say that most women/men do it because of either 2 reasons, one their cash flow is small or two it’s been their dream to become a porn star. But in the end they are still exploited because the system use's their bodies for a profit.

I don’t just think they do it because it’s been their dream to do it. There have been many cases of women being very unhappy about being in the sex industry, especially the stuff they have to do which can be very humiliating.

[KC]

I would say that most women/men do it because of either 2 reasons, one their cash flow is small or two it’s been their dream to become a porn star. But in the end they are still exploited because the system use's their bodies for a profit.

I don’t just think they do it because it’s been their dream to do it. There have been many cases of women being very unhappy about being in the sex industry, especially the stuff they have to do which can be very humiliating.

The system exploits them for a profit, they exploit the system for their livelihood.

[TC]

I'm sorry but your a certain type of person to want to be a porn star. I don't know that many people who become porn stars cuz they was hard up for cash(no pun).

Sorry to say, but people become porn stars like people become teachers, because they wanna do it. Prostitution is different.

I think its really unfair to say that. Just because a porn actor says she or he is enjoying it or something doesn't mean they actually are, its part of the advertisement and its central to the 'product'. Their customers wouldn't get off on it if they thought they thought the actors weren't genuinely enjoying it, it wouldn't be sexy so it wouldn't sell.

Its really not that uncommon to even use pornography to say, pay for education that would be otherwise unaffordable...the motivation is really not different from prostitution its just that people who do pornography typically aren't as destitute as say prostitutes on street corners.

I really don't think there are any little kids who dream of growing up to be a sex worker of any sort the way there are little kids that dream of growing up to be a teacher. Its more like, people get into porn thinking it will be a short term thing for money before they can get the resources to move onto what they really want to do...which some of them do and some of them can't because they've become accustomed to living at a standard they wouldn't be able to enjoy at another job they're qualified for.



My thoughts, simply and quickly: In a capitalist and patriarchal society, the sex industry necessarily represents a systematic assault on women.

In a better society, this would not be the case, but in current context consuming sex as a product (as pronography, lap dances, or whatever) constitutes an attack on women.


I completely agree that it exploits the individual women who work in porn but how does it represent a "systematic assult on women." Is it that it sexually objectifies attractive women, because you know, women sexually objectify attractive men too. Is gay porn by men, for men, also a sexual assult on men, or because they're men are they excused? Or, would male porn for straight women be a systematic assult on all men? Or do only women need to be protected from being sexually objectified, are men just you know, emotionally strong enough to take it? One of the most annoying and conservative things about radical feminism is that it takes a surprizingly paternalistic and demeaning attitude on female sexuality (or at least heterosexual sexuality).

I think that that crosses the line from a legitimate marxist criticism of the industry to a moralistic criticism used by both religious fundementalists and anti-marxist radical feminists.

By the logic you're could argue that female sex workers are 'agents of the patriarchy' because they participate not only in their own exploitation but in the exploitation of all women, which strikes me as just totally absurd and a way of enforcing christian morality on people by another name.

[coda]

It's interesting to debate it here.. but hopefully in communist society we will have a majority or a consenus about it. Maybe the porn people should decide themselves without money being the obvious incentive.

Right now I think the porn industry is much more Capitalistic then expolitive.. I am not sure how it works, so I don't know how much exploitation plays into it. if a sex worker consents to the things they are expected to do -- I personally don't see that as exploitation, even if she is being coerced by the money factor, than it is a reluctant acceptance, as long as she's not being forced...or unconsenting but under a contract obligations to perform. I don't know how it works.. anybody? do they argree to things on individual basis or is there a blanket contract where she gives up her right to consent? how does it work?

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

I completely agree that it exploits the individual women who work in porn but how does it represent a "systematic assult on women." Is it that it sexually objectifies attractive women, because you know, women sexually objectify attractive men too.

In patriarchal society, the situations of men and women within the sex industry are necessarily different. Sure, a woman might objectify an attractive man (or another attractive woman, in the same way a man might objectify another attractive men), but there are not systems and structures in place that hold women as objects for the benefit of men.


Is gay porn by men, for men, also a sexual assult on men, or because they're men are they excused?

While gay porn is still exploititive, it lacks the specifically exploititive characteristics of porn with females within a patriarchal society.



You know what, I'm not going any further with this - before accussing me of being anti-Marxist, get over yr backward liberal feminism.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Indigo
I don't know how it works.. anybody? do they argree to things on individual basis or is there a blanket contract where she gives up her right to consent? how does it work?

As I understand it, each performer does sign a contract...but "what she will actually do" in the film is verbally negotiated "on the set" itself. If she is a "hot property", she can set limits; if she's unknown, it's more likely that she will "do anything" to get and keep the job. Also, of course, the better looking she is, the more power she has in such negotiations. If well known or particularly attractive, she will earn $3,000 or more for about two days work; if unknown, about $1,000 or so. (Male performers make far less...perhaps a few hundred dollars and sometimes nothing it all -- they do it for "bragging rights".)

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Commie Rat]

I am against any form of explotation of any people (race,sex ect)
The sex industry is a tool of opression - if consenting people want to make movies then most defiantly i feel that they are free to do it.
I also believe that is you are anti-cappie - no price tags, then in theory you should support free love, which i do.

[KC]

The sex industry is a tool of opression - if consenting people want to make movies then most defiantly i feel that they are free to do it.
I also believe that is you are anti-cappie - no price tags, then in theory you should support free love, which i do.

Nobody's being oppressed. Both sides consent to it.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 04:27 AM

The sex industry is a tool of opression - if consenting people want to make movies then most defiantly i feel that they are free to do it.
I also believe that is you are anti-cappie - no price tags, then in theory you should support free love, which i do.

Nobody's being oppressed. Both sides consent to it.
Both sides appear to consent to any employer/employed relationship - the question is the circumstances under which the "consent" is coerced.

[*Hippie*]

(Male performers make far less...perhaps a few hundred dollars and sometimes nothing it all -- they do it for "bragging rights".)

I read Jenna Jameson's book a while ago. She said while men make less they also have to work much more. She also said once a guy gets into the porn world, he usually can not get a woman outside of the industry to date him, while it is different for a female porn actress. Jenna also said men had contracts long before women did, she was one of the first women ever to get contracted. This is because it is hard to find men who can perform to the standards needed, while women are considered "disposable" to the industry. I don't think most men have it any better than womyn in the industry, the only benefit I can see for a man over a woman in the job security if he can get a contract. Due to the competition, it is harder for a woman to get a contract and get that security and even get paid much.
I don't know about men doing it for bragging rights. I don't know anyone personally who would see that as anything to brag about, but I am sure there are some scum in the world who would think so.

[coda]

<<<earn &#036;3,000 or more for about two days work; if unknown, about &#036;1,000 or so.>>>

it doesn&#39;t sound like much at first.. but using cappie terms.. when you crunch numbers, &#036;3,000 it comes to about &#036;48,000 for a months worth of work.

those hardcore gangbangs are a hard day&#39;s night no doubt -- Invasive if nonetheless exploitive. But.. if it&#39;s consensual, if even only consenting to be exploited, than it is a bit different from the exploitation of the working poor consenting to job conditions that leave them barely eeking by.

[Soul Rebel]

reading a lot of these posts i find myself extremely annoyed and for many reasons. im gonna be quick in explaining why as i really have to get going (but i&#39;ll explain a little better later on)....

The first being that to be "anti-sex work" is typically to be "anti-feminist." To be anti-sex work you are taking a womans right away to choose if she will or will not be in the sex industry. It doesnt matter if you choose to believe it or not MANY MANY women choose to be in the sex industry all on their own. Ask Annie Sprinkle or Nina Hartley (who also has a Master&#39;s Degree in Nursing and works as a nurse). As anti-sex work you are also typically giving into the stereotypical notions of society as to what is correct and normal in a sexual relationship. To change a womans position, as well as that of a mans, you have to challenge these very ideas.

Also, those that choose to be in the industry do not choose it because they are hard on cash. There are many reasons to choose the sex industry as a profession. One being that it is in many ways empowering. You are challenging the role of womyn in sexual relations as well as the idea of sex altogether. One typically defies societies ideas on sexual relations in becoming a sex worker or being a client of a sex worker. Two, many feel that it is an important job in society. You are offering a very important service to someone; a service that not everyone is willing to cater to. As a sex worker people come to you to satisfy their personal needs, just like one goes to a botique asking for help choosing a dress.

Its also not just about sex. Many men, believe it or not, do not go to sex workers just for a good fuck or suck or hand job. Many go because they are lonely people. They need someones touch, comfort, and understanding and sex workers are often able to provide this. If you read the academic works available on sex work, many workers often discuss how they have many clients that just want to talk and nothing else. Sex workers sort of work like psychiatrists do. People come to them for example, to get over a fear of intimacy or to fulfill a sexual fantasy that they may be embarassed to bring up with someone else.

You have to remember folks that the sex industry is not entirely oppressing (the parts that are deal with smuggling children and womyn who did not chose it and got pulled in through lies). What is oppressing is the system in which we live which created stereotypes and laws to work against the sex industry and its workers. And the main reason why is to control womyns bodies (a historical event) and to control the economic aspect of it.

[Ownthink]

Not sure if this fits, but a poll taken from Fox News asked if "Child Pornography Should be Legalized?"....

"On July 29th 2005, Fox News ran a poll asking if child pornography should be treated as art and therefore legalized. Out of 76,984 who responded, 79% were in favor, 5% opposed, and 16% undecided"

What do YOU think?

[redstar2000]

I think those results sound screwy...could you link the story, please?

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[che-Rabbi]

That poll is fucked up and also possibly an accurate reflection of what kind of crazy motherfuckers watch Fox. Anyways, Im not opposed to pornography but how dare you call child pornography an art form. Children are not consenting adults, theyre just another pawn of capitalism.
Listen, im not saying we have to obliderate pornography but i do think that online porn should be banned. You want to see paris Hilton digitaly jack off Dustin Hoffman, go get that kind of shit at an adult video store, dont put it somewhere where a child could access it.

If the industry doesnt have enough integrity to pull it from the net , then put these right wingers to some use and unleash them on the pornographers.

What do you guys think?

[red_orchestra]

Hey, so thats your idea of a good society? The facts are that people enjoy forbidden concepts and subject matter. Its our darkside and its natural. So much of North america is puritan and fuckin&#39; dull. Go and take a trip to Mexico--- or for that matter Brazil. Sex is everywhere down there and the introduction to sex happens at an average age of 12 years. So honestly, its a cultural thing. Porn...well it follows the culture that its in..
this is the truth. Exploitation or not.

[che-Rabbi]

Red_Orchestra you completely missed what i said ,and ill even quote myself

[QUOTE] im not saying we have to obliderate pornography

[QUOTE]dont put it somewhere where a child could access it

[QUOTE] go get that kind of shit at an adult video store

So you see, im not opposed to pornographies existance and access of it, but i do feel that we let things like violence and sex run wild in society. A good society in my opinion is on where
A. We protect children and then let them make dessicions wich they feel are appropriate.
B. industries have a little bit more integrity and honor.

See, again, and this is why i hate capitalism, they prey on the young, they get them hooked on porn at a young age, like cigarettes and then ,as soon as children are old enough, they rush out to XXX land and spend until theyre hearts content. Its seems shallow, sick and disgraceful. We need to get a strangle hold on society, then we can talk about whats good.

[LSD]

Listen, im not saying we have to obliderate pornography but i do think that online porn should be banned.

Never gonna happen.


We protect children

Firstly, define "children, and secondly, why must they be "protected" from sex?

Sex is as natural as anything, and the idea that seeing two people fucking will "damage" children is beyond ludicrous.

[coda]

<<Children are not consenting adults, theyre just another pawn of capitalism.>>

I agree 10000000000% Child porn doesn&#39;t limit itself to just 12 years old adolescents, But also involves infants and toddlers and forms of rape and molestation. It is rape and molestation. I hope when society gets to the point of casually accepting as natural child violence, rape and exploitation --- we will thus decide to annhilate ourselves because we will have reached the point of extreme sadistic nihilism and have nothing to offer successive generations by means of anything. anyway, the use of psychological blackmail (i.e. you&#39;re a puritan) to win acceptance for molestation of children is pretty deviant in itself --- And if that attitude makes me a puritan -- then I am Cotton Mather then.


<<<The first being that to be "anti-sex work" is typically to be "anti-feminist." To be anti-sex work you are taking a womans right away to choose if she will or will not be in the sex industry.>>>

first, that is not true. there are tons of feminist scholars who are anti-sex work and see the sex industry as foremost above anything else, exploitative and a reinforcing of gender stereotypes/roles and exerting paternalistic hierarchial structures over women. Is the sex industry really giving a women sexual freedom or is it just a form of prostitution that is the oldest profession known to women because she wasn&#39;t seen as capable or intelligent enough to have any other kind of paying job.

Sexual freedom can&#39;t be industrialized. true sexual freedom and sexual equality doesn&#39;t have any elements of commodity in it -- instead it is an equal FREE exchange-----thus anything sexual that has to be paid for is neither free nor equal especially to the one having to pay for it and so that argument disqualifies itself.

I am not particulary oppossed to porn for those who want to do it and neither think it should be made illegal for adults or criminalized for those who practice or engage in it. on the other hand.. I don&#39;t think it&#39;s anti-feminist to view it as exploitative as most porn are showing and acting out extreme forms of submission and subordination. Still, for my own part, I encourage women to use their brains in life -- they are smarter than they are given due credit for. and I&#39;d rather have an Eileen Collins commanding the Space Shuttle representing the average women than a Jenna Jamison, as the first shows what women are capable of doing and contributing to society with some hard work and brain power. the latter takes no particular talent or intelligence.. hell, even I could do that -- any women can do that. so, I will always discourage women from using their bodies in manipulative and exploitative ways to get what they want in life.

to quote feminist scholar Catherine MacKinnon and Andrea Dworkin&#39;s work:

"What pornography DOES (her italics) go beyond it&#39;s context: it eroticizes hierarchy, it sexualizes inequality. It makes dominance and submission into sex."

[Soul Rebel]

first, that is not true. there are tons of feminist scholars who are anti-sex work and see the sex industry as foremost above anything else, exploitative and a reinforcing of gender stereotypes/roles and exerting paternalistic hierarchial structures over women. Is the sex industry really giving a women sexual freedom or is it just a form of prostitution that is the oldest profession known to women because she wasn&#39;t seen as capable or intelligent enough to have any other kind of paying job.

Sorry to tell ya but it is true. To take any choice away is anti-feminist. To say that womyn only go into it because they have nothing else, are stupid, or poor is anti feminist because it ignores and refuses the possiblity of choice, which is a central theme in feminism. There are many womyn who are involved in sex work and refuse to call themselves feminists because they feel the whole movement is looking down on them and working against them rather than with them.

The feminist scholars who state to be anti-sex work are a small minority. The only reason they seem like the larger portion of the feminist community is because they are the only feminists who get media attention because they are agreeing with general patriarchial ideas. This is what you call "liberal" and "radical-cultural" feminism. And hell, even womyn like Gloria Steinem (a liberal feminist)have spoken out against being anti-sex work because it causes more damage to womyn. While the sex industry continues to be illegal womyn will continue to be arrested, continue to get scammed by clients, killed and raped without any action being taken against the client (look what happened in canada), womyn will not be able to control their own wages, get health insurance, etc. THAT IS DANGEROUS, not being a sex worker or pro-sex.

Try looking beyond liberal feminism. Speak to radical-libertarian feminists, multicultural/global feminists, eco-feminists.... you will see that many, many are pro-sex and pro-sex work feminists. There isnt a written feminist bible, which is why there are so many debates within the feminist community and so many different types of feminists. But sadly, with all the differences, only one group gets attention.

If you want to see what is really out there on sex work read books and anthologies such as "Bare", "Whores and other Feminists," "Live Sex Acts," etc.


true sexual freedom and sexual equality doesn&#39;t have any elements of commodity in it -- instead it is an equal FREE exchange-----thus anything sexual that has to be paid for is neither free nor equal especially to the one having to pay for it and so that argument disqualifies itself.

Ahhh...such a hopeful statement, but unfortuantely nothing in our society is an equal exchange and nothing is ever pure and true. We as a society can not have true sexual freedom. To have that happen society would have to start all over and not develop a single idea as to what sex is. True sexual freedom, expression, and equality can only happen when there are no ideas on the topic or guidelines. Your argument demonstrates this perfectly because you clearly say what sex is and isnt. Your statements set up guidelines for what sex should be, which then places boundries on peoples sexuality and sex, which is prohibiting true sexual freedom.

And our own emotions in sex are a sort of commodity. The fact that i like to fuck because i like to get off says it all alone. When i go into a sexual relationship (which is always based on three things, which is called HER: Honesty, Equality, and Respect) and enjoy it it is because i am getting something out of it, let it be emotional or physical pleasure. The person who goes into it with me is doing it for the same reason. We always have sex for a reason- to get closer to someone, to have an orgasm, to get paid, to have a child, to make someone else jealous, to make up after a fight, etc. Plain and simple- we do it because we get something out of it and theres no way going around it.

And who says it shouldnt be paid for? Should we then go as far to say money shouldnt be wasted on buying vibrators, dildos, buttplugs, etc? Thats paying for a form of sex-im paying money to get myself off, but you wouldnt prohibit that would you? Same thing, if i feel like i want to make a living out of it or pay for sex then why shouldnt i? Who are you or anyone to tell me that my job as a sex worker or as a client isnt an equal relationship? Thats just a silly way to look at sex, that is has to pure and free. Sex is what we want it to be and to take that away is horrible. Once again it is patriarchal. Thats were the whole idea started- in the system and only to be able to control womyns sexuality.

You know...i find it very funny that you are saying all this stuff about how sex work is oppressive, but at the end your very own comments are oppressive...You basically are saying that womyn in porn are stupid, that they dont have any brains. Youre giving into a stereotype. How is that helpful to womyn? How is having sex as a living not using your brains? How does that make them any less intelligent than someone who is a doctor and may have a horrible sex life?

I will never understand that concept that being a sex worker makes you less intelligent.

And sex does take brains and intelligence. Sex is something you learn, have to be comfortable with, and patient with. It is a lifelong learning process. You have to be intune with yourself and your partner or partners, which a lot of people dont do and arent receptive to. Only a small percentage of people actually know how to fuck, which they learned through mistakes and triumphs. And it doesnt just involve the processing of fucking but of learning to accept ones body, often ignoring stereotypes and doing what you like, challenging gender roles, being honest, respectful, being creative (which let me tell ya, a hell of a lot of people just arent in their every day lives or especially in bed),etc.

And really, if you are going to quote anybody do not quote dworkin or mackinnon- hardly anybody takes their work seriously because it is complete bs, its all shot. They are seen as more dangerous to the movement than anything because their whole thing is "protect." And if youve ever read any of their work you should see that their work is actually very pornographic. I know im not the only person who has actually gotten turned on when reading their books and articles, rather than getting me all angry at the industry.

I really also want you to understand that im not saying the industry is perfect nor that it is entirely positive. For me to say that would be very naive of me and i would be putting many people in danger with those very thoughts. However, i choose to be for the industry because i realize how being against it actually works with the system rather than against it to improve peoples lives.

Also, for everyone else, rather than solely discuss how it is oppressive to womyn, why not discuss how it is racist? There are many issues, both positive and negative, within the industry that need to be discussed, not just the aspect that womyn play in it.

[STI]

I don&#39;t see the sex industry as being any different than any other industry, besides the fact that it is illegal. It&#39;s true that pornography exploits women, but, welcome to capitalism&#33; Everything exploits the workers who produce the product&#33; The only difference between a sex worker and a lumber worker is that the sex worker uses his/her sexual organs to produce the product, while the luber worker uses his/her arms to cut down the trees. Yes, sex working is degrading. Yes, it&#39;s exploitative. Yes, it&#39;s dehumanizing. But guess what. All work is.

The sex trade is consensual inasmuch as all work is.

Having the sex trade illegal only makes it harder on the people working in it. The fact that it&#39;s illegal is what makes violent pimps and mob control of the industry possible.

So, ya. I&#39;m totally cool with the sex industry and I think it should all be legalized, so long as it is between consenting adults.

I&#39;m reminded of Sin City, where the hookers were self-managed and heavily armed. How cool was that&#33;

[Eastside Revolt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2005, 07:06 PM
I&#39;m reminded of Sin City, where the hookers were self-managed and heavily armed. How cool was that&#33;
That would be dope&#33; :lol:

Around here, with the exception of the street workers, the biker gang run the whole show. :(

[coda]

Soul Rebel, There&#39;s alot here where you&#39;ve wrongly projected your own insights on my comments.

First:
<<To take any choice away is anti-feminist. To say that womyn only go into it because they have nothing else, are stupid, or poor is anti feminist because it ignores and refuses the possiblity of choice, which is a central theme in feminism. >>

I don&#39;t believe taking away "any" choice is anti-femininst. I don&#39;t believe in that kind of female supremacy, or privilege, but in equal rights for all people. "Any choice" is a whole slew of things. Should we have the right to exploit people in a factory or any other work setting just because we are female? do we have the right to abuse people? And where is the line drawn on supporting capitalist enterprises?

neither did I say woman get into the sex industry because they have nothing else, are stupid or poor. I said the sex industry reinforces those stereotypes and patriarchic social structures basically giving woman the "impression" of giving her sexual freedom whereas for the most part it is sexually limiting and sexually exploititive in its nature and where other people STILL have control of and are making decisions over her body.

The difference in our opinion is that you see the sex industry as an equal sexual relationship among all the participants and I see it as an unequal exploitatitive relationship based on profit motive, which I will expound on later in this post.

But to make clear, I said I don&#39;t particularly oppose porn, don&#39;t think it should be outlawed, criminalized or made illegal. (It is legal as it stands, with the exception of prostitution and child porn). I am primarily a Communist-anarchist, minus the radical feminism extent, so primarily see things in terms of exploitation and unequal associations. I am much more concerned with the plight of exploited workers who are unconsenting to their exploitation but are exploited by no choice of their own, but because the system has relegated to that position. Those are the people who are having their right of choice taken away. otherwise, I am pretty neutral in regards to people who willingly participate and cooperate in their own exploitation. At any rate, I won&#39;t be succumbing to the psychological blackmail of "You&#39;re with us or your against us and thus anti-feminist" mentality since I am a woman as well, and have an invested interest in woman&#39;s fair and equal treatment and rights, So, just as I wouldn&#39;t tell women they shouldn&#39;t participate in the porn industry--I also am not going to be told that I am anti-feminist because I don&#39;t rabidly support sex trade exploitation.

Now.... how does it exploit women? First it uses their bodies as a commodity,-- -a cash crop-- strictly to make money off. Secondly, It keeps those billions of dollars away from them, whom are"actual producers" of that sort of labor and again gives it to a boss and other various middle-men. Thirdly, unlike the lumberjack sombody mentioned, it uses their bodies in an INVASIVE manner -- poked, prodded, stuffed, pummeled, much like a contorted pinata. To put the lumberjack on equal terms with the female porn practioner, the lumber needs to be inserted into his/her&#39;s ass, vagina or mouth and have sex with it. fourthly, it exploits women by using them up to a certain age and than throws them away afterwards. It&#39;s very ageist oriented. Fifthly, it exploits them by almost certainly requiring that they are surgically modified to be esthetically appealling to their main audience. Sixthly, it exploits them by depersonalizing and dehumanizing them into objects and props with the objective that a third uninterested party will buy the product. Seventhly-- hardcore porn dictates woman to be submissive and subordinate and in many instances victimized, in unequal sexual power relations with the dominance resting generally in the hands of the male collaborator, and again having Capital and not her best interest in mind. 9thly, it reinforces those age old stereotypes and roles that women are best on the backs and not good for much else and best utilized toward those means.. 10th- it&#39;s a disguised patriarchy, with women&#39;s bodies being controlled by and for men&#39;s pleasures. and not just any man&#39;s pleasure ---but for countless hundreds or thousand of men she dosen&#39;t know and will never know or ever meet. 11th - if she wants to do that.. I have no objection, she has my blessing&#33; and I could probably go on and on here.

Getting shit on, pissed on, double anal gangbangs, extreme bondage, beaten and torture senarios, simulated rapes and murders, any kind of degradation fetish, and whatever else to that extent is nothing less than extreme sadomasochist exploitation and nothing at all resembling sexual freedom. Sex is not even carried out to it&#39;s equal climax, as getting "the shot" and getting it filmed is the only important thing. After all, Time is Money. &#036;&#036;&#036;&#036;&#036;&#036;&#036;&#036;&#036;&#036;

the bit here about sex "isn&#39;t pure and true".. and so on..... is a little on the condescending side....and as age and experience is a factor here, ---mine-- I won&#39;t even dignify a response.

Anyway...

<<<You know...i find it very funny that you are saying all this stuff about how sex work is oppressive, but at the end your very own comments are oppressive...You basically are saying that womyn in porn are stupid, that they dont have any brains. Youre giving into a stereotype. How is that helpful to womyn? How is having sex as a living not using your brains? How does that make them any less intelligent than someone who is a doctor and may have a horrible sex life? I will never understand that concept that being a sex worker makes you less intelligent. And sex does take brains and intelligence. Sex is something you learn, have to be comfortable with, and patient with. It is a lifelong learning process. You have to be intune with yourself and your partner or partners, which a lot of people dont do and arent receptive to. Only a small percentage of people actually know how to fuck, which they learned through mistakes and triumphs. And it doesnt just involve the processing of fucking but of learning to accept ones body, often ignoring stereotypes and doing what you like, challenging gender roles, being honest, respectful, being creative (which let me tell ya, a hell of a lot of people just arent in their every day lives or especially in bed),etc.>>>>

Again, you are projecting your own insights. I never said women in porn are stupid and don&#39;t have any brains or less intelligent. You&#39;re reading that into it. I said for my own part, I encourage women to use their intelligence, i.e. to add to the collective intellectual bank that is dominated thus far by men and to leave an idelible mark on the world and history. And I will continue to do so. Sex, a motor skill, does not have that intellectual quality -- Even the smallest of insects have a sex life. try as you may.. it&#39;s not that complicated and the dynamics within the porn industry even less so. Otherwise, I agree, relationships, can be very complicated.

<<<And really, if you are going to quote anybody do not quote dworkin or mackinnon- hardly anybody takes their work seriously because it is complete bs, its all shot. They are seen as more dangerous to the movement than anything because their whole thing is "protect." And if youve ever read any of their work you should see that their work is actually very pornographic. I know im not the only person who has actually gotten turned on when reading their books and articles, rather than getting me all angry at the industry.>>>>

Kate MacKinnon is not a liberal feminist and rejects that label, but her writings are rooted in classic Marxist femininism and is shaped in her political views from her work with the Black Panthers and other radical leftist movements. Those you cite are post-modern femininists, I believe, but I will check out their books. Thanks. I doubt, however, if my view of porn being any less exploititive or less capitalist will change however.
And nope, didn&#39;t get turned on reading MacKinnon --- found nothing really erotic in it at all. :):) and didn&#39;t get mad either.

[coda]

Oh yeah, and her books are read in many University feminist and gender studies classes. and also set out the framework for sexual harrassment in the workplace. so, she&#39;s taken serious in some respect.

[saint max]

Also, for everyone else, rather than solely discuss how it is oppressive to womyn, why not discuss how it is racist? There are many issues, both positive and negative, within the industry that need to be discussed, not just the aspect that womyn play in it.

I&#39;ll give that a shot. I&#39;m sorry I&#39;m going to tip-toe arround the racism inherent in sex-industry, i think it&#39;s rather obvious, but maybe this will address it a bit.

My problem with pornography is a problem with the marrige of all mediation and bianary gendered power-relationships + puritanicalism. That is to say, porn creates an image of &#39;truth,&#39; a representation of sex, and is elaborated by Fox, or NBC, or MTV, or any media. However, the liberatory aspects of hetero-normative wimmin and boys and fags and dykes and trannies gettin our thing on and gettin paid (or just having pervy sex for that matter) are also a dynamic to this discussion. Paying for sex is in fact, like most economic-relationships, fucked up, but survival. Sometimes i like my shitty job, becuase i get to listen to rock n&#39; roll music. Sometimes i like selling my ass to pervy websites becuase it excites me, i get to orgasm, and i get to play with power dynamics. In the end, however, i will never sell anything or work again, and hopefully never see another representation of nature. But, i&#39;m no purist, and for now I&#39;ll do what i need to get by and elaborate on my freedom.

On sex in general.
I am pretty sure that all of our desires are constructed and that pornography is a huge culprit. That is to say, I did&#39;nt live 16,000 yrs ago, so i&#39;m not sure what sex in wild nature looks like. I don&#39;t trust my own constructed desires much less modern feminism desires. I know only deconstruction and power-play in the bedroom, and for me this is the only thing that has made sex liberatory.

cheers,
-max

the book gynomite is a good time...
i don&#39;t care what that stupid sticker says, postfeminism (and transfeminism) is sweet.

[coda]

As far as racism, I think the porn industry operates on demand. As far as I know, there is every race, as well as every fetish imaginable out there.

Mine is a whole different experience. I became sexually liberated when I realized at about 18 y.o. that i had the right to be selective in my choice of partners. Prior to that I fucked every guy who wanted it --- and believe me--- they all wanted it&#33; Whether I even liked them or not.. because I thought that was what I was supposed to do. It was a big awakening for me to discover that I had the power over my own sexuality.

[Commie-Pinko]

I think that the sex industry should be fully legal.

From a Utilitarian perspective, I look at harms/benefits in a cost and benefit analysis. Pornography makes people happy, it makes money, which promotes the business economy, and it kills/physically harms no one.

The people who demand the material get what they want, and the people who perform get what they want. One gets payment for services, the other gets pleasure. That&#39;s a good symbiotic relationship. As long as the pornographic encounters are consentual, I find nothing wrong with it. I think people should make as much money off of it as possible, because it benefits everyone involved.

I don&#39;t think child pornography is good, because that&#39;s a totally different ballgame. It deals with incompetents and irrational minors not capanble of


As for other types of sex industries (IE. Adult stores), I find them hilariously beneficial to society. People need an outlet, and porn and adult "toys" provide that amusement. For adults, sex is a game, and these help that game along. It&#39;s a good business, again, as long as everything&#39;s consentual.

As for prostitution, there&#39;s no legal reason why one should not allow it. In fact, making it illegal is a problem. It needlessly clogs prisons, wastes the time of police forces who should be going after dangerous people, and it denies the ability of the individual to do as he pleases with his body while harming no one. YOu have every right to sell your body as a service to another if you feel it is appropriate to do so, and by doing so, you will not harm anyone else. Hell, I would imagine you could make a pretty penny off of it.

Of course, the State should regulate the industry to provide for purity of service and education so that there is minimal damage to the individuals. A better educated prostitute is more beneficial for everyone. Making it legal would free up police time, and it would probably hurt the black market that crops up when you make it illegal. Pimps would lose a lot of power if what they were doing was completely legal and regulated. There would be no huge, secret demand to be exploited by unsavoury pimps. Women wouldn&#39;t need to run to such scoundrels. It would be legal.


I don&#39;t belive porn creates an image of truth. Perhaps it does for mentally retarded people or those who are so mentally inferior that they cannot tell the difference between reality and fantasy, but not for rational individuals. If you cannot tell the diffrence between porn and reality, then you have many problems the State should deal with involving white padded cells and orderlies.

Our society is filled with individuals who have problems, and when those people do something wrong, other "objects" are put up as blames, instead of their own actions. Porn made me do it. Videogames made me do it. Tv told me to do it. That&#39;s nonsense and an excuse people conveniently use.

[Hiero]

Try looking beyond liberal feminism.

You should take you own advice.

What you are adovating is liberal/bourgoeis feminism, that because a women chooses to do something they are not explioted. This is anti-marxist because it takes the individual out of context of society. It claims that the individual makes chooses without the presure of society.

The sex industry grew out of the patriarchal society, i don&#39;t think that at one point in the feminist movement a women jump up and said "i want to be recorded fucking and sucking so many men can jack off".

Face facts, the sex industry grew out of male fantasy, male pleasure seeking, and the capitalist economy.

If we are going to call ourselves Marxist, then how about we anaylse everything as Marxist, rather then being individualistic about what we want and what we think.

[Commie-Pinko]

You do know that there is male porn and gay porn too, right? Are you saying that that exploits females?

[Black Dagger]

I don&#39;t see the sex industry as being any different than any other industry, besides the fact that it is illegal. It&#39;s true that pornography exploits women, but, welcome to capitalism&#33; Everything exploits the workers who produce the product&#33; The only difference between a sex worker and a lumber worker is that the sex worker uses his/her sexual organs to produce the product, while the luber worker uses his/her arms to cut down the trees. Yes, sex working is degrading. Yes, it&#39;s exploitative. Yes, it&#39;s dehumanizing. But guess what. All work is.

The sex trade is consensual inasmuch as all work is.

Having the sex trade illegal only makes it harder on the people working in it. The fact that it&#39;s illegal is what makes violent pimps and mob control of the industry possible.

So, ya. I&#39;m totally cool with the sex industry and I think it should all be legalized, so long as it is between consenting adults.

Completely agree, well said.



The only difference between a sex worker and a lumber worker is that the sex worker uses his/her sexual organs to produce the product, while the luber worker uses his/her arms to cut down the trees.

Bit of a slip there&#33; :lol:

[STI]

Bit of a slip there&#33;

:angry: :angry: :angry:

I blame the system.

[coda]

Well, then you must support all capitalist and corporate businesses then and the capitalists themselves.