Country of Birth determines nationality ?

[TheKingOfMercy]

Two quotes.

"Yes, I was born in Ireland, but being born in a stable does not make One a horse" - The Duke of Wellington, 1814

"They were born in Britain yes, but would me being born in China make me Chinese ?" - BNP leader Nick Griffin

The Duke of Wellington, speaking with reference to his (apparently socially shamefull) Irish birthplace. BNP leader Nick Griffin speaking when asked how he could support deportation of asian-descent people born in Britain.

I'd be interested to hear opinions on these, as I posted the same topic on a non-political site, and I'd like to see how responses differ.

[Black Dagger]

Firstly, it must be make it clear that i oppose nation-states, nationalism, patriotism etc. That said, it seems logical that if you are born in a country, you live there, and you have citizenship in that country, that is your nationality (if you wish to identify as such). Ethnicity and nationality are different constructions. I can be ethnically African, but my nationality can be British. If you, or anyone else is asserting that is not the case, that is that to be British you must be of a certain ethnicity, than that is not only illogical, but racist.

Moreover, this is largely up to the individual. For example, my partner was born and lived in South Africa until she was 16, she identifies as a South African, not an Australian, despite now living in Australia and being and having Australian citizenship.

[TheKingOfMercy]

Good, you made the distinction between ethnicity and nationality.

I would say though, as a technical point, you can be ethnically British, as Britain is an ancient tribal name for the area. It's not exactly common to find that kind of Briton anymore though.

Being a British citizen, if of course, open to anyone the government says can be, which is fair, Anyone can be British by nationality as opposed to being British by ethnicity (I hate this language for having double meanings for almost everything).

You said you opppose nations, nationalism, patriotism and all that, a question, would you also oppose a person claiming their heritage ? Like me, for example, I never claim to be ethnically British, because my ancestors were saxons, so thus I'm, English. Is that a bad thing ?

[The Feral Underclass]

TheKingsOfMercy: What is your position on Eugenics and Jewish people?

[TheKingOfMercy]

Got nothing against them why ? And what does eugenics mean ?

[ste_17]

i believe that this is a bit of a tricky one. I think that if you are born in a country, work or live in that country and have been brought up to believe you are of that nationality, (not ethnicity) then you should have no other reason to change your national status.

Also, the BNP leader Nickk Griffin may say that , but im sure if he wanted to-he could live in China and be made a citizen, like many immigrants have done in Britain. He should realise that it is Labour and the Tories that allowed it all.

[Taiga]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2005, 03:24 PM
And what does eugenics mean ?
Eugenics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics)

[zinc]

Well if you replace everybody in Britian with non-Whites but they have British culture are they British, theres a nice one.

[redstar2000]

Probably most of humanity identifies emotionally with some ethnic/cultural group, some nationality, some religion, etc.

To "line up" with "people like us" seems to be "just plain common sense" and goes largely unquestioned.

But looked at objectively, none of those ideas can withstand critical examination...they are at one and the same time impossibly vague and totally arbitrary.

While I have little choice but to intellectually recognize these phenomena as part of social reality, I confess that in a "gut sense", I've never really comprehended the appeal.

I am deaf to the call to defend "what it means to be an American". If someone mentioned "white pride" in my presence, I would dismiss him as a lunatic.

There is a remark attributed to Lenin that is much more in line with my own feelings about this stuff.

What is your nationality?

I am a communist.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Clarksist]

I believe Nationality and Ethnicity are different. You can be a citizen of a predominantly white country, and be black. I don't see the point in having a nationality or ethnic background as it doesn't mean anything about the person.

But many people here probably feel that. (I'd hope)

[Taiga]

That's an interesting question.
For example, me. I'm half-Moldovan and half-Ukrainean. And I live in Moldova. But I don't feel truly Moldovan or Ukrainean, because my first language is Russian and I belong to Russian culture much more than to Moldovan or Ukrainean. But I don't feel Russian either. Actually I don't feel like anybody. I'm totally confused about my belonging, though my physical nationality and citizenship are well-determined. And, you know, I'm perfectly fine about it. I don't really care.

[zinc]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2005, 05:54 AM
That's an interesting question.
For example, me. I'm half-Moldovan and half-Ukrainean. And I live in Moldova. But I don't feel truly Moldovan or Ukrainean, because my first language is Russian and I belong to Russian culture much more than to Moldovan or Ukrainean. But I don't feel Russian either. Actually I don't feel like anybody. I'm totally confused about my belonging, though my physical nationality and citizenship are well-determined. And, you know, I'm perfectly fine about it. I don't really care.

Yes but from my perspective it is something you have lost, if you get me. A feeling of community gets more appealing as you age I think and nationalism serves that desire quite well. This is more pragmatic than say a socialist utopian moral judgement of nationalism.

[KC]

A feeling of community

A feeling of community is a thing of the past. Except in REALLY small towns. Crime has destroyed it.

[El-Bortukali]

My personal view on nationality has been changing over the years. Firstly i dind't gave a rats ass about nationality, i saw myself a citzen of the world and that was basicly it.
Yet over the years i seem to have aquired some "national pride" so to say, i see myself as a Portuguese, and i prefer my mothercountry over any other, it is where i grew up, were i have my friends, my family and all that is dear for me...
Yet i cannot stop to think that the way is a unity between the proletariat of all countries, yet i differ from the old Marxist idea that the proletariat does not have a country.


Personaly i love my country, i see my patriotism as a way to repell the "Eurofication" that Europe is suffering right now with all this referenduns about the european constitution and all... I see my patriotism as a way to consolidate the right of independence that is inherent to all free people's, i could not see myself rulled by a state other than my own national state, no mather how irresponsible that state may be it is still the state that we elected.

Do not see this as a somewhat stalinist aproach on nationality, i do not follow in blinding cerimonies of national bajulation and adoration, yet i cannot stop the feeling that Portugal is my country to wich i feel directly connected and integrated...

To sum up, for me having my nationality, and the process of keeping my own national sovereignety is very important, as important as the need of a revolution...

[Capital Punishment]

There's nothing wrong with having pride in your nation. I myself am a patriot. I love my country, but I still strive for change in the government.
It isn't so much a dividing factor but an identifying factor that makes people different (therefore making life more interesting).

[cormacobear]

How many generations does it take to be Canadian?

There is a difference between someone born soemwhere while there perants were visiting and those born in a family with no plans to treturn to their more native soil.

I beleive national borders can be an efficient means of dividing up regions for administration but shouldn't be fought over.

Culure and heritage is the preservation of ones history and extended family traditions. Well we know that those who forget their history are destined to repeat it. So culture gives us a comforting sense of stability in a random universe, but is again too trivial a matter to fight over.

[zinc]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2005, 05:29 PM

A feeling of community

A feeling of community is a thing of the past. Except in REALLY small towns. Crime has destroyed it.

I agree, inner city developments are a horrific way to get people close. Working class communities were destroyed this way, but thats not a socialist view on my part, they never cared for comunism anyway.

[zinc]

Originally posted by Capital [email protected] 14 2005, 06:30 PM
There's nothing wrong with having pride in your nation. I myself am a patriot. I love my country, but I still strive for change in the government.
It isn't so much a dividing factor but an identifying factor that makes people different (therefore making life more interesting).

Didnt Twain say, 'Loyalty to my country always, loyalty to my country, sometimes'

[zinc]

Nationalism is also effective in rallying citizens to causes with motives for their good like getting oil in Iraq that they may morally oppose but which is for their good.

[chaval]

as far as ethnicity and culture go, i think it is crucial for their protection and continuation. all those who say no , well in that case wouldnt you say taht all those native americans who continue to try to live in their communities, preserve culture and claim land should be completely ignored and assimilated to the mainstream culture of macdonalds and britney spears? what a horrible horrible nightmare that would be.

people need identity and traditions. a communist society could not elimintate that. people would either not allow it or they would just really hate it i think. everyone being exactyly the same...everyone being uniform...taht sounds like something out of 1984. i know my latino culture and background bring great joy and happiness to me. it give me something to be proud of, something to identify with and even a moral obligation to help my fellow countrymen.

[KC]

I agree, inner city developments are a horrific way to get people close. Working class communities were destroyed this way, but thats not a socialist view on my part, they never cared for comunism anyway.

This has nothing at all to do with socialism or communism, and I'm not just talking about the inner city. Everywhere in the united states a sense of community has died. (The exception being really small towns where everybody knows everybody else).

[Taiga]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2005, 01:56 AM

people need identity and traditions. a communist society could not elimintate that. people would either not allow it or they would just really hate it i think. everyone being exactyly the same...everyone being uniform...taht sounds like something out of 1984.
WTF?
Communism does not mean everybody should be absolutely the same. You get it wrong.
Who told you that a Communist society wants to eliminate the identity? :huh:

By the way, to be proud of your nationality or country is as absurd as to be proud that you were born on Sunday. Though I have nothing against national traditions as long as they don't say that you are better because you are American or French, etc.

EDIT: Typo

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Lazar
Everywhere in the United States a sense of community has died.

That is not completely true...but there's certainly a lot of truth to it.

An interesting work on this subject is Robert D. Putnam's Bowling Alone: the Collapse and Revival of American Community.

The problem is that traditional communities have come to be seen as stifling...and so more and more people have retreated into isolation. We don't have any "models" for a "liberated" community yet...and we certainly don't want to go back to the old model -- where everyone thought it perfectly legitimate to sniff and snoop into the most intimate of your personal affairs.

I think a new model of community is possible...and perhaps the internet will teach us how to do that.

But it's going to take a while.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Mujer Libre]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2005, 04:47 PM


An interesting work on this subject is Robert D. Putnam's Bowling Alone: the Collapse and Revival of American Community.

The problem is that traditional communities have come to be seen as stifling...and so more and more people have retreated into isolation. We don't have any "models" for a "liberated" community yet...and we certainly don't want to go back to the old model -- where everyone thought it perfectly legitimate to sniff and snoop into the most intimate of your personal affairs.

I think a new model of community is possible...and perhaps the internet will teach us how to do that.

But it's going to take a while.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif
For sure. I had a lecture (or a series of them... don't really remember) on social relationships within a community and health. Bowling Alone was referenced repeatedly actually.

Anyway, the main conclusion of the lecture was that people who have a strong social network in which they feel like an equal, respected partner are the healthiest people, physically and emotionally. It seems obvious, but isn't something we think about a lot.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Toward a world in which we identify with something more real than "nation" or "ethnicity"!

('scuse my sloganeering. ;))

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2005, 03:36 PM
Nationalism is also effective in rallying citizens to causes with motives for their good like getting oil in Iraq that they may morally oppose but which is for their good.
Yes Mr. Hitler, democracy is a waste of time indeed. Fooling people into their "best interests" makes perfect sense. Since people are all stupid, we should have small groups of people in power because they are obviously immune to stupidity and only care about everyone else's well being. Sometimes you even have to kill whole villages of people because they just want what is bad for them :rolleyes: