I am Now 100% Atheist

[Clarksist]

I used to have a great friend. He was in the top tier of my friends. We absolutely loved each other. We treasured each other, and we could lighten up each others day by just being together. And when we did get together we partied. We smoked pot (lots of it) and countless cigarettes, smoked peyote, if there was something illegal that got you high, we probably did it.

On the 4th of July on of our friends was talking about "hooking us up". We were so happy to here this. We went home smoked some big bowls and had a great night as we used to always do.

That morning we had band practice (this friend was/is the bassist). We had a great practice till about halfway when my friend gets a call on his cell. Its his girlfriend saying that his mom is on his way to get him, and his mom is pissed. After a frantic run around of flushing empty cig packs, cashed bowls, and stems and seeds sure enough his mom came and got him.

That was the last time I saw him. July 5th.

The next day my mom got a call from someone and confronted me about knowing about my habit. I had to admit to it, and I did. My friend was in deep shit. We are talking really deep shit. And that's when our friendship unravelled.

My great friend. Someone I couldn't love anymore went to the "darkside". And by darkside I mean Christianity. After days of not getting a hold of him I finally called him yesterday and found out the disturbing news. He had lost "band priveleges" for possibly ever, and he had decided to dedicate himself to his church.

I got a gigantic knot in my stomach. It just didn't go away. All day and now, as its 5 am and I still can't stop thinking about it, I am sickened. He used to be just about as close as a best friend as you can get. And he will never be that same friend I once cherished. He will now be a friend, a good friend maybe. But unless this is just a phase, that friend I loved so dearly is gone forever.

I feel that he died.

I can't stop questioning my beliefs. And all I can come up with is that how can a loving and compassionate God create creatures with free will, just to watch them fuck up. In the direct words of my friend's from the call yesterday, "we can still write about communism together, and do all that. But my dedication will have to mainly be about God now."

WHAT THE FUCK!!!???

This post is three things:

1.) A question of how to get my friend back.
2.) A working out of built up frustration.
3.) Why did God make us equipped with free will, just to check if we'll fuck up?

I am in desperate need of answers.

[Black Dagger]

1.) A question of how to get my friend back.

Read up on atheism and practice your arguments, engage him in debate and try to undermine his religious belief, ie. turn him away from the church.



3.) Why did God make us equipped with free will, just to check if we'll fuck up?

This question is redundant, see your thread title.

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2005, 04:02 AM
I used to have a great friend. He was in the top tier of my friends. We absolutely loved each other. We treasured each other, and we could lighten up each others day by just being together. And when we did get together we partied. We smoked pot (lots of it) and countless cigarettes, smoked peyote, if there was something illegal that got you high, we probably did it.

On the 4th of July on of our friends was talking about "hooking us up". We were so happy to here this. We went home smoked some big bowls and had a great night as we used to always do.

That morning we had band practice (this friend was/is the bassist). We had a great practice till about halfway when my friend gets a call on his cell. Its his girlfriend saying that his mom is on his way to get him, and his mom is pissed. After a frantic run around of flushing empty cig packs, cashed bowls, and stems and seeds sure enough his mom came and got him.

That was the last time I saw him. July 5th.

The next day my mom got a call from someone and confronted me about knowing about my habit. I had to admit to it, and I did. My friend was in deep shit. We are talking really deep shit. And that's when our friendship unravelled.

My great friend. Someone I couldn't love anymore went to the "darkside". And by darkside I mean Christianity. After days of not getting a hold of him I finally called him yesterday and found out the disturbing news. He had lost "band priveleges" for possibly ever, and he had decided to dedicate himself to his church.

I got a gigantic knot in my stomach. It just didn't go away. All day and now, as its 5 am and I still can't stop thinking about it, I am sickened. He used to be just about as close as a best friend as you can get. And he will never be that same friend I once cherished. He will now be a friend, a good friend maybe. But unless this is just a phase, that friend I loved so dearly is gone forever.

I feel that he died.

I can't stop questioning my beliefs. And all I can come up with is that how can a loving and compassionate God create creatures with free will, just to watch them fuck up. In the direct words of my friend's from the call yesterday, "we can still write about communism together, and do all that. But my dedication will have to mainly be about God now."

WHAT THE FUCK!!!???

This post is three things:

1.) A question of how to get my friend back.
2.) A working out of built up frustration.
3.) Why did God make us equipped with free will, just to check if we'll fuck up?

I am in desperate need of answers.
1. a. Find out why he took this position.
b. Ask him what has changed for this to happen
c. reconcile those factors by discussing material evidence, religious institutional manipulation and bring up many questions for him on the inconsistencies of religious values as compared to practice. Be interested and ready to concede points both ways and make sure to let him draw conclusions for himself.

2. I don't know what would work best here... life is very frustrating. Just keep in mind that you need proof for a logical argument; you must have material evidence for the existence of god; otherwise it is a baseless assumption. So as I know them, the material conditions are on your side and if your friend was the great guy you said he was, he should recognize that easily enough ;)

3. I don't believe in free will because we cannot tell what the ultimate outcome of our actions will be; we are acting on the perceived best action according to our ideological positions. I haven't seen people act other than by their biological nature and conditioning and if that is "free will," then free will has very little meaning (being nothing like what the phrase implies).

Well; I wrote this fast so it may be a little sloppy :hammer:

[Sir Aunty Christ]

I sort of know where you're coming from Clarksist. I have a friend too who used to be about as Atheist as me. For a few years we argued with a Christian friend of ours that his faith was built on shaky foundations and indulged in some casual and not-so-casual blaspheming just to piss him off. But recently she has become a Christian.

I don't intend to give her up as a friend or even drift away from her because, knowing her, she'll be exactly the same and won't be drawn towards fundametalism/evangelicalism.

You need to consider if your friend is likely to go down that path and as Elect Marx said, find out how he came to the decision after which you can weigh up is it really worth throwing away a friendship that's lasted for years just because you're on different paths.

[The Sloth]

clarksist,

i understand where you're coming from. at the same time, it makes little sense for you to stop being friends with somebody on account of their (false) religious beliefs. criticize him -- and criticize him often -- but remember, the only difference between him and yourself is your understanding.

one of my best friends is a deeply religious christian. when we lived in the same state, i was a religious christian as well. of course, i am now an atheist, yet our relationship still didn't change.

what is interesting to me is the fact that your friend was caught by his family doing all of this good shit (well, to them it's 'bad shit'), and then, 'suddenly,' he is a born-again christian. 'suddenly' sounds suspicious. to me, it seems as if his family coerced him into this non-sense with a few threats. if he was an atheist, it's very unlikely that this was his own and only his own decision. he might still want to be in band, he might still want to be able to go out. in that case, his family could have told him, 'if you ever want to see your friends again, you better get your ass to church!'

i suggest that you have a few talks with him. take his offer up. go and write about communism, and strike up a conversation. ask him exactly what happened in those few days you didn't see each other.

[More Fire for the People]

It's not your fault he joined the most screwed up branch of Christianity he could find. Find a better one, Christian or not he betrayed your trust, probably after being brainwashed by conservative hardliners.

Also,

Genesis 1:29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.
I'm sure Moses would have left out marijuana if God didn't want people to smoke it.

[Clarksist]

Thank you all very much for your input on this matter.


I don't intend to give her up as a friend or even drift away from her because, knowing her, she'll be exactly the same and won't be drawn towards fundametalism/evangelicalism.


But thats probably what you though about her being drawn towards christianity.

The thing is that me and him had such a deep connection on the anti-religious thing.


what is interesting to me is the fact that your friend was caught by his family doing all of this good shit (well, to them it's 'bad shit'), and then, 'suddenly,' he is a born-again christian. 'suddenly' sounds suspicious. to me, it seems as if his family coerced him into this non-sense with a few threats. if he was an atheist, it's very unlikely that this was his own and only his own decision. he might still want to be in band, he might still want to be able to go out. in that case, his family could have told him, 'if you ever want to see your friends again, you better get your ass to church!'


You're very right. His sister did the same thing where once the family found out about her "less virtuous" activities she dedicated herself to the church. But I could always tell when he was bullshitting. And... I don't know it justs feels so sick in my stomach.

We have a gig tonight, and we have to have our rythm guitarist pick up bass for this one. I'm gonna miss him onstage so bad.

BTW, all your input has been awesome guys.

[Publius]

1.) A question of how to get my friend back.

It depends.

One the one hand, you could try to tear apart his beliefs, but what kind of friend would that make you?

It's extremely selfish to try to change his beliefs.

How would you feel if he started prosletyzing to you?

You would hate it.

Try to just avoid the issue as much as possible if you can't resolve it.

First though, talk to him about it.


3.) Why did God make us equipped with free will, just to check if we'll fuck up?

Because he's evil.

He 'supposedly' had the power to make everything perfect for us, but he didn't, and therefore he is evil, or at least malfeant.

Here's some logic:

God is a perfect being.

A perfect being can only create perfect things (A perfect painter would only create perfect paintings)

God's creation is NOT perfect (Pain, death, suffering, the existence of Satan etc.)

Therefore, God is not perfect

Therefore, God is not real

If they try to give you the whole "God's creation IS perfect, because it's his creation" tell them that's circular logic and doesn't stand up to reason.

If they say it is perfect, they are lying bullshitters because this world sucks and they know it.

If anything else should come up, I'll confront it.

[riverotter]

LOL, Publius :D

I agree that you need to respect your friend, but if you love him, and if you have the kind of relationship that won't be torn apart by talking about religion, I think there are ways to approach the issue that can actually strengthen your relationship.

First off, always, always treat your friend and his ideas with respect. He believes them for reasons that seem compelling. Respect that.

Then be sure you've done your homework and know what the hell it is you're talking about. Read the bible. It's worth it. Read some criticisms on the bible - and apologetics as well. Read with an open mind and see what's good or true. Of course, the idea that there is a god is complete bollocks, but there may be other ideas that are valid. Much of it is going to be wrong (even evil - like the support of slavery, misogyny, terrorism, etc.) - point that out, too. Look at the history of religion - it really is the "opiate of the masses". Give him concrete examples.

I know several people who are religious to different degrees and I'm always having to pick and choose my battles, decide on approaches. I generally avoid religious discussion with my born again evangelical acquaintances (unless they bring it up, then I figure it's open season), but my newly converted progressive christian friend and I often talk about religion.

The most important thing to remember is respect, tho. I mean, you care for this guy, right? Treat him that way... and that includes winning him away from bullshit ideas.

[Don't Change Your Name]

Kick him between the legs.

That will teach him a lesson

[Loknar]

well of course your friends mom is going to be pissed, she found out her kid is smoking weed.

what did your parents to you when they found out?


Your friends mom is really feeling like she has failed as a mother, she is religious and wants her son to become more involved so he doesn’t continue to smoke weed.

And I’ve been through the same crap where I was told I couldn’t see my friend for some reason or another. It usually wears off I wouldn’t worry about it.

As to smoking pot, I recommend you don’t do it because it is a gateway drug.

[Clarksist]

what did your parents to you when they found out?


My mom wasn't so pissed (she smoked a lot in college). But she just "laid down the law" about me not being able to smoke as long as I was under her roof. But other then that I haven't been punished. I almost feel guilty because my friends mom was absolutely infuriated.


And I’ve been through the same crap where I was told I couldn’t see my friend for some reason or another. It usually wears off I wouldn’t worry about it.


That's good to know.


As to smoking pot, I recommend you don’t do it because it is a gateway drug.


This "gateway" I'm always told about is really not correct. It is the fact that pot is illegal that forces it to be a gateway drug. But if so, that boundary has been passed by me, many many times.

[Loknar]

My mom wasn't so pissed (she smoked a lot in college). But she just "laid down the law" about me not being able to smoke as long as I was under her roof. But other then that I haven't been punished. I almost feel guilty because my friends mom was absolutely infuriated.

I hope you can understand why she would be angry. I promise you she is burrying her face in the pillow ever night because she found out.



This "gateway" I'm always told about is really not correct. It is the fact that pot is illegal that forces it to be a gateway drug. But if so, that boundary has been passed by me, many times.

People just don’t use coke right off the bat. First it's weed, then it's acid, so on and so on.....

i personally don’t care if people smoke pot for any reason. should it be legal, i don’t care, though it could be good tax revenue (like with cigs). but it has to end somewhere. I wouldn’t want heroine legal.

and I am guessing you've taken ecstasy, tripped on acid ect. just don’t take something that fucks with your brain in a physical sense. coke literally changes your brain chemistry to crave it, and it is why so many people ruin them selves doing it.

[Sir Aunty Christ]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2005, 06:30 PM

I don't intend to give her up as a friend or even drift away from her because, knowing her, she'll be exactly the same and won't be drawn towards fundametalism/evangelicalism.


But thats probably what you though about her being drawn towards christianity.
I'm pretty sure that at least part of the reason why she became a Christian is because she's been going out with a Christian for a few years and is now engaged to him. Therefore I'm not 100% surprised she went down that road but I hoped that she wouldn't.

[Publius]

Saying weed is a gateway drug to crack is like saying milk is a gateway drug to pot.

[redstar2000]

Some general advice (for what it's worth :P)...

1. If you are going to use illegal drugs, be careful and don't get caught. Hide your stash well and clean up after yourself...leave no trace of your activities.

2. Always deny any charge against you unless there is direct physical evidence against you...and then admit only to the minimum; e.g., "it was just this once", etc. If the only evidence against you is the word of some associate of yours, then say they are lying. Hang tough!!!

3. People who "convert" to Christianity (or any superstition) under pressure don't necessarily "mean it". If I found myself facing prison, I'd take a Bible with me to my trial and ostentatiously read from it during the proceedings. We are not obligated to be honest with our oppressors (including parents).

4. It's certainly possible to have friends who are religious...provided you never discuss the subject with them at all. If you do bring it up or they bring it up and you allow yourself to get drawn into the discussion, then your friendship is at an end. People who are serious about religion view dissent as a personal attack on them.

Good luck!

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/223.gif

[Sir Aunty Christ]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2005, 02:51 PM
People who are serious about religion view dissent as a personal attack on them.
I disagree with you there. I've found that people who are serious about their religion are happy to discuss it because they are confidant in their faith. The ones who view dissent as a personal attack are either unsure of themselves or don't know understand enough to be serious.

[KC]

Saying weed is a gateway drug to crack is like saying milk is a gateway drug to pot.

For once we agree!

[Clarksist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2005, 02:51 PM
2. Always deny any charge against you unless there is direct physical evidence against you...and then admit only to the minimum; e.g., "it was just this once", etc. If the only evidence against you is the word of some associate of yours, then say they are lying. Hang tough!!!
That's one thing my friend didn't do.

As for the gateway drug argument. Pot is the gateway drug, but usually only to people who would do the hardcore drugs anyway. Its too tough of an assumption to prove. Because not everyone that does pot does other drugs.

[Publius]

That's one thing my friend didn't do.

As for the gateway drug argument. Pot is the gateway drug, but usually only to people who would do the hardcore drugs anyway. Its too tough of an assumption to prove. Because not everyone that does pot does other drugs.

That makes it invalid.

It's just like saying milk is a gateway drug.

[dyanamic]

I was born and bred in Christianity. Ever since I took up Modern History in senior high (I dropped out recently), I became intrigued by communism through Che. While I understand why people are cynical about religion, I don't see how this difference in opinion could seriously damage relationships given that discussions take place in respect for each other.

By the way, smoking weed usually leads to schizophrenia later in life. You can't believe how much my friend regrets it. Marijuana isn't as soft as y'all think.

[Black Dagger]

By the way, smoking weed usually leads to schizophrenia later in life.

Crock. Of. Shit. Smoking weed may trigger schizophrenia in a person- already genetically disposed to it. "Usually leads to" is just a flat-out lie.

[dyanamic]

Originally posted by Black [email protected] 11 2005, 08:20 AM

By the way, smoking weed usually leads to schizophrenia later in life.

Crock. Of. Shit. Smoking weed may trigger schizophrenia in a person- already genetically disposed to it. "Usually leads to" is just a flat-out lie.
Sure thing but hey, any weedster's entitled to take that chance.

[Mujer Libre]

Originally posted by dyanamic+Jul 11 2005, 12:14 PM--> (dyanamic @ Jul 11 2005, 12:14 PM)
Black [email protected] 11 2005, 08:20 AM

By the way, smoking weed usually leads to schizophrenia later in life.

Crock. Of. Shit. Smoking weed may trigger schizophrenia in a person- already genetically disposed to it. "Usually leads to" is just a flat-out lie.
Sure thing but hey, any weedster's entitled to take that chance. [/b]
And eating smoked fish may give me stomach cancer, but I still do it... ;)

[Capital Punishment]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2005, 02:51 PM
If you do bring it up or they bring it up and you allow yourself to get drawn into the discussion, then your friendship is at an end. People who are serious about religion view dissent as a personal attack on them.
This is not necessarily true if you're friendship is deep enough. I question a kid in my school constantly about religion, and he isn't a very close friend, but he doesn't take it personally because he is in over his head in Christianity.

My advice would be to ask him if he is 100% devoted and if he truly believes. If he isn't, then you can work from there.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by dyanamic+Jul 11 2005, 10:14 PM--> (dyanamic @ Jul 11 2005, 10:14 PM)
Black [email protected] 11 2005, 08:20 AM

By the way, smoking weed usually leads to schizophrenia later in life.

Crock. Of. Shit. Smoking weed may trigger schizophrenia in a person- already genetically disposed to it. "Usually leads to" is just a flat-out lie.
Sure thing but hey, any weedster's entitled to take that chance. [/b]
Nice to see you retreating from your earlier statement ;)
You know there's a 'chance' that i'll be hit be involved in a car accident, be murdered, die in a plane crash etc, and all of these 'chances' are much higher risks statistically than dying from smoking marijuana. I'm not going to live forever, so i might as well enjoy what time i have- my life.

[guerillablack]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2005, 09:04 PM

1.) A question of how to get my friend back.

It depends.

One the one hand, you could try to tear apart his beliefs, but what kind of friend would that make you?

It's extremely selfish to try to change his beliefs.

How would you feel if he started prosletyzing to you?

You would hate it.

Try to just avoid the issue as much as possible if you can't resolve it.

First though, talk to him about it.


3.) Why did God make us equipped with free will, just to check if we'll fuck up?

Because he's evil.

He 'supposedly' had the power to make everything perfect for us, but he didn't, and therefore he is evil, or at least malfeant.

Here's some logic:

God is a perfect being.

A perfect being can only create perfect things (A perfect painter would only create perfect paintings)

God's creation is NOT perfect (Pain, death, suffering, the existence of Satan etc.)

Therefore, God is not perfect

Therefore, God is not real

If they try to give you the whole "God's creation IS perfect, because it's his creation" tell them that's circular logic and doesn't stand up to reason.

If they say it is perfect, they are lying bullshitters because this world sucks and they know it.

If anything else should come up, I'll confront it.
Are you trying to tell me that a being that is perfect does not have the ability to make something imperfect? A perfect painter since being perfect has the ability to make perfect and non perfect paintings.

[Publius]

Are you trying to tell me that a being that is perfect does not have the ability to make something imperfect? A perfect painter since being perfect has the ability to make perfect and non perfect paintings.

My mistake.

A perfect painter would have the ability to make an imperfect painting, but if he did, he would no longer be a perfect painter.

[Clarksist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2005, 11:22 PM
A perfect painter would have the ability to make an imperfect painting, but if he did, he would no longer be a perfect painter.
Wow, that logic actually makes a lot of sense. That is just about the easiest way to proove Christianity wrong, along with most Theist religions. (doesn't work with Pantheism, but oh well)

[Le People]

I don't normally discuss my reliogious views but I believe that God is correct. He is great and real. Evil is not real. It may appear real but it isn't. When one believes a lie, they think it's true. But when the truth is revealed for all to see, the lie is destroyed. God is free will. He is only real, so when we reach a state in which God is the only recognizeable thing, then we will be free. Free from evil, materialism, sickness and death. Allowed to bask in the warmth of commune, harmony, and happiness. I am a Christian Sciencetist.

[Le People]

God didn't make imperfections. The lies of evil did. Humanity and materialism makes you believe in death, satan, sickness. Materialism is horse shit. We must try to get rid of it one thing at a time.

[encephalon]

God didn't make imperfections. The lies of evil did. Humanity and materialism makes you believe in death, satan, sickness. Materialism is horse shit. We must try to get rid of it one thing at a time.

Oh, and who made evil again? Satan? And who made Satan? God?

God's evil.

By the way, before anyone tries the perfection argument.. don't bother. It doesn't get through to them.

[encephalon]

. I am a Christian Sciencetist.


And I hate you. Welcome to the board.

[Le People]

Hey, groovy man, I a'int that deep into it. Compared to any other form of Christianity, it does put a lot of reasoning behind it. Well thanks for your response. I don't want to press, but since this is the relious forum I may suggest Science and Health by Mary Baker Eddy.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Le People
I am a Christian Sciencetist.

Gee, that's terrible. :(

If there's anything we can do to help you, just ask.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/evil/teu42.gif

[Clarksist]

Originally posted by Le [email protected] 14 2005, 03:47 AM
God didn't make imperfections. The lies of evil did. Humanity and materialism makes you believe in death, satan, sickness. Materialism is horse shit. We must try to get rid of it one thing at a time.
But if God created everything, he also created the Evil which created the lies...

Oh wait, sorry I used common sense. :lol:

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by Le [email protected] 13 2005, 09:42 PM
Evil is not real. It may appear real but it isn't.

Free from evil...

The lies of evil did.

Your abstractions make no sense.

Evil isn't real but it initiates certain occurrences?

PARALLEL EXAMPLE: Unicorns don't exist but one just ate my sandwich.

:blink:

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by Clarksist+Jul 15 2005, 01:23 AM--> (Clarksist @ Jul 15 2005, 01:23 AM)
Le [email protected] 14 2005, 03:47 AM
God didn't make imperfections. The lies of evil did. Humanity and materialism makes you believe in death, satan, sickness. Materialism is horse shit. We must try to get rid of it one thing at a time.
But if God created everything, he also created the Evil which created the lies...

Oh wait, sorry I used common sense. :lol: [/b]
No, no hold it. God gave us free will, so this means he made people with the ability to chose "evil" and the circumstances that cause them to or the creatures that create those circumstances (really invalidating free will altogether).

God by this definition is inept or evil; not to mention completely unsubstanciated.

[riverotter]

Errrr.... And there's always the fact that there's absolutely no evidence that any sort of supernatural beings - from god to fairies - exists.

None.

You'd think after all this time they'd have found something.

And yeah, like Bill Hicks says... What about the dinosaurs?

[Publius]

Wow, that logic actually makes a lot of sense. That is just about the easiest way to proove Christianity wrong, along with most Theist religions. (doesn't work with Pantheism, but oh well)

Infidelguy.com has a bunch of good ones: http://www.infidelguy.com/article-313--0-0.html

[Black Dagger]

Publius, i applaud your sequential logic, but i dont understand how your proposition goes from,



Therefore, God is not perfect

Therefore, God is not real

I can't see how that is a valid conclusion, it seems unassociated to your premises.

Why does 'god' being an imperfect creator and/or an evil one make 'god' 'not real'?

In spite of my problems with the conclusion, i agree with all other premises.

[Clarksist]

Originally posted by Black [email protected] 18 2005, 05:20 AM
I can't see how that is a valid conclusion, it seems unassociated to your premises.

Why does 'god' being an imperfect creator and/or an evil one make 'god' 'not real'?

In spite of my problems with the conclusion, i agree with all other premises.
Because Christianity says the God is perfect.

EDIT: Plublious, that is an awesome site.

[Publius]

Publius, i applaud your sequential logic, but i dont understand how your proposition goes from,



Therefore, God is not perfect

Therefore, God is not real

I can't see how that is a valid conclusion, it seems unassociated to your premises.

Why does 'god' being an imperfect creator and/or an evil one make 'god' 'not real'?

In spite of my problems with the conclusion, i agree with all other premises.

God's perfection and infalibility are basic tenets of the Christian God, and I would assume, the Jewish and Muslim God.

They state that their God is perfect. It can be logically demonstrated that he is not.

The Christian God cannot exist as an imperfect God. It doesn't work like that. He has to be infallible.

Taking 'perfection' away from God, is akin to take 'omniscience' or 'omnipresence' away from God. It makes him (Or at least the Christian interpretation of him) invalid.

If he is imperfect, it makes all the conclusions about him invalid. Like a lab test where there are unknown variables. You wouldn't know if the conclusion is right. You throw it out.

God is therefore invalid. We throw him out.

And this is just one of many simple logic arguments: http://www.infidelguy.com/article-313--0-0.html

That's the logical basis.

And believing in an imperfect God brings up its own mess of logic, namely, does he even know what the fuck he's doing? Should we listen to him? How do we know he isn't fucking with us? How do we know he isn't ruining our lives?

None of these can proven, and believing in God who, for all you know killed your Uncle because he thought it would funny, is an absolute sick joke.

[Publius]

This is my personal favorite, not because the logic is the best, but becaue of what it does to the average believer:

ON GOD`S JEALOUSY
1.) "God is love." 1 John 4:8.
2.) "Love is not jealous." 1 Cor 13:4
3.) "I, the Lord thy God, am a jealous God." Exodus 20:5.
4.) The Christian god cannot logically exist. - Reginald V. Finley, Sr.
Comments: You see, this is the problem, God cannot be jealous. Be he is. Yahweh cannot possibly exist if he has both the attributes of love and jealousy.)

The response is generally: *blank stare*

[Fidelbrand]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2005, 07:02 PM

I feel that he died.

I can't stop questioning my beliefs. And all I can come up with is that how can a loving and compassionate God create creatures with free will, just to watch them fuck up.
Don't worry, Jesus rose from the tomb and he said that resurrection is a possibility, it's only a matter of time when your friend will come back.

Ok, full-stop with that cocky joke.

I share your expereince.
One of my best pals became a Christian, i kind of hanged on and see how he will develop. one day he asked me what's my dream or goal? For himself, he answered he wants his parents to be converted.....

So.... :(

2.) A working out of built up frustration.

Do sports, dobe is lame. Sweat it all out and concentrate on building your valuable life, in which, you have a grip of your own, unlike your friend, gripped by religion.

3.) Why did God make us equipped with free will, just to check if we'll fuck up?

NFI.

[Ownthink]

Actually, I've just recently argued this with my christo-fascist dad. He couldn't respond so he walked away "tired", albeit at 9:30. But yeah, I asked him "If God is a perfect being, then how and why would he create us humans, and condemn us to Hell, if we do only what is our nature? It is human nature to kill, maim and destroy, to get ahead... why would God condemn us mere animals to him, for doing what comes naturally to us for survival"?

His answer: "He gave us free will, and thats the last of it!"

Religion = Fraud.

Please don't step in the bullshit, we really don't need it tracked through the world anymore than it is already.

[Clarksist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2005, 08:34 PM
Please don't step in the bullshit, we really don't need it tracked through the world anymore than it is already.
Thats the best quote ever.


Do sports, dobe is lame. Sweat it all out and concentrate on building your valuable life, in which, you have a grip of your own, unlike your friend, gripped by religion.


Tis too bad I'm not the sporty type. And only people who don't smoke pot think its lame.

[Ownthink]

Thats the best quote ever.
True

And


Tis too bad I'm not the sporty type. And only people who don't smoke pot think its lame.
True.

I'm not "sporty" at all, and yes, pot is only lame to those who haven't experienced it.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2005, 11:46 PM

Publius, i applaud your sequential logic, but i dont understand how your proposition goes from,



Therefore, God is not perfect

Therefore, God is not real

I can't see how that is a valid conclusion, it seems unassociated to your premises.

Why does 'god' being an imperfect creator and/or an evil one make 'god' 'not real'?

In spite of my problems with the conclusion, i agree with all other premises.

God's perfection and infalibility are basic tenets of the Christian God, and I would assume, the Jewish and Muslim God.

They state that their God is perfect. It can be logically demonstrated that he is not.

The Christian God cannot exist as an imperfect God. It doesn't work like that. He has to be infallible.

Taking 'perfection' away from God, is akin to take 'omniscience' or 'omnipresence' away from God. It makes him (Or at least the Christian interpretation of him) invalid.

If he is imperfect, it makes all the conclusions about him invalid. Like a lab test where there are unknown variables. You wouldn't know if the conclusion is right. You throw it out.

God is therefore invalid. We throw him out.

And this is just one of many simple logic arguments: http://www.infidelguy.com/article-313--0-0.html

That's the logical basis.

And believing in an imperfect God brings up its own mess of logic, namely, does he even know what the fuck he's doing? Should we listen to him? How do we know he isn't fucking with us? How do we know he isn't ruining our lives?

None of these can proven, and believing in God who, for all you know killed your Uncle because he thought it would funny, is an absolute sick joke.
Thank you for the explanation, and for the link, i'm gonna print some of those out and start distributing them :D

[Xvall]

Marijuana is not a gateway drug, whatever that means.

As marijuana use increased in the 60's and 70's, heroin use began to decline, and when marijuana use declined in the 80's, heroin used remained, for the most part, stable. Cocaine use increased in the 80's, as marijuana use was declining, and then during the early 90's, both marijuana and cocaine use declined.

The drugs have no correlation with each other whatsoever, and when the Netherlands, where marijuana is decriminalized, only 1.8% of young dutch marijuana users have ever tried cocaine, wheras in the United States, where the substance is illegal, some 16% of young american marijuana users have tried cocaine.

The only argument anyone can possibly have suggesting that marijuana was a gateway drug is: most people who have used cocaine or heroin used marijuana in the past. Although that might be true, I can guarentee you that every person who has done cocaine or heroin has also ingested caffeine — is pepsi a gateway drug?

[Ownthink]

I can guarentee you that every person who has done cocaine or heroin has also ingested caffeine — is pepsi a gateway drug?

Man, how do you come up with arguments like that? I never would of thought of that, even though it's right in the open :lol:

[dietrite]

Marijuana is not a gateway drug, whatever that means.

I would say it is mostly the atmosphere created by the drug, not the drug itself.

But out of the 10 people who try cocaine or heroin, probably 8 or 9 started by smoking pot.

Thats not even a bad thing though.

[Black Dagger]

probably 8 or 9 started by smoking pot.

Or alcohol, or cigarettes. Pot has nothing to do with it, there is no logic to that conclusion, smoking pot does not make someone use other drugs, if anything it would make them want to smoke more pot. I 'started' using drugs in my early teens, alcohol, since then i've smoked tobacco, pot and so forth. I want to try mushrooms, LSD, cocaine and maybe a few other things. How is cannabis responsible for this desire?

[Clarksist]

Originally posted by Drake [email protected] 19 2005, 06:29 AM
The only argument anyone can possibly have suggesting that marijuana was a gateway drug is: most people who have used cocaine or heroin used marijuana in the past. Although that might be true, I can guarentee you that every person who has done cocaine or heroin has also ingested caffeine — is pepsi a gateway drug?
I think Pepsi might be a gateway drug... damn soda.

Pot is always considered it because many people who do harder drugs started with weed. But that in NO FUCKING WAY deducts that if you smoke pot you will do more hardcore drugs.

And even if you do, ITS YOUR OWN BODY.

[OleMarxco]

Not like anyone is supposed to care ('SIDES FOR REDSTAR MUAHAHAHAHHAH! Sorry, no punch-line here!) but I am happy to make the own announcement...I found it were hard to uphold a "neutral" view-point as an 'Agnostic'....but the light shined too hard. Atheist is the way to go, the god-paradox of makin' a stone too hard for God to lift convinced me...it ain't LOGICAL! I used to think someone might have sparked the creation of the universe, BUT FUCK THAT SHIT, I don't know anything 'neways, why the hell should I care? ;)

[Mujer Libre]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2005, 10:17 PM
I used to think someone might have sparked the creation of the universe, BUT FUCK THAT SHIT, I don't know anything 'neways, why the hell should I care? ;)
I used to have issues with that too, but then, if God created the universe then fucked off (because I'm not seeing any divine evidence...) he/she might as well not exist.

And Stephen Hawking may help answer our questions about the "beginning" of the universe. (That said, I have issues with how Hawking bandies about the word "god.")

This explains it better: The idea that space and time may form a closed surface without boundary also has profound implications for the role of God in the affairs of the universe. With the success of scientific theories in describing events, most people have come to believe that God allows the universe to evolve according to a set of laws and does not intervene in the universe to break these laws. However, the laws do not tell us what the universe should have looked like when it started -- it would still be up to God to wind up the clockwork and choose how to start it off. So long as the universe had a beginning, we could suppose it had a creator. But if the universe is really completely self-contained, having no boundary or edge, it would have neither beginning nor end: it would simply be. What place, then, for a creator? [Stephen Hawking, A Brief History of Time (New York: Bantam, 1988), p. 140-41.]

I think it's the quantam theory of gravity that supports the idea of space-time being like (sorry for the horrible explanation) like a four dimensional sphere; that is, finite yet having no external edge (creation).

[guerillablack]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2005, 08:34 PM
Actually, I've just recently argued this with my christo-fascist dad. He couldn't respond so he walked away "tired", albeit at 9:30. But yeah, I asked him "If God is a perfect being, then how and why would he create us humans, and condemn us to Hell, if we do only what is our nature? It is human nature to kill, maim and destroy, to get ahead... why would God condemn us mere animals to him, for doing what comes naturally to us for survival"?

His answer: "He gave us free will, and thats the last of it!"

Religion = Fraud.

Please don't step in the bullshit, we really don't need it tracked through the world anymore than it is already.
It's human nature to kill?

[Clarksist]

Originally posted by Mujer [email protected] 20 2005, 01:04 PM
I think it's the quantam theory of gravity that supports the idea of space-time being like (sorry for the horrible explanation) like a four dimensional sphere; that is, finite yet having no external edge (creation).
If there is something like 10+ dimensions... then think of how a creator could divinely create us, but not give us the ability to know of all dimensions. Yet through evolution, all we would need to develop is a grasp of the big four (front-back, left-right, up-down, and time.)

[Ownthink]

Originally posted by guerillablack+Jul 20 2005, 10:15 AM--> (guerillablack @ Jul 20 2005, 10:15 AM)
[email protected] 18 2005, 08:34 PM
Actually, I've just recently argued this with my christo-fascist dad. He couldn't respond so he walked away "tired", albeit at 9:30. But yeah, I asked him "If God is a perfect being, then how and why would he create us humans, and condemn us to Hell, if we do only what is our nature? It is human nature to kill, maim and destroy, to get ahead... why would God condemn us mere animals to him, for doing what comes naturally to us for survival"?

His answer: "He gave us free will, and thats the last of it!"

Religion = Fraud.

Please don't step in the bullshit, we really don't need it tracked through the world anymore than it is already.
It's human nature to kill? [/b]
Yes, if you're killing for survival, then yes it is in our instincts. We are animals, albeit a more advanced animal than most. What about in War? I never coulde accept the whole "pick-and-choose" of Religion.


-Ownthink

[codyvo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2005, 10:02 AM
1.) A question of how to get my friend back.

I say call him, then tell him: If it is your choice to become a christian and be religious, I won't stop you, I will respect your beliefs and not taunt you for it, but I must tell you, I can no longer think of you as my friend or at least my partner of the revolution. I am not angry just disappointed, and I think this may seriously diminish our friendship.

That's what I'd say, and if you did remain his friend I would simply leave if he ever started talking his religious evangelist propaganda, just leave.

[Andy Alexis-Baker]

send your friend to this site: http://www.jesusradicals.com . . . one can be radical and Christian. He might not smoke pot with you, but he might not become a REpublican either. And if he does maybe over time he/she can see a different way. Yo probably wont convince the person to leave Christianity, and that is probably not desirable anyhow...but you could show him that Jesus was not like many churches say he was...read Jacques Ellul's Anarchy and Christianity and give him a copy.

Maybe you could be friends by talking about it :)

[Individual]

I started drinking milk when I was a newborn.

I started smoking pot when I was thirteen.

I stopped freebasing crack when I was nineteen.

I regularly digest 100mg of morphine, numerous times daily, vertebrae kink.

I started drinking milk when I was a newborn.

Got milk?

[john von konstantine]

the belief in god only restricts humanbeings from achievements particularly in science and politics .A pure theist will sit back and pray god instead of endeavour for advancement of humanity .there is no god but even if god existed he would make his humans not believe in him for the advancement of humanity
god is a base less argument it can be destroyed easily .try to communicate your friend and please try to quote shaheed baghat singhs why am i an athiest that is by far ,the bible for athiests
let the crimson flag soar high

[Bud Struggle]

This post is three things:
1.) A question of how to get my friend back.
The problem is that it's your friend's life--not yours and he should be free to live it as he sees fit--not as you see fit. You want to try to sway him to become an athiest? How would you like it if he tried to talk you into becomming a Christian? The door swings both ways.

What's really important isn't Christianity or athism--it's is your friend is happy or not? And that doesn't mean if YOU think he's happy.

He seems to have made a decision about how he wants to live his life--I'm not saying it's good or bad--but it's a personal decision--much like using or not using drugs. I'm sure he had reasons and maybe not reason than would sway you, but each person is different with different wants desires and things that make us happy.

You shouldn't judge him for the decisions he's making in life in the same way he shouldn't judge you for your decisions.

On the other hand if you say something like this:

I say call him, then tell him: If it is your choice to become a christian and be religious, I won't stop you, I will respect your beliefs and not taunt you for it, but I must tell you, I can no longer think of you as my friend or at least my partner of the revolution. I am not angry just disappointed, and I think this may seriously diminish our friendship.

You weren't much of a friend to him anyway. To be a real friend you have to be friends with the person, not his belief system. Good friends don't judge each other--they support each other.

[Random Precision]

the belief in god only restricts humanbeings from achievements particularly in science and politics .A pure theist will sit back and pray god instead of endeavour for advancement of humanity .there is no god but even if god existed he would make his humans not believe in him for the advancement of humanity
god is a base less argument it can be destroyed easily .try to communicate your friend and please try to quote shaheed baghat singhs why am i an athiest that is by far ,the bible for athiests
let the crimson flag soar high

Please do not resurrect threads that are three years old. Locked.