Log in

View Full Version : On multiculturalism.



TheKingOfMercy
8th July 2005, 15:23
Righty, first off, just to let you all know, all I am doing is presenting facts for a debate, not being racist or any of the other evils pervading society. I was restricted for posting this in response to a question in the politics forum, so I hope we can all be a little less Stalin about the truth in here.

(government refers to the UK government in this context)

Multiculturalism, when badly applied, can cause problems for any society. Forced integration, such as the placing of asylum seekers, the building of mosques and temples where they arent needed, Politically correct acts to placate a usually imaginary threat, are all examples of bad multiculturalism.

All that acts like this serve to do is annoy the general population, making a truly multi-cultural society harder and harder. Political Correctness and all the power of the word 'racism' also make this harder.

Example - A mosque was built, without planning permission, the coucil orderd it pulled down, the clerics cried racism and discrimination, and it stayed, in direct violation of every planning law.... A man put up a treehouse for his child, was told to tear it down or face prison. He had no race card to play.

This FACTUAL series of events highlights how a government or local authority can miss-manage such delicate subjects. This event sparked a lot of anti-Islamic sentiment in the local community for quite some time. This is obviously a bad thing.

As mentioned previously, forced integration can also cause problems, such as racial crimes, general racial tension, and even the odd riot. This is again a result of government miss-managing of the situation.

Combine bad government with confused and annoyed natives, and you dont have a very good base for building a mixed-race idyll do you ?

I used the example of the governments imaginary 'one legged lesbian single mother muslim transexual' in my previous post, this was a statement made by a dissalusioned politician in a newspaper, not something I made up, so dont be so narrowminded as to dismiss the concept. It exists in every politically correct action the government make.

My opinion on the whole thing is fairly simple - multi-culturalism has to happen naturally, not be forced upon people, otherwise you end up with killings and generally poor results, which is not the intention of multiculturalism.

I hope that people can discuss this topic without just flaming me for daring to bring up a real problematic situation and ask for other open-minded types to present a solution.

Severian
8th July 2005, 15:32
Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2005, 08:23 AM
Righty, first off, just to let you all know, all I am doing is presenting facts for a debate,
I've noticed this is what racists always say, they're just stating the facts. But usually they're really factually challenged, and just have trouble telling the difference between facts and opinions. You're no exception.


Multiculturalism, when badly applied, can cause problems for any society. Forced integration, such as the placing of asylum seekers, the building of mosques and temples where they arent needed,

Forced integration? What is forcible about the right of people to live, build mosques and temples, etc, in any neighborhood they want? In reality, force is needed if you want to stop integration.

As usual, "forced" is just a codeword for "I don't like it."


Example - A mosque was built, without planning permission, the coucil orderd it pulled down, the clerics cried racism and discrimination, and it stayed, in direct violation of every planning law.... A man put up a treehouse for his child, was told to tear it down or face prison. He had no race card to play.

This FACTUAL series of events highlights how a government or local authority can miss-manage such delicate subjects.

Are these in reality facts? What is your source for them?


This event sparked a lot of anti-Islamic sentiment in the local community for quite some time.

That sounds like an opinion. You don't even give facts to support it, for example, showing that anti-Islamic sentiment rose afterward. (Which wouldn't, by itself, prove causation, but would be a start.)


I used the example of the governments imaginary 'one legged lesbian single mother muslim transexual' in my previous post, this was a statement made by a dissalusioned politician in a newspaper, not something I made up, so dont be so narrowminded as to dismiss the concept.

So, it was made up by someone else, not you. So what? It remains imaginary, not a fact.

You keep saying "I'm just stating facts" but I have yet to see a single solitary fact in any of your posts.

TheKingOfMercy
8th July 2005, 15:53
The facts are in real life, find an old newspaper, they are things that have and are happening. The imaginary one legged etc.... is a metaphor. you can understand that ?

Forced means it is put upon people - a mosque was built by a city council in an area without any muslims, they just built it out of PC. the local population were again agitated by un-needed and un-wanted (even by muslims) pandering.

Why you must call me a racist I do not know, is this because I present a problem with one of the sacred cows of the left ? Accept that things have faults. I think its a good idea, that the cultures should mix, as it can only BENEFIT society, but I think current methodology is not going to achieve that mix well.

Then again, of course, you would've understood that if you'd read my post properly instead of being pedantic and jumping on little points to discredit what is a truthfull article, demanding a good, non-racist solution.

zinc
13th July 2005, 16:28
You are not allowed debate the latest God of western society, that of multiculturalism, at least not until the bias swtiches back which may just happen.

Hegemonicretribution
13th July 2005, 17:24
Well as I am not going to ask for references on your sources as I have no reason to disbelieve them, I have to say I agree that the way things are currently handled are wrong. The mosque example is perhaps not the best to be used here, as the argument could well tend towards private property, and land ownership rights questions, overlooking what you are getting at.

What I think is the problem is the unequal handlings, and anyone wanting equality should be outraged at the positive discrimination in favour of (in your example) the clerics. Forgetting whether or not law is right or wrong (carrying it out equally is more important), the guy probably should have had the treehouse pulled down, and the mosque should also come down with it.

The whole thing with different cultures here in bollocks, they have in reality been mixed for thousands of years. English is a mish mash of langages, the bloodline a mix from many sources. English really means nothing, dogs have breeds, but in the human world most people would be mongrels. This is not bad, but this whole race thing is daft.

Should Muslims be allowed a mosque: Yes

Regardless of rules applying to everything else: No

redstar2000
13th July 2005, 19:47
I find your concerns rather baffling, King of Mercy...perhaps because of my ignorance in how things function in the U.K.

We all know that the decisions of "planning commissions" are frequently outstanding in their stupidity. I cannot imagine any reasonable objection to a treehouse for children...but who knows? Perhaps we are approaching an era in which treehouses will be declared "unsafe" by definition.

That the council would cave on an issue of building a mosque probably has more to do with the government's interest in promoting religion than it does with multi-culturalism. A Hindu Temple or even the C of E would probably have gotten the same waiver.

Housing asylum seekers is probably more a class issue...poorer neighborhoods being routinely regarded as "dumping grounds" for the "socially undesirable". I don't imagine that there's much housing for asylum seekers at Canary Wharf, is there?

But all of this seems pretty...disconnected with "multi-culturalism" -- whatever that is supposed to mean.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

TheKingOfMercy
13th July 2005, 19:52
Multiculturalism is the new word of the day with the government. My concerns are that the government is making a mess of it, today a mosque was set fire to, because the first thing the state-TV did was blame muslims for the terror attacks. The government has no idea how to integrate different cultures without favouring one.

It causes problems, my concern is that hard-right types like the NF or BNP will gain popularity as a result of this cack-handedness.

A lot of local-level decision making is nothing to with promoting religion, it is often based on the ethnicity of the person needing a decision. Sad state of affairs, but true, when the decision making has double standards as I showed, I think it's called positive discrimination ( correct me of course ).

All of this affects the general public's perception of multiculturalism is what I was getting at, and they be the one's that matter y'see, I wouldnt want this government's mistakes leading to the next one carrying out a spot of amature ethnic cleansing.

Mujer Libre
16th July 2005, 15:05
Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2005, 03:28 PM
You are not allowed debate the latest God of western society, that of multiculturalism, at least not until the bias swtiches back which may just happen.
Do you not realise how racist Western (and other- but for the purpose of this discussion, western) societies are? Multiculturalism is only like a god in that both are fictional. :P

zinc
16th July 2005, 19:40
Originally posted by Mujer Libre+Jul 16 2005, 02:05 PM--> (Mujer Libre @ Jul 16 2005, 02:05 PM)
[email protected] 13 2005, 03:28 PM
You are not allowed debate the latest God of western society, that of multiculturalism, at least not until the bias swtiches back which may just happen.
Do you not realise how racist Western (and other- but for the purpose of this discussion, western) societies are? Multiculturalism is only like a god in that both are fictional. :P [/b]

Yes, thats perfectly true and why I think it is sxilly, lets all pretend multiculturalism is great, its a false idol, a false god.

Mujer Libre
17th July 2005, 03:13
Originally posted by zinc+Jul 16 2005, 06:40 PM--> (zinc @ Jul 16 2005, 06:40 PM)
Originally posted by Mujer [email protected] 16 2005, 02:05 PM

[email protected] 13 2005, 03:28 PM
You are not allowed debate the latest God of western society, that of multiculturalism, at least not until the bias swtiches back which may just happen.
Do you not realise how racist Western (and other- but for the purpose of this discussion, western) societies are? Multiculturalism is only like a god in that both are fictional. :P

Yes, thats perfectly true and why I think it is sxilly, lets all pretend multiculturalism is great, its a false idol, a false god. [/b]
Um, you misunderstand me.

I think the MYTH is that Western societies ARE perfect multicultural societies, which they clearly are not.

However, a real multicultural society would be great, IMO.

JC1
17th July 2005, 20:57
"MultiCultural" Societies are multi-cultural only in food and dress - even if that. Multiculturalism isnt the unification of cultures - in most cases its viewed as "Positive ghettoization".

Amusing Scrotum
17th July 2005, 22:42
I live in a working class area. The type of place where asylum seekers etc. are homed. People moan enough about them being in a terraced house, even when theres nine or ten of them in a two up two down, so if they were ever given decent housing there would be riots. This is not however my point.
On my street within four or five houses there are immigrants descended from Poles (Me), Ireland, Portugal, Italy and India. Now being quite dark myself I get the occasional racist remark along with the Indian man. However none of the other families get this as they are all white. Now everyone has worked all their lives and paid tax however it is only the darker folks who are ever resented.
My point is therefore that multi-cultralism seems to work so long as the foreign nationals are light enough. Which I suppose shows that at least Britain is on the right track.
Remember that Nazi Germany started off with people moaning about Jews. I bet Hitler and Hess used to chat about how Hess couldn't put a treehouse up but the "Jews" could build Synagogues.
So therefore I would ask "The King of Mercy" to due something a bit more useful with his time. Like perhaps protesting about issues such as the arms trade. Which lead to so many people having to leave their native lands and come to places like "Racist" Britain.

TheKingOfMercy
18th July 2005, 03:23
So, because you make some crap analogy about hitler (that's usually a sign of a weak argument by the way), I must ignore the issue ?

There are many many more issues at hand than people selling guns, but I was focusing on one that affects where I live, and the people where I live, and the people who want to live in this area.

It really is not my business why assorted nationalities are here, I'm concerned that their prescence doesn't result in bad things because of government mismanagement.

I would ask armchair.socialism to do something usefull with his time - (I'm a her by the way, I can just get very male occaisonally) - Get out of said armchair, tackle immediate problems, and then look at the wider picture, as you don't seem to have the capacity to operate at a strategic level, so stick to the tactical level, I do.

Amusing Scrotum
18th July 2005, 18:30
My point was that Britain is full of immigrants already and people only seem bothered when they are dark skinned. Plus maybe the people of your area should think more about how they contribute to the "problem" of immigration. Standing by while we bomb the shit out of foreign lands, not really caring that the clothes they wear were made in appaling conditions in sweat shops etc.
So if the Government has failed on immigration its failure is not telling people that Western countries and businesses continually exploit these immigrants homelands. All so the average Western person can enjoy cheaper goods.