London

[Bugalu Shrimp]

I was just evacuated from Bank station and have heard that several bombs have gone off plus a bus has been blown up.

[DaCuBaN]

From BBC news: BBC News (http://news.bbc.co.uk)


At least one person is reported to have been killed in an explosion on a bus in central London.

Witnesses said the roof of the double-decker bus was blown into the sky outside the British Medical Association, near Tavistock Place.

One told BBC News 24 the front of the building had been "splattered with blood" and said there were sheets spread on the pavement.

Police said: "There have been further reports of multiple explosions."

Witness Belinda Seabrook said: "I was on the bus in front and heard an incredible bang, I turned round and half the double decker bus was in the air.

"It was a massive explosion and there were papers and half a bus flying through the air.

"There must be a lot of people dead as all the buses were packed, they had been turning people away from the Tube stops."

Another witness said police were about to conduct controlled explosions in the area. The area has been cordoned off.

There were unconfirmed reports there were other blasts on buses in South Kensington and in Marylebone.


Several people have been injured after explosions on the Underground network and a double-decker bus in London.

A police spokesman said there were "quite a large number of casualties" at Aldgate Tube Station.

And Scotland Yard confirmed one of several reports of explosions on buses in the city - in Tavistock Place - but said the cause was not yet known.

One caller to BBC Five said his friend had seen "the bus ripped open like a can of sardines and bodies everywhere".

Number 10 said it was "still unsure" whether the explosions were a terrorist attack and although casualties were reported, no further details were yet available.

Ministers are meeting to clarify the situation and the government will make a statement later, Leader of the House Geoff Hoon told the Commons.

PA also quoted union officials as saying sources had told them there had been at least one explosive device on the Underground.

"There was immediately smoke everywhere and it was hot and everybody panicked. People started screaming and crying"
Jacqui Head
BBC News

I stepped off the tube this morning at around 0845 after the tannoy announced "delays" past King's Cross on the Piccadily line. By the time I was in the office, reports of a "power surge" causing the entire tube network to close down were rife, and shortly after one confirmed bomb blast on a bus and many, many more unconfirmed blasts were reported.

Surely, these two incidents - one playing so neatly into the hands of the other, as with the tube closed the buses began to fill - cannot merely be coincidence? I leave this wretched city for home tomorrow, and I hope this is the last I will see of the "war " between this abominable government and those fools whom they have riled into action.

*Edited to fix link*

[h&s]

9 bombs have been let off - 3 on the underground, 6 on the buses.
Limbs have been flying, 90 reported casualties, at least 20 fatalities.
all routes out of London are shut, airports are closed.
Blair is now staying in Scottland.
Phone networks are shut down.
SHIT!

[Forward Union]

Hmm I like the way the news is reporting things...

Anarchists in scotland, "Terrorists" in London, Anarchists, Terrorists, Anarchists, Terrorists, they hate the G8, you do the math.

[h&s]

They are never going to pin this on anarchists. This is al-Qaeda (general term) - no doubt about it.
The organisation of it is their trademark.

[h&s]

Downing street now confirms it is a terrorist attack - took thier time didn't they.
Doesn't this proove we need ID cards!
(Joke)

[silentprotest]

we do need ID cards though, this is what happens when you have to many bloody liberals in parliament

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by h&[email protected] 7 2005, 10:17 AM
Doesn't this proove we need ID cards!
(Joke)
That's exactly what I was thinking....that'll certainly be next thing on the agenda after the G8. Well, at least the Terrorists didn't use gas or biological weapons...I really get pissed off when innocent or neutral people get killed like this...

And I know they wont blame anarchists, but the manner in which they report Anarchists next to Terrorists...it pisses me off.

[Bugalu Shrimp]

The style is Al Queda but I don't have any facts yet, the metroplolitan police are talking bullshit, why don't they tell the truth?

Power surges, fires, collisions... All bullshit

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 10:23 AM
we do need ID cards though,
Read 1984

[silentprotest]

Originally posted by Additives Free+Jul 7 2005, 10:25 AM--> (Additives Free @ Jul 7 2005, 10:25 AM)
[email protected] 7 2005, 10:23 AM
we do need ID cards though,
Read 1984 [/b]
i can understand your apprehension, but assuming the information the government collects for the ID cards is not mis-used they are a fundimentally good idea

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Originally posted by silentprotest+Jul 7 2005, 10:31 AM--> (silentprotest @ Jul 7 2005, 10:31 AM)
Originally posted by Additives [email protected] 7 2005, 10:25 AM

[email protected] 7 2005, 10:23 AM
we do need ID cards though,
Read 1984
i can understand your apprehension, but assuming the information the government collects for the ID cards is not mis-used they are a fundimentally good idea [/b]
Do you actually trust the government with the information they have already? :huh:

[silentprotest]

no i dont, but thats why we need a revolution, to change the government

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Personally I like London.

What I'm worried about is that the Pro-ID card brigade will point to this as an example of the 'necessity' of ID card.

It worked in Spain didn't it?

[DaCuBaN]

i can understand your apprehension, but assuming the information the government collects for the ID cards is not mis-used they are a fundimentally good idea

No, I'm afraid as a programmer I must wholeheartedly disagree. If you write piece of software and KNOW there is a possible exploit within it, you don't release it until the exploit is fixed - only a fool would let a system into circulation that has recourse for either failure or abuse. The analogy, I think, applies perfectly to almost all "real-life" situations - however, this is not the thread for discussions of this nature.

London literally has ground to a standstill - and I can't beleive noone saw it coming. The G8 summit is being held hundreds of miles away: Divide and conquer...

[Sir Aunty Christ]

Fuckin' terrorists! Good way to divert the G8 from Africa and Climate change isn't it?

:angry:

[silentprotest]

Originally posted by Sir Aunty [email protected] 7 2005, 10:37 AM
Fuckin' terrorists! Good way to divert the G8 from Africa and Climate change isn't it?

:angry:
too right

[DaCuBaN]

What I'm worried about is that the Pro-ID card brigade will point to this as an example of the 'necessity' of ID card.

Alas, you may be right - Fear is a powerful driving force, especially amongst the indecisive. However, a card containing your biometric data will not stop you from brewing nitroglycerene in your own home, if you have the patience, ability and inclination (of which I have none) nor from placing it around the city. All it will do is inconvenience us all.


I like London.

Sure, I like Camden - but I work off Holburn, and frankly it's a nightmare - i was in a few bookshops here yesterday, and literally every book was capital finance or law - I couldn't find one copy of Das Kapital anywhere - not even any Neitsche, which is fairly "neutral" ground. Frankly, I think that says it all. It may not be the world's best book, but for crying out loud give me the choice! I walked past a shoe shop selling rather mundane looking leather shoes, vending at the abhorrent price of £350 (US$600).

I'm glad you like London: you can keep it! Besides, it smells and it's humid. I'll go back to living where the air is good and people - friend and foe alike - don't try to blow your ass into "kingdom-come" :P

[bolshevik butcher]

It's a terrible act. This will play right into the hands of the pro id card brigadde as well. Even thought id cards would have done nothing to stop this.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I'm glad you like London: you can keep it! Besides, it smells and it's humid. I'll go back to living where the air is good and people - friend and foe alike - don't try to blow your ass into "kingdom-come" :P

It's probably not the same as it was 6 years ago :(


Alas, you may be right - Fear is a powerful driving force, especially amongst the indecisive. However, a card containing your biometric data will not stop you from brewing nitroglycerene in your own home, if you have the patience, ability and inclination (of which I have none) nor from placing it around the city. All it will do is inconvenience us all.

Blair- er, Big brother is watching you...

[Bugalu Shrimp]

London is the best city in the world! Fuck off back to your clean air, twat.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Originally posted by Sir Aunty [email protected] 7 2005, 10:37 AM
Fuckin' terrorists! Good way to divert the G8 from Africa and Climate change isn't it?

:angry:
All I can say is: Islamist pricks! :angry:

[bolshevik butcher]

yeh,t ehy've given them a way out. This is a horrible act, and it will play right into authoratarians hands.

[Bugalu Shrimp]

I'm hearing they've shot a suicide bomber at Canary Wharf! Could be bullshit.

[DaCuBaN]

London is the best city in the world! Fuck off back to your clean air, twat.

Oh don't worry, I am. Unfortunately, I have to come back next week: Damn... Who was it who said "If you tire of London, you tire of Life"? I can relate to that.

London isn't a patch on most cities, that's for certain. Having visited Tokyo, New York, Paris and Madrid I can state in all certainty that London is the worst of them; in smell and in appearance - much like most of the UK.

At least the people are generally nice, I guess - and the beer is good ;) Can't say that about any of the others. :D

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by Sir Aunty [email protected] 7 2005, 08:37 PM
Fuckin' terrorists! Good way to divert the G8 from Africa and Climate change isn't it?

:angry:
You actually thought that the 'leaders' of the world's 8 richest countries were going to come up with any real or practical changes to alter the trajectory of the African continent or indeed the global environment? :unsure:
The only reason why the G8 summit mentions these issues is because of popular agitation, their 'warm' announcements on debt or climate change are about as meaningful as the world banks pledge to eliminate poverty.


no i dont, but thats why we need a revolution, to change the government

I think you're confusing revolution with reformism, 'swapping' political 'leaders' is not a revolution.

[Sir Aunty Christ]

Originally posted by Black Dagger+Jul 7 2005, 11:19 AM--> (Black Dagger @ Jul 7 2005, 11:19 AM)
Sir Aunty [email protected] 7 2005, 08:37 PM
Fuckin' terrorists! Good way to divert the G8 from Africa and Climate change isn't it?

:angry:
You actually thought that the 'leaders' of the world's 8 richest countries were going to come up with any real or practical changes to alter the trajectory of the African continent or indeed the global environment? :unsure:
The only reason why the G8 summit mentions these issues is because of popular agitation, their 'warm' announcements on debt or climate change are about as meaningful as the world banks pledge to eliminate poverty :lol: [/b]
All I'm saying is that it gives them an excuse to avoid those issues and possibly move on to "security" which is what got Georgy boy in trouble in the first place.

[h&s]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41276000/jpg/_41276745_kingscross2_grab.jpg

[Bugalu Shrimp]

DACUBAN - (yeah right, your Cuban)

Having visited Paris, Rome, Madrid, Barcelona, Havana,Buenas Aires, New York, Dublin, Mexico city - which by the way is also fanatastic. I can saftley say London is richer in history, multiculturism, and friendly people who are proud of their city and don't take kindly to hicks like you slagging it off when it's being bombed to fuck.

[h&s]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41276000/jpg/_41276875_bus_tavistock300.jpg

[h&s]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41277000/jpg/_41277255_bus_300_245_obi.jpg
That was a bus.

[Roses in the Hospital]

Well, I guess it was bound to happen sooner or later.
I just feel sorry for the civillians who've been killed or injured and their families, it was nothing to do with them...

[DaCuBaN]

You've got a fair chip on your shoulder there... Has noone told you that pride is a vice?

Besides, you betray yourself: Who gives a shit if a "city" is attacked? It's people we are concerned about, not anything else: Get a grip, buddy. For the record, of course I'm not Cuban. Do you take everything so literally, or do you just seek to flame?

"Hicks like me" don't really like being stuck in this stinking hole either, so I guess we've a mutual understanding going on here, twat.

[Sir Aunty Christ]

Originally posted by Roses in the [email protected] 7 2005, 11:35 AM
I just feel sorry for the civillians who've been killed or injured and their families, it was nothing to do with them...
Which is why terrorist tactics are never a good idea in my book.

[DaCuBaN]

Indeed: and what has been achieved? If it is in response to our continued interference in the middle east, then surely they can see this will solve nothing? The resolve of large sections of the UK population was against the war, and our government did not listen: This will change nothing.

Perhaps, of course, we're barking up the wrong tree... I do not know.

[h&s]

Originally posted by Sir Aunty Christ+Jul 7 2005, 11:38 AM--> (Sir Aunty Christ @ Jul 7 2005, 11:38 AM)
Roses in the [email protected] 7 2005, 11:35 AM
I just feel sorry for the civillians who've been killed or injured and their families, it was nothing to do with them...
Which is why terrorist tactics are never a good idea in my book. [/b]
They don't deserve the credit the name 'tactics' gives them.
Terrorists are inhuman killers with no humanity in them at all.

[OleMarxco]

Well...what can I say? They had it-comin', meh'supposeth ;)
(No, really, they had. I'm not fuckin' aroun' here;
If you embark on a war (plus denyin' Africa alot of
goods, in fear of their..."buisness relationships"), there's...
"informal" consequences, sotto speak, to be just as inhuman as
the terrorists!)

[h&s]

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/gallery/2005/07/07/bus3.jpg
Another bus.

[Bugalu Shrimp]

Your a knob and you know nothing about London or Londoners you parochial little *****.

[Bugalu Shrimp]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 11:41 AM
Well...what can I say? They had it-comin',
Who? The innocents of London who in their millions marched in protest against the illegal war in Iraq you stupid fucking melon.

[h&s]

Originally posted by Guardian
One witness who had been in a train at the time of the explosions reported seeing "bodies everywhere" in the carriages and limbs lying on the floor. Emergency services reported several injuries. Scotland Yard declared the emergency a "major incident".
Lovely... :angry:

[DaCuBaN]

I pity you, Bugalu.


Blair vows terrorists won't win
Tony Blair has said terrorists will not succeed in destroying "our values and our way of life" after blasts hit London's transport network.

The prime minister said it was reasonably clear the blasts were a terrorist attack designed to coincide with the G8 summit in Gleneagles.

He said he was flying back to London to hear reports from police and emergency services face-to-face.

But the G8 summit would continue in his absence, he said in a TV address.

It is particularly barbaric this has happened on a day when people are meeting to try to help the problems of poverty in Africa
Tony Blair

Mr Blair said it was "reasonably clear" terrorists were behind the blasts.

"It is important that those engaged in terrorism realise that our determination to defend our values and our way of life is greater than their determination to cause death and destruction to innocent people in a desire to impose extremism on the world," he said.

"Whatever they do, it is our determination that they will never succeed in destroying what we hold dear in this country and in other civilised nations throughout the world."

Mr Blair said all the G8 leaders wanted the meeting to continue in his absence so "that we should continue to discuss the issues that we are discussing and reach the conclusions that we were going to reach".

"Each of the countries around that table have some experience of the effects of terrorism and all the leaders ... share our complete resolution to defeat this terrorism," he continued.

"It is particularly barbaric this has happened on a day when people are meeting to try to help the problems of poverty in Africa and the long term problems of climate change and the environment.

"Just as it's reasonably clear this is a series of terrorist attacks, it's also reasonably clear, that it is designed and meant to coincide with the G8."

BBC political editor Andrew Marr said Mr Blair was clearly extremely upset when he gave his reaction to the blasts.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/uk_p...ics/4659933.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/uk_politics/4659933.stm)

There are days I do so love my twisted mind; I happened upon an interview with GW Bush by Trvor McDonald a few days ago, and he was probed on his commitment to Tony Blair and amongst other things, Kyoto. The Conspiracist in me is saying "blame Bush"; it's an attempt to derail his so-called "friend" so as to avoid difficult discussions.

Ah, it's good to be paranoid! :)

[h&s]

http://217.78.9.230/multimedia/archive/00102/3london070705_102565a.jpg

[Bannockburn]

Your a knob and you know nothing about London or Londoners you parochial little *****.


And its sentimental reactions like that, that Blair, Bush and the rest of these people want you to have. After they rev up your patriotic cry, and sentiment (instead of reason) then they can justify ID cards, harsher restrictions, if not complete obliteration of your rights all in the name of “security”.

[Sabocat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 07:41 AM
Well...what can I say? They had it-comin', meh'supposeth ;)
(No, really, they had. I'm not fuckin' aroun' here;
If you embark on a war (plus denyin' Africa alot of
goods, in fear of their..."buisness relationships"), there's...
"informal" consequences, sotto speak, to be just as inhuman as
the terrorists!)
Ahhh...here is where we flush out all the pseudo leftists. "They" had it coming to them? Who? The workers that it killed and injured on the trains and buses? How did "they" have it coming to them? Remember how many people were at the anti-war protests in London?

It's a disgusting attitude. Just like the populations being killed in Iraq and Afghanistan don't "have it coming", neither do those killed and injured in London. No leftist should be celebrating killing of the working class.

[Bugalu Shrimp]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 12:19 PM
And its sentimental reactions like that, that Blair, Bush and the rest of these people want you to have. After they rev up your patriotic cry, and sentiment (instead of reason) then they can justify ID cards, harsher restrictions, if not complete obliteration of your rights all in the name of “security”.
You patronising prick, my emotions are'nt ruled by anyone. I'm not patriotic, I just don't like seeing my fellow londoners walking around with bits hanging off them. Fucking child.

[respect]

As a socialist living in South London, I am devastated by the attacks and condemn them. The idiots who carry them out are not the "resistance" they are religious fanatics.

I feel sympathy to everyone who was caught up in them, including my best friend's mother.

It also reminds us what a great job Blair and Bush have done on making the world a safer place, thank you so much. Whilst they dine in their pathetic little hotel, I hope they are thinking that maybe their actions have something to do with suffering, in London, in Spain and of course Iraq.

[DaCuBaN]

I'm not patriotic, I just don't like seeing my fellow londoners walking around with bits hanging off them. Fucking child.

Said with a true "London Pride". If that's not a form of patriotism (which can be abused like any other form it takes), I don't know what is. Most people here asrcibe themselves to a form or other of "Humanism", not small-minded nonsense like this. Again, I say I pity you.


You patronising prick

Fucking child.

Go back to bed: You seriously got out on the wrong side today.
Move along, nothing to see...

[Bannockburn]

You patronising prick, my emotions are'nt ruled by anyone. I'm not patriotic, I just don't like seeing my fellow londoners walking around with bits hanging off them. Fucking child.

Do you think patriotism is only for your state? No, its for your city as well. Sorry bro, your emotions are being ruled. Of course I agree with you that I don't like to see anybody with anything hanging off them, but of course, I don't expect it to only include individuals who happen to live in my city. Moreover, its hardly childish statements, more like rational suspension until I know what the facts are, and rational statements concerning an event with larger implications.



It also reminds us what a great job Blair and Bush have done on making the world a safer place, thank you so much. Whilst they dine in their pathetic little hotel, I hope they are thinking that maybe their actions have something to do with suffering, in London, in Spain and of course Iraq.

I agree. Of course, Blair doesn't really care. It was probably designed by the British. It wouldn't surprise me. Hey, what better way to get the public back on your side than to remind them of “terror”. Expect one in the US soon. Let's not also mention how the police will now crush the G8 rally. Yeah Blair is right. There is no coincidence between this event and the G8. Probably designed that way...question is, who...the British, the Americans, or the Islamics?

[DaCuBaN]

Now, this is interesting...


Statement claiming London attacks
The BBC has located an Islamist website that has published a 200-word statement issued by an organisation saying it carried out the London bombings.

The organisation calls itself the Secret Organisation Group of al-Qaeda [literally the base] of Jihad Organisation in Europe.

The group not previously been heard of.

The website has previously carried statements purporting to be from al-Qaeda. It is not possible to verify such claims published on the web.

This is the full text of the statement. "In the name of God, the merciful, the compassionate, may peace be upon the cheerful one and undaunted fighter, Prophet Muhammad, God's peace be upon him.

Nation of Islam and Arab nation: Rejoice for it is time to take revenge against the British Zionist Crusader government in retaliation for the massacres Britain is committing in Iraq and Afghanistan. The heroic mujahideen have carried out a blessed raid in London. Britain is now burning with fear, terror and panic in its northern, southern, eastern, and western quarters.

We have repeatedly warned the British Government and people. We have fulfilled our promise and carried out our blessed military raid in Britain after our mujahideen exerted strenuous efforts over a long period of time to ensure the success of the raid.

We continue to warn the governments of Denmark and Italy and all the Crusader governments that they will be punished in the same way if they do not withdraw their troops from Iraq and Afghanistan. He who warns is excused.

God says: "You who believe: If ye will aid (the cause of) Allah, He will aid you, and plant your feet firmly."

No link was provided by the BBC.

Compared to the devestation we and our allies have created in the middle east of course, what we are witnessing in London pales by comparison. Terrible though this truly is, our government has entered into a "tit-for-tat" with these imbecilles (who somehow believe two "wrongs" can make a "right") to which there is no forseable end.

George W Bush is on a "mission from god" and Tony Blair has rallied to such a call - to defend "our" values and "our" way of life, he risks our very lifes - despite our cries of protest in the beginning of it all.

This is truly a sad day, as I can see no good coming from this - no matter the outcome. We, as differing forms of socially conscious humans, are stuck between a rock and a hard place.


It was probably designed by the British. It wouldn't surprise me. Hey, what better way to get the public back on your side than to remind them of “terror”. Expect one in the US soon.

I was thinking something similar - purely in an idle conspiratory way - that GWB doesn't want to talk about Kyoto with his steadfast supporter in this crusade to rid the middle east of what are considered "undesirable" governments. Far fetched though it is, AQ members have been on the US payroll in the past

[rise_up]

i am appaled by this........i'm not saying anything,but if these people were the same ones involved with 9-11 (peace to all who were affected)
then we trully need to forget things like live8 (G8 too) and get out there and combat this threat.....i am anti-war but how many attacks will it take for governments to wake up and realise that we need to fight these terrorist bastards.(yes,i know,but fuck 'em)

---9-11
------london
---------
------------what's next?
stop them before they strike again.Mr Blair i'm calling you out!!!!!!!

[bunk]

Could this have been planted by the state? It's perfect timing for Blair to be honest. Now he ca neasily push through id cards and so-forth turn this country in to more of a police state while also diverting attention from AQfrica and climate change.

[Bannockburn]

And reactions such as that is exactly what they want.

[rise_up]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 11:41 AM
Well...what can I say? They had it-comin', meh'supposeth ;)
(No, really, they had. I'm not fuckin' aroun' here;
If you embark on a war (plus denyin' Africa alot of
goods, in fear of their..."buisness relationships"), there's...
"informal" consequences, sotto speak, to be just as inhuman as
the terrorists!)
fuck you...if i had the choice i'd let them come to your town....GROW UP!!!..this a tradegy and if your gonna be like that,then you can get fucked...

[Bannockburn]

Could this have been planted by the state? It's perfect timing for Blair to be honest. Now he ca neasily push through id cards and so-forth turn this country in to more of a police state while also diverting attention from AQfrica and climate change.

I thought the samething. What better way to get the population back on your side than to remind them why “they are fighting a war on terror”.

It was probably designed by the British. It wouldn't surprise me. Hey, what better way to get the public back on your side than to remind them of “terror”. Expect one in the US soon. Let's not also mention how the police will now crush the G8 rally. Yeah Blair is right. There is no coincidence between this event and the G8. Probably designed that way...question is, who...the British, the Americans, or the Islamics?



fuck you...if i had the choice i'd let them come to your town....GROW UP!!!..this a tradegy and if your gonna be like that,then you can get fucked...

No, I'm sorry but I think you need to grow up, sit down and think. Your reaction is completely aligned with the state, and it completely shows that your a pseudo-anarchist, revolutionary, communist, socialist, etc. Don't you realize your reaction is exactly what the state, and those Islamic want you to feel. Listen up, and listen good. These events are caused, they just don't happen – now you can sit back, get all pissed off and ignore the causes, or sit back and think why this happened, and what policies created it.

Look it here. This didn't happen is Sweden because Sweden doesn't support harsh illegal wars. Your state caused this, and until you realize that, then you'll always will be an ally for their political ideals.

[rise_up]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 01:57 PM


Could this have been planted by the state? It's perfect timing for Blair to be honest. Now he ca neasily push through id cards and so-forth turn this country in to more of a police state while also diverting attention from AQfrica and climate change.

I thought the samething. What better way to get the population back on your side than to remind them why “they are fighting a war on terror”.

It was probably designed by the British. It wouldn't surprise me. Hey, what better way to get the public back on your side than to remind them of “terror”. Expect one in the US soon. Let's not also mention how the police will now crush the G8 rally. Yeah Blair is right. There is no coincidence between this event and the G8. Probably designed that way...question is, who...the British, the Americans, or the Islamics?
what? do you actually think that they set this up? sorry,but no one is that sick(except terrorists) if they had done this they may have a large problem on their hands (i.e the british public)

[bunk]

No, if they spin it right they can get the public on their side unless the public realise that it could be a fallout from us being in Iraq. The G8 leader care about a dozen deaths and permanent injuries? I don't think so.

[Bannockburn]

what? do you actually think that they set this up? sorry,but no one is that sick(except terrorists) if they had done this they may have a large problem on their hands (i.e the british public)

Well I'm not ruling anything out until the facts are out, or at least some creditable evidence. Its not really sick. It follows history. Governments have often planted false events for their own agenda. The US wanted to destroy one of its own planes in order to justify itself attacking Cuba. The US has set up programs to disseminate, and disrupt legit political parties through assassinations, riots, and threats.

[Sabocat]

i am anti-war but how many attacks will it take for governments to wake up and realise that we need to fight these terrorist bastards.(yes,i know,but fuck 'em)

A question. Who has killed more innocent people in the last 3 years....The U.S. and Britain or Al Qaeda?


fuck you...if i had the choice i'd let them come to your town....GROW UP!!!..this a tradegy and if your gonna be like that,then you can get fucked...

Don't you understand this nationalistic bullshit will just perpetuate this nonsense?

[Bannockburn]

Completely

[bunk]

If we believe that some of the G8 leaders could be behind this we can balance whether the economic loss from this is worth Bush and Blair being able to consolidate their positions in power, remove further civil liberties, rally the nations support, and possibly for deepining imperialist conflicts in the middle east

[DaCuBaN]

As an example, here is a news agency owned by Rupert Murdoch's report on the situation:


ATTACKS KILL 45, REPORTS
At least 45 people are reported to have been killed and 1,000 injured in a series of terror attacks on London.

compared to the BBC:


London Rocked by Terror Attacks
At least two people have been killed and scores injured after three blasts on the Underground network and another on a double-decker bus in London.

Just for those of you who are still under the delusion that noone would lie about something like this...

[Bannockburn]

No, if they spin it right they can get the public on their side unless the public realise that it could be a fallout from us being in Iraq. The G8 leader care about a dozen deaths and permanent injuries? I don't think so.

That's a very good point. Read this quote by Bush in the New York Times. You want to talk about spin:





"On the one hand, you have people working to alleviate poverty and rid the world of the pandemic of AIDS and ways to have clean a environment, and on the other hand, you have people working to kill other people," the president said. "The contrast couldn't be clearer between the intentions and the hearts of those of us who care deeply about human rights and human liberty, and those who kill, those who've got such evil in their hearts that they will take the lives of innocent folks. The war on terror goes on."
This is from the guy who created a law where doctors can pull the plug of patients against the wishes of the families if they can't afford the costs. This is coming from a guy who insists that global warming is not happening and gets his information from oil companies. This is a guy who has killed more people in a day that Bin-Laden has ever. You want to talk about state propaganda. That is a perfect example of deceit, lies, hypocrisy, and politicians to use an event such as this as a catalyst to promote their cause, and spread further violence.

[More Fire for the People]

Originally posted by Additives Free+Jul 7 2005, 04:25 AM--> (Additives Free @ Jul 7 2005, 04:25 AM)
[email protected] 7 2005, 10:23 AM
we do need ID cards though,
Read 1984 [/b]
As an American we have semi-ID cards through SS and ID/Driver's Licenses.
It's not that bad, just a pain in the ass if you want to sign up to drive, receive free lunches at school, go to school, receive health care, not look suspicious, and receive welfare.

[bunk]

And disastrously for our cause most of the world relies on mainstream media and never looks closer.

[Bannockburn]

And disastrously for our cause most of the world relies on mainstream media and never looks closer.

Because of this implicitly assumed idea that media is the government's watch dog. Rather they serve the government interest, and in most cases, promote it.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Respect the forumrules folks, don't flame. Mark this as a warning.

Wish all the al'qaida, politicians, generals would be locked up in a single room and fight out their matters for themselves once. It's always the workingclass who takes the blows and who doesn't benefit.

[Bugalu Shrimp]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 01:34 PM
Go back to bed: You seriously got out on the wrong side today.
Move along, nothing to see...
It's not that, it's just that I was five minutes away from being incinerated by medievel nutters, I have been herded up a dirty pitch black track with hundreds of panicked people and am now a prisoner in my own office beacuse we work next to the mayors building.

So I'm sorry if I got a bit het up but I'm not a reactionary I am not going to start burning mosques or praising Bush & Blairs hideous war. I am angry and upset.

[Che1990]

At least 45 dead now, and about 1000 injured. I see why Al-Qaeda wanted to do this but there are ways and means of making a statement without killing innocents. They really are stupid (but you probably worked that out yourselves). Bush pissed me off though "It angers me that these people can so easily take the lives of innocent civilians." Hyppocrite! I'm not at school today, been watching BBC all day hearing the updates.

[Che1990]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 01:24 PM
As a socialist living in South London, I am devastated by the attacks and condemn them. The idiots who carry them out are not the "resistance" they are religious fanatics.

I feel sympathy to everyone who was caught up in them, including my best friend's mother.

It also reminds us what a great job Blair and Bush have done on making the world a safer place, thank you so much. Whilst they dine in their pathetic little hotel, I hope they are thinking that maybe their actions have something to do with suffering, in London, in Spain and of course Iraq.
My sentiments entirely. They are not innocent in this either.

[bunk]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 02:40 PM
At least 45 dead now, and about 1000 injured. I see why Al-Qaeda wanted to do this but there are ways and means of making a statement without killing innocents. They really are stupid (but you probably worked that out yourselves). Bush pissed me off though "It angers me that these people can so easily take the lives of innocent civilians." Hyppocrite! I'm not at school today, been watching BBC all day hearing the updates.
You must be watching Murdoch media. There are so far 33 dead known, didn't you read DaCuBaN's post?

[More Fire for the People]

33 known dead, 345 estimated injured, and an unknown ammount were killed or injured on the double-decker bus.

[rise_up]

sorry about earlier.We didn't need that.I just got a bit pissed off with the guy who said 'they had it comin to them' no one deserves this. and yes you were right we killed more innocents in the iraq war.And there is nothing we can do about that now.
so.......sorry to the iraqi civilians..and sorry to all who i pissed off..

p.s don't call me nationalist.

[Kitbag]

It's pretty awful. It seems like the Gov't could have done this, but it's so hard to tell. Are they really willing to take such risks and injuries to bring in a few bits of plastic in a couple of years?

[rise_up]

33 people for id cards.......i wouldn't put it past 'em

[FriedFrog]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 03:08 PM
It's pretty awful. It seems like the Gov't could have done this, but it's so hard to tell. Are they really willing to take such risks and injuries to bring in a few bits of plastic in a couple of years?
Seriously, what?

This is the work of extremist terrorists, probably al-Queda or a wing of it.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/...,1523397,00.htm (http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,12780,1523397,00.html)

[Phalanx]

I hope now Londoners look at the Mideast conflict with a new approach.

[TheKingOfMercy]

A bunch of Islamic terrorists have claimed responsibility. Londoners will hopefully look towards the islamic militants in their midst in a different manner now. less of this liberal bullshit.

[redstar2000]

The price of empire is a heavy one.

And it will get heavier.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[RedAnarchist]

What is so sad is that i can say with great certainly that more than half of the people maimed and slaughtered by the terrorists, whoever they may be, probably opposed the war in Iraq. Its not their fault that the leader of this country is a gutless fool who shys away from standing up to Bush each and every time he gets a chance to.

Terrorism is wrong. It is a sick, twisted person who sees civilians as legitokmate targets.

[TheKingOfMercy]

what's redstar on about ?

[Bannockburn]

It's pretty awful. It seems like the Gov't could have done this, but it's so hard to tell. Are they really willing to take such risks and injuries to bring in a few bits of plastic in a couple of years?

I wouldn't put is past them whatsoever. In my other posts, I argued it. What better way to get the population back on the state side with a designed attack to cattle them in. No terrorist organization with any credibility has taken responsibility according to the police. That is according to live CBC telecast right now. Don't put it past the government to initiate this in order to make the people become passive, and subordinate to state power. Come on guys, don't wuss on me now. Don't be a fair-whether political radicals, and when times get tough run back to mommy state.

This isn't liberal agendas pushing this attack. This is aggressive neo-con agendas initiating this attack, and using it to get the public back on there side, and to completely cruch the G8 meeting. Blair already said it. Its clear that is was not a coincidence that it correlated with the G8 Summit. Question is: who wanted it that way. You would think Islamic extremist would be in favor of protest of the G8.

look up my other posts to get a better picture.

[RedAnarchist]

The UK has commited some horrible acts in the name of imperialism and Empire - he could be suggesting that what goes around, comes around - although this is an attack on innocent civilians and not on the government or royal family.

[TheKingOfMercy]

This is the british government we're talking about, not an American one. Somebody has been watching conspiracy TV too much. Muslim militants have claimed responsibility, so why not take their word for it ?

[Bannockburn]

Why should we take there word for it? A Islamic organization that nobody has ever heard of has claimed responsibility. Hell for all we know it could be a government site. None of us have seen it. The British police has not confirmed it. That is according to CBC right now, this very moment. Just to say, “yep they did it” clearly shows lack of critical thinking skills. There is more questions than answers. Wait for the evidence guys.

[TheKingOfMercy]

The british police have actually confirmed it, the group is a recognised one with links to this al quaeda that the US managed to antagonise, and said group has claimed responsibility, so methinks that we can safely say they had cause and have shown the ability, so why go off on conspiracy theorist crap instead of accepting the truth ?

[bunk]

Actually it is an unknown group that claims to have links with Al Quaieda.

[TheKingOfMercy]

Well, tis more likely to be the french foreign legion than it is the British government. The UK has been bombed for years by the Irish and the conspiracy rubbish never came out then.

Unless the IRA is a sinister offshoot of microsoft, headed by Enron, and commanded really by sinister nationalists with big sticks.

[Bannockburn]

Who has confirmed it, and according to live coverage right now, they are still suspending judgment. Its hardly a conspiracy theory. Far from it actually. More like open to possibilities that are outside rhetorical tunes of standard state propaganda. Moreover, your statements seem unclear. The reports said in the beginning that this was attack was in retaliation for the British role in Iraq/Afghanistan. So it seems dubious at best to think the US was the sole antagonizer, and England had to pay for another's crimes. Secondly, if that is true what you say, it makes me suspect that an attack on the US maybe likely in the near future.

[TheKingOfMercy]

America will probably be attacked again, but the UK was a softer target now, less rampant nationalism and stringent border controlls here. Less risk, bigger results. In the US it'd take years to sort out, far too much difficulty for a bunch of extremists.

[Bugalu Shrimp]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 03:28 PM
what's redstar on about ?
Probably revelling in the violent death of innocent civilians because he thinks it proves some stupid point or other. Note the glee in his emphasis.

The fucked up ****s who did this are products of a extremist society and will continue to do it regardless of how many innocent Iraqi's die, because they care nothing for them. They only wish to spread extremist Islamic beliefs and that was true before 911, before Afghanistan and before Iraq pt II.

[Sabocat]

I don't see how you could make the leap that Redstar is revelling about the deaths with a statement about empire.



They only wish to spread extremist Islamic beliefs

Yes of course, the natural way to spread your beliefs is to kill people. :blink:


The fucked up ****s who did this are products of a extremist society

Hmmm....I wonder what made them extremists...

This isn't about beliefs, it's about retaliation. The point Redstar was trying to make I believe is that you'd better get used to it. If you've extended tentacles all over the planet exerting your will on other cultures this is what happens.

When you don't have and airforce that can carpet bomb entire towns, this is the way you fight.

[TheKingOfMercy]

The british empire died 50 years ago, we never colonised the middle-east, this is religious fanatics, the same kind that blew up the twin towers a couple of years ago.

All this revisionist crap about the empire being awfull and opressive is horseshit, life in africa for example is ten times worse now than it was then, and thats obvious proven fact.

Muslims bombed britain because it was a visible ally of the 'great satan', and was also a very soft target.

[bolshevik butcher]

I don;t think the goernment did it, unless you can come up with soem evidence for it. Terrorism is wrong, and trust murdoc to lie.

[Bugalu Shrimp]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 04:11 PM
Yes of course, the natural way to spread your beliefs is to kill people. :blink:


It's called religion.

[Sabocat]

Muslims bombed britain because it was a visible ally of the 'great satan', and was also a very soft target.

Visible ally? That's a rather mundane way to describe an occupation force. They bombed Britain because Britain is part of that occupation force currently in Iraq responsible for killing and torturing the populace.

[Forward Union]

Im more worried about the "Bloody arab immigrant" point of view that might get inflamed...racial tension is never a good thing.

[TheKingOfMercy]

actually most of that has been proven as sensationalist fabrication, British troops actively try to make Iraqi life as easy as possible, hearts and minds and all that, its US forces that are the problematic types, thinking that everyone wants to see the stars and stripes everywhere.

Like I said, visible ally, soft target.

[slim]

The war in Iraq is looking more like northern Irish opinion of the British every day. First they thought they would be protectors, now they are making attacks on the British heartland. Such a group must have power indeed. Maybe funding.

[codyvo]

What's really scary to me is that the american terror alert is now orange or will be soon. Once it is to red they can simply cancel elections and Bush will basically have total control of everything that happens in the country.

I wouldn't rule out the possibility of the British or American governments doing something like this, just like the 9/11 attacks, islamic fundamentalists may have carried out the actions but, who put the bombs on the Washington bridge? Who blew up World Trade Center number 7? It doesn't seemed that farfetched.

[Organic Revolution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 10:35 AM
Such a group must have power indeed. Maybe funding.
are you saying you want to fund these groups?

[Patchy]

Don't know if this has been said yet, but I'll say it anyway (Too lazy to read the whole thread, pressed for time).

This will more than likely close the doors on the endcapitalism//povertynow causes, and is going to turn everyones eyes back to the war on terror, except, probably, Canada and Japan. Perfect fucking timing.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 10:28 AM
what's redstar on about ?
When you live in an empire (or a close ally of one) then there are costs to be paid.

It's not just a big jolly romp in the green fields of globalization.

World War II wasn't the average German's "fault"...but something close to 10 million average Germans paid the price.

U.S. imperialism wasn't the responsibility of the average New Yorker...but around 3,000 of them paid the price (with more to come).

And the average Londoner was not responsible for Tony Blair's decision to hitch a ride on U.S. imperialism and carve out a new British colony in southern Iraq...but average Londoners paid the price (which will get higher).

It serves no useful purpose to indulge yourself in self-righteous indignation at the "terrorist devils" -- the regime under which you live has done far worse deeds on an almost daily basis. Retaliation was and remains inevitable.

Likewise, whining about "civilian targets" will accomplish nothing. Al-Qaida would dearly love to get Bush & Blair personally...but they are far too well protected to make that a practical possibility. Churchill would have dearly loved killing Hitler in one of "Bomber Harris's" raids (and Hitler would have dearly loved killing Churchill during the "Blitz")...it just couldn't be managed.

If your personal safety concerns you deeply, remember that Europe is only a couple of hours away by train. Leave the empire behind and its difficulties will no longer concern you.

Or stay and accept the risks. I live in the U.S. but in a "low-profile" city...I'm sure we are very far down on Al-Qaida's list.

I'm sure the survivors of the London bombings are asking themselves this evening "why us?" and "why me?".

Because you live in an empire...and this is the part of the costs of that empire that your leaders rarely warn you about.

The ruling class benefits from empire; the working class pays for it.

And the price is not just measured in dollars or pounds sterling...it's also measured in torn flesh and spilt blood.

When you see what it took to teach the Germans and the Japanese the folly of empire, you realize that Americans and British have not yet paid the initial installment.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[viva le revolution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 04:14 PM
The british empire died 50 years ago, we never colonised the middle-east, this is religious fanatics, the same kind that blew up the twin towers a couple of years ago.

All this revisionist crap about the empire being awfull and opressive is horseshit, life in africa for example is ten times worse now than it was then, and thats obvious proven fact.

Muslims bombed britain because it was a visible ally of the 'great satan', and was also a very soft target.
1.No my uninformed friend. The empire lives on through corporations and capitalism.
2.You live in London and you say that WE never colonized the mid-east? i think you need a history lecture on the british empire. The Suez crisis, the colonization of palestine as a mandate after world war 1, egypt....the list of british intervention goes on.
and most currently i think the U.K was the principal partner alongwith the U.S on the war in Iraq(which is in the mid-east) :huh:
3. Well so in your opinion the british empire was the bringer of the light to the dark continent spreading civiliztion and christian decency to a savage people.all they brought to the continent was slavery! get off that high horse of yours and acknowledge the fact that colonialism was an evil.
4. ASfrica is ten times worse now? i wonder why that is? could it be capitalism and imperialism or the non-interest of european governments for the third-world as opposed to their own interests? :blink:
5. well the timing of the bombings.....coinciding with a drstic fall in global support for the war in Iraq, The g8 summit, quite coincidental wouldn't you agree?
By the way my friend, don't spout off crap like that. Don't make judgements of the third world or any regions outside your own unless you have lived there yourself. anybody can watch the news and read books and claim to be a genius.

[Invader Zim]

If your personal safety concerns you deeply, remember that Europe is only a couple of hours away by train. Leave the empire behind and its difficulties will no longer concern you.

Firstly, the UK is part of Europe, I dislike it when people, usually conservatives, attempt to try and distance us from the rest of the continent.

Secondly 'Europe' as you put it has been the victim of terrorist attacks of her own. Spain was bombed, and nearly all the countries have their own home grown terrorist organisations.

Thirdly, Al-Quada does not just fight the nation belonging to the Iraq coalition; they fight the entire Western world, because of the western exploitation of Saudi Arabia, which they consider trespassing on a traditional Muslim Holy land. If you recall, 9/11 occurred prior to the Iraq war.

When you see what it took to teach the Germans and the Japanese the folly of empire, you realize that Americans and British have not yet paid the initial installment.


If you consider that 5% of the male population in the UK was killed in the first world war, which was a direct result of the clash of empire, I think you will find that you are grossly mistaken.

[Entrails Konfetti]

I'm sorry I haven't read all of your replies to this thread.
But,I feel I must write something to make myself feel better.

My sister was around Russell Square where one of these attacks happened,thankfully she was at a hotel and not out in the rush-hour traffic.

My nationally is Anglo-America by the way.But, in no way is my loyalty to any county,my loyalty is with the working people of the world. I have no fucking country !

The working people are stuck and targetted by both of these sides. The Religious Fanatics on the side of Christ want us to carry out THEIR veiws,and these Fanatics on the sides of Allah target us because we are "infidels".Both sides think they are more human than us,one side thinks because they have the "god-given" right to make capital off of us,and both sides agree in the sense that we aren't of their religion.

The occupying Colonalist Governments in the Middle-East can spend more on state security all they fucking like.Its not going to stop these Fanatical Terrorists.
All it is really going to do is repress the working people, so they can't oppose,and if they do,"They are terrorists,they are against humanity".

No one is going to look after our class interests,were going to have to do it ourselves.We risk being labeled terrorists. Remember this, you and me will never target the working people.How can we? We ARE the working people ! I'll die trying if I have to !

The fat cat heads of state are not inhuman,they just think they are MORE human than us. They need to be cut down to size. The people who defend their repressive governments are not inhuman,they just don't know any better.

We must stay strong, and if you must cry and show emotion for the deaths of our working people,do so. In no way is crying a weakness,it is a strength and virtue that shows you care.

I for one do not support any reactionary organization that targets regular working people, those of you who support Al-Quieda are cowards. Those who support Al-Quieda, aknowledge this,they may be against Western Imperalism too but,they are against us aswell, for we are "infidels".Al-Quieda obviously doesn't acknowledge class-struggle and the plight of the working people.

May strength and compassion unite us all.
Solidarity,
-Alex

[TheKingOfMercy]

vive la revolution - go read some real history, live in the real world for a bit, and see you can't blame everything on capitalism and evil nasty meany empires. You tit. Colonialism was an evil when it was killing people, when they were improving the quality of life of the people and giving them an income and purpose in life it was evil, but leftist revisionist types tend to ignore that.

They also ignore the fact that the British Empire at least abolished slavery

The british empire never claimed any middle eastern countries as its own, as they already belonged to other empires/monarchs etc etc etc. Read an un-PC version of history, do you some good.

And really, I wasnt spouting off crap, africa is a crap hole of dictators, unending civil wars and AIDS. Or is that the fault of the evil nasty capitalists aswel ?

I also dont see this british colony in southern Iraq redstar. Is this another invention so that the mean evil dastardly imperialists end up deserving their wives blown to bits by islamic extremists ? If you got blown appart tomorrow, would you accept it ? No, didnt thinkso, you'd be rightly pissed off.

The nazi party in germany in the 1930's was ELECTED into power. thus, the average german was to blame.

[Sabocat]

If you recall, 9/11 occurred prior to the Iraq war.

Iraq II actually. The U.S. had continually bombed Iraq from the Gulf War I (G.H.W.Bush term), through Clinton's and then resumed full scale with an invasion currently under GW. Iraq was pretty much continually bombed for almost 10 years. That's bound to piss someone off.

It is true that they were also concerned with Western powers bases in Saudi Arabia desecrating sacred soil etc, etc. The bottom line is however, if the U.S. wasn't strategically positioned all over the middle east, it probably wouldn't have happened in the first place.

[Entrails Konfetti]

You could say Colonialist Governments in the Middle-East improved the standard of living for the people a bit.But, in no way did they do it out of compassion,behold the almighty capital and the advancing of it for benefit of ouselves! In no way were the Colonialists truly looking after intrests of the people.

Whose benefited more,the peasants and weorking people or the big big corporations ?

Theres not an ounce of sincerity with-in colonialism.

[YKTMX]

Colonialism was an evil when it was killing people, when they were improving the quality of life of the people and giving them an income and purpose in life it was evil, but leftist revisionist types tend to ignore that.



Haha. So murder and famine is FINE if it's peppered with some good stuff? So, if Osama Bin Laden set up a youth club in Edgware. it would sort of "make up for things" would it? Idiot.



And really, I wasnt spouting off crap, africa is a crap hole of dictators, unending civil wars and AIDS. Or is that the fault of the evil nasty capitalists aswel ?


Yes.


I also dont see this british colony in southern Iraq redstar. Is this another invention so that the mean evil dastardly imperialists end up deserving their wives blown to bits by islamic extremists

Why don't you look up which nation CREATED the state of Iraq then get back to us.


The nazi party in germany in the 1930's was ELECTED into power

False. The Nazis never had a working majority and Hitler was APPOINTED Chancellor. Do you wish to continue giving lectures in "un-PC" History?



Apart from this idiot, any humanist will rightly condemn these attacks for this attacks for what they are: barbaric and politically useless. They don't represent the anti-imperialist movement.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by TheKingOfMercy
I also don't see this British colony in southern Iraq, redstar. Is this another invention so that the mean evil dastardly imperialists end up deserving their wives blown to bits by Islamic extremists? If you got blown apart tomorrow, would you accept it? No, didn't think so, you'd be rightly pissed off.

If you fail to see southern Iraq as a new British colony (whatever it might be called), then you are simply blind...and neither I nor anyone else can help restore your sight.

As to my personal reaction to being "blown up", of course I would be pissed off.

So what?

I get pissed off when the weather gets cold and I have to go outside for some purpose that can't be delayed. For some inexplicable reason, the planet doesn't give a rat's ass about my personal preferences.

U.S. and British imperialism doesn't give a rat's ass about the personal preferences of the people it murders...or even just inconveniences.

Why should Al-Qaida? Did they somehow overlook the central question of your personal importance in the universal scheme of things? :lol:


The Nazi party in Germany in the 1930's was ELECTED into power. Thus, the average German was to blame.

Well, no. The Nazis were never able to win an actual majority in the German Reichstag...even in their faked election of 1933, they only won 43% of the vote.

But, if I'm not mistaken, the "Labour" party has won a majority of the votes in the last three elections.

So, by the standards of your logic, the average Englishman/woman "is to blame" for British imperialism in the Middle East.

See where your imperial nonsense leads?

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[AnarchoCommunist]

I think someone should be restricting the KingofMercy to Oppossing Ideologies (OI).

He is a ignorant right wing imperialist and a supporter of colonialism.

He has ALL of the qualifications for being restricted to OI.

[YKTMX]

But, if I'm not mistaken, the "Labour" party has won a majority of the votes in the last three elections.

Actually, the LP only won 36% at the last election.

[Entrails Konfetti]

If Colonialism was to get out of the Middle-East, will this end Islamic Fundementalist attacks ?

We are still "Infidels" after all, and they may wish to convert us.

[YKTMX]

Originally posted by EL [email protected] 7 2005, 06:56 PM
If Colonialism was to get out of the Middle-East, will this end Islamic Fundementalist attacks ?

We are still "Infidels" after all, and they may wish to convert us.
Don't talk nonsense. The Muslim fundamentalists don't like us "Infidels" that's for sure. What they really don't like is us bombing their children in their beds, occupying their brothers and sponsoring Western puppet regimes?

[Entrails Konfetti]

Originally posted by YouKnowTheyMurderedX+Jul 7 2005, 06:59 PM--> (YouKnowTheyMurderedX @ Jul 7 2005, 06:59 PM)
EL [email protected] 7 2005, 06:56 PM
If Colonialism was to get out of the Middle-East, will this end Islamic Fundementalist attacks ?

We are still "Infidels" after all, and they may wish to convert us.
Don't talk nonsense. The Muslim fundamentalists don't like us "Infidels" that's for sure. What they really don't like is us bombing their children in their beds, occupying their brothers and sponsoring Western puppet regimes? [/b]
I don't mean to talk nonsense.Its just I don't know if they'd stop or not. I haven't seen many facts that they would or wouldn't.

I can only judge religious fundementalist behavior,those damned annoying Christian Fundementalists are always threatening me with my own "immortallity" that may or may not exist, on the grounds that I will burn infinately in such a fantastical place called "Hell".

[TheKingOfMercy]

anarchocommunist ? are you another arm-chair 16 year old revolutionary ? I am not an ignorant right-wing support of imperialism. Im a rather well educated supporter of imperialism thank you very much. And why should I be restricted for speaking my mind ? not very left-wing of you is it ? You tit.

The coalition forces in Iraq are not colonising, they are fighting their misguided war for oil, and will leave eventually, just like vietnam, but in a desert. They'll go home and proclaim their false greatness eventually.

and less than a half of the population have voted labour for the last two elections redstar thankyou very much :) do your research :)

If you hadnt noticed (or hadnt bothered looking up) the british government is full of people like you lot - soppy left-wing apologists who just want to make the world a fluffy nice place for the multitude. Terrorist attacks is what they get for their 'multiculturalism' bull, so again, do your research again before you take up ancient history about a dead empire as your main point. You tit.

[SLoW Woo]

The propaganda machine is already rolling strong on this event. I live in Northwest Florida, in the states, and the radio here is filled with it. I learned that not only are these people not acting for themselves but they are acting for the devil and this is all the work of the devil. It gets better though, because on the local talk radio station some politician from Florida (I really don’t remember which one) was talking about how this, the attacks in London, is a sign that security here in the states is not working. He also went on to say that these actions should be taken as a sign the security in the states should be ‘upgraded’ and more laws should be passed to keep ‘these people out of our country’. As I was working at the time I didn’t get to see what was on television but I imagine it is close to the same. Most of the local stations that were talking about it were saying almost the same things about how homeland security is not working and we need more. The only thing different that I heard, if you can call it different, was that the attacks in London were because of liberal judges in the states.
I would not be suprised at all if this as used as 'evidence' that more laws need to be passed to take away what little rights we have, both here in the states and in other countries. One thing is for certain though, I hate living in a city that is almost all republican, with nothing but right-wing media.

[Invader Zim]

Yes.

And no, at the same time.


Why don't you look up which nation CREATED the state of Iraq then get back to us.

Why don't you do the same, Britain never created Iraq, it was like Palestine, a province of various empire for a long time. Prior to the first world war it was part of the Ottoman empire. When the Ottoman empire was stripped of its colonial assets, Iraq was placed under British mandate, by the league of nations. As such that recognised Iraq as a nation, temporarily (in theory) under the administrative control of another nation, rather than just a province. Thus if you want to point fingers then don't just look at Britain, try the entire membership of the league of nations.

You may think that this guy needs to read some history, but I suggest that you get off your ass and actually do some research your self before thinking that you can be so condescending.

False.

True.

The Nazis never had a working majority and Hitler was APPOINTED Chancellor.

And? You don't need a majority to win an election, you need to have the most votes. Hitler had the most votes, he won the election (when he formed a coalition with another party), and after much delaying from the republic, until it was impossible to delay further. Despite your misplaced ideas, I can assure you that Hitler did win the election, because he had more votes than the opposition parties.

[novemba]

Islamic Fundementalism is the illegitimate baby of imperialism no matter what you say.

Islam is about peace and coexistance, and any true muslim condemns with all their hearts any sort of terrorist attack in the name of Islam.

Its Ok, to disagree with believing in 'God', after all I do too, but don't stereotype or generalize people of faith just cause you disagree with them. It's their falsehoods, let them have them, but you have no right to tell them they can't.

[YKTMX]

And no, at the same time.

Really? "crap hole of dictators"

Most supported at one time by the West.

"unending civil wars"

Caused by Western colonialism.

"AIDS"

Complex. Still, the west (the US) has promoted disastorous "abistence" policies and denied Africa the right to proper medicines.


Thus if you want to point fingers then don't just look at Britain, try the entire membership of the league of nations.


The "entire" LON, try France and Britain then.


True.

"The Nazis were elected into POWER". That statement is untrue. The Nazis had a majority in the plularistic sense but they never had a working majority.


You don't need a majority to win an election, you need to have the most votes.

Where did I say you did? The question was POWER, something diffirent from elections, yes?


Despite your misplaced ideas, I can assure you that Hitler did win the election, because he had more votes than the opposition parties.


I never doubted he won the election so don't misrepresent me please. The Nazis never "won" power because the power in Germany was the Chancellorship and the Presidency, Hitler realised this. The Nazi won power in January 1933, so I'm afraid it's you who needs to brush up on your history.

[Free Palestine]

Suspiciously convenient timing that anyone would chose to attack London now, when people were begining to wake up about the free trade agenda and profit-engrossed transnationals who are raping and completely decimating third world country's economies with these neo-liberal reforms. Not that they the G8 were going to come up with any real changes, but this gives them an excuse under agitation from the general citizenry.

[Invader Zim]

Really? "crap hole of dictators"

While, I personally would have used different terminology, it can not be denied that Africa has problems.


Most supported at one time by the West.

I wouldn't like to say, not without the stats to hand.



The "entire" LON, try France and Britain then.

If you want to try and patronise me, you could at least get a clue, you have forgotten two of the original four permanent members of the council, Italy and Japan, never mind basic membership. Over 40 countries joined the league at its conception. So no, not just France and Britain.

That statement is untrue.

No, that statement is perfectly true, they won the election.

The Nazis had a majority in the plularistic sense but they never had a working majority.

And? That is irrelevant, they had the most votes, they won election. Whether or not they had a majority is immaterial.


Where did I say you did?

When you incorrectly stated that the Nazi’s failed to win the election.


I never doubted he won the election so don't misrepresent me please.



"The Nazis were elected into POWER". That statement is untrue.

I'm not misrepresenting anything, you were perfectly clear.

The Nazis never "won" power because the power in Germany was the Chancellorship and the Presidency, Hitler realised this.

Wrong, you have a totally misplaced view of the Weimar republic.

There were three important bodies of power, the president, the Chancellor and the Reichstag.

The president who had only constitutionally limited powers. the president Hindenburg was a foolish old man, who miscalculated Hitler repeatedly.

The Reichstag, which was elected by the people, and took the role of a parliament, and it turn elected the Chancellor.

The chancellor who would only remain in power as long as the Reichstag supported him.


Of course the system was designed with coalition governments in mind, but the nature of German politics of the day, made the creation of a coalition near to impossible.

Thus having control of the Reichstag, by having the largest number of members ensured Hitler power over two of the factions of government, by default. As such, Hitler had achieved power by winning the election. Thus Hitler won power.

so I'm afraid it's you who needs to brush up on your history.

Think what you like, but its blindingly obvious that your back peddling like mad.

[AnarchoCommunist]

No Im not some "arm-chair 16 year old revolutionary"!

Just because I don't follow your reactionary imperialist bullshit and don't spew every reactionary slant on history that people with no ability to think for themselves (like you) do, you automatically think Im some teenager who has had no real experience of life.

FYI, Im 22, work full time, have to look after my family after my mother had just come out of a ruinous marriage and have been paying and supporting myself for a good few years.

From your posts, I can see that you don't have any knowledge of history.

Yeah, the British Empire was the best thing ever for all those 'savages' in the third world, the Empire gave so much such as:

*Slavery

*Amritsar Massacre of 1919

*Killing of Aboriginals and Maoris in NZ and Austrailia

*Racial segregation in South Africa and Rhodesia

*Child labour in MANY African countries.

And southern Iraq is a British colony!

All that crap about 'hearts and minds' is a load of shit that means nothing

The US/UK have killed many more people than Islamist could ever dream of!

I also find your racist comments about 'multicutural' society being the main problem, in your eyes, for terrorism in the UK.

Well I don't see any black, hindu, sikh, jewish communities blowing places up!

But since they are part of the 'multicultural society', they must somehow be part of the problem, in your racist eyes.

Depsite your denials, you are a reactionary, ignorant, imperialistic piece of shit.

You have shown in your posts that you do need a few more years of history lessons, before you make any more stupid claims about Hitler being elected (he was appointed!) or the Empire (the British Empire was on par with Hitlers Empire, racist, murderous and expansionist).

As a rule on this forum, rightwingers and racist like yourself belong in OI, so fuck off there or fuck off to some neo-con or whit-power forum, you will really be at home over there!

[TheKingOfMercy]

Whats the point in preaching to the choir ? It's interesting to see how your types respond, especially if it's different from the usual 'CAPITALISM IS EVIL !!! THE WORLD IS DYING BECAUSE OF MONEY !!!' kind of shit.

Why is saying multiculturalism causes problems racist ? because its not politically correct ? because I might offend someone ? Fuck off and call the guy killing blacks in the street racist, I just stated fact. And no, I would not be at home in a neo-con or white power site, these are full of stupid idiots who think the white race is superior to every other. I just state pure fact.

And again, I am not ignorant, explain how you people use the term reactionary ? because I get different versions wherever I go, and there is nothing wrong with Imperialism if it is used for the good of people. The british empire was never has bad as hitler, this is also historical fact. The worst empire in history was the one that so many of your type run around carrying the badge and colours of - The so called 'USSR'.

And I can think for myself, which is why I dont wear a pretty hammer and sickle and blame everything on the evils of capitalism. I can blame things equally on racists, imperialists, communists, the french, the americans, the english, pick a culture, I can blame it for something in history. Or is that against the rules of hating mean old capitalism ?

[viva le revolution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 06:21 PM
vive la revolution - go read some real history, live in the real world for a bit, and see you can't blame everything on capitalism and evil nasty meany empires. You tit. Colonialism was an evil when it was killing people, when they were improving the quality of life of the people and giving them an income and purpose in life it was evil, but leftist revisionist types tend to ignore that.

They also ignore the fact that the British Empire at least abolished slavery

The british empire never claimed any middle eastern countries as its own, as they already belonged to other empires/monarchs etc etc etc. Read an un-PC version of history, do you some good.

And really, I wasnt spouting off crap, africa is a crap hole of dictators, unending civil wars and AIDS. Or is that the fault of the evil nasty capitalists aswel ?

I also dont see this british colony in southern Iraq redstar. Is this another invention so that the mean evil dastardly imperialists end up deserving their wives blown to bits by islamic extremists ? If you got blown appart tomorrow, would you accept it ? No, didnt thinkso, you'd be rightly pissed off.

The nazi party in germany in the 1930's was ELECTED into power. thus, the average german was to blame.
Ok so you establish a colony and give the people an income so suddenly you are the good guy? What about a thing known as Sovreignity and dignity. How would you feel if someone took over your country then robbed your land of raw materials and labour. then that would give you a purpose in life would it not?of course it would to kick those bastards off your land.How did they improve the quality of life please enlighten me.
Ok so dragging those poor africans off their land, crowding them onto ships and bringing them to the carribbean and america and forcing them to work on plantations for no income at all. then decades later, after your pockets are already full then coming out with a piece of paper to emanicipate them(which was their right anyway), and suddenly you are the good guy? Sorry but wake out of that dream of yours.
Alright, egypt, persia(split into Iraq and Iran by britain),palestine were not british colonies in your view?
I live in Pakistan that was partitioned off india as a direct result of british imperialism. so please any queries about british colonialism you may have i will be happy to answer.
Now back to your fish and chips outside buckingham you tit!

[viva le revolution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 09:52 PM


And again, I am not ignorant, explain how you people use the term reactionary ? because I get different versions wherever I go, and there is nothing wrong with Imperialism if it is used for the good of people. The british empire was never has bad as hitler, this is also historical fact. The worst empire in history was the one that so many of your type run around carrying the badge and colours of - The so called 'USSR'.


Wrong, if you have read Hitler's mein kampf, in it the crazy bastard expresses a profound admiration of the british empire. the conquests of Germany during world war2 were designed to replicate the pattern of the british empire.
Eastern europe and the Baltic states were to be ethnically cleansed to provide for resettlement for aryan peoples, much in the same pattern as north america.
Western europe was to serve as a source of capital and cheap labour for the reich in the pattern of india.(now please don't deny that india was ever a british colony.)

[TheKingOfMercy]

North america was cleansed primarily by post-revolution americans. The european colonists didnt really go out of their way to massacre them, they werent hurting anyone.

Hitler based his ideas on the british empire ? so what ?Stalin based his ideas loosely on marx, does that mean the two are directly comparable ? Nope.

I always thought pakistan was partitioned away because the pakistanis and the Indians didnt get on, and the pakistanis wanted their own land, palestine style.

And well, look and Zimbabwe, before it was given 'freedom' by liberals, it was a fairly prosperous agricutlural country (although named Rhodesia), after the empire was kicked out, it stayed so, until the so called 'marxist' Mugabe got the idea to kill every white man in 'his' country, and reduce it to a debt ridden waste of national borders.

Whilst it may not have made the countries into utopias, at least british imperialism provided stability to areas that needed it. Even India wasnt stupid enough to go for two full-scale rebellions, they took the peacfull protest route, and won, got sane leaders into power, and still to this day use the colonial buildings and mechanisms of government. At least I've been lead to believe that.

Africa was de-colonised when Imperialism went out of fashion with leftists in the 60's and 70's, none of these nations were really ready for independance, but liberal types forced these changes, and look at the mess now.

So therefore, with a little bit of logical thought, liberals and leftists could easily be blamed for africas problems aswell as any empire.

[resisting arrest with violence]

The Empire is Struck Back

I applaud and support these terrorist attacks on London One Googolplex percent.

Swallow your medicine, Brits. One Hundred thousand innocent Iraqis have been killed in the second Imperialist war of this century. Did you guys see Tony Blair on t.v. going on and on about Britain and her allies' devotion to humanity, liberty and so on? It's enough to make you lose your food.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Googolplex

[novemba]

Who is this guy?

Someone ban him please.

[resisting arrest with violence]

Or at least restrict me to the Trash Can forum!

[viva le revolution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 10:34 PM
North america was cleansed primarily by post-revolution americans. The european colonists didnt really go out of their way to massacre them, they werent hurting anyone.

Hitler based his ideas on the british empire ? so what ?Stalin based his ideas loosely on marx, does that mean the two are directly comparable ? Nope.

I always thought pakistan was partitioned away because the pakistanis and the Indians didnt get on, and the pakistanis wanted their own land, palestine style.

And well, look and Zimbabwe, before it was given 'freedom' by liberals, it was a fairly prosperous agricutlural country (although named Rhodesia), after the empire was kicked out, it stayed so, until the so called 'marxist' Mugabe got the idea to kill every white man in 'his' country, and reduce it to a debt ridden waste of national borders.

Whilst it may not have made the countries into utopias, at least british imperialism provided stability to areas that needed it. Even India wasnt stupid enough to go for two full-scale rebellions, they took the peacfull protest route, and won, got sane leaders into power, and still to this day use the colonial buildings and mechanisms of government. At least I've been lead to believe that.

Africa was de-colonised when Imperialism went out of fashion with leftists in the 60's and 70's, none of these nations were really ready for independance, but liberal types forced these changes, and look at the mess now.

So therefore, with a little bit of logical thought, liberals and leftists could easily be blamed for africas problems aswell as any empire.
1. Pakistanis and Indians were getting along fine and were not really separated on communal grounds. The british came along and implemented the divide and conquer strategy. pitting one raja against the next and so on. in 1857 the indians launched a war of independance. This was took part in by both indians and muslims. then only did the british crown assume direct control over india.(before this it was only the british east india company).
Blaming the uprising mostly on muslims and the weak mughal king, Bahadur shah zafar, they deposed him and favoured the hindus more. this was to drive a wedge between hindus and muslims to prevent any joint action in future.
As a result, distrust developed between the two communities. and they were divided along communal lines.The hindus occupying most of the important posts and the muslims remaining backward in comparison.
Come 1947, when lord mountbatten partitioned india he gave the conditions for seceding either to india and pakistan based on religious majority in an area . Kashmir had a hindu king who preferred india. so to accomodate him mountbatten gave the area of Jalandhar to india despite a muslim majority there to give india direct land access to kashmir. Before resolving the issue, the british left leaving india and pakistan to pay for the follies of the british. As a result in 1948, both went to war that resulted in a standstill, again in the sixties, then in 1971, which resulted in the creation of Bangladesh.
now you tell me how did british imperialism benefit india and pakistan, they entered one country and left it in two.
2. India's movement was anything but peaceful, in 1987 what you british imperialists call the great mutiny, the amritsar massacre, the massacre at jalandhar bagh, the quit-india movement that turned violent, and finally partition that led to one of the greatest exodus' of human history with entire trainloads coming full of dead bodies, cut down by the opposite sides enroute. any indian member of this forum would confirm this.
3. your position in this post indicates your firm belief in the "white man's burden" to quote rudyard kipling, as the civilizer of the world. that no nation is able to function without european colonialism and no nation is capable of sustaining itself without the "incomes" provided by the colonizers(if you could call them that).
any more questions and i will gladly answer them alongwith any Indian comrades on this forum who too will guide you to what our common people have suffered at the hands of british imperialism and paying the price for the white man's burden.

[TheKingOfMercy]

Thanks for the history lesson, I didnt really understand too much about Indian/Pakistani history in depth or at all.

I must disagree though, I dont see it as 'the white man's burden' to civilise the world or anything like that, I was just pointing out, in my final paragraph, the a lot of ex-colonies that couldnt stand on their own have gone to shit because of independance, a lot of the bigger one's havent of course.

I'm probably making my point really badly, but read what I said about zimbabwe and forced independance in the 60's / 70's again, see if you can understand why I dont think the empire was all that bad compared to modern situations in those countries.

[EneME]

Funny...tragedies such as today&#39;s events in London really brings out everyone&#39;s true colors. I am quite impressed by some who have posted in this thread, quite dissappointed at others, and simply disgusted at a few&#33; <_< Real anti-imperialism and revolutionary sentiments shine through every post, and I am proud to call some of you real comrades&#33;

Pseudo revolutionary thinkers: listen to your own words, be open minded to your fellow comrade, stop thinking with your heart, and start thinking with your mind&#33;

[viva le revolution]

I understand your point. but my position on this is that the problems wouldn&#39;t arise at all if colonialism had not entered those countries in the first place. your mugabe comparison arises from the apartheid system set in place by colonial powers in south africa and disproportionate wealth going to whites who settled there. Thats the real root of the problem which wouldn&#39;t arise at all if if colonialism had just left that region alone.

[TheKingOfMercy]

Well, it has happened, and constantly saying &#39;if if if&#39; wont get us anywhere, we need to forget about past mess-ups and present real solutions for these people, a sort of voluntary imperial-state system (similiar to the USA or EU), would allow the countries to develop past warring and constant despots and famine, maybe bring them out of dark-age religion and ways of living.

Socialism could also have it&#39;s benefits, but tis very difficult to work right, and would probably just fail like it has everywhere else.

Colonialism was not a good thing, granted, but the mess caused by people who believed it&#39;s entire existence was bad is worse, think, if the british empire still commanded africa, would AIDS be half as bad as it is ? would mugabe be murdering hundreds of thousands. But lets not dwell on the past.

Im glad we could talk rather than some other idiot who threatened to beat me up then asked for me to be banned, for having differing view points. I&#39;ll be banned or restricted soon anyway though.

[Phalanx]

How could AIDS be any different? Also, the UK wasn&#39;t the only imperialist monster in Africa, notably Belgium comes to mind. They treated the Congolese like animals, killed thousands in forced work camps, and packed their bags as soon as they were done with them. My point isn&#39;t that Belgium should be bombed as well, my point is aimed at those who believe there is no such thing as neo-colonialism. London was probably bombed because of its forces that occupy southern Iraq, not because of past offenses of imperialism.

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 05:08 PM
I must disagree though, I dont see it as &#39;the white man&#39;s burden&#39; to civilise the world or anything like that, I was just pointing out, in my final paragraph, the a lot of ex-colonies that couldnt stand on their own have gone to shit because of independance,
That is the "white man&#39;s burden" idea.

[TheKingOfMercy]

That&#39;s historical fact, twist it as you must of course.

and AIDS would not be half as bad, because there wouldnt be despotic rulers controlling money needed for medical supplies and prevention methods and all that.

and some of the lesser-colonists were worse, simply becasue they could be. The british empire had certain standards of &#39;englishness&#39;, and a worldly profile (which I know you all disagree with on principle, even the good bits), that largely prevented wholesale slaughter of peoples and the destruction of cultures (I said largely because it did happen).

[viva le revolution]

that&#39;s what these forums are for. to learn through discussion.
However a supra-imperialist body governing the african region will have no effects on allieviating the condition of the african people. Since it is empires that did not really work for the betterment of the colonies but for vested interests such as the availibility of cheap raw materials.
One such supra-internationalist body is the united nations which has proved ineffective in resolving any of the conflicts plaguing the continent. case in point; Rwanda.
Another is the african union which has displayed it&#39;s ineffectiveness in managing humanitarian or military situations.
Socialism will involve hard work but it is the only system that will address the issues and conflicts from an internationalist and not a nationalist perspective. Thus paving the way for solving conflicts through reason and rationality instead of patriotism that only adds fuel to the fire.

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 05:30 PM
and AIDS would not be half as bad, because there wouldnt be despotic rulers controlling money needed for medical supplies and prevention methods and all that.
Far from fact, that&#39;s something called a...."counterfactual". There&#39;s no way of knowing what "would" have happened, and arguing about it is just wanking.

Now something we do know, because it&#39;s happened in the real world, is the effectiveness of the Cuban public health system in combatting the spread of AIDS. And no, it&#39;s not based on locking up people with AIDS in concentration camps. Even the National Review had an article titled "How Cuba Cured AIDS" in which they admitted its effectiveness.

Socialist revolution, not imperialism, is the answer.

[Moonfire]

"It angers me that these people can so easily take the lives of innocent civilians."

George Bush has said a few things to this effect. However maybe somebody should take the time to remind him about the innocent civilians killed in baghdad bomb runs.

[Thomas]

Now, I haven&#39;t read any of the replies, because I&#39;m spent the last 6ish hours discussing this with many people, and I&#39;ve pretty much heard everything.

Yes the 38 (plus further overnight fatalities*) are a loss, but they are also (providing it is Al-Qaeda) casualties of war. It sounds harsh but believe me I&#39;m not going for shock, it&#39;s what they are. For these fighters to target innocent civilian people and places (as opposed to military and political targets) is despicable, and I do not condone it one iota.

However, it must be said that we reap what we sow. And while those who have suffered damage from yesterday might be totally opposed to the war on terror and the government, they are none the less British people, and to Al-Qaeda (I&#39;m pretty sure it is them) it is a great blow to the Western world.

I&#39;m also certain that it happened due to G8, which sickens me even more, one of the few chances that the world has to provide massive aid boosts to the third world, and these totalitarian bastards do their utmost to ruin and hamper it.

Also I have to add, the people who carried this out do not deserve the title of Muslim, is Islamic. Violence of this sort (excluding Jihad&#39;s, which really only condones attacks on enemy forces, such as soldiers) is not Islamic in anyway, and as such no matter what you read or hear, do not view these people as acting for the Muslim people. BBC (twats) called them "Islamic terrorist extremists" which royally pissed me off.

Oh and also, media can fuck off, they&#39;ve tried to link it to the anarchists at the G8.

And as for sacrificing your body for your beliefs, I don&#39;t see a problem with that. I actually find it very inspiring that people will make the ultimate sacrifice for their cause, What I have a problem with are the brain-washing bastards who are using the population to fulfil their own agendas. These are the people who must be killed, not those fighting in Iraq (some of the groups fighting are great people) or those forfeiting their lives for their cause. We need to take out the leaders, Al-Zarqawi, Bin Laden, Sharon, Bush.

[Intifada]

This tragic and disgusting attack on ordinary British people, as well as foreigners, must be condemned completely. The people of Britain, however, must realise where the blame lies.

The Anti-War Movement, world over, warned of such consequences if illegal and unjustified invasions of places such as Iraq were to occur in our name. Leaders of the Coalition of the Killing were aware of such repercussions, yet didn&#39;t bat an eyelid. It was not them that were being sent to foriegn nations to fight and - ultimately - die.

We must realise that "fighting terror" in the way in which Bush and Blair have done so far, will not solve the hatred and anger that the Arab/Muslim world (understandably) feels towards the West. If the West chooses to "battle terrorism" in the same ruthless and barbaric manner as the "terrorists" themselves act, the result will only be more bloodshed and tragedy.

It is up to us, the people, to demand an end to such terrible and flawed methods of "fighting terror".

We must demand an end to the occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan and a withdrawal of all foreign troops, now.

[Martin Blank]

Communist League Statement on London Bombings

The Communist League, a working people&#39;s political organization, condemns in the strongest possible terms the slaughter of dozens of our class brothers and sisters in London this morning. The targeting of working people by these terrorist elements exposes their inherent anti-proletarian character, and emphasizes in full relief the reactionary method of these forces, and why communists decisively reject these methods and wage a consistent struggle against them.

At the same time, the League holds the capitalist government of Tony Blair equally responsible for these attacks. Blair&#39;s alliance with the George W. Bush regime and British involvement in the occupation of Iraq have invited these attacks on the working people of London, and represent a case of Westminster&#39;s chickens coming home to roost — just as the attacks of September 11, 2001, represented the same case for Washington&#39;s proverbial fowl.

Our condolences go out to the families of those killed, and to the survivors and their loved ones, and we appeal to them to not allow the government to exploit their grief and fear to advance an agenda of repression and deepening war.

Central Committee
Communist League
July 7, 2005

[Che1990]

So how are people coping with the aftermath? Just watching the news this morning, even the usually cheery weather girls were solemn and almost depressed. I guess you hear about this stuff all the time (Madrid, 9/11 etc.) but you never know what it&#39;s like for the people of the targeted country until it happens to yours. Obviously London didn&#39;t have as many casualties and fatalities as Madrid or 9/11 but that doesn&#39;t make it any less upsetting. I see why Al-Qaeda wanted to attack London but I think they need to learn statements can be made without killing innocents. I fully blame Tony Blair and his alliegance with Bush and the Iraq War and I can honestly say I am disgusted but not at all surprised. These attacks were inevitable and I was wondering when London would be hit. It was only a matter of time.

[Xtreme]

"On the one hand, you have people working to alleviate poverty and rid the world of the pandemic of AIDS and ways to have clean a environment, and on the other hand, you have people working to kill other people," the president said. "The contrast couldn&#39;t be clearer between the intentions and the hearts of those of us who care deeply about human rights and human liberty, and those who kill, those who&#39;ve got such evil in their hearts that they will take the lives of innocent folks. The war on terror goes on."

Bush

This is almost funny in the sickest of ways. Not knowing who said this you could think the person was talking about Bush.

Sorry this had to happen to all the innocent comrades in London.

[Xtreme]

Interesting article
http://www.stratfor.com/news/archive/05070...on-bombings.php (http://www.stratfor.com/news/archive/050707-london-bombings.php)

[No. 355728]

TheKingOfMercy, could you explain why multiculturalism causes what you refer to as "problems", as you adequately put it "I just state pure fact.", where are those facts? If you ask me The Clash of Civilizations, by Huntington, have several examples of complete irrational metonymies.

As for colonialism, the right to government intervention, is not defined by some "natural right", how "free*" it is, or irrational morality. The state is only responsible for its own population within its nation, and will however act aggressively after its social and economic needs, in this case the development of the financial oligarchy, and the dynamics of the market [i.e. crisis in 1873, development of natural monopolies, financial capital (merging of bank and industrial capital)], led to an enormous export of capital.

The correlation between liberalism and Social Darwinism is quite obviously, both politically and philosophically as a justification of the economic and political expansionism. It developed out of the classical liberalism and Darwinism, primarily expressed by the liberalist Herbert Spencer in The Developmental Hypothesis, First Principles and by William Graham Sumner.

I could only refer to this an a-posteriori conclusion, it generalizes, and there are several examples throughout history, the classical imperialism being one.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Using the definition of most libertarians and objectivists, see Hayek on The liberal conception of freedom and Aynd Rands, Virtue of selfishness. Its basically what John Stuart Mill referred to as negative liberty in his book On liberty.

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2005, 03:47 AM
Interesting article
http://www.stratfor.com/news/archive/05070...on-bombings.php (http://www.stratfor.com/news/archive/050707-london-bombings.php)
That is interesting. But nobody really knows that these bombings were ordered by some well-known leader hiding out in Pakistan or somewhere; or if the cells in London were in communication with al-Qaeda members elsewhere. It might even be a newly formed group inspired by the al-Qaeda ideas, methods, and example.

The conclusions could still apply in that case.

[YKTMX]

Message deleted. You&#39;re about to be restricted, so why don&#39;t you take your casual racism to OI or the letters page of the Sun.

Thanks.

[TheKingOfMercy]

Hey hang on, why was that racist ? I expect this on a school website or something PC, but I thought I could talk fact on here ?

If you read it properly you would&#39;ve saw that I was actually proving that in some cases it lead to problems, thats fact, if you really must call it racist, then fine, be that narrow minded, it doesnt change the real world though does it ?

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 11:58 AM
If your personal safety concerns you deeply, remember that Europe is only a couple of hours away by train. Leave the empire behind and its difficulties will no longer concern you.
Eh...not exactly.
On Christmas Eve in 1994, four GIA members hijacked an Air France aircraft in Algiers, killed three hostages and flew to France. They rigged the plane with dynamite and planned to crash into the Eiffel Tower in Paris.
Sound familiar?
More examples from a number of European imperialist countries (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/front/special/cron.html)


When you see what it took to teach the Germans and the Japanese the folly of empire, you realize that Americans and British have not yet paid the initial installment.

If you think terror-bombing taught Germans and Japanese"the folly of empire", you&#39;re caught in the same delusion as al-Qaeda or the U.S. and British governments during WWII: that terrorism works. Usually, it doesn&#39;t. Usually, it produces a backlash of refusing to be terrorized and wanting to strike back, instead. For the simple reason that people ain&#39;t sheep.

See "The Lessons of Terror" by Caleb Carr for a lot of historical examples of this. As Carr shows, usually whoever uses terror first and most, usually ends up losing the war.

Military defeat turned most Germans and Japanese against war and empire...for a time. And it was mostly the Red Army, not the bombing of German cities, which defeated the Third Reich; it was the war in China, together with the sinking of Japanese ships and downing of Japanese planes, which defeated Japan (they were already beaten, and looking for a way to end the war, before Hiroshima and Nagasaki.)

[h&s]

So who exactly do people think did this? Do people think that this was committed by some sort of international network of loosely related al-qaeda cells, like those connected to the Madrid bombings and the foiled ricin attack?
Or, more worryingly as this suggestion is being thrown around by experts, do people think that this could be the work of isolated radicalised Muslims from this country (the UK)?
If the latter is true, Mr Blair&#39;s recent wars have had more of an affect on the radical Islamists than was previously thought....

BTW, I&#39;m sorry for posting wild speculation yesterday (overestimates of the ammount of bombs), but I thought it was true.

[Kitbag]

Whoever did it, they didn&#39;t intend to kill as a main objective. They wanted to bring London to a standstill, if they wanted to kill lots of people they would have gone for a building, they obviously had the time to organise it. I think the emergancy services did brilliantly in the situation, right? My question is this: why bring London to a standstill for a few hours? Could there be a second agenda here?

(I know it sounds a bit far-fetched, I&#39;m just speculating.)

[danny android]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2005, 04:07 PM
Whoever did it, they didn&#39;t intend to kill as a main objective. They wanted to bring London to a standstill, if they wanted to kill lots of people they would have gone for a building, they obviously had the time to organise it. I think the emergancy services did brilliantly in the situation, right? My question is this: why bring London to a standstill for a few hours? Could there be a second agenda here?

(I know it sounds a bit far-fetched, I&#39;m just speculating.)
If it is a local organization doing these things I wouldn&#39;t be at all suprised if the bombings continued.

Ugg I get so pissed when people kill inocent civillians.

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2005, 10:07 AM
My question is this: why bring London to a standstill for a few hours? Could there be a second agenda here?
It maximizes the disruption, the number of people affected, and the attention paid to the attack. Terrorism is all about shock and getting noticed, more than the direct physical effect (which is usually not that large.)

[Morpheus]

Originally posted by h&[email protected] 8 2005, 03:31 PM
So who exactly do people think did this?
There isn&#39;t enough evidence to say who did it. However, based on motives the suspect list should include:

The UK government
The UK working together with other allied gov&#39;ts (the US, maybe Israel, maybe others)
Local Islamic fundamentalists
Foreign Islamic Fundamentalists
Real IRA


My question is this: why bring London to a standstill for a few hours? Could there be a second agenda here?

If it was done by the UK government doing that would help maximize the fear of terrorism, making it easier to use that fear to silence dissent & advance its agenda.

[pastradamus]

The recent bombings were an attack on the london working class,not millionaires,not imperealistic powers but on joe & jane doe making their way to work.

I must say that I think Tony Blair & his stupid labour party did a very poor job of security.Think about it,Theres a G8 summit in gleneagles,scotland & while the police are occupied with beating the living crap outta protesters some nutjob Islamic extremists are bombing London city centre.what I mean is that there was not enough police/security in london because the G8 leaders needed protection elsewhere.

It makes me sick to think that the working class must suffer because of violence caused by the Coalition states.

[kingbee]

i think we have to be realistic here- if there were lots of police around, wouldn&#39;t we say it was disgusting state presence?

i think my view on terrorism has changed completely. going from sceptical that there are even terrorists in britain, to accepting there is a threat, and it&#39;s not one fabricated by the government, or done by the government.

i think what was done was horrific, but as an american reader of the guardian (uk paper) said

"our condolences go out to you, but please don&#39;t act in such a rash way as we did".

and hopefully, we won&#39;t.

[slim]

Terrorism is a term coined by those with illegal power against those who have none and try to fight for their beliefs and rights.

It means nothing. Terrorism in its definition is the use of terror against a legitimate government. What defines a legitimate govt. If people fund terror then they must have support.

The west terrorise the third world but they are not terrorists. Why...

[Martin Blank]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2005, 09:50 AM
Terrorism is a term coined by those with illegal power against those who have none and try to fight for their beliefs and rights.

It means nothing. Terrorism in its definition is the use of terror against a legitimate government. What defines a legitimate govt. If people fund terror then they must have support.

The west terrorise the third world but they are not terrorists. Why...
Terrorism is the method of dispossessed elements from the exploiting classes, not the exploited classes. It is a complete rejection of mass action as a means of bringing about socially progressive change. Moreover, the kind of terrorism we&#39;ve seen recently, aimed at civilians and people who, for all we know, oppose the actions of "their" capitalist governments, exposes the reactionary character of the program motivating these elements. It is completely anathema to a revolutionary perspective and a revolutionary movement.

Miles

[pastradamus]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2005, 01:50 PM
The west terrorise the third world but they are not terrorists. Why...
History is written by Superpowers & those who control. The prolitariet suffer from it comrade.

[h&s]

If people fund terror then they must have support.

So what&#33;?&#33;



My question is this: why bring London to a standstill for a few hours? Could there be a second agenda here?


It maximizes the disruption, the number of people affected, and the attention paid to the attack. Terrorism is all about shock and getting noticed, more than the direct physical effect (which is usually not that large.)
Exactly. The thinking behind the Islamists is that small scale attacks on everyday things are more likely to scare the people and separate them, which they bizarrely think will force the people to their religion.
They saw that the big scale attack on 11/9/01 was perceived as more of an attack as part of a war, not real terror. They want to strike fear into our hearts, and small attacks on transport is seen as the way forward.
Of course, they have no perception of working class solidarity, so they will always fail.

[pastradamus]

Originally posted by h&[email protected] 9 2005, 04:00 PM

Exactly. The thinking behind the Islamists is that small scale attacks on everyday things are more likely to scare the people and separate them, which they bizarrely think will force the people to their religion.
They saw that the big scale attack on 11/9/01 was perceived as more of an attack as part of a war, not real terror. They want to strike fear into our hearts, and small attacks on transport is seen as the way forward.
Of course, they have no perception of working class solidarity, so they will always fail.
When you Prove to me that this Islamic militants bomb didn&#39;t cause terror I will eat my fucking hat. The Idea behing it is that it destroys support for the war in Iraq.

[pandora]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 09:04 PM
Don&#39;t know if this has been said yet, but I&#39;ll say it anyway (Too lazy to read the whole thread, pressed for time).

This will more than likely close the doors on the endcapitalism//povertynow causes, and is going to turn everyones eyes back to the war on terror, except, probably, Canada and Japan. Perfect fucking timing.
which is why i believe the attack was a result of british and us intelligence to change the dialogue away from poverty where it was for the first time in many eons.

the timing of the attacks right after the g8 concerts and new anti-neoliberal (colonial) statements of the zapatista makes me suspicious.

i would think the islamic fundamentalists would pick a different time, such as when a iraqi city was being attacked and not a time when england was contemplating peace.

however it could be in reaction to tony blairs control of the eu for us interests.

anyway its fucked. it sucks that morons use innocent people like me and you to make their political points on both sides. they both suck. real revolutionaries want peace and do not kill innocent people on their way to work. this is crap.

[pandora]

Originally posted by silentprotest+Jul 7 2005, 02:01 PM--> (silentprotest @ Jul 7 2005, 02:01 PM)
Originally posted by Additives [email protected] 7 2005, 10:25 AM

[email protected] 7 2005, 10:23 AM
we do need ID cards though,
Read 1984
i can understand your apprehension, but assuming the information the government collects for the ID cards is not mis-used they are a fundimentally good idea [/b]
no they are not. there is enough id
after the attacks at the massacre of actuel the government never went after the perpetrators and instead ordered id cards mandatory to crush the mayans.

the difference in chiapas is that the poor who resist are one color and creed so racism is just that it is more subtle there.

regardless this is a horrible thing. but whoever perpetrated it is no doubt a wealthy organization, maybe cia, maybe al queda but id cards does nothing in such as situation, it only harms innocents further by limiting their rights.

[rikaguilera]

I was curious as to what the "mood" of the post would be here after what happened in England. I see many sides to this incident, and the reality of being faced with "real" actions being taken, and or just talking about them. I was first taken back and stunned when hearing of what had happened. Normal response,.. Then began to think about the actions and who could have carried them out, and/or why. Nobody is trying to convert people to the Islamic faith. That is just blind. There are many more that have died or been injured with the invasion of Iraq. Many have died at the hands of "capitalism", in the middle East, just for the sake of oil rights.. Yes, it is terrible that people have been hurt and killed in England with these explosions. Do I agree with the people who have carried them out? No, they do not share "all" of the belifs that I do. I can understand their point though. I do not condone acts of terror, but through fear they may get their way. England had millions of protesters against the war. It is an area that really does not "go the way of their govt.". So why not make a statement there? Look what happened in Spain, and the resulting election that saw Spain leaving its presence in Iraq. Not continuing the support of the illegal invasion of Iraq.
The govt. of the U.S., and England don&#39;t care about the people. They don&#39;t care about the families of those that have died, or that will die everyday in the middle east, Africa, etc.. So why not make the people angry enough to turn against its own govt.? I may not agree with how they go about it, but I "think" I can see what they are trying to do.
If I offended anybody with my take on the matter, sorry. I just try and look at what and why people are doing what they are doing. Do I want a revolt to happen in the U.S. and Europe against the current fascist govt.? Yes,.. Would such a change mean that many would be injured in the process? Probably. So that is why I can&#39;t just de-nounce the methods and actions of a people who are trying to evoke change in the world. I may not feel it is the path I would take, but then again, my cause (if it called for it) might lead me in that direction as well. Just how I feel..
Would I blow up the building that housed the army that was taking the land and lives of people in Mexico, just for money sake? Yes I would. So I guess in some people&#39;s book, I would be a terrorist.
So be it..

[bolshevik butcher]

ID cards are a bad diea. Htey&#39;re just about restricting freedoms, especially when they want a huge national database to come with them.

[h&s]

When you Prove to me that this Islamic militants bomb didn&#39;t cause terror I will eat my hat. The Idea behing it is that it destroys support for the war in Iraq.
Pardon?
I didn&#39;t say that it didn&#39;t cause terror. I said that this type of bomb causes more terror than 9/11 style attacks.
The idea isn&#39;t just to destroy support support for the war. The ideology of Bin Laden and his followers is known to be that of converting the Western &#39;Infidels&#39; to his form of Islam through terror.

[pastradamus]

Bin Laden is not a cleric & As much as I hate the guy I dont believe his goal is just destruction.

Do you seriously believe that bin laden is attacking the west for the sake of it?

[bolshevik butcher]

Binladen is in reality a figure head. Al quieda isn&#39;t one giant organiation, is lots of smaller loosley connected networks, overwhich bin laden has no real power.

[Saint-Just]

Quoting Severian

Terrorism is all about shock and getting noticed, more than the direct physical effect (which is usually not that large.)

The &#39;direct physical effect&#39; of terrorism has an incredibly destructive for a few people and has a much lesser effect on a much greater number of other people outside of the &#39;direct physical effect&#39;.

Quoting Silent Protest


we do need ID cards though,


Read 1984

1984 depicts a fantasy society. There are many more ideas that would need to shape human advancement to create a society like 1984 than simply the concept of ID cards.

[farleft]

War hits British shores

The Lies Behind the London Attacks
By Matt Hanley


“…When they (the terrorists) seek to change our country, our way of life by these methods, we will not be changed.” There you go, then. After the murder of over 50 Londoners by Islamic extremists, those were Prime Minister Tony Blair’s first official words to a shocked nation. We will not let the terrorists change our way of life, Blair was saying. His rather hyperbolic statement continues the typical Bush rhetoric that the terrorists carry out these murderous attacks because they “hate democracy, hate freedom, and hate our way of life”.



But look behind the premise. Dig a bit deeper. Surely, what we are seeing are the leaders of the US and UK hiding behind the propaganda that has and will continue to spiel from their offices; that terrorists are murdering people in the west because they hate our free, democratic, Christian liberal societies. Therefore, our leaders must step up our War on Terror abroad and at home. Abroad by pursuing terrorist cells throughout the world to bring to justice, and at home by rushing through Parliament ‘anti-terror’ legislation to keep our society safer, and all the injustice that goes with it.

Full Story:
The International Weekly (http://www.internationalweekly.tk)

[h&s]

Do you seriously believe that bin laden is attacking the west for the sake of it?
No. Did I ever say that?


Binladen is in reality a figure head. Al quieda isn&#39;t one giant organiation, is lots of smaller loosley connected networks, overwhich bin laden has no real power.
And wouldn&#39;t it make our lives so much easier if everyone knew that? :)

[Free Palestine]

If I may be so bold.. before you condemn the "terrorists" please consider the fact that not one shred of evidence has emerged that connects Islamic terrorists to the slaughter other than a phone call and a website posting that could have been anybody. The knees of the media have jerked and the public has jerked along with them.

[MiniOswald]

Sorry free palestine but even at a guess its extremely likely to be islamic fundamentalists. Anyways i think the old, youve sown the wind now reap the whirlwind quote can be thrown into this situation, it happened to spain and now us, we bomb them, they bomb us. The answer would be, stop interfering in middle eastern countries, but the english arent the sharpest tools in the shed, we never have been, this will only lead to firebombing mosques in the UK and strengthening the need to fight these terrorists.

And really who cares if you change your way of life, i dont particularly think whoever did this, gives a shit if you no longer get the train to work.

[viva le revolution]

It&#39;s that shameless nationalism shit that only makes things worse, instead of contmplating on the causes, they contemplate it on nationalist grounds, what&#39;s surprising is that even in Britain, a more secular country than America, this shit still attracts listeners

[h&s]

Originally posted by Free [email protected] 12 2005, 08:58 PM
If I may be so bold.. before you condemn the "terrorists" please consider the fact that not one shred of evidence has emerged that connects Islamic terrorists to the slaughter other than a phone call and a website posting that could have been anybody. The knees of the media have jerked and the public has jerked along with them.
So who else could it have been?
The attack that had all the hallmarks of an al-Qaeda style attack, andwas completely out of key with what the IRA used to do.
People are just stating facts.


It&#39;s that shameless nationalism shit that only makes things worse, instead of contmplating on the causes, they contemplate it on nationalist grounds, what&#39;s surprising is that even in Britain, a more secular country than America, this shit still attracts listeners
I am actually surprised that the reaction has not been half as nationalist as I expected. I expected open racism, but I haven&#39;t heard much of it.

[MiniOswald]

Originally posted by h&[email protected] 13 2005, 01:12 PM

I am actually surprised that the reaction has not been half as nationalist as I expected. I expected open racism, but I haven&#39;t heard much of it.
Mosque got firebombed near me, not sure where i just saw it on the front of the wirral globe today.

[Entrails Konfetti]

I kindve find it hard to believe that the US and UK governments are directly behind these attacks. They may have exasterbated the attacks with their Colonialisation in the Middle East. I have yet to see a direct link from the Governments to these attacks.

I have heard about these extremist sects of the Islamic faith,that they kill infidels in order to save their souls and also by these attacks, they have the intention of scaring infidels into coverting to Islam. However,how come these attacks only started not too long ago ? If they were looking for converts wouldn&#39;t these attacks have been occuring longer ago ?

Someone said,that security in London was down due to the G8 in Scotland,what difference would it have made if security conditions were stronger otherwize,the attackers obviously weren&#39;t camera shy.