how can any cause and humanity co-exist

[crappitydoodah]

One says direct action, one says political action, one says this cause or that cause....to die/live/kill/be killed for a cause....

if a cause is based off of someones theory to better help humanity, to relieve suffering or oppression, or to even force oppresion (for even they have causes)....

yet then this cause begins to rule over humanity...as in one is then forced to be willing to lay down there life if they choose to fight for this cause...therefor laying down a foundation for a new form of oppression...yet even more dangerous, since this form of oppression makes a man believe he chooses it in a name of progress or in the name of what is good...

a cause can only become oppresion...so sad for something that started from the depths of ones soul...

[LSD]

yet then this cause begins to rule over humanity...

An idea can't "rule" over anyone. Only people can do so, albeit often in the name of "causes".

This is by no means a "rule", however. Causes don't "have" to lead to tyranny -- not unless unless they're tyrnnical causes.

Clearly the key is to support causes which are founded on freedom and equality and which can not be used as justification for oppression.


as in one is then forced to be willing to lay down there life if they choose to fight for this cause...

One isn't "forced".

If one is "willing to lay down there life" (sic), then they, by definition, did so voluntarily.


therefor laying down a foundation for a new form of oppression...yet even more dangerous, since this form of oppression makes a man believe he chooses it in a name of progress or in the name of what is good...

I think you're somehwat confused on the meaning of "oppression".

If a poltiical or economic system works, people are not oppressed becasue they believe that that political or economic system works!

Now, they may indeed be oppressed by that system, as in the case with capitalism, but they are not oppressed by the idea, but rather by its execution.

In the case of a genuinely egalitarain system, such as communism, they're not oppressed at all!

[monkeydust]

I think the main point here seems to revolve around the issue of placing some "higher" cause above individual and pragmatic needs. Its the prominence of ends over means.

For instance, this...


Clearly the key is to support causes which are founded on freedom and equality and which can not be used as justification for oppression.

...seems to be valid.

But the problem arises when one places such great emphasis on the long-term objective of freedom and equality that by doing so one ignores current problems, perhaps going so far as to justify very much "bad" actions in the name of something desirable. An extreme example of this would be the collectivization of agriculture in the USSR. In many ways the sought end was good, but because such great emphasis was placed on it the millions suffering and dying were not heeded.

The only solution, from my point of view, is to always keep an eye on the present, and to never forget that good causes can lead to bad events. A degree of pragmatism is required and practicality is therefore necessary to retain a balanced outlook.

[crappitydoodah]

Originally posted by Lysergic Acid [email protected] 6 2005, 01:39 PM
An idea can't "rule" over anyone. Only people can do so, albeit often in the name of "causes".
An Idea cannot rule over anyone....what????
do you not understand the power of a simple idea...wether it is for power and control or away from it...a person must desire this control, of be in fear of something else driving towards this control...making him grab it and execute him in anyway....you say the only oppression is a person under rule/power that abuses it and therefore him...

give credit to humanities weakness...ideas are the main form of oppression....gov't are based off of ideas, corruption is based off of ideas (selfishness and whatnot)....even when people sit back and allow oppression is based off some philosophy or fear that they have....ideas begin to overrule an individuals actions...look at the right wingers....how there insane ideas turns into action simply because they are trying in there mind to do what is right!!!

we are all slaves to something....but as so many insist we might as well make it slavery to freedom right?? cause if we weren't a slave to freedom we would allow anything...get it...anything....like oppression!!! (your gonna think I am mad for this)....but think about it!!! in order to gain freedom you must take away power from another....take away there freedom to do as they choose....because some men and women do choose to oppress....so for my fredoom I take away theres....

I fight for an idea....I'm a slave to this idea....this idea leads me into oppression for I will not call upon my freedom to bring into oppression a group of people or an individual....My choice has it's limits since I allow another...yet the question then comes how long will we allow another....bringing forth a form of oppresion on him, even in the name of good!!!

[LSD]

do you not understand the power of a simple idea...wether it is for power and control or away from it.

I entirely agree, ideas are indeed powerful. But they can not "rule". Only a person(s) can rule, granted often in the name of ideas, but a person nonetheless.

Ideas can be effective tools of gaining and even maintaining power, but they are not power in and of themself and they are not animate! :lol:

"Ruling", as a verb, demands positive action. It demands making decisions, controlling. These are things which inanimate concepts (like "ideas") cannot do.

People do.


ideas are the main form of oppression

No.

Ideas are used as justification for oppression, they are often used as tools of oppression, but they are not in and of themselves oppression.

Ideas concieved do nothing. Ideas enacted can do a great deal.

But again, whether the actions done in the name of this idea are oppressive or not depends on both the person performing the action and the nature of the idea.

Any idea can claimed as justification for practically any action. But if the idea is one that implicitly rejects oppression, it is very hard to convince people that oppressive acts are really in line with that idea.

Again, some ideas are oppressive by nature, some are not.


gov't are based off of ideas, corruption is based off of ideas (selfishness and whatnot)

I think you're confused on what "idea" means.

In the context of this discussion, "idea" refers to "causes", correct?

That is, political ideologies.

Selfishness and other human emtions / attributes do not qualify as such.


but think about it!!! in order to gain freedom you must take away power from another....take away there freedom to do as they choose.

True, "absolute" freedom is an impossibility.

But this is irrelevent to this discussion.

Slavery doesn't mean not being able to do everything you want, it means obeying everything your master says.

A lack of absolute freedom is not comparable with slavery, it's simply a fact of life.


I fight for an idea....I'm a slave to this idea....

Why?

The nature of being a slave is that you have no choice, you are, literally, enslaved.

But with ideas, you are free to change them any time you wish. There is no coercive force stopping you from discarding long-held beliefs or adopting new ones.

Sure, you are limited by your education, knowledge, and experience, and I suppose you could make the case that if someone is so indoctrinated and kept from the world that he knows only one set of ideas, that he does not truly have a choice.

But in those situations, he has not been enslaved by this idea, he has been enslaved by those who have kept him isolated. And all he needs is a good book ...and he's free.

And that situation hardly describes most people. Most people are aware of the existance of opposing viewpoints. They are often unwilling and resitant to change, but that's a far cry from enslavement.

In the end, ideas are voluntary!

[chaval]

i agree with lysergic acid

slavery isnt something you choose. someone must force it upon you. you can easily turn away from your idead and causes. also causes are extremeley important to humanity and believing taht they will only lead to opression means that we should all just sit around and do absolutely nothing. if i decide that my cause in life is to help the dying on the streets does taht mean im opressing those taht are dying by saving them? soes that mean im opressing myself?!?

and unless you are in a position of control you can't drag anyone else down with you and how many of us are in that kind of position? very few people in this world are.

as for the whole total freedom thing - everyone needs borders and boundaries. when your actions begin to infringe and hurt the freedom of others in a negative way then you dont really deserve freedom since it becomes obvoius you dont know how to use it