EZLN?

[Organic Revolution]

any body know whats happening down there with them?

[farleft]

Unfortunately it looks like an end to being revolutionaries and they will become reformists.

[farleft]

Mexico hails rebel 'initiative'

Subcomandante Marcos has hinted at change
The Mexican authorities have welcomed the Zapatista rebels' apparent plan to renounce their armed struggle and take up political action.
President Vicente Fox's spokesman said there would be no legal hurdles for the rebels to join the mainstream politics.

The rebels on Monday issued a statement pledging to announce "a new political initiative" in the coming days.

The Zapatista campaign for more indigenous rights has been largely peaceful for more than 10 years.

The rebel group took up arms against the Mexican state in the south-eastern state of Chiapas - Mexico's poorest state - in January 1994, when at least 150 people died in clashes.

'Red alert'

Presidential spokesman Ruben Aguilar told reporters that the rebel statement apparently aimed at joining the political life was good for the nation.

"We celebrate [it]," Mr Aguilar said.

"In no way will there be any legal impediment to the Zapatistas joining the political life of the country, through whatever organisation they decide to construct."

The spokesman added that the rebel move "opens the possibility for dialogue as an instrument to reach agreements".

The Zapatistas statement was issued from their Chiapas strongholds and signed by their military leader Subcomandante Marcos.

"With the approval and support of the broad majority of its members, the EZLN [Zapatista National Liberation Army] will undertake a new national and international political initiative," it said.

It followed another statement which last week put communities controlled by the rebels on a "red alert" while EZLN members gathered to discuss their future.

[Jesus Christ!]

I alwyas supported them but the move to become reformists doesn't suprise me. Their goal was never really to over throw the government and place in another one they just wanted more rights and respect for the indigenous population. They were kinda like armed reformists if you will.

[pandora]

Have any of you read the new decree! It is a socialist anti-Neo Liberalism doctrine which spends pages speaking about not being able to trust or work with the government. Please read the document first yourselves before calling it reformist.

To my knowledge it is the first public doctrine they have formally written this far left. In fact to my understanding when I left they were encouraging people not to vote in the next election. If they changed that statement it is because in Chiapas if you do not vote your vote automatically goes to the ruling majority. If they start another party it will be only to show that base of support.

Also none of your statements showed one ounce of the courage these people go through day in and out demonstrating in public while police explode firecrackers around them to scare them, or examine the violence that is CARRYING ON NOW in Chenalho and the Zapatistas need to move carefully to protect the Maya.

I ask you to imagine the image of Mayan women standing up against men in full regalia with shotguns and automatic weapons when you accuse the Zapatista of not standing up straight enough. They are standing much straighter than any of us!

[Paradox]

^ Yeah! What Pandora said. READ THE SIXTH DECLARATION OF SELVA LACANDONA!!!

Nice reply, Pandora. Thanks. ;)

[novemba]

Reform? Fuck.

another revolution betrayed.

I really hope they don't do this.

[violencia.Proletariat]

where the hell are you getting this information that they are turning into reformists, i think you need to re read some of the communiques

they were rearrangeing the leadership situation as so if they were to be attacked they cant still function

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 01:44 PM
Have any of you read the new decree! It is a socialist anti-Neo Liberalism doctrine which spends pages speaking about not being able to trust or work with the government. Please read the document first yourselves before calling it reformist.


is it on the ezln website?

[Guest_Indigo]

It's on the EZLN site and this is the English translation.

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2005/07/320726.shtml

Part VI - "What We Are Going To Do" explains their plan.

[coda]

sorry. It's part V - "What We Want to Do" and
Part VI - "How We Are Going to Do it"

[pogue_mahone]

The zapatistas have always had a political wing - the FZLN: http://www.fzln.org.mx/

[bolshevik butcher]

I don't see waht's so reformist about it.

[anomaly]

I wouldn't call this move 'reformist' (as can be seen from this quote: "we are going to go about building, along with those people who, like us, are humble and simple, a national program of struggle, but a program which will be clearly of the left, or anti-capitalist, or anti-neoliberal, or for justice, democracy and liberty for the Mexican people."). Rather, I think this is an attempt by the zapatistas to build there struggle into a national, and declare their support for revolutionary movements abroad.

I do, however, doubt that Marcos would not lend his support to those groups who do take up arms. I think the zapatistas collectively will support any and all resistance abroad, so be not alarmed, militants.

This bit about not taking up arms is probably specifically for the Mexican situation. The zapatistas are too small and too poorly armed to engage in armed struggle in all of Mexico. Rather, the best way to change the country is probably what the zapatistas plan to do: travel their patria, and listen to what the people have to say, and, based on their wants and needs, build an anti-capitalist coalition to tear down the old Mexican government, and build what they call a 'new' politics.

[Anarcho-Communist]

Hasta La Victoria Zapatistas! :lol:

[Malone]

Hasta La Victoria Zapatistas!

Chill out, Zach de la Rocha.

[Anarcho-Communist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2005, 09:14 PM

Hasta La Victoria Zapatistas!

Chill out, Zach de la Rocha.
Rage Against The Machine are good! do you like Zach de la Rocha?

[Malone]

God damn, you are fucking hilarious.

[pandora]

New Slogans Zapatista Translated with help, reform my ass:

Thanks we translated it more throughly, but not perfectly for original look under Espanol corner:

1.We are one, neither we are one hundred, who watches the government accounts or stories.

2. It advanced, to be put back, to the sides, here we do not have occurances (heated.)

3. This meeting is not of celebration it is a fight and a protest.

4. Town, pueblo we hear you, we are in your fight (will protect you.)

5. Marcos, friend. this pueblo is with you.

6. Aid, aid, do not rob the money, I already saw, and I see, the president is of the PRI.

7 The bent Town was exploded (by the PRI?)

8 And I saw, Already I saw, those that receive clean money or do racial cleansing are of pri.

9 The bent pueblo was exploded/attacked (possibly by pri.)

10 Marcos, hold, the town rises.

11 If Zapata had lived, work/slave drivers would have not.

12 The renigades of the parties are batallions controlled by the slave driver bosses.

13 30´s go 60´s come and the cruel acting town, by the deception of the bells (your voice.)

14 Lobato, this pueblo we reclaim, which promises (freedom in its voice) in its bells.

15 The regidores (rulers) of the parties, will be overthrown.

16 To fight, to fight, everybody is going to fight, we go all, to construct together the popular power.

17 They thought that we were already exhausted? No, we fight, we fight and this fight, you can not stop our fight and struggle, to construct the popular power.

18 Professionals, professors, students, housewives, and retailers, working, bricklayer, and farmer, we go all to the civil resistance.

19 The blood of the fallen ones (from massacres) you would see take revenge, That took revenge? The organized Town or pueblo.

20. The better future is seen and the town feels this presence.

[pandora]

Originally posted by Anarcho-[email protected] 10 2005, 12:31 PM
Hasta La Victoria Zapatistas! :lol:
Hasta La Victoria Siempre!
Zapatista!

I suppose you should see from these slogans and the statements under News above that the Zapatista are a people of their word leading all the world to the light, and those who childishly rebuke their stuggle should be put to shame.

[redstar2000]

I must confess that I'm disappointed that EZLN did not begin an armed uprising against the Mexican government.

But, it's "their call", not mine.

Otherwise, I think it's best to "wait and see" what they do and how they do it before pasting the "reformist" label on them.

The EZLN is rather unusual as political currents go...and I think their future is quite unpredictable at the present time.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[anomaly]

But redstar, would such a move be effective and successful? Certainly the Zapatistas could gain enough popular support to win an armed revolution, but, quite simply, the zapatistas do not have the arms to attempt such a daring move. Where will they get their weapons from? Also, considering this and the capacity of the Mexican army to fight, and fight well, I think Marcos made the right decision here. Hell, if Marcos does get enough popular support, maybe he will simply march, with his supporters, to Mexico City, and take over the government popularly and peacefully, who knows?

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by anomaly
But redstar, would such a move be effective and successful?

No one knows, of course.

We have to assume that the people in EZLN considered the option and rejected it for the time being...for reasons that were clear to them, if not to us.

Those reasons might well be very good ones.

I'm just disappointed, that's all. :(

A "second Cuba" on the U.S. border would be a tremendous blow to the American Empire.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Organic Revolution]

but that is what america needs... another country, a larger country to be right on there heels.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2005, 01:58 AM
But redstar, would such a move be effective and successful? Certainly the Zapatistas could gain enough popular support to win an armed revolution, but, quite simply, the zapatistas do not have the arms to attempt such a daring move. Where will they get their weapons from? Also, considering this and the capacity of the Mexican army to fight, and fight well, I think Marcos made the right decision here. Hell, if Marcos does get enough popular support, maybe he will simply march, with his supporters, to Mexico City, and take over the government popularly and peacefully, who knows?
they would get their weapons and ammo from the mexican army, which is why it might not be so succesful at the moment to go on the offensive.

[Black Dagger]

We have to assume that the people in EZLN considered the option and rejected it for the time being...for reasons that were clear to them, if not to us.

I think the reasons are very clear, anomaly has already stated. The EZLN does not have the military capacity to mount an effective (that is to say successful) sustained assault on the mexican-state. The state-army (not to mention the militias of mexico's rural elite), greatly out-number the EZLN guerrillas at present, and are also infinitely better equipped and resourced. Only with a broader revolutionary movement could the EZLN ever hope to topple Fox's government, and at the moment this support just does not exist. Thus any attempts to 'force' this change would be authoritarian, illegitimate, and almost certain to fail.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Black Dagger
Thus any attempts to 'force' this change would be authoritarian, illegitimate, and almost certain to fail.

Yes, insurrection is "authoritarian". That's not the kind of "authoritarianism" that bothers me...though it may indeed be a problem for the EZLN.

In no way would it be "illegitimate" -- any uprising by the peasants and workers of Mexico would be as legitimate and justified as in any place on the planet.

"Almost certain to fail"? Well, that's the "great unknown", isn't it? Most insurrections fail...and once in a while, one doesn't fail.

And we really don't know why...that's the overall weakest part of revolutionary theory.

But, most likely, EZLN does think the time is not "ripe" for insurrection...and, as I noted, that's "their call" to make.

Just as it's my call to make on the question of whether or not any kind of substantial change for the better is possible in the absence of armed insurrection.

My call? It's not.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[novemba]

Originally posted by nate+Jul 12 2005, 02:26 AM--> (nate @ Jul 12 2005, 02:26 AM)
Originally posted by anomaly+Jul 11 2005, 01:58 AM--> (anomaly @ Jul 11 2005, 01:58 AM)but, quite simply, the zapatistas do not have the arms to attempt such a daring move. Where will they get their weapons from? [/b]
they would get their weapons and ammo from the mexican army, which is why it might not be so succesful at the moment to go on the offensive. [/b]
...


Che Guevara - Guerrilla [email protected]
All this must be ajdusted to the armament that the enemy uses, since the ammunition he employs is what we are going to use when his arms fall into our hands.


Che Guevara - Guerrilla Warfare
The arms of the enemy, his ammunition, his habits must be considered; because the principal source of a provision for the guerrilla force is precisely in enemy armaments. If there is a possibility of choice we should prefer the same type as used by the enemy because the greatest problem of the guerrilla band is the lack if ammunition, which the opponent must provide.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by necro_oner+Jul 13 2005, 03:52 PM--> (necro_oner @ Jul 13 2005, 03:52 PM)
Originally posted by nate+Jul 12 2005, 02:26 AM--> (nate @ Jul 12 2005, 02:26 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2005, 01:58 AM
but, quite simply, the zapatistas do not have the arms to attempt such a daring move. Where will they get their weapons from?
they would get their weapons and ammo from the mexican army, which is why it might not be so succesful at the moment to go on the offensive. [/b]
...


Che Guevara - Guerrilla [email protected]
All this must be ajdusted to the armament that the enemy uses, since the ammunition he employs is what we are going to use when his arms fall into our hands.


Che Guevara - Guerrilla Warfare
The arms of the enemy, his ammunition, his habits must be considered; because the principal source of a provision for the guerrilla force is precisely in enemy armaments. If there is a possibility of choice we should prefer the same type as used by the enemy because the greatest problem of the guerrilla band is the lack if ammunition, which the opponent must provide. [/b]
ive read part of his book, idk if im wrong about this but i thought che using guerilla warfare, as in bolivia, is ment to inspire a bigger revolution. if the ezln tried to defeat the mexican army in a sweep over the country, that would be difficult since they would be leaving their territory. the only way it seems like it would work to me is if they werent the only ones fighting the mexican army, there would have to be other resistance in other parts of the country.

[novemba]

I concur.

What ever happened to international revolution simultainisouly conducted?

[Black Dagger]

Yes, insurrection is "authoritarian". That's not the kind of "authoritarianism" that bothers me...though it may indeed be a problem for the EZLN.

You've misinterpreted what i meant by 'authoritarian'. It is linked to the words that followed, 'illegitimate' specifically. An EZLN insurrection tomorrow would be authoritarian because they do not] have enough support outside of Chiapas, not of peasants or workers. Thus their potential for success is close to zero, their action would be an attempt at 'propaganda by the deed'- a historically bankrupt tactic. And you ignored my other point, not only do they lack human power, but military power. If they attempted a serious assault on the mexican state they would be slaughtered.



In no way would it be "illegitimate" -- any uprising by the peasants and workers of Mexico would be as legitimate and justified as in any place on the planet.

Your 'faith' in the widespread appeal of the EZLN is misplaced, they do not have anywhere near enough support from the nations peasantry or workers to legitimately initiate a class war on their behalf. The support of the workers seems limited to solidarity strikes, and much of the peasantry remains reactionary, under the control of reactionaries- or otherwise paralysed for fear of military reprisal.

[viva le revolution]

If the EZLN can hold the Mexican army off Chiapas, they might get more upport in wider Mexico. Messages of solidarity must come from Cuba and Venezuela. However it is going to take time due to the EZLN operating for so long as an indigenous organization.

[ellipsis]

I think that their main objectives at the moment are sustaining and improving their six autonomous communities in order to better the lives of indigenous chiapans. They also do a lot of international work, building solidarity, educating non-mexicans, etc. I am kind of out of touch with the movement as of late.

[Q]

Closed, don't necro.