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enigma2517
5th July 2005, 21:07
What is a Leninist point of view on direct action?

JC1
5th July 2005, 22:10
We suppourt all reform struggle as long as it is used to connect imidiate goals with those of socialism.

Hatred
5th July 2005, 23:55
Actually, Leninist Parties usually devore all forms of struggle that are not linked to the Party. Therefore, everything related to direct action is related with The Party.

Anarchist Freedom
6th July 2005, 00:29
Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2005, 06:55 PM
Actually, Leninist Parties usually devore all forms of struggle that are not linked to the Party. Therefore, everything related to direct action is related with The Party.
Indeed.

Organic Revolution
6th July 2005, 05:01
Originally posted by Anarchist Freedom+Jul 5 2005, 05:29 PM--> (Anarchist Freedom @ Jul 5 2005, 05:29 PM)
[email protected] 5 2005, 06:55 PM
Actually, Leninist Parties usually devore all forms of struggle that are not linked to the Party. Therefore, everything related to direct action is related with The Party.
Indeed. [/b]
worst one line post i have ever seen, zach.

Anarchist Freedom
6th July 2005, 06:46
well It was the truth man.

Leninism tow the party line alot and are very dedicated to the Party to which they are involved with.

More Fire for the People
6th July 2005, 16:55
Devotion to a party is not really bad, but perpetual devotion to a party during its mistakes without criticism is the achilles heel of Leninism.

JC1
6th July 2005, 18:03
Actually, Leninist Parties usually devore all forms of struggle that are not linked to the Party.

Yes. The Leninists try to to involve themselves in all fronts of struggle. Lenin once said something like communists must empthasize with all oppressed from all social strata. And uniting the working class around the program of socialism is of course nessecary, and sometimes this requires reform work.

Organic Revolution
6th July 2005, 19:35
fuck the party line. confining yourself to a party is like being in the army. they control what you do at all times.

JC1
6th July 2005, 19:47
fuck the party line. confining yourself to a party is like being in the army. they control what you do at all times.

*Tries to Contain Lafter* You would know , eh? cuz you have been in so many armies and leninist orginizations ? I would say that there is more internal disipline in a anarchist affinity group., becuase most leninist orginization dont delve into personal matters like lifestyle.

Hatred
6th July 2005, 20:49
Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 05:03 PM

Actually, Leninist Parties usually devore all forms of struggle that are not linked to the Party.

Yes. The Leninists try to to involve themselves in all fronts of struggle. Lenin once said something like communists must empthasize with all oppressed from all social strata. And uniting the working class around the program of socialism is of course nessecary, and sometimes this requires reform work.
Yes, Leninists try to "involve" themselves in all fronts, but why? There is only one reason.
To control it.
There cannot be any independence of struggle, under a Leninist regime. All struggles must be for "real socialism" or else they are useless. And those who are useful, must be controlled by a party member.

Clarksist
6th July 2005, 23:09
Devotion to a party is not really bad, but perpetual devotion to a party during its mistakes without criticism is the achilles heel of Leninism.


Not only that, but the idolatry, centralized dictatorships, and the submission to the chairman of the party.

More Fire for the People
7th July 2005, 05:20
Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 04:09 PM

Devotion to a party is not really bad, but perpetual devotion to a party during its mistakes without criticism is the achilles heel of Leninism.


Not only that, but the idolatry, centralized dictatorships, and the submission to the chairman of the party.
Which would be counter-Leninist, or atleast in theory.

Black Dagger
7th July 2005, 10:54
Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 04:47 AM
*Tries to Contain Lafter* You would know , eh?
Please excuse this completely off-topic post, but ive been wondering this for a while now...

Is english your first language? If so, how old are you? Because your spelling is bloody awful. If english is not your first language, i apologise.

More Fire for the People
7th July 2005, 15:32
Originally posted by Black Dagger+Jul 7 2005, 03:54 AM--> (Black Dagger @ Jul 7 2005, 03:54 AM)
[email protected] 7 2005, 04:47 AM
*Tries to Contain Lafter* You would know , eh?
Please excuse this completely off-topic post, but ive been wondering this for a while now...

Is english your first language? If so, how old are you? Because your spelling is bloody awful. If english is not your first language, i apologise. [/b]
His first language is obviously Canadian as he ended the sentence in "eh?"

bombeverything
14th July 2005, 02:09
I would say that there is more internal disipline in a anarchist affinity group., becuase most leninist orginization dont delve into personal matters like lifestyle.

Sorry? Lifestyle? Please elaborate.

JC1
14th July 2005, 02:32
Sorry? Lifestyle? Please elaborate.

Anarchist groups make there members do things like keep Eco-Koshrut .. err ... vegiatarian.

JC1
14th July 2005, 02:41
Is english your first language? If so, how old are you? Because your spelling is bloody awful. If english is not your first language, i apologise.

PIG Question!


There cannot be any independence of struggle, under a Leninist regime. All struggles must be for "real socialism" or else they are useless. And those who are useful, must be controlled by a party member.

Uh-huh. Havent heard this one before. Leninists dont try and "Control" struggles, they jus' connect em' with socialism.

bombeverything
14th July 2005, 04:41
Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2005, 08:07 PM
Anarchist groups make there members do things like keep Eco-Koshrut .. err ... vegiatarian.

That is untrue and you know it.

Anarchist Freedom
14th July 2005, 08:18
No its not lifestylism is one of the biggest problems facing our movment from inside.

Organic Revolution
14th July 2005, 08:39
Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2005, 07:32 PM

Sorry? Lifestyle? Please elaborate.

Anarchist groups make there members do things like keep Eco-Koshrut .. err ... vegiatarian.
hahaha.. do you even believe that is true?

Anarchist Freedom
14th July 2005, 08:42
Lifestylism is and you know it.

enigma2517
14th July 2005, 16:29
Thats true. Alot of the people who go to punk rock concerts or become vegans or ride their bike everywhere consider themselves anarchists. They believe that simplying "becoming the change you want to see in the world" will do the trick while actually a deep look into class analysis and struggle is in order. It's a shame.

El-Bortukali
14th July 2005, 19:03
Originally posted by Hatred+Jul 6 2005, 07:49 PM--> (Hatred @ Jul 6 2005, 07:49 PM)
[email protected] 6 2005, 05:03 PM

Actually, Leninist Parties usually devore all forms of struggle that are not linked to the Party.

Yes. The Leninists try to to involve themselves in all fronts of struggle. Lenin once said something like communists must empthasize with all oppressed from all social strata. And uniting the working class around the program of socialism is of course nessecary, and sometimes this requires reform work.
Yes, Leninists try to "involve" themselves in all fronts, but why? There is only one reason.
To control it.
There cannot be any independence of struggle, under a Leninist regime. All struggles must be for "real socialism" or else they are useless. And those who are useful, must be controlled by a party member. [/b]
Well, first of all let me start to state that not all leninist movements support direct actions (taking in consideration that by direct action you mean the use of force or violence)
I, for starters cannot state what is the point of view of other leninst movements in the world about direct action, since i only know the Portuguese Comunist Party ideology.
See the diference between our movement and some others is that, for starters we do not see "direct" violent struggle as the way in our current situation. Instead of that we see the struggle in more peaceful ways such as protestsm strikes and numerous iniciatives of debates amongst the population as the way, and also the adoption of more equal and revolutionary policies in our country.

Hatred stated that the only reason that the Leninists enter the front of the struggle is because we want to control everything, and as usual i will have to differ from that idea. See, we, as the vanguard of the working class see our actions as an example, and as such we feel obligated to be in the front line of the struggle, yet, you BE (Leftis BLock, a Portuguese radical leftist party/organization/political aberration wich HAtred has the symbol on his avatar) are driven out of envy for opur movement, because truth speaking it is our party that has a bigger and most important influence in the proletarian struggle in our country. You seem to prefer drifting along with the movement instead of actually taking a serious part of it, and most importantly you are a leftist movement that seems to have their own insterests in consideration instead of actually being there for the working class.

To sum it up, it is rather more usual to see a true genuine interest and care for the workling class conditions and ideology in the "leninist" sectors of the movement than in many of your radical party or organisation or whatever BE actually is....
That is the real reason of why the "Leninists" tend to be in the front of every strugle instead of the more mediatic movements such as yours.
In simple terms, wile you aspire to become the number one true leftist movement, we actually are the true representors of the working class, and that is the reason why you envy and hate us leninists so much....

(please note that i am taking in consideration the Portuguese reality, yet i do not think that the global reality of the movement is so far off of our own reality)

Donnie
14th July 2005, 20:59
Thats true. Alot of the people who go to punk rock concerts or become vegans or ride their bike everywhere consider themselves anarchists. They believe that simplying "becoming the change you want to see in the world" will do the trick while actually a deep look into class analysis and struggle is in order. It's a shame.

As much as I'm not any of that, for example I’m not a vegan nor am I a vegetarian and I don't even have a bike! It seems to be true though that there is a lot of crusties in the Anarchist movement because I saw a lot up at the G8 summit. Now I certainly consider ecology a very important and key issue although I my self and most anarchists I have met seem to put our class struggle priorities first, well I certainly do.

enigma2517
15th July 2005, 01:34
In simple terms, wile you aspire to become the number one true leftist movement, we actually are the true representors of the working class, and that is the reason why you envy and hate us leninists so much....

Aww damnit.

Man I knew it :(

I'm so jealous now. By the way I don't hate Leninists I just feel that after a century their methods are a bit outdated and unjustified. If something doesn't work too well, wouldn't it make sense to try something new for a change?

Quick question(s) for you, can you describe a historical event where a Leninist party has 100% selflessly championed the goals of the working class? What evidence do you have to offer that your glorious movement will actually represent the working class, not substitute for them? How do you as a party propose to EMPOWER them?

Black Dagger
16th July 2005, 14:04
Alot of the people who go to punk rock concerts or become vegans or ride their bike everywhere consider themselves anarchists

That's good for them, but those people are not a 'part' of the anarchist 'movement'- they're people who go to punk concerts, ride bikes or 'become vegans'. Talking about such people as if they are relevant to the anarchist 'movement' or to anarchism as a viable approach, is the same as talking about 'anarcho'-capitalists, or any other random person/group of people. Applying a label (incorrectly) does not make one relevant to the group one is identifying with. And besides, such people are not identifying with the anarchist 'movement' per se, but the term itself- because it sounds rebellious or 'cool'- even more reason to ignore them.