Voting Age

[LeftoverAnimal]

I feel very strongly that the voting age in Democratic system (Democrocy! Where???) of today NEEDS to be lowered to the age of 16. If you want to know why, i will give you some reasons:
1. At 16 you have to pay taxes if you are on a certain income or higher (the amount i cant remember) You have to pay tax BUT you are not allowed a say in where it goes etc.
2. In Great Britian you are legaly allowed to have sex at 16, the governments reasonong on why they refuse to lower the voting age is because they feel we are to irresponsible at this age, YET they feel we are responsible enough to make love????? Doesnt quite add up does it.
3. At 16 in the UK you can join the army, although they say you are not to go on the frontline, in a all out war the rules are different, its crazy you can die for your country at 16 BUT you cant vote on how it is run!!!!!!???????

There are more reasons but i cant be arsed to write much more. IT REALLY PISSES ME OFF LOWER THE VOTING AGE NOW!!!!!!!!!!!! If you agree publisize as much as you can the nescesity of this, there are a number of orginisations you can get in touch with to raise your support, if you want them e-mail me at [email protected]

Anyway what are peoples opinions on this???

[Jaha]

it is difficult to apply laws to anyone and not allow them to vote.

lower the age.

[bluerev002]

i dont think so.......i mean,

1 i bet that the majority of sixtten year olds wont even bother to go voter,
2. all the popular kids will all agree on one guy and vote for that one guy, just cuz their friends do and they dont know jack poo about what their voting for
3. its soo easy to brainwash them, i mean you say that they can pump up their music as loud as they want during the night and you got votes, its very easy to do so with them.
4. and i dont think any one knows about what their gonna vote for, so fudge it, they flip a coin, and randomly pick one

[canikickit]

I agree with BlueRev. I don't want to get assaulted for being ageist again (and I've just been called "mean" elsewhere) but you'll understand when you get older. Sixteen year old's thinking is not always 100% rational. Most 18 year olds' thinking isn't rational.

When I was 16 I thought I knew the score. Then three years later I realised that a lot of things were much clearer at 19. Now things are even more clear.

Just because kids are allowed to have sex in the UK doesn't mean they should be allowed to vote wherever you are.

[IHP]

Im with bluerev and canikickit, i don't even know a handful of sixteen year olds who know shit about politics, and what really are the important issues. A lot of them will probably vote with their parents, or their friends. Just a couple more years mate.:)

--IHP

[ComradeJunichi]

Hm, difficult question/suggestion. Well I agree that many 16 year olds would not care, but if we are not allowed to vote...then we should not be forced to pay the taxes or whatever was mentioned in the first post.

[yourfriend]

100% aggreed with Comrade J. you can't have one without the other. either they vote and have responsibilities, or dont vote and dont pay taxes etc.

[Angie]

I'm a little surprised (in a good way, I think) at seeing someone so young want to vote so readily. When I was sixteen, I didn't have any interest in politics at all, and I'm not sure I knew anyone at the time who did.

Upon reaching 18, and Australia's legal age, I started receiving letter upon letter from the head of my electorate (up to 4 or 5 a week, sometimes), trying to convince me to vote for him in any and all of the several elections that occurred shortly after my birthday that year. I quickely grew to resent the man's tactics, and it didn't help my feelings towards politics when my only links to anyone involved in it, were negative!

I've had a long time to develop my opinions since then, and thankfully he doesn't bother writing much anymore - he stopped being so persistent after the first five years or so, and it's been wonderfully quiet since then.

Honestly, it wasn't until I was well into my 20s that I really bothered paying attention to the political system. For a long time it was just an extra event on the odd weekend, down at the local primary school. Now, it's something very important to me.

I can understand why people would want to start early, especially in the present political climate. I'm not sure that 16 is the right age, though. Even if it is only two years later, 18 is a reasonable age. For those people under 18 who want to vote, get involved with the party you support and help them get other people's votes until you can give them yourself.

:)

[bluerev002]

too true angie, i like the idea of getting a group started and getting people to the right person.

[Angie]

Thanks bluerev002. :)

The UK's Labour Party has an already established Young Labour group, I believe - which I'm using here as just an example - I'm sure that some other parties have similar groups as well. There's certainly a few Socialist-orientated websites floating around the internet that have youth-based sections.

That said, I do personally feel it could be more fun to start up a group from scratch, so your idea is perfect! Communities like this are a good place to start looking for local contacts, too.

[BOZG]

1 i bet that the majority of sixtten year olds wont even bother to go voter,
2. all the popular kids will all agree on one guy and vote for that one guy, just cuz their friends do and they dont know jack poo about what their voting for
3. its soo easy to brainwash them, i mean you say that they can pump up their music as loud as they want during the night and you got votes, its very easy to do so with them.
4. and i dont think any one knows about what their gonna vote for, so fudge it, they flip a coin, and randomly pick one

By saying this, you assume that as soon as you become 18, you magically become maturer, you go against popularity, you are no longer subject to brainwashing and that you would never gamble anything on coin toss.

[LeftoverAnimal]

THANK YOU BornOfZapatasGuns i thought i was stuck in a forum of 1 view. There was poll taken ercently by a childrens charity in which it found that more 16/17 year olds were interested in politics than 18+ year olds. I know how poll's like this can be innacurate, but i am sure it was fare and is accurate. Young Labour?? it used to be the young Socialist, but know its like the labour baby's and who wants to be one of them!!! Its not soo easy to brainwash 16 yr olds, people really do have the oppinion that there is as Bornof.. say, that when you turn 18 its like a magical change in what you think. There are probably more adults that have no idea and are stupid drones than 16/17 year olds. Think about it, it all makes sense really, are you all scared of change? i think thats a bit conservative, dont you?

[BOZG]

In my opinion, any 16 year old I've met (besides a few) are as mature as any 18 year old. If you keep emphasising that they are more immature than 18 year olds then that is what you will get.

[LOIC]

Why the fuck do you want to vote?
You vote for someone and when the guy have the power he do nothing except stealing the more money he can for his retirement.
Power corrupt. The best man in the world will always abuse of his power.
So we don't need to take the power or give it to someone, we must destroy it.

[BOZG]

Voting does not necessarily have to do with elections. You can vote in referendums.

[LeftoverAnimal]

Thats such a negative attitude LOIC, no matter who you vote for VOTING is still something very important, its basic democracy! Children and young people DO NOT have a say in the running of this country (gb) and others, which is also why we need a CHILDRENS RIGHTS COMMISIONER!!!!!! Voting is important, democracy is important WE ARE IMPORTANT.

[LOIC]

I agree with you LeftoverAnimal, youth must be heard.
Elections are bullshit but there are a lot of others ways to act if you want to express your opinions(associations, demonstrations, art...).
In france some people say that if elections could really change something, it would have been forbidden.
If think democracy is in the streets, not in a polling station.

BornOfZapatasGuns, i can tell you that referendums in france are a joke.
Referendums are only used when the government is sure that people will vote as the government want. But I don't know how it happens elsewhere.

[BOZG]

BornOfZapatasGuns, i can tell you that referendums in france are a joke.
Referendums are only used when the government is sure that people will vote as the government want. But I don't know how it happens elsewhere.

I understand you. Just last Saturday, the Irish electorate had to vote on whether to ratify the Nice treaty for Europe after already voting it down last year. Unfortunately it passed this year.

[Jaha]

if one is going to live in a system, they should have the right to a fair chance at changing it. now, i admit, it is rediculous to ask infants or the legally insane to vote, but all people capible of voting should have that right.

if kids are just going to vote randomly, then it wont affect the outcome anyways. if they dont care about voting, they wont drive the loooonnnnng (lol) distance to the polling station and also will not affect the outcome.

if a country claims a democracy, i say, at least do a better job faking it!

[LeftoverAnimal]

Exactly, please raise this issue every where!!!!!!! it needs to have loads of publicity, if you want to know more contact the childrens rights Alliance for England, i cant remember the details, but search it on an engine and youl find the site

[bluerev002]

Quote: from BornOfZapatasGuns on 4:57 pm on Oct. 23, 2002

1 i bet that the majority of sixtten year olds wont even bother to go voter,
2. all the popular kids will all agree on one guy and vote for that one guy, just cuz their friends do and they dont know jack poo about what their voting for
3. its soo easy to brainwash them, i mean you say that they can pump up their music as loud as they want during the night and you got votes, its very easy to do so with them.
4. and i dont think any one knows about what their gonna vote for, so fudge it, they flip a coin, and randomly pick one

By saying this, you assume that as soon as you become 18, you magically become maturer, you go against popularity, you are no longer subject to brainwashing and that you would never gamble anything on coin toss.


no. i never said anything about 18 year old ppl being much better voters. in fact i never even mentioned 18.
and no i dont thing that your magically mature, hell my dads 40 and hes still a little kid. so no i dont think that or even mentioned that, you just assumed it.

[BOZG]

The topic was to reduce the voting age from 18 to 16. And by implying the reasons that 16 year olds shouldn't be allowed vote then you're basically saying 18 year olds should be allowed vote because they're more maturer etc.

I understand that maybe you weren't trying to say that but that's what your post implies.

[Conghaileach]

Jesus, do you people think we're living in a democracy or something?

[Jaha]

democracy? where? just point and i'll start running in that general direction.

got to get out of this facade......

[IHP]

Of course you don't magically become more mature. But it is generally considered that at an older age you are less likely to be influenced. Of course there will be exceptions, but nationally it's more likely that older people will know more overall.

About that poll that was taken. Seriously? Jeez, well in Australia (from my 18 years experience) that certainly wouldn't be accurate.

--IHP

[Discourse of Method]

yeah if we got all these nationalist capitalist bastard 16 year olds to vote, it might make things bad for the leftists. lets wait till their older nationalist capitalist bastards and keep the voting age at 18. cool?

[redstar2000]

I agree with the folks who said that capitalist democracy is a fake, so who cares?

But consider a real democracy where people had real authority: should age be a criterion for voting at all?

I mean, we've all known young people of surprising maturity and old people who shouldn't be trusted to walk a dog, much less vote.

How about something like this: whenever YOU think it's time for you to start voting, you go to some government office and take a test on basic political knowledge (like the written part of a driver's license test).

You pass the test, you get your voter's license. You don't, you sit the next election out. Age is irrelevant.
Take the test as often as you like until you pass. But until you pass, you can't vote.

I know, it's much too sensible an idea in the present era, but perhaps the future will know better.

[BOZG]

How about something like this: whenever YOU think it's time for you to start voting, you go to some government office and take a test on basic political knowledge (like the written part of a driver's license test).

You pass the test, you get your voter's license. You don't, you sit the next election out. Age is irrelevant.
Take the test as often as you like until you pass. But until you pass, you can't vote.

I know, it's much too sensible an idea in the present era, but perhaps the future will know better.

And thus you create a new class, an intellectual class, who control the power. Education is the key, not tests.

[redstar2000]

BZG, I don't think you have to be an "intellectual" to pass the written portion of a driver's license test.

All I was suggesting was something like: what are the offices up for grabs in the next election and what do they do? Who are the candidates and what are their views? For crying out loud, it ain't rocket science!

[Frosty]

redstar,
And may i ask how and by who that test would be made?
I'm basically against that. It is far too easy to be abused by the government. Imagine such a test in the usa...

As to lowering age:
Here i'm afraid that the liberalist reactionary pseudo-racist rightist party (also known as the FrP) would get too many votes then. Teenagers would either listen to their media propaganda of cheaper beer, lower taxes and "kick out the evil foreigners" (the majority) or stick to the leftist parties (the minority).
My little analyzis.
Although i would like to vote ("RV, you have my vote" ) i don't think it would make much sense in this kind of so-called "democracy".

(Edited by Frosty at 9:50 pm on Oct. 25, 2002)

[redstar2000]

Frosty, you're not paying attention! I'm talking about a REAL democracy, not the shithole we have in the USA. In a REAL democracy, age is IRREVELANT to voting. In a FAKE democracy, it doesn't matter because voting itself doesn't matter. The only people who have votes that really count here are CEO's...and they're all over 50!

As for people OF ANY AGE who vote for Nazis, that's a different kind of question altogether. I think the old Kommunist Partei Deutschlands (KPD) had the right idea: SMASH THE NAZI WHEREVER YOU FIND HIM! Maybe they couldn't do it, but they tried. So should we!

[Libertarius]

I partially agree.

We should not have to pay taxes to a government if we have no say in which government we pay them to, or how the money is used. That is simply illogical.

I think they should abolish youth taxes (discount or not) if we are not to have any say in who gets them. I think I might start some tax evasion... :)

[Anonymous]

Nope, shpouldnt get vote till 18. 16 is just not responsible nuff, baring few exceptions.


still i can vote nextg election

yay for me

yay yay yat

[Smoking Frog II]

I support you, 100%

[LeftoverAnimal]

Smoking Frog II, who do you support? as tp "Nope, shpouldnt get vote till 18. 16 is just not responsible nuff, baring few exceptions." Thats just bollocks. And that voting liscence sounds a bit facsist doesnt it? There is of coarse a simple solution, lower the voting age? i dont know thought, i am just a dumb irresponsible almost 16 year old.

[Sasafrás]

Personally, I think it should be lowered to 17. Not 16, because I just don't think that 16 year olds would care enough. Plus, at 16, you don't have any other rights, but when you're 17, you're practically almost an adult and sometimes, that one year between 16 and 17 really makes a difference. And I think that here in the US, you can be 17 to serve in the military or at least sign up. I think that for the most part, 17 year olds are able to make decisions based on their own ideas rather than those of parents, friends, teachers, etc. I'll be 18 in February, and I know that between now and when I was 16, I am very different and most of my friends are as well.. I have many more ideas..

[Cassius Clay]

To a certain extent I agree that people who are 16 (the vast majority anyway) could not care less and I think it would just reflect badly on how many people DIDN'T turn out to vote who could of.

But then there's the old saying that if somebody is old and responsible enough to have sex then surely voting shouldn't really matter in that context.

[LOIC]

This is a problem without end cuz if you lower to 16, 15 years old people would say"why can't we vote, we are as mature as a 16 year old boy(or girl).
So I think that as long as there is a minimum age to vote, there are always people who complain that they are to young.

Anyway you want to change this fucked up society?
You don't need a ballot.
Ther are a lot of others ways to act who are more efficient.
Fight the system don't let it corrupt you with crappy elections or referendums.

[LeftoverAnimal]

Things are different here in the uk, you have to bear that in mind, 16 is the minimum age for most things in this country anyway, i'd like to know why everyone here is so judgemental about how 16 year olds work, i thought most socialists would be open minded?? I am really beggining to think that this community is made up mostly of people who are so far up their own a rese that they think they preach the word of "god" and that they are so right!!!??? ARRRGGHHH PLEASE RESEARCH THINGS< PLEASE BE OPEN MINDED AND PLEASE DONT BE SO FUCKING NEGATIVE!!!

[Frosty]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 4:18 pm on Oct. 26, 2002
Frosty, you're not paying attention! I'm talking about a REAL democracy, not the shithole we have in the USA. In a REAL democracy, age is IRREVELANT to voting. In a FAKE democracy, it doesn't matter because voting itself doesn't matter. The only people who have votes that really count here are CEO's...and they're all over 50!

As for people OF ANY AGE who vote for Nazis, that's a different kind of question altogether. I think the old Kommunist Partei Deutschlands (KPD) had the right idea: SMASH THE NAZI WHEREVER YOU FIND HIM! Maybe they couldn't do it, but they tried. So should we!


Yo chill down man.

I'm talking Norway here (please all you americans, tell me you all know where Norway is ;) )
They aren't "really" racists, they just want to get "rid of" annoying, criminal foreigners that, according to what they see on tv, are responsible for 90% of all crime in the country.
Each vote here has more of a say than in a larger country.
But not real democracy here either.
Not really much of a point lowering he age.

Here the "colleges" of 15-18 year olds have isolated elections. The results are published, but really ignored.

As to me not paying attention: i replied to the thread as a whole.
No I don't support such tests.
In a real democracy (whenever it comes around) you should get to vote when you feel responsible for and have thought over what you vote.

[LOIC]

"I am really beggining to think that this community is made up mostly of people who are so far up their own a rese that they think they preach the word of "god" and that they are so right!!!??? "

Everyone share his opinion, this is the goal of a community.

I admit that there are some 16 year old people who are more able to vote(because they feel more concerned and they have more knowledge about politic)than adults
but there are also a lot of kids who don't give a shit about politics.
Anyway a minimum age must be find.

[Len]

every one i know would just try to be funny by voting for Semore Butts or something like that. Children can be so juvenille

[LeftoverAnimal]

of coarse everyone can share their opinion, i am just of the opinion that alot of people are a bit narrow minded

[Jaha]

i think a lot of people have misconceptions about 16-year-olds. if the voting age is lowered, that does not mean masses of stupid 16-year-olds will run to the ballots. do any of you think a kid will give a fuck about voting if on the same night they have a party? "yay, i get to write 'Semore Butts' on a ballot!! thats worth skipping my favorite t.v. show!!" no you fools. the losers who dont give a shit wont VOTE!

adults who dont give a shit dont vote. the only problem with lowering the age is that there will be more potential people who 'think' they are smart enough to vote. but they are out numbered so it will not ruin anything.

[Palmares]

When people begin to realise the state inwhich the world is, then it is necessary for the people to have a say. At 16 some reach this realisation, and those who have not in mosr cases will not vote. If we have to pay like citizens/adults, then we should have the rights of one.

"Man will become immeasurably stronger, wiser, and subtler; his body will become more harmonious, his movements more rhythmic, his voice more musical. The forms of life will become dynamically dramatic. The average human type will rise to the heights of an Aristotle, a Goethe, or a Marx. And above these heights, new peaks will rise."
-Leon Trotsky

[redstar2000]

I think it's really kind of shocking to see so many young people prejudiced against THEMSELVES. It's like hearing a (small) group of people of color suggesting that non-whites "really are kind of inferior."

I fail to see any logical reason for a "minimum age" for anything...except maybe to make some bureaucrat's job easier. IF you can demonstrate knowledge/skill in ANY field of human activity, then logically WHY the hell should you be stopped from doing it???

Would you tell Mozart to quit fucking around with all those complicated symphonies and start listening to pop music? Would you tell J.S. Mill to stop studying Greek and start reading Dick & Jane crap?

Kids are like any other random sample of the population; some are smart, some are dumb. Some are responsible, some are fuckoffs. Some are seriously interested in politics, some couldn't find their own city on a map. To generalize on the basis of a calandar is just plain STUPID! (Sorry, I am narrow-minded on this issue...I remember how humiliated I was by all that age crap before I was 21.)

And those of you who are over 21, how shameful of you to forget so quickly what it was like and how it still feels for those who haven't made it yet! As if you had been released from imprisonment for a crime you did not commit and you immediately forget the innocent who are still in jail!

You should REALLY know better.

[Libertarius]

I truly do not care when I am allowed to vote. I just think it's atrocious that I have to pay taxes to a government that I fucking hate, and didn't want to come to power in the first place.

(Edited by Libertarius at 6:06 am on Oct. 29, 2002)

[LOIC]

"I just think it's atrocious that I have to pay taxes to a government that I fucking hate"
Same feeling for me. You give your money to the government, with this money the government can give new weapons to cops and with these weapons cops can make you obey to governments's orders.
There would be no problem if this money could help poor people.

Concerning voting age, I just want to say to people who are too young to vote that instead of complaining about the fact that they can't vote, they should do something more useful. No offense, but I think that if you believe that voting every 4 years is efficient, then you will be really disappointed the day that you will be able to vote.

[LeftoverAnimal]

Thats bollocks, voting makes a difference, even if it soesnt it is important to try and keep the democratic system active, even though there isnt one in GB anyway

[Hayduke]

Difficult,

In my case I would say yes, but that cause I care about the gonverment that is ruling my country and my interest for politics.

But I know alot of people, who wouldnt vote with there minds.

[IHP]

"the losers who dont give a shit wont VOTE!"

in my country its mandatory to vote, so not to vote is not an option.

--IHP