one says God and Anarchy cannot co-exist

[crappitydoodah]

Jacques Illul, friends of Guy Debord, wanted to joiin this now too famous movement...yet Guy, after a talk over with his friends could not allow for Illul to join the movement..
Illul now goes off to strugle in his attraction to both God and to Anarchy...how can Christianity and Anarchy Co-exist...

yet as emma goldman says in her essay on majority vs minority that the fault lays in the majority, not in Jesus...she even refers to him in a positive light...yet it is the movement of the masses that destroyed it's potential...

Illul capitalizes on this movement of the individual, away from the masses of religion, and goes off and writes books upon books...attempting to show the world that Christianity is not but Anarchy....Jesus as there leader!!!!

This is my struggle, and my attempt here....I know there are no religous individuals here (or I have yet to see them)...but I am here to test the waters...to see if once again a man will be turned away from the movement...but maybe that is the first step in anarchy...

[emma gg]

see, i think that the tyranny of religion is the problem... if one can make independet decisions about one's life, not pissing 10% into the great theivery of spirit, i think that your relationship with your god is a very personal and uplifting thing. just don't shit on anyone else's beliefs with yours.
i think that's maybe the point.
but those are my ideas, not emma's.
wait.
i am emma.
cool.

[crappitydoodah]

I'm catching a theme on this site...andthat is..."don't piss on me"

as you said, peoples problem is religion....not 'God"....

so the question still stands...

Can "God" and Anarchy co-exist??

[symtoms_of_humanity]

I belive yes they can, becuase if you say there is no God and don't follow religion you re therefore being an oppresor of people, personally I don't belive in a god, but I know many who do, and people have to stop saying things like "its gods will for me to do this" because in reality its thier desicion, and god is an excuse for people to make imperialistic decisons(the crusades) and priests should have to have real jobs, but could lead in prayer, same for jews and muslims and whomever and what ever( in my opinion Buddhism(sp) coincides best with anarchism because it is your own personal way to reach nirvana and there are no restrictions on buddhists(the original form of course) but I am not a buddhist, just stating an opinion

[danny android]

I am a christian. I am very religious. I am also a hard core anarcho-communist. I believe that jesus was a socialist. I have seen a lot of problems with the church as a lot latly with a lot of ignorance towards homosexuals and what not. I have been pretty angry with organized religion recently, but i have seen it do some good things like helping the homless and what not. However whenever I am sitting in my pue and the churchman is preaching at me about how i should vote and how i should think i just close my mind. Though i do believe that christians should be socialists and not the right-winged borgeuasie pigs which they have become. I am getting sick of it in all honesty. Not sick of my religion just organized religion.

[danny android]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 01:48 AM
I belive yes they can, becuase if you say there is no God and don't follow religion you re therefore being an oppresor of people, personally I don't belive in a god, but I know many who do, and people have to stop saying things like "its gods will for me to do this" because in reality its thier desicion, and god is an excuse for people to make imperialistic decisons(the crusades) and priests should have to have real jobs, but could lead in prayer, same for jews and muslims and whomever and what ever( in my opinion Buddhism(sp) coincides best with anarchism because it is your own personal way to reach nirvana and there are no restrictions on buddhists(the original form of course) but I am not a buddhist, just stating an opinion
yeah i am a big fan of budhism to. The thing that i like about it is that you can apply it to almost any religion. I have been thinking about praticing budhism along with my current christian beliefs. Being a budhist wouldn't force me to worship another god or anything because budha was an atheist in my understading. Budhism is more of a philosphy than a religion anyways.

[symtoms_of_humanity]

Yea, I also heard that the principles of Buddhism lead you to actually being happier in life(my frineds parents and my friend are buddhist) I just think its funny how they are against buying products, but they will have like buddhist paintings or statues or dragons and all that

[Hefer]

Born raised catholic and always will be, but I think it can co-exist, as long as they don't oppressing one another. But I feel a little betrayed by the CC for denouncing and not supportting theology liberation. But thats a whole different story.

[Organic Revolution]

i believe they can... check out jesusradicals.com

[Clarksist]

The argument is not between Religion and Anarchy, its between Church and Anarchy.

The Church is a hierarchy based on telling you what to do. So no, the Church and Anarchy cannot coexist.

Religion may be able to, but not a Church.

[Hiero]

Alot of the theory that creates the basis of Marxist and Anarchist societies, contradict the theories of religion.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Moving to Learning

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Definatly not, religion itself contradicts the fundaments of Anarchism. Exhibit number one:

- Anarchism is strictly anti-hierachy. Religion on the other hand promotes all all powerfull invisible being who we all should worship, often they claim that there are representatives of those powerfull beings here on earth. Instead we should listen and obey them. But even a group as the idiots from "jesusradicals", even they promote obedience and worship of "god". Even their whole "anarchy" streak comes, because they believe "you can't serve two masters". As Bakunin said: "if God really existed, it would be necessary to abolish him".

- Anarchism is a political theory based on materialism. We base our worldview and political ideas on what we can observe. Christians, Muslims and other nuts alligned don't believe this. They believe that all the truth can be found in never-proofen, contradictive books.

- Progressivism. Religion by it's nature is conservative. They believe that they should obey certain commandments and/or rules in their crappy books, this stops them from creating a true free society. Homosexual and female comrades are often at disadvantage here. Instead of creating a free society. Anarchism on the other hand is very progressive, it hurts to religionists to hear, but women and gay people really don't want to be treated as trash.

I really wonder what is it that capitalists and religionists don't understand about "anti-hierachy". Where did you people get the idea that we would be somehow willing to serve rich or invisible masters? Christ, go hijack another political direction. How about the Stalinists? Doesn't Stalino-Christian sound good? Or Stalino-Capitalist?

[Hiero]

How about the Stalinists? Doesn't Stalino-Christian sound good? Or Stalino-Capitalist?

What the fuck brought that on?

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Me. I am sick of people hijacking anarchism, so I proposed a different political theory to hijack.

[Oldergod]

i believe that the government uses religion and church as a tool...so eliminate that and you eliminate church...

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

You are partially right. But eliminating the gov't will not result in the destruction of the Church. From that moment on the church will do everything it can do bring the old bourgeoisie society back.

[Super Mario Conspiracy]

I believe that each person can believe whatever he or she wants, so long as his/her beliefs do not intrude on other people. However, as many here have already said, organized religion is a step down - mostly because of it's involvement with politics, which has a large impact on society today as many know.

[Oldergod]

of course they will...same way we'll still have capitalistic minds after the revolution...you will ALWAYS have opposing views...but you got to do to them what they been doing to us for so long...keep them down

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

How about effective destruction? The bourgeoisie is always trying to destroy us, but they can't really. When they kill a few of us, another few workingclass wake up and realize their situation. On the other hand religion can be effectivly destroyed as a political and social power and maybe dissapear completly within a few generations after a revolution.

[Commie Rat]

this sez my view in some many was more then i could say it

[redstar2000]

Have you ever asked yourself why is it that religions are organized into churches?

Think about it...if someone were really "able" to make contact with the "realm of the supernatural", wouldn't they spend all their time actually doing that or trying to? Once you've "seen God" (or "experienced enlightenment", whatever), why would "earthly matters" concern you any longer at all?

If there actually were "spiritual people" -- if such people really existed -- we'd have no way of detecting their existence...as they would be silent. They would have "left earthly matters behind them".

In fact, they'd probably find some completely deserted place (mountain top, abandoned warehouse, etc.), give up food and drink, and concentrate completely on communion "with the ONE" until their mortal bodies died and they were able to enter the "spiritual realm" completely.

On the other hand, if religion is simply a racket, then it needs to be organized to extract maximum profits, attract more suckers, etc.

It needs a fancy building for the same reason that a casino does -- to "create a mood" among the "customers" that will convince them to spend.

So when people say, "I'm in favor of religion but against organized religion -- churches", I have to really puzzle over what they mean by that.

As far as I can tell, there isn't any other kind of religion except organized religion.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/223.gif

[Super Mario Conspiracy]

Note also that the number of atheists worldwide is increasing. Governments have allowed homosexual marriage - which is against Church doctrine. I also think "direct action", mostly through medicine, have made people think that the scientists are right - that is - they get all the cures, while God gave them nothing (although they prayed all their lives).

[bombeverything]

Personally I think it is problematic to blend the two. Although many try to.

[crappitydoodah]

so many comments and so little time...

!)God is not religion/not church....anyone ever read Anti-Christ by Nietzche?? Pitting Jesus and Paul head to head...saying Jesus was the last Christian (who did not come to build a kindom on earth (Christiandom)) then paul came along and did this very thing, build a kingdom on earth..the church!!! Jesus came to liberate...say your free from the law...as God first did but men messed it up and created Gov't...

proof: The texts of Judiasm, there history, and the foundation of Christianity....claim that The jews had no gov't, yet in fear went and demanded one...God said no, they do not need it...but yes they said, give it too us...alright, yet it will suck, you must give up this and that, and your kids will have to lay down there lives in war and you must pay taxes and such not....

There was law..one must obey, yet Jesus says one does not need to obey (that is not the point)....God says he gives man over to there choices and steps back...gives them some examples to live by if they choose (like love your nieghbor) then steps back and allows man to choose and create gov't and war and hatred and anger and distruction and pain....making man responsible for there actions...the devil is originally diablos wich is originally meant as division, not a little evil man running around...so God says the evil in the world is no united front...division...gov't....sects, etc...!!!!

God does not demand to be the leader...God makes man responsible for his own actions (the key of anarchy, individual responsibility)...to choose or not to choose.....even hell is not described as a place the devil is ruler of, but simply to be away from God....Christians have turned it into a plaything to throw around at those they wish to control and run over....

Christianity is a Joke...created to rule and control....building Christiandom....

Yet there is God standing back as even he realizes the freedom he gives allows this Christiandom in his name....He is the father of Anarchy....to allow....freedom...the ability to choose to take anothers life....even the ability to build a kingdom on earth in his name (what a sad day)....He stands back for freedom is all in his eyes....our choice is all in his eyes...

so many questions...so little time...

[Black Dagger]

Yet there is God standing back as even he realizes the freedom he gives allows this Christiandom in his name....He is the father of Anarchy....to allow....freedom...the ability to choose to take anothers life....even the ability to build a kingdom on earth in his name (what a sad day)....He stands back for freedom is all in his eyes....our choice is all in his eyes..

Urgh, i think i just threw up a little as i read that. Do you understand that anarchism is a rejection of hierarchy correct? The only thing worse than earthly hierarchy is meta-physical 'divine' hierarchy- that is 'god'. Submission to god, theism, is an anti-human stance. You're placing an authority above humanity, we do not have freedom because we make it, we have freedom because 'god' is kind enough to grant it to us.
That is not freedom, that is slavery- unwavering obedience supported by 'supreme' punishment. As the 'great giver' of freedom, of apparently anything of value in the world, we are indebted to this 'god'. Thus 'He' demands our alleigance and punishes those who 'disobey' him-some times with earthy genocide, and otherwise in the perpetual suffering of 'hell' following our 'earthly death'- sounds fair to me :rolleyes:


He is the father of Anarchy....to allow....freedom...

That is not only non-sensical- but insulting. Your 'father' has no place in 'anarchism'. Anarchism cannot have a 'supreme ruler' or 'father'- that is implies, overtly- an authority- an immutable hierarchy- we are forever 'inferior' and subject to 'gods will'. Moreover, how can a materialist philosophy have as its 'father' a meta-physical 'super being'? That is completety illogical. 'Allowing freedom' is the rhetoric of an autocrat- not an anarchist, fitting it is thus that 'god' is the 'highest' of all autocrats, 'he' demands supreme obedience from his subjects, floating above us all in 'his' invisible kingdom in the 'heavens'. I'm sure anarcha-feministas really appreciate your assertion of divine patriarchy as well- by the way.

Before you produce any more of this, please respond to NSB's post on the previous page, thank you :)

[Don't Change Your Name]

God is an invisible fascist dictator.

[Publius]

Have you ever asked yourself why is it that religions are organized into churches?

Think about it...if someone were really "able" to make contact with the "realm of the supernatural", wouldn't they spend all their time actually doing that or trying to? Once you've "seen God" (or "experienced enlightenment", whatever), why would "earthly matters" concern you any longer at all?

If there actually were "spiritual people" -- if such people really existed -- we'd have no way of detecting their existence...as they would be silent. They would have "left earthly matters behind them".

In fact, they'd probably find some completely deserted place (mountain top, abandoned warehouse, etc.), give up food and drink, and concentrate completely on communion "with the ONE" until their mortal bodies died and they were able to enter the "spiritual realm" completely.

On the other hand, if religion is simply a racket, then it needs to be organized to extract maximum profits, attract more suckers, etc.

It needs a fancy building for the same reason that a casino does -- to "create a mood" among the "customers" that will convince them to spend.

So when people say, "I'm in favor of religion but against organized religion -- churches", I have to really puzzle over what they mean by that.

As far as I can tell, there isn't any other kind of religion except organized religion.

Deism? Pantheism? Transcendentalism?

Practioners of those are the only religious people I can tolerate, generally because they aren't very religious.

[Publius]

God is an invisible fascist dictator.

Except for the deistic God.

[crappitydoodah]

Originally posted by Black [email protected] 6 2005, 08:19 AM
how can a materialist philosophy have
Alright...here's the deal...as a materialist philospher you cannot accept me and my ideas...(well depending on what camp you hold in the materialist realm since there are many) and as a non-materialist philospher I cannot accept your ideas...an anarchist definition will exist in your world and mine...since I must define it as I see the world and you as you see it...so instead of a pointless ongoing battle...let's do this....you give me some books to read, so I can study your view..your base...give me something...since this argument will end in only frustration!!!

Black Dagger....lets see what you got.

[Black Dagger]

On what topic? My argument/understanding is rooted in the materialism of the anarcho-marxist traditions. Anarchism and Marxism are materialist philosophies, they reject meta-physical or 'supernatural' explanations for the world, its origins, the functions and structure of society and the actions of its inhabitants. That is my base, the base of anarchism. You are asserting that anarchism is infact rooted in the 'supernatural', 'god' as the 'father' of 'anarchy', asserting a meta-physical explanation for a materialist philosophy- that doesn't make any sense, practically, historically or even logically. I have not read any books that have 'taught' me this position, it's self-evident if one understands materialism, and its association with marxism and anarchism.

How can a philosophy rooted in materialist explanations be 'controlled'/'directed' by a 'supernatural' being? If you wish to assert yourself as a 'christian anarchist' than so be it, but it is non-sensical to assert that anarchism, as a distinct concept or philosophy-from your theism, is rooted in the non-material world. That is like asserting that the 'father' of christianity was/is mikhail bakunin.

That is the plain rejection of your proposal, for the more specific rejection, in terms of the structure your idea imposes, ie. an anarchist trying imposing an immutable 'divine' hierarchy, see my previous post.

[crappitydoodah]

Originally posted by Black [email protected] 8 2005, 11:31 AM
Anarchism and Marxism are materialist philosophies, they reject meta-physical or 'supernatural' explanations for the world, its origins, the functions and structure of society and the actions of its inhabitants. That is my base, the base of anarchism.

How can a philosophy rooted in materialist explanations
Philosophy does not define this world....yours or mine, yet stems from expression of what is....so no theory and whatnot can stem from philosophy...making it several steps removed from what is, no matter how accurate your philosophy is. for once things are rooted from the philosophy we choose then they find there life in our theory, and not what is...no matter how accurate they might be....so as you can see the fact that you consider it a materialist philosphy is absurd, for wether this statement is true or not, you are bringing it too far away from were it began, cutting off it's life-force, and hanging it out to dry...
wether we live in a world with supernatural explanations or not.....Anarchy will still exist...simplyin different understanding....yet our insistence will never prove or disprove (no matter what camus says)....and only with shoving the dependence of a materialist philosophy or non-materialist foundation for this truth will we kill it...leaving it out to be attacked bythe wolves...it simply becomes food for the un-original!!! The dependent!!! The man that is removed from his very life!!!

[Black Dagger]

....so as you can see the fact that you consider it a materialist philosphy is absurd, for wether this statement is true or not, you are bringing it too far away from were it began, cutting off it's life-force, and hanging it out to dry..

What 'fact'? The preceding paragraph had no discernable point and your 'factual' conclusion is that stating that anarchism is a materialist philosophy is absurd? Which anarchist texts have you been reading? Anarchism was birthed by Proudhoun and Bakunin- as a secular philosophy, one that plainly rejected, 'god', 'the church', and 'the state', in favour of logic, reason and science.


wether we live in a world with supernatural explanations or not.....Anarchy will still exist...simplyin different understanding....yet our insistence will never prove or disprove (no matter what camus says)....and only with shoving the dependence of a materialist philosophy or non-materialist foundation for this truth will we kill it...leaving it out to be attacked bythe wolves...it simply becomes food for the un-original!!! The dependent!!! The man that is removed from his very life!!!

As with the first paragraph, i dont' understand your point.

[crappitydoodah]

Originally posted by Black [email protected] 10 2005, 09:40 AM
Anarchism was birthed by Proudhoun and Bakunin- as a secular philosophy, one that plainly rejected, 'god', 'the church', and 'the state', in favour of logic, reason and science.

nothing like trading one form of slavery for the next....God, The Church, and The State, for Logic, Reason, and Science....

for anarchy is the philosophy of freedom, not the theory of Logic, Reason, and Science....man, when are you gonna let go of these forms of control and slavery...you ever read any thing by Chomsky??? like the essay, "Objectivity and Liberal Sholarship"?? His attack on the idea that Reason/Logic (knowledge) will struggle in a more desperate way for power then the idea that your born into power or hold it by class. You can not trust it!!! It will be more desparte, and violent...

you a fan of Socrates...sounds like it...the founder of so called reason...and the Father of one of the worst forms of slavery, the thought that one must struggle for reason alone to find truth...and one is nothing without it!!!

For the mad man is still man, and if any theory calls for a definition of man that belittles even him it needs to be done with!!!!

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by crappitydoodah
For the mad man is still man...

Um, no he isn't. The capacity and willingness to use reason is what makes us human.

The "mad man" is, at best, humanoid...an animal that looks human but really isn't.

(Note, however, that unwillingness to accept the "conventional wisdom" is not, in and of itself, evidence of "madness".)

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/223.gif

[Black Dagger]

nothing like trading one form of slavery for the next....God, The Church, and The State, for Logic, Reason, and Science....

How is promoting critical thinking and suspicion/resistance to illogical and irrational ideas enslaving oneself? Your statement is just meaningless rhetoric.

The church and state represent opression-hierarchy-authority over people, this authority manifests itself in philosophical, but also (importantly) physical ways. The state uses physical violence to maintain its power, the church gives justification for believers to do the same thing- these processes, coupled with the non-physical powers of the church and state- propaganda- social hegemony and so forth- 'enslave' people.

Stating that anarchists rely on logic, reason, science (scientific thinking)- as materialists is the opposite of slavery. It's by using rational-logical-scientific arguments- thinking critically- that we can liberate ourselves mentally from the slavery of religion, and of the social-societal conditioning of the national culture- the state. These tools also gives us the means to form coherent critiques of the state, of capitalism, of hierarchy etc. Something a non-materialist (such as yourself) cannot provide. Materialists use these tools in their thinking, they are not slaves to them- as they have no direct physical component- their is no 'logic and rationality'- hit squad that hunts materialists who stray from the realm of critical thinking. Your accusation of 'slavery' is completely unsupported rhetoric- nothing more.



for anarchy is the philosophy of freedom, not the theory of Logic, Reason, and Science....

There's more to philosophical anarchism than just the concept of freedom. The nature of power for example, which consists of an analysis of forms and uses of power in human society, by people broadly- but importantly the church and state- and which involves a rejection of both.



man, when are you gonna let go of these forms of control and slavery...you ever read any thing by Chomsky??? like the essay, "Objectivity and Liberal Sholarship"??

Chomsky? The 'socialist libertarian'? The supporter of electoralism? Of the US Democratic Party? Why should his ideas shape my understanding of anarchist philosophy? Why not Bakunin? Kropotkin? Malatesta? Goldman? Guérin? Proudhoun? Berkman? These are anarchists, these are materialists- some of the innovators of anarchist philosophy.



His attack on the idea that Reason/Logic (knowledge) will struggle in a more desperate way for power then the idea that your born into power or hold it by class. You can not trust it!!! It will be more desparte, and violent...

I do not understand what you're trying to say. I cannot trust my own critical thinking? I can't trust logic or rational thinking? What should shape my understanding, my critique of capitalism? Of society? Of hierarchy?
If not materialism- 'god'? Why should i depend on- irrational arguments?



you a fan of Socrates...sounds like it...the founder of so called reason...and the Father of one of the worst forms of slavery, the thought that one must struggle for reason alone to find truth...and one is nothing without it!!!

I've never read Socrates in my life, so his ideas have no direct impact on my thoughts or actions. The ideas of reason, logic, critical thinking- scientific thinking- materialism- these are tools to be used- they are independant- to be used by any individual. The ideas of Socrates do not dictate contemporary materialist approaches, i am not a 'disciple' of Socrates.



For the mad man is still man, and if any theory calls for a definition of man that belittles even him it needs to be done with!!!!

You mean in the way that the concept of 'god' belittles humanity? :rolleyes:

Your posts are becoming less and less intelligible. If you don't wish to engage me in a coherent way- please don't bother replying. Your non-sense ranting is not a substitute for counter-argument. Either address my posts directly or don't bother replying- because i will not waste any more time responding to you.

[Andy Alexis-Baker]

"Jacques Illul"

Well first of all his name is "Jacques Ellul". It would help you to be taken seriously if yu knew the persons name you were supposedly talking about (have you even read any Ellul?)

This thread is an example of how anarchism can become an ideology of its own, withits own dogmas and statements of faith.

If someone does not believe in some atheism they are somehow out of the clique...must we subscribe to your statement of faith in an antheistic anarchism?'

Anarchism can become a strangler of truth and a violent, murderous ideology when it is used in the way that it is being used here. To exclude, to ostracize rather than reach out to build bridges.

During the russian revolution the Makhnovites provide a good example of this:

John Rempel whose family is Russian Mennonite had family who lived through the Russian revolution. he told me this heart wrenching story:

The Makhnovites needed troops to fight the Red army so they came to the Mennonite village and demanded that the men come with them to join and fight. The men explained that they were pacifists and the reasons for it. This probably took time, and negotiations went on for a few hours. Finally the Makhnovites got tired and pointed a gun at the father's head and told him, "Come with us, or you will be shot in the head right now." he declined and they shot him in the head right in front of his family. They went to the next in line and told the son, "come with us, or you will die like your father." The son refused and they shot him dead. The next son, was a newly wedded man, and his bride was there and they were all weeping because of their father and brother had been murdered in cold blood before their eyes. The Makhnovites, told him, "come now, or you get a bullet." The newly wedded son's wife looked at him and told him, "Do not betray your faith." He declined...the Makhnovites shot him dead in front of his wife.

The Makhnovites left, empty handed. The man who told my friend John this story, witnessed this event, he was a very young boy at the time and was overwhelmed with grief that his father and brothers were killed. But he told John, "I became a pacifist the day I saw my father and brothers die for their faith."

(just another oral story from Mennonite land...the Mennonites live on...but the Makhnovites?)

ideology that is willing to sacrifice people like worships a god as well: itself. Let's not turn your anarchism into a god, by excluding God.