fuck che guevara

[cultural_revolutionary]

u guys believe that ur all communists, and sure u are. but why? you're just communists because uve been indirectly brainwashed by che guevara. u just believe in him cuz uve seen the fucking shirts sold at the malls and all the fuckin conformists who dont even know who he is wearing a shirt with his face on it. you've all made him friedrich nietzsche's "superman." you dont believe in yourselves anymore your just following him cuz ur all too sheltered and its something new. ooo communism its un american your some fucking rebel now. and u buy merchendice with his face on it. that doesnt do shit for a revolution but help fund america's economy and whatever store you bought it from. none of that money goes to che guevara or your "belief" in communism, it helps the democracy stay alive. its all bull shit and none of u realize it. Che guevara was a fucking totalarianist who spread brutal totalarianism throughout latin america. he didnt achieve anything but disaster. and u say fuck u fascist u dont know what ur talking about. i know exactly what i'm talking about, none of you do. Che guevara was freedoms fuckin rival. he established a fucking unjust social system but the ignorant "lefties" turned him into an idol who believed in freedom where everyone was happy. bull shit. no one was happy under che. he set up a labor camp wich eventually turned into a place where they killed gays and the sick and people who didnt fit in. nobody was equal under che. it wasnt communism, its the negative fascism wich u all dispise. none of u know shit about che guevara.

[*Hippie*]

no one was happy under che.

"Under" Che? :D He was never the leader of the country, Fidel was.
You are the only one here who doesn't know anything about Che.
And being Communist is "conformist", in what country, the U.S.? HA HA!
And you assume we are all American!

:unsure:

[cultural_revolutionary]

his followers were under him. he played an important role in the government as the ambassador of cuba. and he changed cuba by fucking everybody in the asshole. and u are a dumbass by picking on the fuckin mistakes i wrote, the point of the whole thing is that ur retarted for believing in che when he wasnt "the superman" he was a fucking totalarianist who didnt do shit to help cuba.

[*Hippie*]

You defended facism in your other thread. So who is your hero? Hitler?

[cultural_revolutionary]

who said my hero was hitler i cleary stated that i believed in some things he did and used them as examples of positive things for a positive fascism. u ignorant shit, u assume hes my hero just because i mentioned him.

[cultural_revolutionary]

i am my own hero

[*Hippie*]

Well, if you think Hitler did some positive things, then Che must have surely done some good things. ;)

[cultural_revolutionary]

im sure hes done a couple good things but overall he fucked cuba in the ass and latin america. overal hitler has fucked the jews in the ass along with other races. but this site is revolutionary left and when u comment its got a pic of che guevara! this forum idolizes him. i dont idolize hitler.

[cultural_revolutionary]

and look at ur signature dumbass. che must mean somthing to u, but u dont know what. u dont know anything about him and u just think oh i saw him on a shirt hes cool i believe in him so im gonna copy a quote from the internet and say i believe in communism, no one will notice that im a fucking ignorant fuckstain

[*Hippie*]

I am starting to learn everyone fucks everyone over and it is pointless trying to find someone who doesn't. :(

[cultural_revolutionary]

so go kill urslelf cuz u have nothing to live for

[*Hippie*]

im gonna copy a quote from the internet and say i believe in communism, no one will notice that im a fucking ignorant fuckstain

You don't know anything about me!

[*Hippie*]

Why do you care so much if people like Che?
What is your problem anyway?

[cultural_revolutionary]

i know enough to know ur a dumbass who doesnt know what they believe in. ur a lost mind who decieded to join the che guevara cult.

[cultural_revolutionary]

so ur saying i shouldnt care. well u care about communism and socialism which is why u are on this forum supporting it.

[*Hippie*]

So calling me a "dumbass" is going to make me change what I believe or take you seriously. Tell me what you believe in, what kind of world you want to live in and maybe I will listen to you.

[cultural_revolutionary]

read my last thread

[*Hippie*]

"[Fascism] could happen in a positive way...that everybody believes in one person. It doesn't matter who the person is or what they're saying."
-Darby Crash

Why does it matter whether that person we all listen to is Che or George Bush or someone else?

[cultural_revolutionary]

beacuse society needs some sort of moral system in order for people to live. and if u favor a cause with morals that dont benifit the people then ur stupid

[cultural_revolutionary]

and fuck george bush

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Don't spam and don't flame.

[*Hippie*]

and if u favor a cause with morals that dont benifit the people then ur stupid

I thought Socialism did, it certainly isn't capitalism.

And I agree, fuck Bush!

[cultural_revolutionary]

what do u mean

[cultural_revolutionary]

(my last post was to Non-Sectarian Bastard!)

[cultural_revolutionary]

I thought Socialism did, it certainly isn't capitalism.


socialism does, che guevara doesnt. he called himself a socialist when he didnt help anyone. he was a hypocratic moron

[*Hippie*]

What bad things did Che do to make you hate him so much?

[RedAnarchist]

Are you a gusano or something?

[*Hippie*]

What's that? :unsure:
I was just bored, I am going back to bed now, good night.

[RedAnarchist]

Gusano (Gusana as well?) = Miami Cuban.

[cultural_revolutionary]

What bad things did Che do to make you hate him so much?


are you that stupid?! whats wrong with your brain this whole fucking thread and everything ive said is why

[RedAnarchist]

Stop with the ad hominem attacks, CR. Debate like a grown up.

[cultural_revolutionary]

homnyms* are words that sound the same but have different meanings. all u che worshipers are fuckin stupid

[*Hippie*]

Gusano (Gusana as well?) = Miami Cuban.

No, I am in Canada. :)

[cormacobear]

I think he was asking cultural rev. if he was a Cuban excile. As stated you haven't named a single negetive outcome of Che's actions. You know terrible facts like: a better Healthcare and education system than most first world nations. Yah, seeing that people have access to schools and dr.s he must be a monster.

You're awefully profane for someone extoling morality.

Ad Hominem is a Latin term so it's probably not in your US dictionary, but I won't insult your intelligince for not knowing. I realize that the richest country in the world is having trouble providing it's people with an education. A reasonable explanation of Ad Hominem attacks, would be; a baseless accusation not founded on real events.

You're your own hero. Now who has a Neitzchesque superman fixation?

But if you actually believe what you're saying provide examples to support your general statements that's how grown ups debate.

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2005, 08:07 AM
u guys believe that ur all communists, and sure u are. but why? you're just communists because uve been indirectly brainwashed by che guevara.
Im a communist, borderline Anarchist, so Anarcho-Communist for now. Why? because it makes more sense than the rest of the crap you've come out with. But as I can tell you have little understanding of political definitions you should probably do a bit of reading before you post here.

Che to me, doesn't mean much, historically he held a lot of implications. And to an extent I admire him more so than many other. People often quote him because they agree with what he said. But at the end of the day he was no more a human than you or me, and I disagree with many aspects of his thinking.

No communist admires Che to the point of worship (well, some weirdoes do) but most of us simply admire his actions along with the actions of many others. Ultimately it is the people, the proletariat that we fight for, a leaderless world, free from exploitation and inequality. Therefor I am offended that you contend the notion that we fight for a figure head. We don't.

As for being brainwashed, am I? Was it my right wing parents that brainwashed me? or perhaps the Catholic School I went to? Maybe it was the Church I went to every sunday? Or the television? oh I know, it was the commercials I saw?

No im not brainwashed, though everything in my youth attempted it. The difference between us is; you accepted the brainwashing as truth, and I spat it out and thought for myself.

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2005, 08:07 AM
that doesnt do shit for a revolution but help fund america's economy and whatever store you bought it from. none of that money goes to che guevara or your "belief" in communism, it helps the democracy stay alive.
It's not a democracy. It's a Republic or (representative Democracy :lol: )

And I personally don't buy Che merchandise, though admittedly I do have some, as it was given to me. The people you refer to as wearing che stuff as a fashion accessory are people we despise greatly. The ones that actually think they are communists we refer to as "Stalin Kiddies" Your anger at them, I feel also. But we are not "Stalin Kiddies" we (being most of the community) understand the ideology of Communism, along with Socialism and Anarchism. and build on it with our own opinions. We often refer back to people in a historical context, che obviously is one of those people.

[RebelOutcast]

I can't believe I'm going to bring myself down to this level but, cultural_revolutionary how old are you? You write like some angry 14-15.
Firstly you need to learn how to spell and use grammar and then you need to come up with an intelligent arguement rather than one that has been brought up over and over again.
In short- Be original, stop conforming.

[cultural_revolutionary]

additives free-


Im a communist, borderline Anarchist, so Anarcho-Communist for now. Why? because it makes more sense than the rest of the crap you've come out with. But as I can tell you have little understanding of political definitions you should probably do a bit of reading before you post here.

"because it makes more sense than the rest of the crap you've come out with." what crap are u talking about? oligarchy? democracy? the fuedal heirarchy?

"you should probobly do a bit of reading before you post here" where do u think i got all the info from the thread? do u think i pulled it out of my ass?


I am offended that you contend the notion that we fight for a figure head

i never once said anything about you fighting for a figure head


And I personally don't buy Che merchandise, though admittedly I do have some, as it was given to me

why would u accept it if it had been paid for and it was going against ur goal of achieving socialism in the US or whatever u want.


The difference between us is; you accepted the brainwashing as truth, and I spat it out and thought for myself. bull shit. im a fucking fascist! how do u get brainwashed from the media or church or parents into becoming a fascist. i have actually sta down and thought about my beliefs many times and decided what i believed and debated with myself and other people on what government would be best. in the end i came up with fascism.


cormacobear-


You're your own hero. Now who has a Neitzchesque superman fixation
i don't have a Nietzshe superman fixation, i believe i am an individual who has come up with their own conclusions on life rather than accepthing things the way society wants me to accept them so therefore i dont need a hero except myself.



Rebel0utcast-

how dare you. whats the difference what my age is. i am a realist and i believe if u can read what i wrote and u know what i am saying, then there isnt really a problem i can spell things lke ths if i wntd and u'd stll undrstnd so shut ur ass up.

[KC]

Maybe you should do a bit of reading on this matter before you jump to such baseless conclusions. Go to your library and rent "My Friend Che" by Ricardo Rojo. It is a book written by someone that knew him personally. Maybe you'll learn that Che wasn't horrible and he didn't "fuck anyone in the ass".

If anyone ever asked me if I had a hero or someone that I look up to, I'd have to say Che. Everybody should look up to him; he was the most determined, selfless person I've heard of.

[*REVOLUCIÓN*]

You know what , CR ?
I can´t really bother to spend time arguing with you
, cause you can´t argue at all. Because arguing means bringing
forth an argument, which you don´t do.
And the only thing that you do is to be vulgar and offending.
Yes, there are some peolpe who think their really IN when they have che
on their shirt and plaster their wall with his face. And I agree
those people haven´t got a clue in what che believed in, but
the most or possibly nearly all on this site aren´t like that.
Ah, yes and I agree with : FUCK BUSH !

[*REVOLUCIÓN*]

Sorry for this double-post !

You´re absolutely right , Lazar !!!!!!!
I couldn´t have put it better !

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2005, 11:03 AM



what crap are u talking about? oligarchy? democracy? the fuedal heirarchy?

Democracy isn't crap, its the basis of communism. Though yes, the rest of the above are crap (and antidemocratic)


where do u think i got all the info from the thread? do u think i pulled it out of my ass?

Honestly? yes. If you called that "information" then you have a problem. It's mostly "misinformation. So it might be out of your ass, or from right wing sources, which are mostly the same thing.


i never once said anything about you fighting for a figure head

Your argument was based on the idea that we all bum and worship Che. Not true. What other arguments do you have?


why would u accept it if it had been paid for and it was going against ur goal of achieving socialism in the US or whatever u want.

For many reasons. Appreciation. And also, even if I didn't accept it, the company has already made the money from it weather I wear it or not, so I might as well use it. Regardless of what I do, I am FORCED to consume. I grow my own food, and boycott large brands, but that's it, I still have to purchase some goods because I don't have access to the means of production. Therefor your notion that buying things is anti-communist is pointless, because we're forced to.


bull shit. im a fucking fascist! how do u get brainwashed from the media or church or parents into becoming a fascist

Fascists do what they're told. Because you forget, Fascism isn't necessarily about YOU ruling. Its about someone ruling. So for the purpose of this argument I will be a fascist, and I order you to shut the fuck up.

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2005, 11:03 AM
or whatever u want.

Just though I'd put emphasis on this quote....you actually admit you don't know what we fight for, thus you don't understand our ideology, or our individual ways of thinking.

Dumbass. Don't fight against something until you understand it. I have more respect for the other capitalists on this board than you, at least they make sense.

As far as I can see your some rage-full-kiddy who hates people wearing Che T-Shirts and worshiping him, and took it out on real communists, and socialists only to get an intellectual ass whooping.

[Invader Zim]

I loved your critique, but please don't expect me to take you seriously when you write a message in the same manner you would write a text message on your mobile phone.

[Moral_Imbalance]

Dumbass. Don't fight against something until you understand it.
hmm...this seems a bit hipicryitical maybe not of u but of others on this fourm....in any case che has become a pop-sham many buy the shirts and images and think"Hey i got che on my shirt/backpack/wall....im a rebel!"

[Oldergod]

im an american so i should know how to argue with him


cultural revolutionary your a fuckin idiot

[Organic Revolution]

fascism? that is a great idea... so was the holocaust right?

[Oldergod]

yea the holocaust was cool...made a few good movies too

[Mayhem]

Che was consistently beaten in anything like a fair fight. He fought with the cannibalistic Simba's in the Congo, who at the time were killing, raping and murdering any European they could find. They came up against Mad Mike Hoare, and his numerically infefior force... and what did Che do? Turned tail and ran.

Is this any hero to have? A revolutionary who couldn't even fight.

[Oldergod]

so your saying you seen these events first hand?

[Moral_Imbalance]

so your saying you seen these events first hand?

ah.......the ever useful cyinicism.....history cant truly be know so your using this as a shield from critical anylasis.....

[Mayhem]

Err... no. Unfortunately, I didn't get a chance to shoot Che.

[Moral_Imbalance]

I must admit the people on here seem to worship che.......

[Mayhem]

They all just get a hard on when they see him. He was photogenic, and that's about it.

[OleMarxco]

Wow. Big deal. The "Che Guevara"-cult. Seems like you've got us all pinned out, Cultural Revolutionary. I'm so framed now, I'm gonna have to go do a long bath to get rid of the "Che"-stench on me dirt-ay boday of'ah'rahl! :lol:

And I don't even worship him as mutch as give him a few nods of general principle. Bah. He's a dead-guy, whatever can a bunch of followers of a long gone guy do, anyways? Is it a threath to you, since you even bothered? And what the hell do it have to do with Communism...when I say, kill your fuckin' heroes and wake up to the true ideology that is...Commune-ism! ;)

P.S., Trying not to offend him, this guy, is to give him an attitude he doesn&#39; deserve <_< Plus, Che had a bad caugh and some real nasty-arse Astma, how the hell do you expect a guy like him to fight&#33;? In all his odds, he surely wouldn&#39;t have become a fighter, much-less a revolutionary&#33; Yet he did it, and so can we&#33; HAH&#33; :P

[Oldergod]

your the one pointing out how he "ran away" and "he got beat up" and "he cant fight" and whatever...well...you got video to prove he cant fight? cause last time i remembered he took cuba over with fidel...so fidel did it all by himself and che just decided to take credit?

shut the fuck up moron

[danny android]

Wow yeah I wish that some people (cultural revolutionary*cough*) would actually give a valid argument. Use real information. Use examples. And maybe even cite the information they give us. If you could even give us any information to prove you point.

The only thing that i have heard out of you is that che has had anal sex with a bunch of latino people. So che spread a bunch of STDs and this is why you hate him? Or do you just have something against ass sex? Don&#39;t like to have your shit pushed is that it? I&#39;m sorry but if you make comments like that all that you going to get in response is a big FUCK YOU DUMB ASS.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2005, 08:19 PM
Che was consistently beaten in anything like a fair fight. He fought with the cannibalistic Simba&#39;s in the Congo, who at the time were killing, raping and murdering any European they could find. They came up against Mad Mike Hoare, and his numerically infefior force... and what did Che do? Turned tail and ran.

Is this any hero to have? A revolutionary who couldn&#39;t even fight.
A fair fight? Ahaha&#33;

You crack me up.

Guevara used time honoured and extablished tactics used for millenia. Owain Glyndwr, Llewelyn ap Gruffydd, to name a couple of of very skilled tacticians and warriors who used similar tactics.

Indeed in Spain, these tactics beat Napoleon, one of the greatest tactitions in recorded history.

In short, you really don&#39;t know what you are talking about do you? In war people who try and fight fair, die young, if your going to fight, fight to win, not to play &#39;nice&#39;.

[TheBarroomHero]

Wow, just because I am on this board obviously means I own che merchandise. CR must be way into everyone being the same, considering he is a fascist.

By they way every good warrior knows when they are going to be beaten. Do you really think if we would&#39;ve gone into battle and gotten all his soldiers killed would we all be saying he is someone to look up to?

[Mayhem]

Fuck it, i&#39;ll post the entire article.

I&#39;ve researched this extensively, and the article&#39;s claims seem to be verified.

Mike Tyson used to end fights with his arms upraised in triumph. Then he got a Che Guevara tattoo. Now he ends fights on the ground, a bloodied mess, battered and bowed, pounded almost beyond recognition. Lennox Lewis didn&#39;t just defeat him, he stomped him. It was a hideous thing to watch, even if you loathe Mike Tyson.
Tyson was jinxed by that Che tattoo. There&#39;s no other explanation. Somebody should have enlightened mighty Mike about the real Che Guevara.

Che was hell on smiting his enemies, all right – thousands of them – but only when they were bound, gagged and blindfolded. I&#39;m afraid the Boxing Federation doesn&#39;t allow that. In anything like a fair fight Che was consistently routed, stomped and humiliated.

Ineptitude in combat defined Che Guevara. In every conflict he was pounded like a gong. When he whimpered to his American-trained captors in Bolivia, "Don&#39;t shoot – I&#39;m Che&#33; I&#39;m worth more to you alive than dead&#33;" he had a point.

We blew it by not kidnapping him from the Bolivians in time and using him the way Luddendorff used Lenin in WWI. Recall that the Germans shipped Lenin through their lines into Russia "like a sealed bacillus" (in Churchill&#39;s phrase) to infect the Russian army, to demoralize and incapacitate it, thereby shutting down the Eastern front.

It worked like a charm. The mighty Che, air-dropped into Vietnam&#39;s Central Highlands with bundles of his "Lessons in Guerrilla War" in October 1968, would have crippled the V.C. worse than 10 Operation Rolling Thunders.


We&#39;d have had the boys home by Christmas. No Tet. No Cambodian invasion. Upon graduating from Che&#39;s Academy of Guerrilla War, the V.C. would have become black-Pajama&#39;d Beavis and Butt-heads. In a month they&#39;d all be bedraggled and lost, starving and bickering, enraging the peasants, blundering into ambush after ambush.

We&#39;d have cleaned house in two months, maybe even without employing the firepower and cojones of Al "To Hell and Back" Gore.

Actually, I dream here. Halfway through the first page of Che&#39;s legendary book, the V.C. would have impaled Che on pungi sticks as a CIA agent – a very stupid one, trying a transparent ruse to get them all killed.

Cuban-American fighters who faced Che at the Bay of Pigs and later in the Congo still laugh. The Bay of Pigs invasion plan included a ruse where a little boat packing a huge fireworks show and tape recording of battle sounds landed in extreme western Cuba as a diversion.

Sure enough, the wily Che immediately recognized this as an Anzio-type "second front." He snapped on his holster, cocked his beret at just the right angle, scowled for the camera and rushed over with a few thousand troops. He spent the whole battle there. It was the only thing in the invasion that went according to plan.

Later, many of these Cuban-American BOP vets itched to get back into the fight (but with ammo and air cover this time). The CIA obliged and sent them with ex-marine Rip Robertson to the Congo in &#39;65. There they linked up with the legendary mercenary "Mad Mike" Hoare and his "Wild Geese."

Here&#39;s Mike Hoare&#39;s opinion, after watching them in battle, of the men routinely smeared by the Beltway media as cheap Mafiosi, bumblers and cowards, of the outfit the Church Commission and Clinton regime disparaged and emasculated: "These Cuban-CIA men were as tough, dedicated and impetuous a group of soldiers as I&#39;ve ever had the honor of commanding. Their leader [Rip Robertson] was the most extraordinary and dedicated soldier I&#39;ve ever met."


Saved From Cannibals

Together Mad Mike, Rip and the Cubans made short work of the alternately Chinese- and Soviet-backed "Simbas" of Laurent Kabila, who were murdering, raping and munching (many were cannibals) their way through the defenseless Europeans still left in the recently abandoned Belgian colony.

Forget Frank Church and the Clintonites. Ask the hundreds of Europeans rescued from butchery (literally&#33;) by these men. You&#39;ll hear a different song, believe me. You can read about their exploits in Hoare&#39;s book, "Congo Mercenary," and in Enrique Ros&#39; "Cubanos Combatientes" (sadly, available only in Spanish).

Kabila made Idi Amin look like Gandhi. Castro, itching to be rid of this nuisance, sent Che (code-named "Tatu") and a force of his rebel army "veterans" to help these cannibals. The Congolese reds, unfamiliar with Che&#39;s true record, accepted Tatu gratefully.

The masterful "Tatu&#39;s" first order of business was plotting an attack on a garrison guarding a hydroelectric plant in a place called Front Bendela on the Kimbi River in Eastern Congo. His masterstroke was to be an elaborate ambush of the garrison.

The wily Tatu was stealthily leading his force into position when they heard shots. Whoops&#33; ... Hey?&#33; WHAT THE?&#33; Ambushers became ambushed – and by the same garrison he thought was guarding the plant. Che lost half his men and barely escaped with his life.


Some Ally

His African allies started frowning a little more closely at Tatu&#39;s c.v. and asking a few questions. (But in Swahili, which he didn&#39;t understand.)

Thing was, any teen gang member in East L.A. or south Bronx has 10 times the battle experience and savvy of any of these strutting Fidelista "Comandantes." Imagine the Germans atop Monte Cassino outnumbering and outgunning the Allies 10 to 1 in early &#39;44. Hell, they&#39;d STILL be there. It was a defender&#39;s dream.

Well, the brilliant Tatu and his comandantes had that very set-up in a place called Fizi-Baraka in Eastern Congo for their second clash with the mad dogs of imperialism. Mad Mike and his CIA allies sized the place up and attacked. Within one day the mighty Che&#39;s entire force was scrambling away in panic, throwing away their arms, running and screaming like old ladies with rats running up their legs.


Teen &#39;Rebels&#39;

One of the most hilarious and enduring hoaxes of the 20th century was the "war" fought by dauntless Che and the Castro rebels against Batista. But I hear it was a kick – a fun way for adolescents to harass adults, loot, rustle a few cows, and play army on weekends with real guns, maybe even getting off a few shots, usually into the air.

What 17- or 18-year-old male could resist? Petty delinquency became not just altruism here, but downright heroism. How many punks get such a window of glory? Normally these stunts land you in reform school. In Cuba in 1958 it might get your picture in the New York Times:

"Comandante Humberto &#39;El Guapo&#39; Fontova shown here relaxing with a bottle of rum and a grateful senorita after smiting the Fascist hordes of the Tyrant Batista in the ferocious Battle of Santa Clara, described by senior correspondent Herbert Matthews as &#39;bloodier than Stalingrad&#33;&#39; "

Here&#39;s an insider account of one such "battle," from "Comandante" William Morgan as recounted to Paul Bethel after the glorious victory. Bethel was press attaché in Cuba&#39;s U.S. Embassy in 1959. It&#39;s in Bethel&#39;s superb and meticulously researched book "The Losers":

"We had a helluva time, Paul&#33; We used a short-wave radio to broadcast the battle. Eloy and I yelled fake battle commands into the mike while a few of the muchachos shot BARs and pistols into the air for the sound effects. We really whooped it up&#33;"

Here&#39;s another insider account from Bethel&#39;s book about a "famous battle." This one features Che the Lionhearted himself and his invincible "Column" on their Long March through Las Villas province:

"Guevara&#39;s column shuffled right into the U.S. agricultural experimental station in Camaguey. Guevara asked manager Joe McGuire to have a man take a package to Batista&#39;s military commander in the city. The package contained &#036;100,000 with a note. Guevara&#39;s men moved through the province almost within sight of uninterested Batista troops."

This was part of the famous "Battle of Santa Clara" where Che "Blood &#39;n&#39; Guts" Guevara earned his eternal fame. Skip Dave Barry one Sunday and instead read the New York Times version of this historic military engagement. You&#39;ll laugh louder. Here&#39;s the headline in that "Newspaper of Record" for Jan 4, 1959 (and, like Barry, I swear I&#39;m not making this up):

"One Thousand Killed in 5 days of Fierce Street Fighting&#33; .... Commander Che Guevara appealed to Batista troops for a truce to clear the streets of casualties&#33; ... Guevara turned the tide in this bloody battle and whipped a Batista force of 3,000 men&#33;"


Funnier Than Geraldo

We laugh at Geraldo Rivera&#39;s buffooneries in Afghanistan. Hell, next to NYT reporters, Geraldo looks like Ernie Pyle.

To give them credit, most of Castro&#39;s comandantes knew their Batista war had been a gaudy clown show. After the glorious victory, they were content to run down and execute the few Batista men motivated enough to shoot back (most of these were of humble background), settle into the mansions stolen from Batistianos, and enjoy the rest of their booty.

Che&#39;s pathological power of self-delusion wouldn&#39;t allow him to do this. And he paid the price.

Statistically speaking, a nocturnal stroll through Central Park offers more peril than Castro&#39;s rebels faced from the dreaded army of the beastly Fulgencio Batista. According to Bethel, the U.S. Embassy was a little skeptical about all the battlefield bloodshed and heroics and investigated. They ran down every reliable lead and eyewitness account of what the New York Times called a "bloody civil war with thousands dead in single battles&#33;"

They found that in the countryside, in those two years of "ferocious" battles, the total casualties on BOTH sides actually ran to 182. New Orleans has an annual murder rate DOUBLE that.

Alas, the Viet Cong took its lessons from guerrilla leaders who – get this, Che groupies – actually fought in a guerrilla war. Yes, where people shoot back and everything. Che eventually tried his hand at this novelty and ... well, we saw what happened. He was run out of Africa with his tail between his legs in months. Then in Bolivia he and his merry band of bumblers was betrayed, encircled and decimated in short order.


Dissed by Mao

Real guerrillas had Che&#39;s number. Mao refused to see him when he visited China. He had him cool his heels in a reception room for two hours, then stood him up. He knew.

Che the Lionhearted&#39;s image is still ubiquitous on college campuses. But in the wrong places. He belongs in the marketing, PR, advertising – and especially – psychology departments. His lessons and history are fascinating and valuable, but only in light of Sigmund Freud or P.T. Barnum. One born every minute, Mr. Barnum? If only you&#39;d lived to see the Che phenomenon. Actually, 10 are born every second.

Here&#39;s a "guerrilla hero" who in real life never fought in a guerrilla war. When he finally brushed up against one, he was routed.

Here&#39;s a cold-blooded murderer who executed thousands without trial, who claimed that judicial evidence was an "unnecessary bourgeois detail," who stressed that "revolutionaries must become cold-killing machines motivated by pure hate," who stayed up till dawn for months at a time signing death warrants for innocent and honorable men, whose office in La Cabana had a window where he could watch the executions – and today his T-shirts adorn people who oppose capital punishment&#33;


&#39;Greens&#39; Love This Polluter

Here&#39;s communist Cuba&#39;s first "Minister of Industries," whose main slogan in 1960 was "Accelerated Industrialization&#33;" Whose dream was converting Cuba (the hemisphere, actually) into a huge bureaucratic-industrial ant farm – and he&#39;s the poster boy for greens and anarchists who scream and rant against industrialization&#33;

Here&#39;s a sniveling little suck-up, teacher&#39;s pet and momma&#39;s boy who was the constant pride of joy of his teacher (Alberto Bayo) and parents (the most obnoxious sort of Limousine Bolsheviks) – and he&#39;s idolized by millionaire delinquents such as Rage Against the Machine&#33;

Here&#39;s a humorless teetotaler, a plodding paper-pusher, a notorious killjoy and all-around fuddy-duddy – and you see his T-shirt on MTV&#39;s Spring Break revelers&#33;

Perhaps competent psychologists (if any exist) will explain this some day.

Che excelled in one thing: mass murder of defenseless men. He was a Stalinist to the core, a plodding bureaucrat and a calm, cold-blooded – but again, never in actual battle – killer. And there was an actual method to this murderous madness.

Recall that in 1940 Stalin&#39;s commissars rounded up the Polish officer corps, herded them into the Katyn Forest and slaughtered them to a man. Stalin didn&#39;t want any Polish contras messing up his plans. These officers would have led them. So his men dug a huge mass grave and lined up the Polish officers. The Russian pistol barrels went up against the backs of the necks:

POW&#33; ... Thump. Fifteen thousand shots later the deed was done and the dirt replaced. Any contra problem was nipped in the bud.

Che followed suit in Cuba. As a communist flunky in Guatemala he&#39;d seen the Guatemalan officer corps rise up against the communist Arbenz government in &#39;54. (And you pinko professors, please stifle the noise about Arbenz as a harmless "social democrat" and "nationalist" victimized by the fiendish United Fruit Co., OK? When ousted, Arbenz sought refuge in Czechoslovakia, not Sweden.)


Beloved Mass Murderer

Anyway, Che didn&#39;t want a repeat in Cuba. Upon entering Havana in January &#39;59 he started rounding up all army officers. Then – FUEGO&#33;&#33; – his firing squads got busy. Real busy. By his own count, Che sent 2,500 men to "the wall."

The "Cuban Katyn," I call this slaughter. The reds called these executed men "war criminals" and the Beltway press naturally parroted the charge. Nothing new there.


The New York Times&#39; (Pulitzer Prize-winning, no less) reporter Walter Duranty had parroted Stalin and Beria&#39;s charges against the victims of the 1930s show trials, too. Later, they, along with Chris Dodd, Ted Kennedy and Tip O&#39;Neill, labeled Nicaragua&#39;s contras "war criminals." But today Nicaragua is free because of them.

Che&#39;s true legacy is simply one of terror and murder. That dreaded midnight knock. Wives and daughters screaming in rage and panic as Che&#39;s goons drag off their dads and husbands – that&#39;s the real Che legacy.

Desperate crowds of weeping daughters and shrieking mothers clubbed with rifle butts outside La Cabana as Che&#39;s firing squads murder their dads and sons inside – that&#39;s the real Che legacy.

Thousands of heroes yelling "Viva Cuba Libre&#33;" and "Viva Christo Rey&#33;" before firing squads of murderous drunks whom they&#39;d have stomped in open battle – that&#39;s the real Che legacy.

Secret graves and crude boxes with bullet-riddled corpses delivered to ashen-faced loved ones – that&#39;s the real Che legacy.

And let&#39;s not forget the craven "Don&#39;t shoot – I&#39;m Che&#33; I&#39;m worth more to you live than dead&#33;" (Then why didn&#39;t he save his last bullet for himself?) Perhaps the defiant yells of the men he murdered actually affected Che the Lionhearted?


By 1960 he started ordering that his victims&#39; mouths be taped shut. Perhaps there was a trace of human emotion in this icy dolt after all? Genuine bravery and defiance unnerved him.

When the wheels of justice finally turned, Che was revealed as unworthy to carry his victims&#39; slop buckets. He learned nothing from their bravery. He could only beg for his life. So yes, the craven request when cornered in Bolivia is also the real Che legacy.

So anyway, friends, I hope you&#39;ll excuse all the champagne corks that popped in Cuban-American households back in October 1967 when we got the wonderful news. Yes, our own compatriots serving proudly in the U.S. Special Forces had helped track down the murderous, cowardly and epically stupid little weasel named Che Guevara in Bolivia. Then he got a major dose of his own medicine.


Justice has never been better served

[Guerrilla22]

none of u know shit about che guevara.

Oh really? So everyone on this site knows nothing at all about Che?

[TheBarroomHero]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2005, 09:17 PM

Tyson was jinxed by that Che tattoo.
That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.


P.S. Making massive posts doesn&#39;t make you smart.

[workersunity]

we all know that che was mislead into believing it was a socialist revolution, but he directly cared for the people, he wanted the people to have a better life, totalitarian, now that is funny. you really dont know anything about che, and secondly you said we all came to communism because of che shirts, well i didnt know about che for like a year after i was a communist

[cultural_revolutionary]

he directly cared for the people

he set up pretty much a fucking concentration camp tell me how that cares for the people. he was a right winger who only wanted the healthy people who could help him to be there

[cultural_revolutionary]

and u say it like its the thought that counts. no its not the thought doesnt mean shit. when you actually do something then it counts. if i said i was gonna start a revolution, it wouldnt mean shit to u until i did something.

[Phalanx]

Why has Mayhem not yet been restricted?

[red_orchestra]

Well well, Cultural Revolutionary... see that you like to bash those who believe in strong socialism. Common, I mean if you really think that people like me joined Che-lives or Socialist parties because of Che t-shirts your one fucked up dude. The truth is that I have always been a leftist, and have been very active politically. I&#39;ve seen some pretty horriable things through my travels and its mostly around greed, money, power..etc. Exploitation is everywhere and its growing. Those big box stores...MacDonalds, Shell, WalMart, GAP, Old Navy are ruthless companies and they need to stop their abuse of workers around the globe.
I see that the world needs a strong jolt to get it working properly, especially those in the "land of the free"... fuck off America,

[Moral_Imbalance]

and u say it like its the thought that counts. no its not the thought doesnt mean shit. when you actually do something then it counts. if i said i was gonna start a revolution, it wouldnt mean shit to u until i did something.

I think this applies here .......

"Dont tell me, Show me........If you Cant show me, dont begin to tell me....."

[cultural_revolutionary]

see that you like to bash those who believe in strong socialism

i believe in a socialist fascism

[RedStarMilitia]

You call us ignorant yet you know nothing about or personal beliefs or how we live our lives, so your simply an ignorant judge. You judge all leftists as people who all wear militant gear, yes some do but not all.
you seem arogant because you think you know what you are talking about and act as if you know everything about Che.
I admit Che&#39;s face has been subject to fashion but as indepth as we are we do not need t-shirts to teach us the history of a man and as radical as we are we will not simply be brainwashed by an image.
Che was a person who fought for what he/we believe(d) in and it could have been anyone, we will still follow.
Che is not the only influence for our beliefs, you forget Lenin, Marx, Engels etc. Yes I&#39;m unAmerican, i refuse to listen to an idiot that thinks there is a language called "mexican" and if you follow him you are ignorant and a terrorist by my account.
you talk about che being a contradiction but you follow BUSH&#33; the "born again christian" who slays women and children, innocent men defending their homeland for oil and sends people to the electric chair, many of them black. Don&#39;t judge me........
FUCK YOU, FUCK BUSH

[RedStarMilitia]

We will show you the revolution, we are not haphazard like facism, it cant happen over night, we know that, we will bide our time, get it right, we are prepairing. Just wait. trying a revolution will mean getting the masses, which can be hard with ignorant people like facists.
doing something now will achieve nothing, it is a revolution, not booking a holiday.

[tambourine_man]

i&#39;ll try not to offend...


u guys believe that ur all communists, and sure u are. but why? you&#39;re just communists because uve been indirectly brainwashed by che guevara. u just believe in him cuz uve seen the fucking shirts sold at the malls and all the fuckin conformists who dont even know who he is wearing a shirt with his face on it.
we&#39;ve been indirectly brainwashed by che because we have seen people wearing shirts with his image on them? is that really what you mean?


you&#39;ve all made him friedrich nietzsche&#39;s "superman."
pointless allusions to philosophical concepts don&#39;t strengthen your absurd argument. especially if the reference is equally absurd.


you dont believe in yourselves anymore your just following him cuz ur all too sheltered and its something new. ooo communism its un american your some fucking rebel now. and u buy merchendice with his face on it. that doesnt do shit for a revolution but help fund america&#39;s economy and whatever store you bought it from. none of that money goes to che guevara or your "belief" in communism, it helps the democracy stay alive. its all bull shit and none of u realize it.
i&#39;ve lost my motivation to respond, sorry


Che guevara was a fucking totalarianist who spread brutal totalarianism throughout latin america. he didnt achieve anything but disaster. and u say fuck u fascist u dont know what ur talking about. i know exactly what i&#39;m talking about, none of you do. Che guevara was freedoms fuckin rival. he established a fucking unjust social system but the ignorant "lefties" turned him into an idol who believed in freedom where everyone was happy. bull shit. no one was happy under che. he set up a labor camp wich eventually turned into a place where they killed gays and the sick and people who didnt fit in. nobody was equal under che. it wasnt communism, its the negative fascism wich u all dispise. none of u know shit about che guevara.
i suggest:
- you read some books by/about che
- actually, i suggest you read some books, period.
- you evaluate the impact that the revolution in cuba (of which che was an important part of) had on the life of the average cuban citizen with an unbiased mind
- you evaluate the degree of dedication that this one man had to the communist ideals (i.e. enough dedication to renounce his own position in the cuban government so that he would be able to more freely and actively pursue worldwide revolution).
- you hereafter refrain from making such nonsense posts.

actually, i&#39;m not completely sure that this guy is for real. again, i try not to offend, but, judging by the level of idiocy of his posts and his extreme immaturity in responding to others, he might just be doing this as a joke to spam the boards and hurt the reputation of the forums. just a thought.

also,
Mayhem, you should read Che&#39;s The African Dream to get an idea of the difficulties he and his men faced (circumstances beyond his control). or if you want, i can explain, but it would probably do you well to find out for yourself.

[Anarchist Freedom]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2005, 04:07 AM
u guys believe that ur all communists, and sure u are. but why? you&#39;re just communists because uve been indirectly brainwashed by che guevara. u just believe in him cuz uve seen the fucking shirts sold at the malls and all the fuckin conformists who dont even know who he is wearing a shirt with his face on it. you&#39;ve all made him friedrich nietzsche&#39;s "superman." you dont believe in yourselves anymore your just following him cuz ur all too sheltered and its something new. ooo communism its un american your some fucking rebel now. and u buy merchendice with his face on it. that doesnt do shit for a revolution but help fund america&#39;s economy and whatever store you bought it from. none of that money goes to che guevara or your "belief" in communism, it helps the democracy stay alive. its all bull shit and none of u realize it. Che guevara was a fucking totalarianist who spread brutal totalarianism throughout latin america. he didnt achieve anything but disaster. and u say fuck u fascist u dont know what ur talking about. i know exactly what i&#39;m talking about, none of you do. Che guevara was freedoms fuckin rival. he established a fucking unjust social system but the ignorant "lefties" turned him into an idol who believed in freedom where everyone was happy. bull shit. no one was happy under che. he set up a labor camp wich eventually turned into a place where they killed gays and the sick and people who didnt fit in. nobody was equal under che. it wasnt communism, its the negative fascism wich u all dispise. none of u know shit about che guevara.
Dude paragraphs.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

no one was happy under che.

I&#39;m willing to bet the ladies were. ;)


i believe in a socialist fascism

Oxymoron.*

(* Any minute now I expect Professor Moneybags to come in and say &#39;no you&#39;re wrong, communism is slavery blah blah blah&#39;)

[cultural_revolutionary]

its not an oxymoron its centralized. its not left wing or right wing, its the bird itself.

[Guerrilla22]

Someone please close this bullshit.

[cultural_revolutionary]

bull shit? whats wrong with u, it sounds like ur shutting out what i have to say, you&#39;re afraid of the truth

[C_Rasmussen]

No you&#39;re just being an ass about it and you&#39;re not using any good reasoning behind any of what you&#39;re saying. Yeah I have read all your posts in this thread so I know what I am talking about.

[Taiga]

Originally posted by cultural_[email protected] 30 2005, 11:07 AM
he set up a labor camp wich eventually turned into a place where they killed gays and the sick and people who didnt fit in.
You forgot about AIDS-infected ;)

[danny android]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 03:13 AM
its not an oxymoron its centralized.
It is an oxymoron my man. Socialism is the only system in which the people truly rule and SHOULD be a very democratic system in nature. Facism is a totalitarion dictatorship, the two don&#39;t mix together. I mean the greatest form of democracy and the most discusting despotism that i can even think of don&#39;t mix together. You are critisizing che because you believe that he was toltalitarion. How much more toltalitarion can you get than facist?

Seriously dude i want to understand how you think the system should work. But i can&#39;t understand anything you are saying. Please explain in a way that people might actually listen to and please don&#39;t be a dick about it. That gets you no where. But seriously explain your view I want to atleast understand where you are comming from.

[cultural_revolutionary]

danny u should read my last thread

[Forward Union]

its not an oxymoron its centralized. its not left wing or right wing, its the bird itself.

Fascist-Socialism doesn&#39;t really make sense when you look at Socialism as the idea that the worlds resources should be distributed on a democratic basis, and not by market principals. And Fascism is where all the resources are distributed according to a dictator or ruling class...its pretty much a paradox.

And every system fits into a left or right category based on how many freedoms the system grants. (well maybe that&#39;s over simplified but still). It&#39;s not possible for something to be "the bird itself" that just a laughable notion. "The Bird itself" would encompass the entire political spectrum, and would fail to exist on self-contradictory terms in the same way that you cannot have a cubic sphere. "The Bird itself" is just another was of saying &#39;the political spectrum&#39; and if you support that as a system...then you have a very messed up head.

Anyway boy, I was looking forward to you actually replying to my last post. If it doesn&#39;t keep you up too far past you bed time could you do so?

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 04:36 AM
bull shit? whats wrong with u, it sounds like ur shutting out what i have to say, you&#39;re afraid of the truth
You&#39;ve lost every point you&#39;ve brought up. So your clearly not the great purveyor of truth that you consider yourself to be. :D

[*REVOLUCIÓN*]

some stupid little weasel named Che Guevara

How dare you ?
I read quite a lot of things about Che Guevara and not
only the nice stuff . Maybe Che had quite a few killed,
but what sort of people ? They were mostly some sceming traitors or double-crossers.
What sort of pathetic politician leaves those in power or even alive ?
And who do you think you are calling Che not brave ?
So why did he go to Boivia then ? Resigning his post as head of the national bank ?
Whas that some brilliantly staged plot, so that people would remember him ?
If it was; you have to at least give him credit for his impeccible foresight &#33;

[Forward Union]

Originally posted by *REVOLUCIÓN*@Jul 1 2005, 12:19 PM
How dare you ?
I recommend you Ignore him, he&#39;s welcome to debate here, but so far the content of his "arguments" have been appalling. My only hope is that he is open minded and is listening to what we have to say.

It is through criticism that we better ourselves.

As for Che killing people, so what?. He had people killed that were oppressive exploitative fascists, who had enough blood on their own hands to warrant their deaths. They were criminals in every sense of the word, and deserved to die.

He didn&#39;t demonise any ethnic group, or pursue racial hatred toward them. He simply ordered the death of Capitalist criminals, and If I were in his place, I may have done the same.

[Che1990]

Oh so it&#39;s us communists who&#39;ve started making Che t-shirts and selling them to fund the capitalist market? Did it ever occur to you that it might have been the capitalists? And I don&#39;t think you have any reasonable grounds to rip the piss out of Che when you sympathise with some of Hitler&#39;s decisons.

[bed_of_nails]

I just would like to point out to all the reactionaries here screaming "Che was a coward for killing those unarmed people&#33;", that the US Military is doing the same in Iraq yet you seem to think they particularly brave.

Personally, I think it is far braver if your enemies at least have the same level of weaponry.

[restin256]

I really agree with tamborine_man. Nobody could be that stupid, and if I were anybody here I wouldn&#39;t take baseless arguments as sereously as everyone is taking them.

I understand the idea that kids running around in malls wearing Che shirts because it&#39;s cool is stupid. I sympathise with that part, but not all of us are like that, man. ;)

[Anarcho-Communist]

He only did what was right, if that meant killing others that are un-armed to protect himself. He fought with the Julio 26 for a better Cuba. So no DON&#39;T fuck Ernesto Rafael "Che" Guevara de la Serna Lynch.

[MeTaLhEaD]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2005, 02:07 AM
u guys believe that ur all communists, and sure u are. but why? you&#39;re just communists because uve been indirectly brainwashed by che guevara. u just believe in him cuz uve seen the fucking shirts sold at the malls and all the fuckin conformists who dont even know who he is wearing a shirt with his face on it. you&#39;ve all made him friedrich nietzsche&#39;s "superman." you dont believe in yourselves anymore your just following him cuz ur all too sheltered and its something new. ooo communism its un american your some fucking rebel now. and u buy merchendice with his face on it. that doesnt do shit for a revolution but help fund america&#39;s economy and whatever store you bought it from. none of that money goes to che guevara or your "belief" in communism, it helps the democracy stay alive. its all bull shit and none of u realize it. Che guevara was a fucking totalarianist who spread brutal totalarianism throughout latin america. he didnt achieve anything but disaster. and u say fuck u fascist u dont know what ur talking about. i know exactly what i&#39;m talking about, none of you do. Che guevara was freedoms fuckin rival. he established a fucking unjust social system but the ignorant "lefties" turned him into an idol who believed in freedom where everyone was happy. bull shit. no one was happy under che. he set up a labor camp wich eventually turned into a place where they killed gays and the sick and people who didnt fit in. nobody was equal under che. it wasnt communism, its the negative fascism wich u all dispise. none of u know shit about che guevara.
hahahah ur banned