The Socialist Transition

[Cooler Reds Will Prevail]

People often comment about how the USSR had become corrupted, was not on the road to Communism, etc. What I'm wondering is, under Marxist theory, how long should this transition period last and if it is for a long time, would it really be positive to use the term "transition period"? One thing I always tell people is that I do not expect Communism to come about in my lifetime, or the lifetime of my children, but it is something to be worked toward. I know nobody can really give a definite time amount, but (assuming the entire world has just transitioned to Socialism from Capitalism, hypothetically) approximately how long do you think Socialism would be necessary before society is shaped into a model conducive to Communism?

[JazzRemington]

How long would it take to get from SOcialism to Communism (in Marxist terms)? No one knows. Hell, not even Marx knew.

But the way I figure it, see how long it takes Capitalism to get to Socialism, and that may be a good guide, which, yes, is waaaaaaay to fucking long to begin with.

[Oldergod]

lets try to get the revolution started first and then we'll think about what to do afterwards

[Roses in the Hospital]

How ever long it takes to educate the masses for their new role and have the nation industrially progresssed to such a level where communism should be sustainable, as well as how ever long it takes to have the revolution spread so as the socialist society has support for trade, defence etc. (Although under traditional Marxism the second point, as well as perhaps the first should already be achieved before the revolution...)

So, to sum up, nobody knows...

[Sir Aunty Christ]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2005, 05:33 AM
lets try to get the revolution started first and then we'll think about what to do afterwards
This has never worked, having a revolution without actually thinking about how you can progress afterwards. The masses need to be educated first so that they are in the revolutionary frame of mind - or at least would support drastic change.

Marx thought that revolution would occur first in Germany as it was industrialized. Effectively, Stalin industrialized the Soviet Union within 20 years and maybe he should be given credit for this but he got it wrong.

Marx said: Peasantry (feudalism) --> Proletariat (capitalism) --> Communism
The USSR went: Peasantry --> Communism --> Proletariat

[enigma2517]

Good question.

The people who overthrew capitalism are certaintly a worthy bunch, but not worthy enough to rule themselves yet. No sir, they need training.

Someway, somehow they are going to gain class consciousness and the state will simply whither away. Thats right! You heard correctly. Government bureaucrats are going to relinquish their command of others and give up all that privlage because hey, they're good communists too (the best amongst us supposedly). Just as the state is being dismantled, one official says, "Hey wait a second, back up guys you're not ready yet. I think another epoch or two and then we'll be good."

"Oh man", sigh the workers. Just not in this lifetime I guess.

So that was a bit of satire I suppose ;)

So forget about the socialist transition for now, let me ask you a question. How can you be sure that socialism will even lead to communism? How will a classless society come out of something that does have classes and where wages and other such mechanisms still exist, thus establishing a direct material incentive for a relapse back into capitalism? (quoting redstar2000 a bit there)

[Led Zeppelin]

Historical stages can be skipped, they are merely theories on how history of mankind develops. Also it must be noted that Marx wrote this theory 150 years ago, so it could easily have changed.

[enigma2517]

Hmm theres good 'ol leninism for you.

Screw material conditions we need revolution!

Although I'm confused by this post. Are you as a Leninist implying that socialist step can be skipped?

Puzzling.

[Led Zeppelin]

I was referring to pre-communist historical stages. (to be more precise, the historical stages of feudalism to Communism)

Although i certainly am not a supporter of Trotsky i agree with him on this subject:

"It is nonsense to say that stages cannot in general be skipped. The living historical process always makes leaps over isolated “stages” which derive from theoretical breakdown into its component parts of the process of development in its entirety, that is, taken in its fullest scope. The same is demanded of revolutionary policy at critical moments. It may be said that the first distinction between a revolutionist and a vulgar evolutionist lies in the capacity to recognize and exploit such moments."

But this question is of no importance whatsoever today, since 95% of nation-states are capitalist, and therefore even by Marx's standards "ready" for Communist revolution.

[Cooler Reds Will Prevail]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2005, 04:42 PM
Hmm theres good 'ol leninism for you.

Screw material conditions we need revolution!

Although I'm confused by this post. Are you as a Leninist implying that socialist step can be skipped?

Puzzling.
Absoutely not, I'm a strong Leninist all I'm stating is that with the Soviet Union at least, it didn't seem to have any direction toward Communism and so I'm inquiring simply as to whether or not it is a good idea to set Communism as the ultimate goal at the start of the revolution, or if it would be better to just be in a Socialist state until the time is right and then introduce the concept. I don't know if this makes sense but, yeah.

[More Fire for the People]

The transition to socialism will take as long as needed to abolish money and organize industry co-operatively.

[Oldergod]

i disagree with the idea that socialism is just a transitional period for communism

[Hiero]

I would say as long as there is class war. When there are no class then such things as state and money will disappear.

[Led Zeppelin]

I would say as long as there is class war. When there are no class then such things as state and money will disappear.

You should read The State and Revolution for Lenin's view.

[OleMarxco]

Social Transistions will go on as long as they have to :P
-Tyler Durden.

No, really, that was just a gag. We'll see. Hopefully no time at all.
But, some people like to "make a case" out of it...and abuse it, aye?
So perhaps we should try to "skip it", aye? Not like 'rat's possible, 'tho ;)
And also, don't forget, you can't take away all borders if not....*CUE TO
DRAMATIC MUSIC* ....the whole world has been conquered, MUAHAHAHAHH!
To establish Communism. Yeah, that's right, beaatch. We've been aimin' for
world-domination, all the time...aaaalll the taim...need, more...power....