The US or Latin America

[Phalanx]

I have been wondering for quite some time, is it actually worth it to try to incite revolution in the US?

My theory is that we should try to rid South America of all US-backed governments. After this is completed, the implementation of communism into each of these governments goes into effect. A steady isolation of the US in its own hemisphere in my opinion would be more productive than a revolution in a land of reactionaries. The revolution in US soil would be crushed either by the millions of gun owners each eager to bloody their hands on a "commie bastard" or by the brutal, racist police.

[romanm]

There is no Amerikan proletaria. Amerika as a whole is the class enemy. Amerika must be broken and destroyed.

Socialism will not come from within, Socialism has to be imposed on Amerika by a joint dictatorship of the proletariat and oppressed nations (JDPON).

I think you are very right that Latin America needs a revolutionary movement to crush imperialism and also to crush Amerika.

marxleninmao.proboards43.com

[Clarksist]

There is no Amerikan proletaria. Amerika as a whole is the class enemy. Amerika must be broken and destroyed.

In America the middle class is as close to the proletariat as you would really "need" for revolution. Although I see no revolution coming from them, yet.


Socialism will not come from within, Socialism has to be imposed on Amerika by a joint dictatorship of the proletariat and oppressed nations (JDPON).

Oh! So that way the oppressed proletariat can be imperialistic and crush America (believe it or not you don't spell it with a "k") by making America just SO much better by switching up the bourgeois. I don't see the productivity in that.


I think you are very right that Latin America needs a revolutionary movement to crush imperialism and also to crush Amerika.


How does being imperialistic crush imperialism?

And how would Latin America have a "revolutionary movement" outside of itself?

Of COURSE the US isn't a great place to start the revolution. Latin America, right now, seems the best place, but let's not be too optimistic. There is still a major fight to be won. And in the end revolutions in Latin America will still be fighting an American trained and supplied army.

[Organic Revolution]

there is no proletariat? that is terribly un educated response by you.

[D_Bokk]

The only way that the wealthy nations like the US would ever have a Revolution is if all of the countries they exploited to gain wealth became Socialist. Without the income of virtually free money, the standards of living in the US will fall to the point where tensions will grow between the Proletariat and the Bourgeosis.

All we can do in America, for now, is spread the truth about Socialism so the government cannot use the lies they have been feeding the public for years to fuel a war on Socialism in the poorer countries.

[romanm]

I invite Clarkist and others to marxleninmao.proboards43.com .. We are addressing the question of who is and who is not a proletariat. Accoring to Marx's view, there is very little if any proletariat in Amerika today. There certainly isn't any exploitation, unless you count prisoners and undocumented workers.

You can claim there is a significant proletariat in north Amerika but you have to reject Marx, science, and the obvious, to make such claims.

Anyone who is capable of holding serious discussion is invited.

[Phalanx]

I'm not sure if there's absolutely no proletariats in the US, but they are very limited. In my point of view, the middle-class is not part of the worldwide worker revolution. But there still are some very poor people in this hellhole.

[Organic Revolution]

so when your revolution comes... and youj dont have the popuar support of the middle class... what are you gonna do?

[Entrails Konfetti]

There is no Amerikan proletaria. Amerika as a whole is the class enemy. Amerika must be broken and destroyed.

There are working people in America,its that most of them have a higher standard of living than those in other parts of the world.But,please keep in mind that not all Americans are your enemy.


Socialism will not come from within, Socialism has to be imposed on Amerika by a joint dictatorship of the proletariat and oppressed nations (JDPON).

I think you are very right that Latin America needs a revolutionary movement to crush imperialism and also to crush Amerika.

Everyday is closer to the standoff between North America and Latin America.

[Phalanx]

Originally posted by rise [email protected] 30 2005, 05:57 PM
so when your revolution comes... and youj dont have the popuar support of the middle class... what are you gonna do?
That's precisley it. We must not rely on the middle-class of Latin America. My point is just to gain control of Latin America so we can choke the US to death through embargos and sanctions until the evil empire destroys itself. Are you forgetting that the majority of the people in Latin America are working-class?

[Phalanx]

Originally posted by EL [email protected] 30 2005, 10:46 PM
Everyday is closer to the standoff between North America and Latin America.
Yes, and us leftists must stand steadfastly with Latin America.

[symtoms_of_humanity]

There are many working class Americans, its just we have a higher living because we purchase more shit than nessecity, people live in Ghettos but insead of buying a home they buy a mega nice car with rims and what not, or clothing, many Americas have labor jobs and work like shit just to be able to live(such as my father who works a 12 hour day, plus many overtime hours and he does this day in and day out, and when he gets a cut that needs stiches it he uses glue because he can't afford healthcare) life isn't always as good as people make it sound, as for the talk of Revolution, I think it should come in the US becuase then the US back gov.s will crumble allowing the Revolutionaries in Latin America more of a chance

[romanm]

What does working class have to do with anything? Marx didn't count all wage earners as proletariat.

[Phalanx]

I acknowledge the working-class americans, but I still believe that they are in the minority. Although that could change, with the rapid growing of the gap between rich and poor. Also, sorry to hear about you father, its hardworking people like him that can make communism a possibility (even if he's not a Communist).

[Phalanx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2005, 11:58 PM
What does working class have to do with anything? Marx didn't count all wage earners as proletariat.
I believe that we can rely on working class people to aid in our revolution. Of course you can have middle class wage earners, but the fact is, we fight for the working class people to rid them of their chains the upper class puts on them, hell, middle class people take advantage of the working class.

[Entrails Konfetti]

I've always understood it as, those who makeproffit and those who don't. Most of the people I know make only enough for daily subsidence.

If you're going to single-out occupations as proletarian and non-proletarian,you'll alienate the movement. Thats why in America I think of it as those who are big bosses that make proffit and those who aren't and don't.

But,if I'm not considered "proletarian",if theres one thing I believe,that is equal-distrubution , a class-less society,and true democracy.

[romanm]

Ghengis,

Yes, the gap between rich and poor is widening, but that doesn't men the poor are getting poorer. It just means that the poor are getting richer at a slower rate.

There is a table from the census bureau on marxleninmao.proboards43.com in the economics section. It breaks it down by quintiles and also by bourgeois race catagories.

We have accumulated lots of data bout this if you are interested.

Look. It's find if you want to say all wage earners are proletarian or whatever, but that is not what Marx says. So, if you believe that - then don't call yourself a Marxist.

Marx's theory of exploitation is tied to a specific theory of value. And it doesn't count service workers nor white collar workers as exploited yet these groups do earn wages. If you want to learn more about Marx actually said then come to marxleninmao.proboards43.com

[codyvo]

I think that the revolution must definately start in the third world. We would probably recieve some backing from Venezuela and possibly Cuba and then if we informed the workers of Latin America they would most certainly join us. From their, we could move to Africa and by that time we would have enough power and support to bring the war home and hopefully succeed in america and other westernized nations.

[Clarksist]

Accoring to Marx's view, there is very little if any proletariat in Amerika today.



You can claim there is a significant proletariat in north Amerika but you have to reject Marx, science, and the obvious, to make such claims.



What does working class have to do with anything? Marx didn't count all wage earners as proletariat.


Who said I was a Marxist? And for information, I said that the middle class is as close as you need for revolution. I didn't say they WERE.

[symtoms_of_humanity]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 04:20 AM
Ghengis,

Yes, the gap between rich and poor is widening, but that doesn't men the poor are getting poorer. It just means that the poor are getting richer at a slower rate.

There is a table from the census bureau on marxleninmao.proboards43.com in the economics section. It breaks it down by quintiles and also by bourgeois race catagories.

We have accumulated lots of data bout this if you are interested.

Look. It's find if you want to say all wage earners are proletarian or whatever, but that is not what Marx says. So, if you believe that - then don't call yourself a Marxist.

Marx's theory of exploitation is tied to a specific theory of value. And it doesn't count service workers nor white collar workers as exploited yet these groups do earn wages. If you want to learn more about Marx actually said then come to marxleninmao.proboards43.com
Hence me not being a Marxist, and not only the Proletariat or w/e have harsh lives and are oppresed, you need to see that

[symtoms_of_humanity]

and in many cases more are becoming poor because many are losing jobs, or being fucked over bu Martha Stewart, or Enron or the situation in my area Adelphia, and the worst is we let these people get away with it, Enron guys freed, Martha Stuart freed, the Adelphia guys yea they were actually convicted, a diff guy 2.7 billion, but he was let off, thats not justice, its ignorance, and people are being oppresed, and controlled, and Marx would be against that as well, you must remeber times were different in 1800's, there is some need for adaptation

[romanm]

symtom,

if you can prove your claims about Amerikans getting poorer, I invite you to marxleninmao.proboards43.com to post the sources in the economics section.

[LSD]

ronanm, please stop using this board to advertise for other forums.

One time is acceptable, but not in every post!

[anomaly]

I think it is quite obvious that Latin America is quickly becoming a very revolutionary continent (and 1/2...central America). The USA is not prepared for communism, as an overwheliming majority of Americans do not have a favorable opinion of communism (I hear the phrase 'commie-bastard' all too often...). in fact, anything 'radical' in the US (right wing or left wing) is almost always frowned upon in the US, this opinion being fueled by a media which far too many in America trust. Such is not the case in Latin America. They have experienced, and have been experiencing, the darker side of capitalism, the true face of the system many an American would fight to defend (and have fought for it in the past). The Latin American people, nearly the entire people, excluding the bourgeoisie, are ready for beneficial change. In short, they are ready for communism. Revolution will come in LAtin America, and I hope many of the revolutionaries on this board one day go to Latin America to fight for communism, fight for the people.

That being said, I do not think it is fair to say no proletariat exist in the US, and that the American people are 'the problem'. No doubt some are. But I'm a US citizen, and I am certainly proletariat. My family lives in poverty, and though it is surely not so severe as most live in in the Third World, I have atleast a taste of their suffering. Thus, for me, communism is something I personally want, as I too have seen the darker side of capitalism. Communism is no altruistic goal alone for me, but rather an egoistic one. The problem is the US state, which supports the system of globalization of capitalism. The people are never a problem. Even the bourgeoisie, no doubt our enemy, are only doing what the system demands of them to be 'successful'. We should never blame the people alone, as the system itself is always the culprit.

[*REVOLUCIÓN*]

Nearly all Americans are infested by the anti-extremist
propaganda.

I think too there´ll be a revolution in Latin America,
but if there´s not it´ll have to be we who start.
Afterall it´s we who write history, we shouldn´t
wait till its written.

[Klipper]

i honestly think that latin america would be the place to start the revolution because:
-there are many many socialists in latin america
-latin americans don't seem to take shit from their government, as seen in ecuador and elsewhere
-there is a rather high poverty rate throughout latin america (suriname-70%; venezuela-47%; columbia-55%; ecuador-45%; peru-54%; bolivia-65%; belize-33%; mexico-40%; el salvador-36%; nicaragua-50%; honduras-53%; guatemala-75%; paraguay-36%; argentina-44%; panama-37%; then the richer countries being uruguay, costa rica, chile, brazil, guyana, french guiana have about a 20% poverty population | if someone could go on the CIA world factbook and find out the actual number of human units that are living under the poverty line [by calculating the poverty percent by the population,] i would appreciate that because this would be the number of human units most likely willing to fight for socialism | also find out what the land mass is of all the listen countries with high poverty rates combined)
-it is a pretty *fucking big* place
-it has many many many resources

i have lately been thinking a lot about organising such a thing, and whenever i think about it, i think of all the possibilities, and all the good that could come (provided there isn't some oppressive state involved, and the people actually had real socialism [democratic socialism])

[Phalanx]

I&#39;d say the best way to get involved is to help out existing organizations, such as FARC (unless you think they&#39;re evil <_< ). Or even something like Venezuela. Yes, I know Chavez isn&#39;t Communist, but I think he does have good intentions, and he&#39;s an enemy of the US :) .

[symtoms_of_humanity]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 05:43 AM
symtom,

if you can prove your claims about Amerikans getting poorer, I invite you to marxleninmao.proboards43.com to post the sources in the economics section.
I live in a ghetto in the US, so you don&#39;t tell me about fucking statistics, I see people scrounging to live, and working just to live, then on the other hand I see rich people firing thier employees, don&#39;t go on about statistics, I know there are much poorer countires than here, but don&#39;t go on about statistics

[Klipper]

symptoms: i agree with you completely&#33; even though there may not be as large of a gap between the rich and the poor in amerika as there is in 3rd world countries and such, it is still quite a bit, and i&#39;m sure there are many poor people in amerika willing to take up arms and fight a revolution for socialism&#33;

though i still think that latin america would be beter starting ground, as explaindh above.