lets recall some great men

[amdworld]

this may not be totally a ernesto che guevara topic.

but i would be curious of a listing of who or what great MODERN men fought for a cause or a hated poverty stricken world and tried to do something about.

my top form as

CHE GUEVARA
MARCUS GARVEY
M.L KING
N. MANDELLA.

this a just thought not a fact!!
Can Bob Geldof find his way in here he seems to have a voice that one listens too and his cause is valid ,however he shows no military aggression,moreover in this day and age his cause would be lost if it had any remote military force .

[Sir Aunty Christ]

I don't think Bob Geldof could legitimately fit onto the list as you have it now, and nor would he want to. The people you listed were/are political leaders who dedicated their lives to causes. Bob Geldof, while I'm sure he is sincere about Africa and poverty, he is primarily a musician who took up the issue of Africa. People listen to him because he's eloquent and forceful. What he shares with those you mentioned is charisma.

I would add Ghandi to the list.

[Sir Aunty Christ]

And the Dalai Lama

[Phalanx]

I'm not so sure about Ghandi. I think his motives were more self-interest than actual freeing India from a colonial power.

[Colombia]

Really? What makes you think so?

How about adding Jorge Eliécer Gaitán to your list?

[Led Zeppelin]

I do not adhere to imaginary great leaders who where just products of their time.

But to increase the quality of this thread i will add some:

Marx

Engels

Lenin

Stalin

[*Hippie*]

Just men? Why not add a few women?

Well, I'll add a man anyway, Noam Chomsky, inspiring with his intellect.

[Sir Aunty Christ]

Aung San Suu Kyi

[*REVOLUCIÓN*]

Do you really think stalin was a great man ?
Alright , he was a communist... but now every one know
what terrible things he did.

Greta women ?

Rosa Luxemburg

[Sir Aunty Christ]

Originally posted by *REVOLUCIÓN*@Jun 30 2005, 01:37 PM
Do you really think stalin was a great man ?
Alright , he was a communist... but now every one know
what terrible things he did.

Greta women ?

Rosa Luxemburg
Forgot about her.

[amdworld]

interesting ,i was more curious ,the geldof view was merely there to throw open a topic.
has for stalin he doesnt come into my theory of great men,he had a military force ,he had a disposable armour.

the men i listed did not have a so called disposable income/armour!!!

however im not really that clued on stalin ,perhaps i will dig deep and find some relative info.

brian..

[Oldergod]

why do so many people on this board forget about malcolm X? he was twice the revolutionary martin luther king ever was in my eyes

[TupacAndChe4Eva]

100% agree about Malcolm X.

While Martin Luther King is rightfully on this list, I believe his dream was just that : a dream. I believe Malcolm was right in his belief that Black America would only be free when conflict arose.

Plus, since we are on the Che Guevara board, Che wanted to go to Harlem to meet Malcolm X. I believe it is referred to in the JLA book.

A few others:

Huey Newton

Mao Tse-Tung

Muhammad Ali

[Mayhem]

Bob Geldoff is a self-righteous prick, end of story.

I'll add some names:

Mike Hoare.
Bob Denard.
Jack Schrammes.

['Discourse Unlimited']

Just men? Why not add a few women?


VERY good point! Too much fascination with the "great men", I think; as there has been throughout "history". Besides, heroes are over-rated. :P

I'll mention Mother Theresa, because I admire her "spirit".

[amdworld]

can u all do me favour please just add some detail info about your choices,some of these names i have no idea abt ,has i said im curious .


i.e
Mike Hoare.
Bob Denard.
Jack Schrammes.

[codyvo]

Fidel Castro, some of you may deny his greatness but I say he was equal if not better than Che.

Also:
Harriet Tubman
Fredrick Douglas
William Lloyd Garrison

[Oldergod]

i dont think Che ever met malcolm but i know fidel did

[romanm]

Jiang Qing

[LSD]

I'll mention Mother Theresa, because I admire her "spirit".

You do? :blink:

She was a fanatical religious fundamentalist obsessed with inflicting pain who exploited the poor, maltreated the sick, stole donations, and supported brutal dictatorships.

When she recieved her Nobel Joke, she said that the greatest threat to world peace was "abortion". :o

The Catholic selling of this hateful little monster as "holy" is one of the greatest con-jobs of the twentieth century.

"Mother" Theresa was a horrible biggoted fanatic and the world is better off for her being dead.

[TupacAndChe4Eva]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 05:46 AM
i dont think Che ever met malcolm but i know fidel did
True, Fidel did.

Che wanted to, but thought it would be too risky considering Malcolm was already a outcast in conservative America. It was when he went to New York. It is in the JLA book, on page 618.

He sent a letter that Malcolm read, which is as follows:-

"Dear brothers and sisters of Harlem. I would have liked to have been with you and Brother Babu, but the actual conditions are not good for this meeting. Recieve the warm salutations of the Cuban people, and especially Fidel, who fondly remembers his visit to Harlem a few years ago. United we will win. - Che".

Having him meet with Che might have been too much for right-wing America to take. It cold have been seen as an intromission in its internal affairs, so ther US government could then intervene.

[bunk]

Geldof's a fucking idiot, he condemned Genoa protestors but said nothing on police brutality!

[Sons_of_Eureka]

I recon,

Lei Feng

Kim Il Sung

Yang Gensi (chinesse martyr from Korean war)

Ho Chi Mihn

Salvador Allende

Ned Kelly of coarse

and as the other comrades said Mao and Jiang Qing.

I have respect for Gandi but he is not a hero as he f*cked up and pakistan and india.They needed a people's war but Gandi destroyed any revolutionary prospects resulting in millions of needless deaths.

Dalia Lama,for f*cks sake read the 'pre china tibet,yuck' thread in history.Anyone who supports the crimes of the Lamas needs a swift kick in the arse or a bullet to the head.

[Sir Aunty Christ]

The thing about celebrities like Geldof (not bandwagon jumpers like Brad Pitt) is that they are prepared to campaign on a particular issue - and then that's it. Bob Geldof knows that debt relief will probably hit him in the pocket but is prepared to put up with that because he knows that the system won't change so drastically that his lifestyle will be affected.

Billy Bragg is a celebrity who, while he may support Geldof's methods, wants to progress beyond that issue towards socialism.

[amdworld]

at last some constructive talking.bob geldolf yes but not you r normal celeb his music was awful but for us in the uk he seems to hit home and has a rather dubious way of forcing or persuading our uk government leaders ,he often cleverly embarrases them into submission.however that may be a english way.
im not comparing bob g to any of the political martyrs mentioned above but i do admire him for making things happen.particularly the african aid issues.

[Sir Aunty Christ]

Did you see the clip of the MTV thing where he's stting beside Tony Blair and says something like "We have 98% of world trade while Africa has 2%. That's an awful state of affairs... isn't it Tony?" Blair replies: "Yes it is Bob."

That was great.

Slightly off-topic: "I don't like Mondays" and "Ratrap" are great songs.

[amdworld]

exactly the point.it takes a fair man to stand and humiliate a leader with such accuracy.we can all shout abusive words or think we can voice our opinion but when u hit a home run like that then its job done!.

no in thoughts he is not a iconic figure ,neither his he a martyr but he is doing something and someone is listening.yes im off to HYDE PARK 2morrow to sit back and enjoy pink floyd and the rest of em .hopefully afterwards it will have done something!

mr geldolf no martyr
but a man with a cause.


che died for his cause for that i would class him as a true martyr.

[Che1990]

Malcom x
Martin Luther King Jr.
Gandhi
Che
Fidel
Medgar Evers

The list is endless

['Discourse Unlimited']

"Mother" Theresa was a horrible biggoted fanatic and the world is better off for her being dead.


Mother Theresa did one hell of a lot to help the poor, and acted benevolently within the framework of her belief system. She was a Catholic, obviously. So she suggested policies that 'leftists' might react harshly against - such as the whole abortion issue. You view her as "bad" simply because she adopted a world view not "your own".

This is bigotry at its worst.

I'd rather accept the good that she did, regardless of her "flaws" (only 'perceived', after all...), and thank her for it. I believe that her "net contribution" to the state of the world was overwhelmingly positive... Hence her "great" status.

[Che1990]

Originally posted by 'Discourse Unlimited'@Jul 2 2005, 11:13 PM


"Mother" Theresa was a horrible biggoted fanatic and the world is better off for her being dead.


Mother Theresa did one hell of a lot to help the poor, and acted benevolently within the framework of her belief system. She was a Catholic, obviously. So she suggested policies that 'leftists' might react harshly against - such as the whole abortion issue. You view her as "bad" simply because she adopted a world view not "your own".

This is bigotry at its worst.

I'd rather accept the good that she did, regardless of her "flaws" (only 'perceived', after all...), and thank her for it. I believe that her "net contribution" to the state of the world was overwhelmingly positive... Hence her "great" status.
Exactly. We can't condemn people because they not leftist. A lot of people who were catholic, not leftists etc. have done loads to help the poor.

By the way has anyone here actually heard of Medgar Evers, no-one seems to have done. He was a great man.

[Anarcho-Communist]

I think that Martin Luther King did a lot for the black people of America. Also William Wallace from Scotland. He brought so much courage to the Scots and a hope of freedom. :P (I thought this was the Ernesto "Che" Guevara forum, it's gone a little off task) :lol:

[LSD]

Mother Theresa did one hell of a lot to help the poor

No she didn't!

She left them in horrible conditions while she spent the bulk of her donations building nunneries.

Her "home" in India was a joke where she wouldn't even spring for poper living conditions.

The sanitary conditions were attrocious, there was one pit in the ground where everyone had to deficate in public view, The dying were forced to lie in terrible little hammocks, forbidden to move, not allowed to leave. They couldn't recieve any visits from family or friends, nor recieve any medical attention. And, perhaps worst of all, Mother Theresa did not allow doctors in.

It wasn't that she couldn't afford them, mind you, she had more than enough money. She didn't want doctors because she didn't want people to recover.

She outright admitted that she wanted them in horrible conditions, she wanted them dying.

Understand that? SHE WANTED THEM TO SUFFER!!!

She had a personal obsession with suffering and thought that if people suffered they'd become "closer" to "God". And so she inflicted it wherever she could. Not only that, but she believed that associating with suffering helped her personal "enlightenment" and so she ran around the world keeping the poor poor and keeping the dying dying just so that she could be "around" suffering.

Millions died and millions more suffered because of her deception and cruelty.


and acted benevolently within the framework of her belief system.

You mean by sucking up to brutal dictators?

You mean by stealing from the destitute?

You mean by allowing millions to die for her own religious "quest"?

I don't care what her "framework" was, what she did was atrocious by any standard.


So she suggested policies that 'leftists' might react harshly against - such as the whole abortion issue.

This isn't about what she "suggested", it's about what she did.

Instead of spending the millions of dollars that were given to her on charity, she spent it on bolstering her organization and setting up franchise operations. She built up her little army of absolutely loyal followers who obeyed her every word.

She could have easily actually helped the people that she claimed she was helping, but she want to.

She wanted to "touch suffering" and so, as even her supporters will admit if pressed, she actively aimed to keep people impoverished and in pain. She though that it was a way to "reach" Jesus.


You view her as "bad" simply because she adopted a world view not "your own".

No. This isn't a left, right issue.

Mother Theresa was a horrible woman, not because of her beliefs, but because of her actions.

[Rockfan]

Originally posted by Anarcho-[email protected] 3 2005, 07:59 PM
I think that Martin Luther King did a lot for the black people of America. Also William Wallace from Scotland. He brought so much courage to the Scots and a hope of freedom. :P (I thought this was the Ernesto "Che" Guevara forum, it's gone a little off task) :lol:
Freedom!!!!!!!

Jimi Hendrix
Sparticas
I don't think we have seen sub commandant Marcos yet.

[southernmissfan]

I can't believe people here have called murderous, authoritarian monsters like Stalin and Mao are called "great men"...

[Patchy]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2005, 02:41 AM
I can't believe people here have called murderous, authoritarian monsters like Stalin and Mao are called "great men"...
I concur with you, comrade.

[dyanamic]

Originally posted by Lysergic Acid [email protected] 3 2005, 09:24 PM

Mother Theresa did one hell of a lot to help the poor

No she didn't!

She left them in horrible conditions while she spent the bulk of her donations building nunneries.

Her "home" in India was a joke where she wouldn't even spring for poper living conditions.

The sanitary conditions were attrocious, there was one pit in the ground where everyone had to deficate in public view, The dying were forced to lie in terrible little hammocks, forbidden to move, not allowed to leave. They couldn't recieve any visits from family or friends, nor recieve any medical attention. And, perhaps worst of all, Mother Theresa did not allow doctors in.

It wasn't that she couldn't afford them, mind you, she had more than enough money. She didn't want doctors because she didn't want people to recover.

She outright admitted that she wanted them in horrible conditions, she wanted them dying.

Understand that? SHE WANTED THEM TO SUFFER!!!

She had a personal obsession with suffering and thought that if people suffered they'd become "closer" to "God". And so she inflicted it wherever she could. Not only that, but she believed that associating with suffering helped her personal "enlightenment" and so she ran around the world keeping the poor poor and keeping the dying dying just so that she could be "around" suffering.

Millions died and millions more suffered because of her deception and cruelty.


and acted benevolently within the framework of her belief system.

You mean by sucking up to brutal dictators?

You mean by stealing from the destitute?

You mean by allowing millions to die for her own religious "quest"?

I don't care what her "framework" was, what she did was atrocious by any standard.


So she suggested policies that 'leftists' might react harshly against - such as the whole abortion issue.

This isn't about what she "suggested", it's about what she did.

Instead of spending the millions of dollars that were given to her on charity, she spent it on bolstering her organization and setting up franchise operations. She built up her little army of absolutely loyal followers who obeyed her every word.

She could have easily actually helped the people that she claimed she was helping, but she want to.

She wanted to "touch suffering" and so, as even her supporters will admit if pressed, she actively aimed to keep people impoverished and in pain. She though that it was a way to "reach" Jesus.


You view her as "bad" simply because she adopted a world view not "your own".

No. This isn't a left, right issue.

Mother Theresa was a horrible woman, not because of her beliefs, but because of her actions.
So everything we've read, seen and heard about this woman is like...propaganda?
How 'bout some sources to back up your BS? :unsure:

[LSD]

So everything we've read, seen and heard about this woman is like...propaganda?

Pretty much.


How 'bout some sources to back up your BS?

"BS"?

What "BS"?

Nothing I have written is even controversial. Mother "Theresa" has admitted that suffering was her goal. Hell, the Catholic League has admitted that suffering was her goal!

Her "home" in Kolkota was investigated by several independent medical groups all of which found the conditions there appaling.

She was photographed with the Duvaliers, praising their rule, and many ex-member of her cult have come out and revealed that the vast majority of the charitable donations she recieved did not go to charity.

This is all already public!

But you want sources?

Start here:
http://www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/490/theresa.htm
http://website.lineone.net/~bajuu/chatlet.htm

[Warren Peace]

I can't believe people here have called murderous, authoritarian monsters like Stalin and Mao are called "great men"...

GOD DAMNIT I wish people would stop grouping Mao with that son of a ***** Stalin. :angry: Mao was not "murderous", the only "murder" you could possibly blame him for was that people starved during the Great Leap Forward, which was when Mao redirected some production effort from food to steel. Mao did not murder those people, he was only trying to surpass the United States and he had no way of knowing that there would be an economic disaster. The majority of the deaths people blame on the Great Leap Forward came from natrual causes(flooding, drought, ect).

As for the communist revolution in the Chinese Civil War, and the Cultural Revolution, they were exactly what their names imply, revolutions! If Mao hadn't lead the Chinese Civil War, China would either be controlled by warlords, KMT Nazi fascists, or Japanese imperialists, and we know from Nanjing how nicely Japanese occupiers treat the Chinese people.

Stalin corrupted the USSR. When China was becoming corrupt, Mao was not at the head of it, instead he (and Jiang Qing) lead a force of students and workers (the Red Gaurds) in a massive uprising (the Cultural Revolution) against the corruption. Obviously the Cultural Revolution backfired, it got out of his hands and the Red Gaurds started looting and burning everything and creating mass chaos. :wacko: Even though some of Mao's efforts backfired, he was a great revolutionary leader, and so was Jiang Qing (Jiang was kind of hot when she was younger, but all the pictures you see of her now are when she was an old woman) :lol: .

[codyvo]

Woody Guthrie
Emiliano Zapata
Pancho Villa
Murray Bookchin
Will Ferell

[Warren Peace]

As for more great men, what about Gamal Abdel Nasser?

And nobody has mentioned Leon Trotsky yet.

Also Sun Yat-sen, the "Father of Modern China", although I don't think he's as important as Mao and Jiang Qing.

I know another comrade already mentioned Ho Chi Minh, but he has to be on the list.


Dalia Lama,for f*cks sake read the 'pre china tibet,yuck' thread in history.Anyone who supports the crimes of the Lamas needs a swift kick in the arse or a bullet to the head.

The Dalai Lama is fair. I consider him a former part of the Class Enemy, because he owned 4,000 slaves and was an oppressive feudal lord, but after the Chinese exiled him I think he became way more enlightened. He even wrote a hymn to Mao comparing him to the Hindu creator god, and asked to join the Communist Party!

[violencia.Proletariat]

Originally posted by Revolt Now!@Jul 14 2005, 01:13 PM

I can't believe people here have called murderous, authoritarian monsters like Stalin and Mao are called "great men"...

GOD DAMNIT I wish people would stop grouping Mao with that son of a ***** Stalin. :angry: Mao was not "murderous", the only "murder" you could possibly blame him for was that people starved during the Great Leap Forward, which was when Mao redirected some production effort from food to steel. Mao did not murder those people, he was only trying to surpass the United States and he had no way of knowing that there would be an economic disaster. The majority of the deaths people blame on the Great Leap Forward came from natrual causes(flooding, drought, ect).

As for the Chinese Revolution and Cultural Revolution, they were exactly what their names imply, revolutions! If Mao hadn't lead the Chinese Revolution, China would either be controlled by warlords, KMT Nazi fascists, or Japanese imperialists, and we know from Nanjing how nicely Japanese occupiers treat the Chinese people.

Stalin corrupted the USSR. When China was becoming corrupt, Mao was not at the head of it, instead he (and Jiang Qing) lead a force of students and workers (the Red Gaurds) in a massive uprising (the Cultural Revolution) against the corruption. Obviously the Cultural Revolution backfired, it got out of his hands and the Red Gaurds started looting and burning everything and creating mass chaos. :wacko: Even though some of Mao's efforts backfired, he was a great revolutionary leader, and so was Jiang Qing (Jiang was kind of hot when she was younger, but all the pictures you see of her now are when she was an old woman) :lol: .
dude, japan lost the war, i dont think they would be able to control china while they are being occupied by the us

[Warren Peace]

dude, japan lost the war, i dont think they would be able to control china while they are being occupied by the us

The US never occupied Japan, they only beat Japan because they nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki, killing hundreds of thousands of innocent people in the greatest terrorist attack of all time.

China would still be a shithole if Mao hadn't lead the revolution, even assuming the Japanese Empire would still have been defeated. If not the Japanese, then some other imperialist power, KMT fascists, or feudal warlods would rule over China.

[codyvo]

I don't think anyone has mentioned Cesar Chavez, he is a great guy.

[amdworld]

Cesar Chavez, tell me more

[The Feral Underclass]

This thread is sick! Some of the people named are disgusting. This is a revolutionary left message board, not a liberal pit of ming.

Bleh!

Also, let's back off with the gender bias.

[Donnie]

You guys all romanticise about these glorious "great" <_< leaders&#33; How about your common class struggle men and women? Like:
- The miners in the miners strike
- The Haymarket Martyr’s (Even though I would consider them reformist)
- The guy who through the bomb at the police in the Haymarket riots
- The Students of May 1968
- Makhonov (I think thats how you spell it)
- Durruti
- The people came to Spain to fight against fascism in 1936&#33;

Even some of the ones I’ve mentioned are reformist they were still part of the class struggle movement and tried to fight for freedom&#33;

Surely these comrades deserve credit?

[cubalibra]

Howard Zinn should be put right up there with Noam Chomsky. The top 5 for me are:

1) Che

2) MLK

3) Malcom X

4) Fidel Castro

5) Gandhi

As far as American politicians go, JFK and RFK.

[codyvo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2005, 12:45 PM
Cesar Chavez, tell me more
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cesar_Chavez

Donnie, Cesar Chavez is just a regular working class guy, he was one of the people that had to pick tomatoes for 6 cents an hour.

[cubalibra]

Can anyone recommend a good book on Mao since I don&#39;t know much about him.

[Warren Peace]

Can anyone recommend a good book on Mao since I don&#39;t know much about him.

It&#39;s cool, comrade, hardly anybody here really knows anything about him, but they&#39;re dogmatic and they assume he was like Stalin. ;) Mao was actually a Trotskyist, it was Trotsky&#39;s work that originally inspired Mao to become a communist when he was an assistant at the Peking University library.

Mao&#39;s most famous book, Quotations from Chairman Mao (http://terebess.hu/english/mao.html), or "The Little Red Book" is owned by billions. During the Civil Rights Movement, the Black Panther Party raised money by selling copies of it.

I recomed buying Mao&#39;s book On Guerilla Warfare (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0252068920/qid=1121704139/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-6285975-4106404?v=glance&s=books&n=507846). The US General who translated it wrote a good biography about Mao in his introduction, which is like half the book.

I highly recomend reading this piece (http://www.time.com/time/asia/asia/magazine/1999/990823/mao1.html) by a Chinese teacher who knew Mao. She does a great job of describing Mao as a person.

Also, you might want to read Wiki&#39;s articles on Mao, Jiang Qing, and the Cultural Revolution, they&#39;re mostly fair.

[Sons_of_Eureka]

As far as American politicians go, JFK and RFK.

Whats the go? these people were tyranicle monsters who got pleasure from mudering the working class (ie.vietnam,bay of pigs etc.....)


This thread is sick&#33; Some of the people named are disgusting. This is a revolutionary left message board, not a liberal pit of ming.

Next thing Drew Carey and Mr T will be on someones &#39;great peoples list&#39;

[Che1990]

Daniel Ortega
Emily Pankhurst (I know the thread says great men but fuck off)

I&#39;ll add more when I think of them.

[cubalibra]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2005, 12:28 PM

As far as American politicians go, JFK and RFK.

Whats the go? these people were tyranicle monsters who got pleasure from mudering the working class (ie.vietnam,bay of pigs etc.....)


This thread is sick&#33; Some of the people named are disgusting. This is a revolutionary left message board, not a liberal pit of ming.

Next thing Drew Carey and Mr T will be on someones &#39;great peoples list&#39;
Sons of eureka, when I spoke of JFK and RFK, I specified politicians. I don&#39;t think these men can stand up to revolutionaries like Che, Malcolm X, and MLK, but as far as politicians go, JFK attempted to break up the CIA, he refused to add support to the Bay of Pigs when everyone else in D.C. was for an armed invasion of Cuba, and he did agree that the U.S. will not invade Cuba to e3nd the Cuban Missle Crisis and put it in writing, which has prevented the US with starting another invasion. He sent a French journalist to meet with Castro to tell him that he wanted a truce so he could end the embargo five days before he was assassinated. RFK was going to pick MLK as his vice-president. This is the reason both men were killed by the US government and patsies were in place to take the fall.

[cult.45]

im not sure if this havs been stated before, but how bout Rosa Parks? tell me what you think

[rahul]

einstein
che
bhagath singh- the indian revolutionary (http://rahul.redapollo.org/bha.html)
fiedel
marx
engles
gandhi
sri sri (http://mahakavisrisri.com/home/intro.html)

[cubalibra]

Leonard Peltier

[CheJoni]

crazy horse (an idian)

[Sir Aunty Christ]

Looks like you were all right about Mother Teresa:

The squalid truth behind the legacy of Mother Teresa

Donal MacIntyre

Monday 22nd August 2005

The nun adored by the Vatican ran a network of care homes where cruelty and neglect are routine. Donal MacIntyre gained secret access and witnessed at first hand the suffering of "rescued" orphans

The dormitory held about 30 beds rammed in so close that there was hardly a breath of air between the bare metal frames. Apart from shrines and salutations to "Our Great Mother", the white walls were bare. The torch swept across the faces of children sleeping, screaming, laughing and sobbing, finally resting on the hunched figure of a boy in a white vest. Distressed, he rocked back and forth, his ankle tethered to his cot like a goat in a farmyard. This was the Daya Dan orphanage for children aged six months to 12 years, one of Mother Teresa&#39;s flagship homes in Kolkata. It was 7.30 in the evening, and outside the monsoon rains fell unremittingly.

Earlier in the day, young international volunteers had giggled as one told how a young boy had peed on her while strapped to a bed. I had already been told of an older disturbed woman tied to a tree at another Missionaries of Charity home. At the orphanage, few of the volunteers batted an eyelid at disabled children being tied up. They were too intoxicated with the myth of Mother Teresa and drunk on their own philanthropy to see that such treatment of children was inhumane and degrading.

Mother Teresa founded the Missionaries of Charity in 1950 in Kolkata, answering her own calling to "serve the poorest of the poor". In 1969, a documentary about her work with the poor catapulted her to global celebrity. International awards fol-lowed, including the Nobel Peace Prize and a Congressional Gold Medal. But when, in her Nobel acceptance speech, she described abortion as "the greatest destroyer of peace today" she started to provoke controversy. She died on 5 September 1997, her name attached to some 60 centres worldwide, and India honoured her with a state funeral. Her seven homes for the poor and destitute of Kolkata, however, are her lasting monument.

I worked undercover for a week in Mother Teresa&#39;s flagship home for disabled boys and girls to record Mother Teresa&#39;s Legacy, a special report for Five News broadcast earlier this month. I winced at the rough handling by some of the full-time staff and Missionary sisters. I saw children with their mouths gagged open to be given medicine, their hands flaying in distress, visible testimony to the pain they were in. Tiny babies were bound with cloths at feeding time. Rough hands wrenched heads into position for feeding. Some of the children retched and coughed as rushed staff crammed food into their mouths. Boys and girls were abandoned on open toilets for up to 20 minutes at a time. Slumped, untended, some dribbling, some sleeping, they were a pathetic sight. Their treatment was an affront to their dignity, and dangerously unhygienic.

Volunteers (from Italy, Sweden, the United States and the UK) did their best to cradle and wash the children who had soiled themselves. But there were no nappies, and only cold water. Soap and disinfectant were in short supply. Workers washed down beds with dirty water and dirty cloths. Food was prepared on the floor in the corridor. A senior member of staff mixed medicine with her hands. Some did their best to give love and affection - at least some of the time. But, for the most part, the care the children received was inept, unprofessional and, in some cases, rough and dangerous. "They seem to be warehousing people rather than caring for them," commented the former operations director of Mencap Martin Gallagher, after viewing our undercover footage.

I first learned of the plight of the Kolkata children from two international aid workers, both qualified nurses and committed Catholics. They came to me after working as volunteers for the Missionaries of Charity last Christmas. Both made the comparison with images that emerged from Romanian orphanages in the early 1990s after television news teams first gained access.

"I was shocked. I could only work there [Daya Dan] for three days. It was simply too distressing. . . We had seen the same things in Romania but couldn&#39;t believe it was happening in a Mother Teresa home," one told me. In January, she and her colleague had written to Sister Nirmala, the new Mother Superior, to voice their concerns. They wrote, they told me, out of "compassion and not complaint", but received no response. Like me, they had been brought up in Catholic schools to believe that Mother Teresa was the holiest of all women, second only to the Virgin Mary. Our faith was unwavering, as was that of the international media for about 50 years. Even when the sister in charge of the Missionaries of Charity&#39;s Mahatma Gandhi Welfare Centre in Kolkata was prosecuted and found guilty of burning a young girl of seven with a hot knife in 2000, criticism remained muted.

The most significant challenge to the reputation of Mother Teresa came from Christopher Hitchens in 1995 in his book The Missionary Position. "Only the absence of scrutiny has allowed her to pass unchallenged as a force for pure goodness, and it is high time that this suspension of our critical faculties was itself suspended," he wrote, questioning whether the poor in her homes were denied basic treatment in the belief that suffering brought them closer to God. Hitchens&#39;s lonely voice also raised the issue of the order&#39;s finances, which in 1995 (and still in July 2005 when we were filming) seemed never to reach Kolkata&#39;s poorest.

Susan Shields, formerly a senior nun with the order, recalled that one year there was roughly &#036;50m in the bank account held by the New York office alone. Much of the money, she complained, sat in banks while workers in the homes were obliged to reuse blunt needles. The order has stopped reusing needles, but the poor care remains pervasive. One nurse told me of a case earlier this year where staff knew a patient had typhoid but made no effort to protect volunteers or other patients. "The sense was that God will provide and if the worst happens - it is God&#39;s will."

The Kolkata police force and the city&#39;s social welfare department have promised to investigate the incidents in the Daya Dan home when they have seen and verified the distressing footage we secretly filmed. Dr Aroup Chatterjee, a London-based Kolkata-born doctor, believes that if Daya Dan were any other care home in India, "the authorities would close it down. The Indian government is in thrall to the legacy of Mother Teresa and is terrified of her reputation and status. There are many better homes than this in Kolkata," he told us.

Nearly eight years after her death, Mother Teresa is fast on the way to sainthood. The great aura of myth that surrounds her is built on her great deeds helping the poor and the destitute of Kolkata, birthplace of her order, the Missionaries of Charity. Rarely has one individual so convinced public opinion of the holiness of her cause. Her reward is accelerated canonisation.

But her homes are a disgrace to so-called Christian care and, indeed, civilised values of any kind. I witnessed barbaric treatment of the most vulnerable.

The Missionaries of Charity have said that they welcome constructive criticism, and that the children we saw were tied for their own safety and for "educational purposes". Sister Nirmala even welcomed our film: "Our hopes continue to be simply to provide immediate and effective service to the poorest of the poor as long as they have no one to help them . . . May God bless you and your efforts to promote the dignity of human life, especially for those who are underprivileged."

For too long Mother Teresa&#39;s Missionaries of Charity have been blessing critics, rather than addressing justified and damning condemnations of the serious failings in their care practices.

Donal MacIntyre is a reporter and documentary-maker for Channel 5 Television

www.newstatesman.com/200508220019

[Forward Union]

All the exploited, all who have fought back against capitalism. All who have, in any way stood up for equality and justice.

I would like to add, yea, you may admire Che, fine. But what about the others who fought with him in Bolivia and died? I could list all them but I won&#39;t bother, you know what I mean.