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Organic Revolution
29th June 2005, 05:26
No Gods

Once, flipping through a book on child psychology, I came across a chapter about adolescent rebellion. It suggested that in the first phase of a child's youthful rebellion against her parents, she may attempt to distinguish herself from them by accusing them of not living up to their own values. For example, if they taught her that kindness and consideration are important, she will accuse them of not being compassionate enough. In this case the child has not yet defined herself or her own values; she still accepts the values and ideas that her parents passed on to her, and she is only able to assert her identity inside of that framework. It is only later, when she questions the very beliefs and morals that were presented to her as gospel, that she can become a free-standing individual.

I often think that we have not gotten beyond that first stage of rebellion in the hardcore scene. We criticize the actions of those in the mainstream and the effects of their society upon people and animals, we attack the ignorance and cruelty of their system, but we rarely stop to question the nature of what we all accept as "morality." Could it be that this "morality," by which we think we can judge their actions, is itself something that should be criticized? When we claim that the exploitation of animals is "morally wrong," what does that mean? Are we perhaps just accepting their values and turning these values against them, rather than creating moral standards of our own?

Maybe right now you're saying to yourself "what do you mean, create moral standards of our own? Something is either morally right or it isn't—morality isn't something you can make up, it's not a matter of mere opinion." Right there, you're accepting one of the most basic tenets of the society that raised you: that right and wrong are not individual valuations, but fundamental laws of the world. This idea, a holdover from a deceased Christianity, is at the center of our civilization. If you are going to question the establishment, you should question it first!

There is no such thing as good or evil
There is no universal right or wrong
There is only you...
and the values you choose for yourself.

Where does the idea of "moral Law" come from?

Once upon a time, almost everyone believed in the existence of God. This God ruled over the world, He had absolute power over everything in it; and He had set down laws which all human beings had to obey. If they did not, they would suffer the most terrible of punishments at His hands. Naturally, most people obeyed the laws as well as they could, their fear of eternal suffering being stronger than their desire for anything forbidden. Because everyone lived according to the same laws, they could agree upon what "morality" was: it was the set of values decreed by God's laws. Thus, good and evil, right and wrong, were decided by the authority of God, which everyone accepted out of fear.

One day, people began to wake up and realize that there was no such thing as God after all. There was no scientific evidence to demonstrate his existence, and few people could see any point in having faith in the irrational any longer. God pretty much disappeared from the world; nobody feared him or his punishments anymore.

But a strange thing happened. Though these people had the courage to question God's existence, and even deny it to the ones who still believed in it, they didn't dare to question the morality that His laws had mandated. Perhaps it just didn't occur to them; everyone had been raised to hold the same beliefs about what was moral, and had come to speak about right and wrong in the same way, so maybe they just assumed it was obvious what was good and what was evil whether God was there to enforce it or not. Or perhaps people had become to used to living under these laws that they were afraid to even consider the possibility that the laws didn't exist any more than God did.

This left humanity in an unusual position: though there was no longer an authority to decree certain things absolutely right or wrong, they still accepted the idea that some things were right or wrong by nature. Though they no longer had faith in a deity, they still had faith in a universal moral code that everyone had to follow. Though they no longer believed in God, they were not yet courageous enough to stop obeying His orders; they had abolished the idea of a divine ruler, but not the divinity of His code of ethics. This unquestioning submission to the laws of a long-departed heavenly master has been a long nightmare from which the human race is only just now beginning to awaken.

God is dead—and with him, Moral law

Without God, there is no longer any objective standard by which to judge good and evil. This realization was very troubling to philosophers a few decades ago, but it hasn't really had much of an effect in other circles. Most people still seem to think that a universal morality can be grounded in something other than God's laws: in what is good for people, in what is good for society, in what we feel called upon to do. But explanations of why these standards necessarily constitute "universal moral law" are hard to come by. Usually, the arguments for the existence of moral law are emotional rather than rational: "But don't you think rape is wrong?" moralists ask, as if a shared opinion were a proof of universal truth. "But don't you think people need to believe in something greater than themselves?" they appeal, as if needing to believe in something can make it true. Occasionally, they even resort to threats: "but what would happen if everyone decided that there is no good or evil? Wouldn't we all kill each other?"

The real problem with the idea of universal moral law is that it asserts the existence of something that we have no way to know anything about. Believers in good and evil would have us believe that there are "moral truths"—that is, there are things that are morally true of this world, in the same way that it is true that the sky is blue. They claim that it is true of this world that murder is morally wrong just as it is true that water freezes at thirty two degrees. But we can investigate the freezing temperature of water scientifically: we can measure it and agree together that we have arrived at some kind of objective truth [that is, insofar as it is possible to speak of objective truth, for you postmodernist motherfuckers!]. On the other hand, what do we observe if we want to investigate whether it is true that murder is evil? There is no tablet of moral law on a mountaintop for us to consult, there are no commandments carved into the sky above us; all we have to go on are our own instincts and the words of a bunch of priests and other self-appointed moral experts, many of whom don't even agree. As for the words of the priests and moralists, if they can't offer any hard evidence from this world, why should we believe their claims? And regarding our instincts—if we feel that something is right or wrong, that may make it right or wrong for us, but that's not proof that it is universally good or evil. Thus, the idea that there are universal moral laws is mere superstition: it is a claim that things exist in this world which we can never actually experience or learn anything about. And we would do well not to waste our time wondering about things we can never know anything about. When two people fundamentally disagree over what is right or wrong, there is no way to resolve the debate. There is nothing in this world to which they can refer to see which one is correct—because there really are no universal moral laws, just personal evaluations. So the only important question is where your values come from: do you create them yourself, according to your own desires, or do you accept them from someone else... someone else who has disguised their opinions as "universal truths"?

Haven't you always been a little suspicious of the idea of universal moral truths, anyway? This world is filled with groups and individuals who want to convert you to their religions, their dogmas, their political agendas, their opinions. Of course they will tell you that one set of values is true for everybody, and of course they will tell you that their values are the correct ones. Once you're convinced that there is only one standard of right and wrong, they're only a step away from convincing you that their standard is the right one. How carefully we should approach those who would sell us the idea of "universal moral law," then! Their claim that morality is a matter of universal law is probably just a sneaky way to get us to accept their values rather than forging our own, which might conflict with theirs.

So, to protect ourselves from the superstitions of the moralists and the trickery of the evangelists, let us be done with the idea of moral law. Let us step forward into a new era, in which we will make values of our own rather than accepting moral laws out of fear and obedience. Let this be our new creed: There is no universal moral code that should dictate human behavior. There is no such thing as good or evil, there is no universal standard of right and wrong. Our values and morals come from us and belong to us, whether we like it or not; so we should claim them proudly for ourselves, as our own creations, rather than seeking some external justification for them.

But if there's no good or evil, if nothing has any intrinsic moral value, how do we know what to do?

Make your own good and evil. If there is no moral law standing over us, that means we're free—free to do whatever we want, free to be whatever we want, free to pursue our desires without feeling any guilt or shame about them. Figure out what it is you want in your life, and go for it; create whatever values are right for you, and live by them. It won't be easy, by any means; desires pull in different directions, they come and go without warning, so keeping up with them and choosing among them is a difficult task—of course obeying instructions is easier, less complicated. But if we just live our lives as we have been instructed to, the chances are very slim that we will get what we want out of life: each of us is different and has different needs, so how could one set of "moral truths" work for each of us? If we take responsibility for ourselves and each carve our own table of values, then we will have a fighting chance of attaining some measure of happiness. The old moral laws are left over from days when we lived in fearful submission to a nonexistent God, anyway; with their departure, we can rid ourselves of all the cowardice, submission, and superstition that has characterized our past.

Some misunderstand the claim that we should pursue our own desires to be mere hedonism. But it is not the fleeting, insubstantial desires of the typical libertine that we are speaking about here. It is the strongest, deepest, most lasting desires and inclinations of the individual: it is her most fundamental loves and hates that should shape her values. And the fact that there is no God to demand that we love one another or act virtuously does not mean that we should not do these things for our own sake, if we find them rewarding, which almost all of us do. But let us do what we do for our own sake, not out of obedience to some deity or moral code! But how can we justify acting on our ethics, if we can't base them on universal moral truths?

Morality has been something justified externally for so long that today we hardly know how to conceive of it in any other way. We have always had to claim that our values proceeded from something external to us, because basing values on our own desires was (not surprisingly!) branded evil by the preachers of moral law. Today we still feel instinctively that our actions must be justified by something outside of ourselves, something "greater" than ourselves—if not by God, then by moral law, state law, public opinion, justice, "love of man," etc. We have been so conditioned by centuries of asking permission to feel things and do things, of being forbidden to base any decisions on our own needs, that we still want to think we are obeying some higher power even when we act on our own desires and beliefs; somehow, it seems more defensible to act out of submission to some kind of authority than in the service of our own inclinations. We feel so ashamed of our own aspirations and desires that we would rather attribute our actions to something "higher" than them. But what could be greater than our own desires, what could possibly provide better justification for our actions? Should we be serving something external without consulting our desires, perhaps even against our desires?

This question of justification is where so many hardcore bands have gone wrong. They attack what they see as injustice not on the grounds that they don't want to see such things happen, but on the grounds that it is "morally wrong." By doing so, they seek the support of everyone who still believes in the fable of moral law, and they get to see themselves as servants of the Truth. These hardcore bands should not be taking advantage of popular delusions to make their points, but should be challenging assumptions and questioning traditions in everything they do. An improvement in, for example, animal rights, which is achieved in the name of justice and morality, is a step forward at the cost of two steps back: it solves one problem while reproducing and reinforcing another. Certainly such improvements could be fought for and attained on the grounds that they are desirable (nobody who truly considered it would really want to needlessly slaughter and mistreat animals, would they?), rather than with tactics leftover from Christian superstition. Unfortunately, because of centuries of conditioning, it feels so good to feel justified by some "higher force," to be obeying "moral law," to be enforcing "justice" and fighting "evil" that these bands get caught up in their role as moral enforcers and forget to question whether the idea of moral law makes sense in the first place. There is a sensation of power that comes from believing that one is serving a higher authority, the same one that attracts people to fascism. It's always tempting to paint any struggle as good against evil, right against wrong; but that is not just an oversimplification, it is a falsification: for no such things exist. We can act compassionately towards each other because we want to, not just because "morality dictates," you know! We don't need any justification from above to care about animals and humans, or to act to protect them. We need only to feel in our hearts that it is right, that it is right for us, to have all the reason we need. Thus we can justify acting on our ethics without basing them on moral truths simply by not being ashamed of our desires: by being proud enough of them to accept them for what they are, as the forces that drive us as individuals. And our own values might not be right for everyone, it's true; but they are all each of us has to go on, so we should dare to act on them rather than wishing for some impossible greater justification.

But what would happen if everyone decided that there is no good or evil?

Wouldn't we all kill each other?

This question presupposes that people refrain from killing each other only because they have been taught that it is evil to do so. Is humanity really so absolutely bloodthirsty and vicious that we would all rape and kill each other if we weren't restrained by superstition? It seems more likely to me that we desire to get along with each other at least as much as we desire to be destructive—don't you usually enjoy helping others more than you enjoy hurting them? Today, most people claim to believe that compassion and fairness are morally right, but this has done little to make the world into a compassionate and fair place. Might it not be true that we would act upon our natural inclinations to human decency more, rather than less, if we did not feel that charity and justice were obligatory? What would it really be worth, anyway, if we did all fulfill our "duty" to be good to each other, if it was only because we were obeying moral imperatives? Wouldn't it mean a lot more for us to treat each other with consideration because we want to, rather than because we feel required to? And if the abolition of the myth of moral law somehow causes more strife between human beings, won't that still be better than living as slaves to superstitions? If we make our own minds up about what our values are and how we will live according to them, we at least will have the chance to pursue our desires and perhaps enjoy life, even if we have to struggle against each other. But if we choose to live according to rules set for us by others, we sacrifice the chance to choose our destinies and pursue our dreams. No matter how smoothly we might get along in the shackles of moral law, is it worth the abdication of our self determination? I wouldn't have the heart to lie to a fellow human being and tell him he had to conform to some ethical mandate whether it was in his best interest or not, even if that lie would prevent a conflict between us. Because I care about human beings, I want them to be free to do what is right for them. Isn't that more important than mere peace on earth? Isn't freedom, even dangerous freedom, preferable to the safest slavery, to peace bought with ignorance, cowardice, and submission?

Besides, look back at our history. So much bloodshed, deception, and oppression has already been perpetrated in the name of right and wrong. The bloodiest wars have been fought between opponents who each thought they were fighting on the side of moral truth. The idea of moral law doesn't help us get along, it turns us against each other, to contend over whose moral law is the "true" one. There can be no real progress in human relations until everyone's perspectives on ethics and values are acknowledged; then we can finally begin to work out our differences and learn to live together, without fighting over the absolutely stupid question of whose values and desires are "right." For your own sake, for the sake of humanity, cast away the antiquated notions of good and evil and create your values for yourself!

Xvall
29th June 2005, 07:37
You write that?

Organic Revolution
29th June 2005, 07:45
helped write it.. collective effort

'Discourse Unlimited'
30th June 2005, 11:32
[that is, insofar as it is possible to speak of objective truth, for you postmodernist motherfuckers!]


Thanks, dude. :)
Not a bad little essay. A few points I'd like to raise, though...

1. The examples you use are incredibly eurocentric. Marx and Engels had the same problem, so you're in good company. ( :P ) But when you suggest: "Once upon a time, almost everyone believed in the existence of God", you ignore most of the far-Eastern religions which (as far as I can see) tend to venerate more than one God or Goddess; or, in fact, none at all.

2. If 'God' has been proven not to exist (which isn't the case, as I'm sure you are aware - lack of proof does not entail disproof), then there must be another reason for His 'presence' in the minds of so many people. Many orthodox Marxists have suggested that 'God' is a social creation - designed "by the masses, for the masses", in that it fills an (invented?) need for spirituality. If this is the case, could the moral code also have been created "by the people, for the people"? It certainly "makes sense", historically.

3. Isn't your appeal: "don't you usually enjoy helping others more than you enjoy hurting them?" based on what you'd like the world to be, rather than how it is? I mean, it's all very well blowing away all "superstition" and conferring primacy on "rationailty", but you can't then claim to be upholding ancient virtues mystically latent in the human condition! :D



But if we choose to live according to rules set for us by others, we sacrifice the chance to choose our destinies and pursue our dreams... [gap] Isn't freedom, even dangerous freedom, preferable to the safest slavery, to peace bought with ignorance, cowardice, and submission?


Very "romantically" put, comrade. But what happens, for instance, if I decide (not that I would - I hope) to arbitrarily go out and rape some pretty girl? Or beat up a guy I find annoying? If I determine my own moral code, who can tell me that I'm wrong? Of course, the pretty girl would most likely kick me in the nads and escape somehow; I'd probably end up getticg my ass kicked in a fight. But if you leave everything to the individual, if you grant "ultimate freedom", doesn't that basically mean: "might is right"? The strongest survive, because they're "bigger than everyone else"?

(I'm playing Devil's advocate here; what'll you say?)

redstar2000
1st July 2005, 17:31
Originally posted by rise up+--> (rise up)There can be no real progress in human relations until everyone's perspectives on ethics and values are acknowledged; then we can finally begin to work out our differences and learn to live together, without fighting over the absolutely stupid question of whose values and desires are "right." For your own sake, for the sake of humanity, cast away the antiquated notions of good and evil and create your values for yourself![/b]

Way way too subjective.

Most of the "antiquated notions of good and evil" are objectively wrong precisely because they are antiquated...they were invented for forms of class society that are, in the "west" at least, ancient history.

Because such values no longer "fit" modern conditions, they are dysfunctional...they create more human pain and suffering than they alleviate. When modern people attempt to implement those ancient values, they land in the shit.

Instead of "creating our own (personal) values", we should instead use our power of reason to create new collective values that make sense.

For example, "beating your kids" is not some kind of "personal choice" that people "ought" to be able to make; in the light of reason, it is just plain wrong...and a modern society has both a right and a duty to stop it, by any means necessary.

Why? Because it can be objectively demonstrated that people who are beaten as children show a high propensity to become violent adults...a deadly threat to everyone in society.

Whenever we consider a question involving "values", we should be asking ourselves what's the rational solution here?. Will this proposed "value" increase or decrease the net total of human suffering?


Originally posted by 'Discourse Unlimited'@
If 'God' has been proven not to exist (which isn't the case, as I'm sure you are aware - lack of proof does not entail disproof), then there must be another reason for His 'presence' in the minds of so many people.

You know better than that. A new hypothesis is not disproved by lack of evidence...time must be allowed to search for supporting evidence. Agnosticism is the valid response here.

The "supernatural hypothesis" has been around, in various forms, for all of recorded history...without a shred of reliable evidence in its favor.

Time's up! Absence of evidence is evidence of absence.

As to the origins of superstition, clearly there were several factors at work.

1. The general human desire for explanations of natural phenomena...and how to control them in such a way as to benefit (or reduce harm to) humans.

2. The realization among a few that most humans are gullible...if you can convince people that you have a "special relationship" with the "supernatural", they will give you part of their own wealth to secure "the blessings of the gods"...or at least to avert their curses. It's a lot easier than working for a living.

3. The realization among the earliest elites that religious belief is useful as a tool of social control. If you are a despot, then it's a good thing for you if people believe that killing despots is an act of defiance aimed at the gods themselves...and will inevitably provoke divine punishment.


'Discourse Unlimited'
Isn't your appeal: "don't you usually enjoy helping others more than you enjoy hurting them?" based on what you'd like the world to be, rather than how it is? I mean, it's all very well blowing away all "superstition" and conferring primacy on "rationality", but you can't then claim to be upholding ancient virtues mystically latent in the human condition!

I don't think there's anything "mystical" here. We evolved as social animals...in order to have survived, cooperation must have always outweighed competition and still does.

Competition is dramatic and spectacular...it gets into the history books and is almost always what we mean by the word "history". Nevertheless, most of the time most people are cooperating with each other...it's "what comes naturally" to us.

The Hobbsean "war of all against all" is a myth.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/223.gif

'Discourse Unlimited'
3rd July 2005, 02:04
Will this proposed "value" increase or decrease the net total of human suffering?


Just out of interest - are you a 'utilitarian'? Consider the following: if you could 'materially' improve the lives of 90 people, by 'materially' reducing the state of ten others to near-poverty, is this ok? I mean, there is a "net total benefit" to society... Isn't there? Or is it a case of minimising suffering - such that you can't justify causing 'pain'; it's more like "the best solution we can find in which no-one loses"... If so, doesn't that make decision taking awfully inflexible?



Absence of evidence is evidence of absence.


You know, there is no evidence to support most of the current theories about time and space - or, for that matter, Marxism! (Beyond the stuff we invented, and "interpreted"...) Are they then "null and void"? And what constitutes "evidence"? Newton's laws were verified through careful observation and analysis - "evidence" in your book?

The point I was making about God's 'invention', was that maybe the moral code that developed alongside "God" was also 'invented' - as I said, "by the people, for the people". Also, moral codes are not fixed; not even in a religious sense! Though the churches are all arch-conservative, by their nature, they are not unchanging. They tend to respond to public feeling, as well as creating much of it.

redstar2000
3rd July 2005, 03:15
Originally posted by 'Discourse Unlimited'
Just out of interest - are you a 'utilitarian'? Consider the following: if you could 'materially' improve the lives of 90 people, by 'materially' reducing the state of ten others to near-poverty, is this ok? I mean, there is a "net total benefit" to society... Isn't there? Or is it a case of minimising suffering - such that you can't justify causing 'pain'; it's more like "the best solution we can find in which no-one loses"... If so, doesn't that make decision taking awfully inflexible?

1. Isn't that what proletarian revolution will actually do? Raise up the many and reduce the few to conditions that they will certainly consider "near-poverty".

I see no problem with that.

2. That's probably the best idea "in the long run"...and how "flexible" decision-making will be in that context is speculative.


You know, there is no evidence to support most of the current theories about time and space - or, for that matter, Marxism!

I don't think you're being serious here.


Though the churches are all arch-conservative, by their nature, they are not unchanging. They tend to respond to public feeling, as well as creating much of it.

I think they sometimes tailor their costumes to fit prevailing fashions...but their inner "arch-conservatism" remains unaltered.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/223.gif

Publius
3rd July 2005, 13:29
Have you ever heard of consequentialism?

Is it better for humans to make up morality and play nice, than to truly know there is no morality, and act viciously (Ignoring the question of whether we would act visciously)?

Your polemic against religion missed a key point: religion was once necessary.

The rules and tenets of religions were social apparatuses, formed by the collective need of the members of that group.

The rules of morality existed because, at the time, they were very good for society. The rules regarding sex promoted safer sex, which benefitted the tribe as a whole, laws keeping families together, which promoted stability, and laws prohibiting sexual activity that would seem to ostracize any member from the group, causing divisions in the tribe.

Every single moral tenent of every religion can be described this way.

With todays knowledge and technology, many of these tenets can be thrown away. Eating pork is no longer a threat to our health, so we don't need to outlaw it.

But with morality, does throwing it away benefit humanity at all?

I'm not a huge believer in a dictated morality, though I believe in rights, but don't the positive effects of morality make it a worthwhile delusion?

What good is the truth, if the truth leads to nothing but death, rape and suffering?

Of course, now we get into the question of whether forced morality is morality at all, a la a Clockwork Orange.

Your philosophy doesn't blend with marxism, it's quite simply nihilism.

Communism, the proletariat, the demos? FUCK THEM! They don't matter.


To the basic question, do you think humans have a right to live life how they want to, free from you and your 'morality'?

Do I have the right to swing my fist as long as I don't hit your face, or can I beat the shit out of you, if my 'morality' dictates it?

The paper was very good on prosletyzing, but I thought it lacked any workable solutions.

It seemed to say, "Just cast off morality, and all this good stuff will follow!" when the dubious claim was never established.

And how can you say that morality is not real, and then spout of these absurd notions about how 'good' man naturally is?

You say there is no morality, but once we cast off morality, man will act exactly like the ideals that very morality ascribed?

How does that work?


I can't really say I have any answers, I don't think any (good ones) exist, but I don't like the concept.

redstar2000
3rd July 2005, 15:24
Originally posted by Publius
But with morality, does throwing it away benefit humanity at all?

I'm not a huge believer in a dictated morality, though I believe in rights, but don't the positive effects of morality make it a worthwhile delusion?

The problem is that if one is going to invoke "morality" as some sort of "general principle", then it is difficult to avoid "basing it" on some kind of supernatural (superstitious) "command".

And there is no reasonable argument that one can make in favor of superstition or its "benefits" now.

Therefore, I think it's well to retire the word "morality"...as its consequences are pretty much all negative.

On the other hand, the word "values" has a more neutral flavor...we can, in principle, collectively decide what values we want to promote and what values we want to discourage on rational grounds.

And since they "come from us", we can alter or abolish them as seems appropriate to us depending on circumstances...without concerning ourselves with the opinions of the gods.

This seems like "a better way to go".

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/223.gif

Bazarov0
3rd July 2005, 17:36
Nice article. But you could still go farther.

There is no such thing as good or evil
There is no universal right or wrong
There is only you...
and the values you choose for yourself.There is no right or wrong either, the relativity of what is right or wrong makes there contradictions between each of them, it can then be recognized that what is called right or wrong is only subjective and that you can make any right or wrong you want but that won't make it true. It can in your mind though. "...only you...and the values you choose for yourself." What if one recognizes that all value is indulgence in subjective nothingness and holds no objective substance whatsoever and that what you feel doesn't make it true it may make you feel good about yourself if you use your own feelings to make values, but the values can still have contradictions the world over and you can realize you can make any value you want because it is only in your head. Of course value is inescapable and for this reason, I use it to choose between desicions, but I do reject traditional values.

Certainly such improvements could be fought for and attained on the grounds that they are desirable (nobody who truly considered it would really want to needlessly slaughter and mistreat animals, would they?) This is your own perception of people, this doesn't mean this value of animals is universal. Many are sadistic towards animals and let them be, people 'mistreat' other people, let them. But what is mistreating is based on value which only has a subjective basis which is indulgence in nothingness.

We can act compassionately towards each other because we want to, not just because "morality dictates," you know!What is 'compassionately' is dictated on values, which again are subjective, which means that anyone can make their own values. I myself believe don't believe in any such thing as called compassion because what is better or what is worse for humans only holds a basis in the mind which holds no objective constant substance, it is faith in nothing.

We need only to feel in our hearts that it is right, that it is right for us, to have all the reason we need. Thus we can justify acting on our ethics without basing them on moral truths simply by not being ashamed of our desires: by being proud enough of them to accept them for what they are, as the forces that drive us as individuals. And our own values might not be right for everyone, it's true; but they are all each of us has to go on, so we should dare to act on them rather than wishing for some impossible greater justification. Feeling it in your hearts that something is right sounds pretty egotistical to me if your willing to base your feelings on what should be done. Remember that when creating values and ethics in your head for yourself, psychological masochism can easily be bred as one doesn't want to violate there own standards, is this following your desires? I think not. If you think justifying our own ethics can be based on our own feelings, you need a reality check my friend. Because all those ethics are in your head, all those values are in your head, and what you call 'justified' and 'unjustified' is in your head as well. I want to destroy civilization, this is not justified or unjustified in my mind, because that would require the concoction of value which again is only in the head and has no effect whatsoever on the universe or any of laws of nature, thus it is meaningless and I only desire it.

It seems more likely to me that we desire to get along with each other at least as much as we desire to be destructive—don't you usually enjoy helping others more than you enjoy hurting them?I beg to differ.


Today, most people claim to believe that compassion and fairness are morally right, but this has done little to make the world into a compassionate and fair placeOh, but what is compassion and fairness? Is there any set standards for these values? No. All value again, is made in your head, therefore because it is subjective as to what is called better for humans you can make any values you want but there still only in your own head. When the unabomber sent people bombs in their mail and killed a bunch of people, he felt he was to doing something that would help humanity, he wanted to go back to primitive lifestyle. This is one example of the idiocy of deluding yourself that what values you have, have a basis for how the world should be. Let desire be your reason for doing things instead of deluding yourself with longterm and traditional values which you accept yourself from society.

Wouldn't it mean a lot more for us to treat each other with consideration because we want to, rather than because we feel required to? I'm not in that 'us' group. Your values of what is considerate do not apply to me, because I will not go so far as to have faith in the longterm of subjective delusion. The contradictions that come up with people around the world who keep traditional values, may have other ways of saying what is 'considerate', take Bush for example in his deluded fantasy world. He wants to be 'considerate' in his own mind, to mega corporations. This doesn't mean he is being considerate it just means he is being considerate in his own mind as everyone who makes up values and definitions for what is considerate is creating it in there mind as well.
For your own sake, for the sake of humanity, cast away the antiquated notions of good and evil and create your values for yourself! Go farther and realize the devaluation of all value. And make your desicions based on your own desires along with not indulging too much in subjective nothingness, and destroy your previous traditional values!
For example, "beating your kids" is not some kind of "personal choice" that people "ought" to be able to make; in the light of reason, it is just plain wrong...and a modern society has both a right and a duty to stop it, by any means necessary.

Why? Because it can be objectively demonstrated that people who are beaten as children show a high propensity to become violent adults...a deadly threat to everyone in society.

Whenever we consider a question involving "values", we should be asking ourselves what's the rational solution here?. Will this proposed "value" increase or decrease the net total of human suffering?
Your saying all this on the basis that everyone should have value in the whole society, but this is subjective. And why is it wrong that they become violent adults and damage society? This basis you have is only predicated on your value in the society and your own ethics which are subjectively made, and have no objective basis.
I don't think there's anything "mystical" here. We evolved as social animals...in order to have survived, cooperation must have always outweighed competition and still does.

Competition is dramatic and spectacular...it gets into the history books and is almost always what we mean by the word "history". Nevertheless, most of the time most people are cooperating with each other...it's "what comes naturally" to us.You could say that many people cooperate, but that doesn't give any justification for saying all people must cooperate and people who do should be punished because nothing is justified or unjustified, all these values you make are in your head and have no objective, constant substance whatsoever.
Consider the following: if you could 'materially' improve the lives of 90 people, by 'materially' reducing the state of ten others to near-poverty, is this ok? I mean, there is a "net total benefit" to society... Isn't there? Or is it a case of minimising suffering - such that you can't justify causing 'pain'; it's more like "the best solution we can find in which no-one loses"... If so, doesn't that make decision taking awfully inflexible?What is ok is based on subjective value. Why does a "net total benefit" to society matter, when nothing matters? Why do you want to try to minimise suffering? why do we need to go against it? Would be here if it wasn't for a previous mass extinction? Destruction is Creation.

Your polemic against religion missed a key point: religion was once necessary.What is necessary is based on your indulgence in subjective nothingness.
The rules and tenets of religions were social apparatuses, formed by the collective need of the members of that group.How are we to say what is the need of members of the group? This only has any basis in your mind which is predicated on values that have no meaning and only exist in your mind.
The rules of morality existed because, at the time, they were very good for society.How can you say what is good for society when this only has a basis in subjective nothingness?
The rules regarding sex promoted safer sex, which benefitted the tribe as a whole, laws keeping families together, which promoted stability, and laws prohibiting sexual activity that would seem to ostracize any member from the group, causing divisions in the tribe.Why do we need stability. I myself would rather go towards chaos, but this is my desire, not something I am saying that we need.
But with morality, does throwing it away benefit humanity at all?

I'm not a huge believer in a dictated morality, though I believe in rights, but don't the positive effects of morality make it a worthwhile delusion?How can we say what benefits humanity and what doesn't? "positive effects" of morality? Are you saying that death, pain and suffering are bad? When a lot of things we have are predicated on those things? Again, your values of what 'benefit' humanity and what 'hurt' humanity only have a basis in your head.
To the basic question, do you think humans have a right to live life how they want to, free from you and your 'morality'?

Do I have the right to swing my fist as long as I don't hit your face, or can I beat the shit out of you, if my 'morality' dictates it? No one has the right to do anything and everyone has the right to do anything. Nothing is justified or unjustified.
Your philosophy doesn't blend with marxism, it's quite simply nihilism.NO. I am a nihilist myself and this article is definetley not Nihilism. This article puts faith in, and says theres a need for people making there own longterm and absolute values. Nihilism rejects this. I'll state my own definition: Extreme Skepticism, a devaluation of all value, rejection of religion, ideology, philosophy, ethics, morality, traditional value, absolute value...and faith is recognized as indulgence in subjective nothingness.

I know I'm gonna get pounded with rebuttals for this...

redstar2000
3rd July 2005, 18:15
Originally posted by Bazarov0
Your saying all this on the basis that everyone should have value in the whole society, but this is subjective. And why is it wrong that they become violent adults and damage society? This basis you have is only predicated on your value in the society and your own ethics which are subjectively made, and have no objective basis.

The presence of violent adults in society means that non-violent adults and all children must live in fear of them.

That is a shitty way to live.

Consequently, it is in our objective collective interests to prevent violent adults from emerging whenever and however we can.


You could say that many people cooperate, but that doesn't give any justification for saying all people must cooperate and people who [don't] should be punished because nothing is justified or unjustified, all these values you make are in your head and have no objective, constant substance whatsoever.

If individuals have the ability to determine their own objective self-interests, why not collectives?

Granted that it's "not easy", it doesn't seem to me to be "un-doable".


Are you saying that death, pain and suffering are bad?

Yes.


I know I'm gonna get pounded with rebuttals for this...

I thought you were relatively restrained...but wait until you come out in favor of "death, pain, and suffering".

And you are going to do that, aren't you? :lol:

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/223.gif

Publius
3rd July 2005, 18:49
What is necessary is based on your indulgence in subjective nothingness.

What is necessary is self-evident.

Not dying is good, for example. Religion, in many ways, prevented people from dying (While killing others).

It doesn't matter that it was all made-up hocus pocus, the fact that people followed the rules, and some of the rules happend to be good, made religion a necessity.

Ancient life was built upon it, and would not have been as succesful if not for it.


How are we to say what is the need of members of the group? This only has any basis in your mind which is predicated on values that have no meaning and only exist in your mind.

Certain values can be defined.

Whats good for the group is exactly that.

Having more, stronger, faster male hunters is good for the tribe.

Not having all the members of the tribe ill is good for the whole.

Obviously there is significant grey area, but the basic tenets CAN be defined, for any moral or legal system.

And the religion predicated it's own need: you needed to believe in it to be allowed to live.

Now is this construct 'subjective' in the sense that it is not written in stone? Yes, but the question is does it serve a good purpose?


How can you say what is good for society when this only has a basis in subjective nothingness?

Society's continued existance and good standing is good for society, is it not?



Why do we need stability. I myself would rather go towards chaos, but this is my desire, not something I am saying that we need.[quote]

Why do we need stability?

Name for me one city that was built out of chaos.

Name for me one social construct built on chaos, that has functioned.

Name for me one society that worked well while embracing chaos?

Chaos cannot work because it's chaotic:

"We need that lumber by 3:30 to finish the building for the day Steve."

"FUCK YOU JOHN! I'M GONNA GO RAPE SOME OLD WOMEN!"

is not the recipe for a successful society.

Without stability, you cannot have anything; I could simply kill you and take it.

[quote]How can we say what benefits humanity and what doesn't? "positive effects" of morality? Are you saying that death, pain and suffering are bad? When a lot of things we have are predicated on those things? Again, your values of what 'benefit' humanity and what 'hurt' humanity only have a basis in your head.

I want to be reasonably sure that I won't be killed or assualted. Do you? Doesn't everyone?

To achieve this, it would be most useful to set up a system of laws that prevented this from happening, do you agree?

In order to solidify this law, we have to make it abolute, not subjective, correct?

You very well may be right; I agree that morality is subjective, but without a firm basis for society, the rule of law, nothing can function.

Some things are wrong, in the broad sense that they accomplish nothing, other pain and perverse pleasure for yourself.

Ayn Rand said that happiness wasn't the means to an end, it was the end.

Ayn Rand was a horrible philosopher.

Your own happiness exists only so far as it contacts the sphere of another's happiness.

You do not have the right to kill, just because there is no morality, because that person has the right to claim their own right to life.

If we are all eqaul in standing, your moral choice cannot precede mine. As such, law has to prevent and rectify these breaches of moral code.


No one has the right to do anything and everyone has the right to do anything. Nothing is justified or unjustified.

Man has the right and the ability to define his own morality, and for it to be respected.

I have the right to life because I say I do, I believe I do, and I will choose actions that uphold it.

It is wrong to kill me, because I say it's wrong.

I am able to, subjectively, define my own rights, as are you.

You do not have the right to define MY rights.

As such, you cannot offend my rights, as long as my rights don't offend yours.

I can claim a right to life, but I can't claim a right to your life. I can claim a right to my property, but not to your property.


NO. I am a nihilist myself and this article is definetley not Nihilism. This article puts faith in, and says theres a need for people making there own longterm and absolute values. Nihilism rejects this. I'll state my own definition: Extreme Skepticism, a devaluation of all value, rejection of religion, ideology, philosophy, ethics, morality, traditional value, absolute value...and faith is recognized as indulgence in subjective nothingness.

I know I'm gonna get pounded with rebuttals for this...

What good are your values when they don't have to respected?

You need a rule of law, not popularly mandated by the way, to defend the rights that people claim for themselves.

Morality is only subjective in the absolute sense;it is absolute in the subjective sense.

Get it?