Just in case you haven't pissed off enough Zionists...

[Conghaileach]

http://davesweb.cnchost.com/

Having then pissed off a few Catholics in the crowd, let's turn our attention to the subject of Zionism, which will undoubtedly draw the usual amount of hate mail from those who like to cry "anti-semitism." You know who you are. You're the ones who equate any attack on the policies of the Zionist government of Israel with an attack on the religion of Judaism.
But guess what? You're all full of shit. The truth is that there is an enormous difference between Zionism and Judaism. Judaism is a religion, whereas Zionism is essentially a form of fascism. I have no problem with the practice of any religion. But I do have a big problem with the practice of overt fascism, particularly when the perpetrators of that practice cast themselves as the victims of persecution so as to cut off any meaningful debate on the real issues.
And believe it or not, so do a good many people of the Jewish faith. But you don't have to take my word for it.
Here is a website hosted by Jews United Against Zionism: http://www.netureikarta.org/
Here's a book entitled Zionism In the Age of the Dictators: A Reappraisal: http://www.codoh.com/zionweb/zizad/zizad.html
And here is another entitled The Hidden History of Zionism: http://www.balkanunity.org/mideast/english/zionism/
And yet another entitled The History of the Palestine-Israel Conflict:http://www.cactus48.com/truth.html
And here is a page with links to a number of Jewish anti-Zionist websites: http://www.inin.net/jewnotzionist.htm
So if you want to send hate mail accusing someone of being anti-semitic, or of supporting terrorism, or of siding with suicide bombers, go ahead and send it to any of those sites. They will appreciate hearing from you. As will journalist Robert Fisk. Maybe you can even threaten his life, as the self-important, vastly-overrated actor John Malkovich has done. Here Mr. Fisk discusses the venomous e-mails he has been receiving for daring to tell the truth about the Israeli/Palestinian situation: http://argument.independent.co.uk/commenta...sp?story=294787 (http://argument.independent.co.uk/commentators/story.jsp?story=294787)
Here is one other thing to consider: Israel pretty much does what Washington tells it to do (in private that is; I'm not talking here about the statements issued from Washington for public consumption). And what enables Israel to do Washington's bidding is a vast arsenal of U.S.-supplied weaponry -- weaponry that is paid for with the tax dollars of rank-and-file Americans, and without which there would be no occupied territories, and no decimated refugee camps.
And who exactly is it in Washington that is currently drafting U.S. policy and supplying U.S. arms? It is, of course, members of the Bush mob. And what exactly was the source of the Bush family's considerable wealth? Last time I checked, it came from direct complicity in funding the rise and reign of the Third Reich: http://www.clamormagazine.org/issue14.3_feature.html

If that site doesn't work, and you'd like to read, "Heir to the Holocaust: Prescott Bush, 1.5 million dollars and Auchwitz: How the Bush Family Wealth is Connected to the Jewish Holocaust" by Toby Rogers, then clik here: http://www.clamormagazine.org/issue14.html and then scroll down to the title.

[Blasphemy]

when jews who survived the nazi holocaust in europe speak out against zionism, i have no problem with it. what does bother me, is when people who have never experienced such persecution and hate just because of their religion speak out against it.

millions of european jews have been destroyed by the nazis, and there was no one to protect them. only after 6 millions jews were murdered, the allies marched. there was no one to hear the cry, no one to smell the burned bodies. and when the nightmare was finally over, the survivors needed a place to go to. they couldn't go back to their homes in germany, poland and the rest of europe because they had nothing there. some countries agreed to accept a number of survivors, but the majority had to place to go to. the only place they did have, is their hisotric homeland, the place where their religion and culture were created and formed. they felt that by returning to that historic homeland and building a nation of their own, where they will be safe from antisemetism and persection. that is how israel was created. it was founded on the ashes of the jewish people burned by the nazis. it was built on the thousands of people buried alive by the nazis. it is easy to attack zionism as fascism from far away, but can you all dare to say that to someone who lived throught the holocaust? can you say to someone who has lost all his family and lived for years in the ghetto that he doesn't deserve a nation of his own, where he can be jewish without fearing death? can you tell this man, that the notion that he deserves justice is actually racist? if you can do it, i pitty you, for you have no feelings. if you can't, stop attacking zionism.

[BARBUDO]

ZIONISM =RACISM

read the Balfour Declaration!

[new democracy]

Blasphemy, for someone that lives in israel you are ignoring the apartheid it created. and don't go to "tolerant zionism" because i can tell you that if meretz are tolerant for everyone is sharon. and it is a well known fact that the founders of zionism were wealthy jews, that couldn't stand the fact that the jewish workers were mostly socialists and communists. when hertzel ralked to the king of germany(i don't remember his name)he said that he is trying to keep jews away from revolutionary parties.

[Reuben]

ND that was the Tsar. Hertzel promised to keep russian jews away from revolutionary activity if the Tsar supported the zionist project.

Your right though. Up until the war most jewish workers did not support zionism strongly. IN the polish municipal elections of 39 70 % of jews voted for the BUnd!!! while the zionists had little support

[new democracy]

i know he met with the tzar and his interior minister, Wjatscheslaw Plehwe, the man believed responsible for the notorious massacre of Jews at Kishinev. Plehwe liked zionism so much because that a jewish state will be a place for throwing 7 million russain jews. but i lately read that he said that he is preventing jews from revvolutionary activity also to the king of germany(keizer if i am not mistaken).

[BOZG]

Having then pissed off a few Catholics in the crowd, let's turn our attention to the subject of Zionism, which will undoubtedly draw the usual amount of hate mail from those who like to cry "anti-semitism." You know who you are. You're the ones who equate any attack on the policies of the Zionist government of Israel with an attack on the religion of Judaism.

I am so sick of that attitude. In my opinion it is an insult to the people who suffered during the holocaust. The holocaust was an event which rightly shocked the world and should not be forgotten about but there is no reason to manipulate this event to your further a racist doctrine. There was a situation over here recently, where a hotel owner, refused to allow an Israeli man, who was invited to this country by the Chief of Mission in the Israeli embassy, to stay at his hotel. The Israeli man, then started saying that people were forgetting about the holocaust etc etc. It actually makes me quite sick.

[Reuben]

oh sorry ND, that i think would have been Keizer Willhelm who said that 'the jew cannot be a true patriot and must be contained by pogroms if necessary'

Real die hard patriots these zionists (sarcastically0

Agree very much with BOZG

[new democracy]

Quote: from Reuben on 10:59 pm on Oct. 20, 2002
that i think would have been Keizer Willhelm who said that 'the jew cannot be a true patriot and must be contained by pogroms if necessary'
that was the one. and then the zionists say that anti zionism is the same as anti semitism.

[Baltic]

Irony

The person who inadvertently gave the Jews all the excuses and credibility to establish Israel was Adolf Hitler.

Baltic

[Saoirse]

Quote: from Blasphemy on 1:19 pm on Oct. 19, 2002
millions of european jews have been destroyed by the nazis, and there was no one to protect them. only after 6 millions jews were murdered, the allies marched. there was no one to hear the cry, no one to smell the burned bodies.

No one on this site condones the murder of millions of Jews by the Nazis Blasphemy. But most of them died as the war was coming to an end and the Allies had long been marching. I know it may seem to be a bit insensitive to be a bit blunt but history is history and a fact is a fact. There have been worse holocosts in the world aswell they just don't get any of the attention that the Jewish one does.
wouldn't you think that after this horrible thing happened to the Jewish people that they would shun violence and detest facism?
Instead they embrace it

[new democracy]

Quote: from Saoirse on 9:21 pm on Oct. 24, 2002
[quote][b]wouldn't you think that after this horrible thing happened to the Jewish people that they would shun violence and detest facism?
Instead they embrace it
shut up, i am jewish and i never embraced fascism. i will agree with you that there were more horrible holocosts and they should get attention, but from the way you talk you seem to be another guy which is completely biased when it comes to the arab israeli conflict.

[Saoirse]

probably should have said 'Instead most seem to embrace it' or something like that..
Because I support the Palestinian cause I'm biased?? Is that what you think? I've read a lot on the subject and follow the conflict as closely as I can. I have looked at the facts and drawn a conclusion- that doesn't mean I'm biased

[new democracy]

if you can't see that the other side did bad thing too, you are biased.

[Saoirse]

I can see what the 'other side' do alright and I abhor attacks on civilians- don't get me wrong here. But I still believe that the Palestinians are being mercilessly oppressed by Isreal and that their cause is a just one.
It's hard to fight tanks and Planes with stones and a few rifles.
was Che biased for supporting Palestine?

[Che Entifada]

I dont want to say that there is dozens of evidences that were published proofing that the number of the jews who had been killed in that period are greatly less than 1 million .. and that most of the writers and researchers were killed or jailed or expeled or ....

Anyways .. i will agree (just instantly) that the jews had a bad time .. Does it give them the right to kill and invade the others !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
IF they realy had been treated badly ... i dont think they would be able to kill anybody ... but they did , and they still doing that ..

[Mazdak]

What nonsense. How could anyone non jewish even look at Judaism with respect. It is one of the most grotesque religions in the world. It can be equated with Mein Kampf, as both talk of chosen people. And both books caused genocides. Mein Kampf caused one, the Old Testament caused hundreds, maybe thousands. It is a rogue religion and should be exterminated at all costs. (Note- i didnt say anything against JEWS, only their filthy perverted religion). The only jews i have a problem with are the haccids.

[Communist Chris]

I think fuck facism!! Fuck nazis!! Fuck everbody who blame the jews for their problems!! I have jewish blood! I think that no one has the right to critize a person by there religon! I think that the everybody should leave the state of Israel alone!

[James]

millions of european jews have been destroyed by the nazis, and there was no one to protect them. only after 6 millions jews were murdered, the allies marched. there was no one to hear the cry, no one to smell the burned bodies.

You mean the three guys (churchill, FDR and stalin) didn't do anything...many individuals fought, and tried to help.

[Mazdak]

Communist Chris, stop ranting. Typing out your ass isnt good debate.

[Reuben]

i am an anti-zionist but one who is disgusted by the anti-semitism and holocaust revisionism on this thread. I am ashamed to call people such as saorise (who makes general attacks on the jews) fellow antizionists.

[Blasphemy]

jesus, you guys are totally twisting my words without even noticing it.

did i ever say that israel as the right to kill palestinians because of the holocaust? no, but it's comfortable for you to say that i said it...

i said i support zionism, because the jewish people deserve a homeland after everything they've gone through. it has nothing to do with the palestinians. they deserve a land where they can practice a jewish lifestyle without fearing persecution.

zionism has nothing to do with the palestinians. the survivors of the holocaust came to israel because they had no other place to go to. they had nothing in europe, and most countries weren't willing to accept a large number of jews. where do you want them to go? they had nothing, so they returned to their historic homeland, because that was the only place they had.

i'm not justifying the fucking occupation, although you really want me to, so you can continue your stupid attacks on zionism. but, too bad for you, zionism does not say "kill the palestinians". zionism actually says "live side by side with the palestinians".

[Baltic]

3 million people have died in central Africa in the past decade, they don't have money or clout so it means F### all.

Baltic

[Reuben]

whats that meant to mean????

The people who died in the holocaust were generally poor east european jews who didnt have any money or clout themselves.

[Baltic]

It means the Jews have clout. Doh!

F### all to do with some poor scroat in Eastern Europe in 1940+

But American Congress now.

As it is the Israelis want America to bale them out to the tune of 10 Billion dollars as the infatada has cost them dear.

The American congress is supporting a terrorist state.

Not the first time

Yeh. One mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist.

Thank god there is a site where you can say naughty things about the Jews without getting cut off.

Baltic

Chris

[Reuben]

do you honestly think that the reason why the holocaust is recognized is because 'jews have clout', of course it has nothing to do with being one of the most shocking and horrific events of the century.

I aslo think you should be aware that belief abbout 'jewish clut' is greatly exxagerated due to belief in the International Jewish Conspiracy which i hope you reject.

I dont know what you mean by saying 'you can say naughty things about jews' but if you mean you can make general attacks on 'the Jews' (or any other ethnic group) then that is not tolerated on this site.

Anit-zionism is of course supportted quite rightly by the great mass of members

[new democracy]

Baltic and Che Entifada, you make me sick. yes, the holocaust never happened and i am controlling the banks, the media, i control dubya, i control blair, i control castro, i control the corporations, and thanks to my alliance with the masons i am about to control the world. fucking anti semite ****s. and Baltic, by forum rules saying "naughty" things is not allowed.

[KickMcCann]

Look at yourselves, a bunch of Leftist-Internationalists geting intangled and taking sides in a battle about religion, nationality, social status, and money.
If this is what being an Internationalist is all about, then I am ashamed to call myself one.

Do you want to be on the side of good? Do you want to take the high route? Then I suggest that all of you take a step back from it all, take some deep breaths, and provide yourselves with a better, more thorough analysis of the conflict.
The best solution is one in which all the people are better off. Not the Jews win, not the Palestinians win; but everybody wins. You can find a solution that betters both sides, but you must be willing to think outside the mindset that has been soo prevalent in this conflict. You must think up ideas that have yet to be discovered. This war can all be over, we just have to use are heads and stop acting like children.

[Blasphemy]

of course it can be over, but people are more concerned in attacking zionism and israel so they don't have time to suggest practical solutions. they're busy screaming "israel is fascist!" and "zionism is evil", so instead of learning to accept zionism as a real thing that will not perish soon, they are attacking it constantly.
zionism exists. wether you like it or not, israel is here to stay. so let's try and think about a fair and just solution.

i can offer mine as a start:
1. israel allows the palestinians to hold general, democratic elections for chairman of the palestinian authority.
2. israel and the new elected president start negotiations.
3. israel evacuates the isolated jewish settlements in the palestinian territories, while annexing those who have territorial continuity with israel.
4. meanwhile, the PA does everything to disarm the terrorist organizations, arrest wanted terrorists and build a police force, all with israeli aid.
5. israel starts to withdraw from the territories gradually, according to the oslo agreement, signed by Yitzhak Rabin and Yasser Arafat in 1993.
6. an electronic fence is built on the border decided upon by israel and the PA.
7. israel helps the palestinian refugees to resettle in the palestinian territories.
8. the palestinian president announces independance, and a new palestinian state is founded on the west bank and the gaza strip.

[Reuben]

Two questions blasphemy

1) why should palestinians not have the right of return to israel, the who comprises much of the territory from which the palestinains were ethnicaly cleansed?


2) why is it legitimate for Israel to annex settlements which are connected to israel, when they wer created out a hugely disproportionate amounts of palestinian land (in relation to how many people the land supports) under the conditions of an illegal occuppation with no other motive than to create facts which would further Israels illegitimate territorial claim?

[Reuben]

Kick McCann, i hope you are not refferring to new democracy and I as we are both jews who have put forward antizionist positions which in most politicalscircles would be considered extermely pro palestine. Is this indicative of nationalism to you?

[new democracy]

Blasphemy, you didn't realize my position. i oppose it not only because the kind of apartheid it created but also because of another reason. zionism, just like every kind of nationalism, is a bourgeoisie ideology designed to separate the working class. herzl came from a rich family. he saw how jewish workers are attracted to socialism and commnism and he just couldn't stand it. when it was invented the jewish working class did the right thing: reject it!!!! they decided to stick with non jews workers. also, zionism have so much stupid ideas. by zionism every gentile is naturally anti semite, so jews must have a state. zionism lso said that israel is a "jewish state" and not a "everybody who lives here" state. second, what about herzl connections with the tzar, and the nazi-zionist connection!?(see "Petition to boycott Israeli dance during Belfast Festival" thread)

[Blasphemy]

ND, at first, the zionist movement in europe was in the fringes of the jewish society, and most jews were in fact communist, and chose to try and be a part of the society in which they were living.
history has taught us that it doesn't work. the jews did everything to be a part of the german society, but the people chose to crown an anti-semite as the prime-minister, and the holocaust began.
anti-semetic regimes charactarized many countries in europe, and that goes to show that society didn't allow the jews to integrate. it further alienated them and persecuted them.
after the holocaust, the jewish people understood that they can not stay in europe, and they most come to israel, so they can be free of anti semetism, racism and persecution. zionism thus became mainstream, because everything else failed.

saying that zionism is a bourgeoisie ideology shows your lack of understanding. when young european jews immigrated to israel in the 19th and the beginning of the 20th century, they came out of a zionist ideology, and built the kibbutzim - communist communes. these people left their rich houses in europe, and came to live in shacks along with the cows in an agricultural based communist commune.

reuben, the answers for the questions you presented:

1. the places which used to belong to palestinians are now occupied by jewish israelis, who with inhereted the places years ago, or bought them from others. these are not the people who drove the palestinians off the land, so why should they pay for the crimes of others? the children living in those houses did nothing to no-one, and you can't tell them that they have to leave because 60 years ago the house belonged to someone else.

2. settlements which are connected to israel are very large towns and cities, some having more that 20,000 people. do you think it's practical moving thousands and thousands of people from their homes, when you can simply annex the area, while preserving territorial continuity. let's be pragmatic...

[new democracy]

Blasphemy, i know about the kibbutz, my mother grow in one and i often came to visit there. it doesn't matter if they were based on communist organization structure, the fact that zionist movement created a state which separate workers from each other make it bourgeoisie. just like every kind of nationalism. and the way you talk show us what iis one of the basic foundations of zionism: all gentiles are anti semite. never trust them. you said that hitler was CHOSEN by the people. learn some history. hitler was was put in his position by the elected president. he has never been chosen, unless you count the election where he got 99% of the votes. the fact it was such a big number show it was a fraud. and if gentiles are naturally anti semite, how come every time there is a anti semite graffiti in some american town it is met with public revulsion? and you didn'tr reply to what i said about nazi-zionist connection.

(Edited by new democracy at 4:22 pm on Oct. 27, 2002)


(Edited by new democracy at 5:19 pm on Oct. 27, 2002)

[Blasphemy]

the kibbutz isn't only based on a communist organization structure, but around communist [/b]ideology[/b]. if you ever researched about the aaliyahs, you would know that the jewish youth in eastern europe wanted to create a new kind of jew - the hard working, fighting, socialist jew. they came to israel out of a zionist ideology, to settle the land and create socialist communes - the kibbutzim.

zionism doesn't talk about antisemetism. it talks about self determination for the jewish people, because, as i've said before, everything else fails. when the jews tried to integrate in society, they were welcomed by pogroms.

hitler was elected by the people, i just can't remeber the guy he ran against. he was elected by a very narrow margin, but the german people wanted him to be their leader. the hatred for the jews was real, not something dictated by the regime. fact is that if hitler's anti semetic preaching were not accepted by the public, he would have gotten rid of it, and choose another startegy. but the people gladly listened about the evil jews and their plots to take over the world.

[new democracy]

hitler wasn't elected, read history books. and the social democrats and the communists which had a strong position against anti semitism had much more votes. when you are saying "jews tried to integrate into society and were welcomed by pogroms", you just show again the zionist idea of "never trust the gentiles". zionism is a theory designed to separate workers from each other, just like every kind of nationalism. you still didn't reply to what i said about zionist-nazi connection(see Petition to boycott Israeli dance during Belfast Festival" thread). zionism is an anti working class movement, because it promote the separation of jewish workers other workers. herzl himself said that he is keeping the jews from revolutionary parties. you are saying "jewish workers cannot stick together with other workers, since they are anti semite(even though the jews that were active in the working class movement were not treated anti semite by other workers)." i know kibutzes are based on communist ideology, i actually found a few days ago in my house a poster of stalin that my mother kept from the days she lives in the kibuzts(no mazdak, my mother is not a stalinist!!!!!! i don't think i can upload it, but i will try). if non jews are not naturally anti semite, why do we need a jewish state? also, explain the twisted logic that says that jews from everywhere can come to israel and become citizens while palestinians refugees that actually LIVED here can become citizens. what kind of country in the world is saying "we are for one nationality only"? and you still didn't said anything about the nazi-zionist connection and zionist cooperation with other anti semite elements. how can someone can say he is defneding jews from anti semitism and yet cooperate with the tsar? blatant hypocrisy.

[Reuben]

In my opicnion both my Israeli comrades, Balsphemy and ND have made good points. One think I do think though is that the Jews are in a much stronger position to take on inequality and oppression if they build on the comminality of their struggle with other oppressed elements inthe society (IE the working class other minorities) rather than cutting off themselves and their struggle in the way that zionism does.

This is wh i believe that thee use of national liberation movements is at best very limited. Having said that theere comes a point when groups become oppressed to such a huge extent that, that resolving national and racial inequalities is a pre-requisite to developing a class consciousness. It would be impossible, for exmple to tell the jews in Tsarist russai that had no nation only class interests, when at the same time as jews they were subjected to 1400 discriminatory laws.


In conlusion I suppose I am a bundist. THey opposed national liberation and worked within the socialist movemne t yet acted with autonomy in challenging the racial oppression specific to Jews. They were a legitimate means by which jews could act collectively in opposing say the pogroms, while at the same time they were a force who mobilized within the RUssain Jewish community to work alng side others in the common struggle for general emancipation and equality.

Long Live The Bund

[new democracy]

good point reuben. about that stalin poster, i will try to upload it for you mazdak.

[Blasphemy]

ND, do you think people came up with the idea of zionism just for the heck of it? you think they did it because they were bored? eastern european regimes were anti-semetic. it's just a fact, and if your family originates from eastern europe, you can hear stories about it. i heard stories about my family who lived in eastern europe before WWI. jewish students were expelled from universities, they were attacked in the streets, jewish businesses were shut down, and everything that was done was supported by the government.

i will say it again - zionism was the last resort. the european community refused to let the jews be a part of it. there are dozens of examples of the persecution the jews suffered from. if my family didn't come to israel out of zionist ideology, they probably would have been murdered by the nazis.

besides, you seem to have a good time twisting my words. "jewish workers cannot stick together with other workers, since they are anti semite". this was not something i said, and yet, you present it as if i did. i never said people are anti-semite by nature, but you can't deny that a lot of people ARE anti-semite. don't twist my words.

you say that zionism seperates workers from each other. can you explain?

i don't know anything about the nazi-zionist connection, and i find it hard to believe that there was one.

[Conghaileach]

from Blasphemy:
these are not the people who drove the palestinians off the land, so why should they pay for the crimes of others? the children living in those houses did nothing to no-one, and you can't tell them that they have to leave because 60 years ago the house belonged to someone else.

Funny, the Palestinian children forced from their houses 60 years ago didn't do anything to anyone, but they were forced out because someone said they had a biblical claim to the land.


do you think it's practical moving thousands and thousands of people from their homes, when you can simply annex the area, while preserving territorial continuity. let's be pragmatic...

How many Palestinians were forced from their homes 60 years ago again? How many Palestinians continue to be forced from their homes while Israel expands outwards further and further?

[Conghaileach]

I'm not suggesting that all Israelis be forced from their homes, but I do believe that the Palestinian people deserve some kind of compensation for what happened.

And as for the solution, it's probably utopian but I still believe that in a single secular socialist state. Not that it's my place to force my opinion on the Palestinian/Israeli people, but it's what I believe.

[new democracy]

Quote: from Blasphemy on 6:52 am on Oct. 29, 2002
you say that zionism seperates workers from each other. can you explain?
just like every kind nationalism separate workers from each other!!! i hate zionism as part of my hate to every kind of nationalism. it's not like i hate zionism more then any other nationalists ideologies. zionism is jewish nationalism. since nationalism and racism are tools of the ruling class to separate and turn workers against each other, so does zionism. and the fact herzl was filthy rich speaks volumes. about nazi-zionist connection(and the connection between zionism and other anti semite elements)here: http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/top...c=2238&start=20 (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=11&topic=2238&start=20) . now excuse me, i have to crush another horrible ideology called stalinism(in politics online).

[Blasphemy]

twisting words....

ciaranb, i never justified the forcing of palestinians off their lands. i know it's easy to claim that i did, but i didn't... it doesn't change the fact that you can't tell people they can't live in their homes because 60 years ago someone else lived there.
i did say that the refugees deserve compensation, so please read everything i write, not just selected highlights.

actually, palestinians are no longer forced off their lands by the israeli government. some were by settlers, but they returned to their homes after the settlers were arrested.
there is a neighborhood in jerusalem that is attached to the city, but is not in the green line. it has 20,000 people living there. there is no logical reason to evacuate this neighborhood. evacuating it just so you can add a few more square kilometers to the amount of land the palestinian should get seems a bit illogical to me.

[Conghaileach]

from Blasphemy:
ciaranb, i never justified the forcing of palestinians off their lands. i know it's easy to claim that i did, but i didn't...

I never claimed that you did.


it doesn't change the fact that you can't tell people they can't live in their homes because 60 years ago someone else lived there.

It's unfeasible, but there's a precedent in the fact that Palestinians living on the land for hundreds of years were forced off it quite easily, just because the Jewish settlers claim that they lived there 2 or 3 thousand years earlier.

[Conghaileach]

Oh, and while Palestinians have firm family links to the particular places their grandparents and great grandparents were forced from, the Israeli settlers' only claim to the land was that "their people" had occupied it.

[Reuben]

one misconception i should clear up, relating to Ciarans post on the last page is that while the settler movement is religious< the Zionist movement is generally secular. THe idea of a biblical religious claim to Israel has only been the basis of one strand of zionism gernerally peripheral to the movement.

Modern zionism was modelled on the other ethnic national liberation movements of the nineteenth and twentieth century (ie polish) and was not originally specific to Israel with south australia being looked at. The great mass of israeli prime ministers including sharon have been atheists.

I am not a fan of zionism but if we are to deal with it we must understand the genuine reasons it came about. It did not come about sbecause a bunch of jews looked in the bible and saw they had some religious clim. I twas rooted primarily in EUropean oppression (one example is the russian empirE where there were 1400 anti-jewish laws) and also in the general nationalist trend of the nineteenth century

[jpcupp]

fuck these zionist dog.if i did not amply say i feel the say way about my own nations usa imperialism, it would be social chauvenism, but since i just did they can go to hell and die.to here one rationalize genocide is absurd. it was socialist and communist.(even stalinsts mr. moderator) that took up arms against fascism, first. look at the french and polish underground. how are the sticks and rock of the warsaw ghetto unlike the sticks and rocks of the intifada.
Long Live the Intifada!!!
good work. the zionists need to be put on the defensive. run them to the sea!!!!!!

[Guardia Bolivariano]

This discusions is simple,go back to the UN resolution ,make a jewis and palestinian state desarm the isrealie army promote coexistence betwen the 2 cultures and you will see no more bombs go of or hate.The only country that is making this bloodshed go on is israel the UN had already solved the problen decades ago ,zionism is an enemy of peace.

[Reuben]

Good post jccupp, i feel i should make clear that I am pro-palestinian anti-zionist.

Very interesting that you should compare the warsaw ghetto to the intifada.

Marek Edelman, one of the leaders of the warsaw ghetto uprising recently wrote to the Palestinianx to express his support and solidarity addressing them as fellow partisans

[Che Entifada]

1. (israel) had occupied a land that it doesnt belong to them.
2. The jew are like muslims and christians , has the right to live where ever he/she wants
3. The palestinians (muslims and christians) didnt hate the jews , there are many of evidences , i met many old palestinains and i asked them how was Palestine before the occupation , many of them remember till now that the jews who came before the occupation .. Everybody in these palestinian towns helped them , they were all like brothers ..
4. Another important point .. that is Islam and Christian are not a nation .. so the muslims and christians live any where , it doesnt need to live as a christian in a christian country ... SO WHY SHOULD THE JEWS TO HAVE A COUNTRY JUST FOR THE JEWS ???????
Why they dont as all the people in this world live any where .. in jordan , in france , in usa ??? why should they have their own country ? in a land doesnt belong to them ?!!?!?!?

PLEASE ANSWER ME

[Guardia Bolivariano]

Quote: from Che Entifada on 2:43 pm on Oct. 30, 2002
1. (israel) had occupied a land that it doesnt belong to them.
2. The jew are like muslims and christians , has the right to live where ever he/she wants
3. The palestinians (muslims and christians) didnt hate the jews , there are many of evidences , i met many old palestinains and i asked them how was Palestine before the occupation , many of them remember till now that the jews who came before the occupation .. Everybody in these palestinian towns helped them , they were all like brothers ..
4. Another important point .. that is Islam and Christian are not a nation .. so the muslims and christians live any where , it doesnt need to live as a christian in a christian country ... SO WHY SHOULD THE JEWS TO HAVE A COUNTRY JUST FOR THE JEWS ???????
Why they dont as all the people in this world live any where .. in jordan , in france , in usa ??? why should they have their own country ? in a land doesnt belong to them ?!!?!?!?

PLEASE ANSWER ME

I AGREE WITH EVERYTHING YOU SAID.

I HAVE A QUESTION IF THE USA IS SO WORRIED ABOUT THE JEWS HAVING A HOMELAND ,WHY DON'T THEY GIVE THEM ALASKA?

[Blasphemy]

CiaranB:
"It's unfeasible, but there's a precedent in the fact that Palestinians living on the land for hundreds of years were forced off it quite easily, just because the Jewish settlers claim that they lived there 2 or 3 thousand years earlier."

so what are you suggesting, revenge? you took my home, so i'm gonna take it back? two wrongs don't make a right. be reasonable.


Reuben:
"Very interesting that you should compare the warsaw ghetto to the intifada."

yes, because israel puts the palestinians in gas chambers and has detailed plans for their systematic destruction. stop screaming "holocaust" everytime something happens. the word is used to loosley lately.


Guardia Bolivariano:
"The only country that is making this bloodshed go on is israel the UN had already solved the problen decades ago ,zionism is an enemy of peace."

and the palestinian suicide bombers are the protectors of peace? get a broader look at things, and stop dropping all the blame on one side, because it's clearly wrong.


jpcupp:
"fuck these zionist dogs....run them to the sea."

don't expect a reply for such a post. give respect to get respect.

[Che Entifada]

Listen Blasphemy ..

"so what are you suggesting, revenge? you took my home, so i'm gonna take it back? two wrongs don't make a right. be reasonable. "
mmmm .. what do you want me to do ? kiss their asses?

"and the palestinian suicide bombers are the protectors of peace?"
When they occupied Palestine .. did they think that it will be a peice of cake? They should know that the palestinians wont stay calm ..

Anyways .. the solution starts from the israeli side ..
Let the 7 million palestinians come back to palsetine .. All the palestinians and israelis can live togather in Palestine , and together they can make the Real Democratic country ..

[Blasphemy]

Che Entifada:
"what do you want me to do? kiss their asses?"

yes! that's exactly what i want you to do. and i want you to feed their dogs as well, and mow their lawn! also retile the living room if it's not too hard.
fuck, man, if you read the entire thread before replying we wouldn't have to deal with shit like that.

since when are there 7 million palestinians??? i think you added too many digits... the numbers of palestinians to leave israel after 1948 was no more than 200,000. it's 7 millions suddently????

[Baltic]

You can’t force guys off of land who have been living there 60 years.

How about the original folk who are indigenous and not all the rest of the world who use there religion to claim citizenship and right to land because of what some geezer said 2000 years ago.

By the way my sect says that my gov’nor of 3000 years ago says that your office block is mine.

I have a helicopter gunship that is supplied by America and if you don’t fuck off you are history.

I have nothing against Israelis or their religion but it is not right.

Chris

[Conghaileach]

from Blasphemy:
so what are you suggesting, revenge? you took my home, so i'm gonna take it back? two wrongs don't make a right. be reasonable.

I'm simply stating that your argument was a load of crap.

[Blasphemy]

what argument?!!!!

i'm saying that you can't tell kids that some palestinians own their house, because the person their parents bought the house from 50 years ago kicked the palestinian from this house.
what you can do, is compensate the paletinian by financially helping him resettle in the territories, something the precious little arab nations chose not to do for 50 years, and left him to rotten in the refugee camp.
israel can financially aid him, but he can't return to israel, because his house is now occupied.
i didn't justify the fact that this palestinian was kicked off his land, so arguing about it's fairness is just fucking idiotic because we fucking agree!
so tell me what we don't agree on. do you think you can tell these kids that they have to leave their home? do you think they should be kicked off in favor of the palestinian refugee?

[Guardia Bolivariano]

Listen Blasphemy the suicide bombers die because they don't have the advantage of getting weapons and political suport from the "defender of peace" the USA.And maybe what they do is not the best way of fighting the israelis but It's the ONLY way they have getting them where It hurts the most.This is not the best way to solve the conflict but if you see the way the isrealis massacre the palestinian people wen they take control of their towns ,you would better undrestand the reasons why a young palestinian would find the courage to die for his people.And don't forget that the isrealis that now live in isreal were never from Asia they came from Europe and the USA so take a minute to think about who has more rights to land colonialist jews or native palestinians?

(Edited by Guardia Bolivariano at 6:33 pm on Oct. 31, 2002)

[Blasphemy]

"not the best way to solve the conflict"??!!!?!??!?!?!?!
what the fuck?!

"hmm....butchering little kids in the streets is not the best way to solve the conflict, but that's all they have". what kind of a sick approach is this?

do you think there will be peace as long as suicide bombers are finding their way to tel aviv? are you justifying that bullshit? you can't accuse israel of murdering palestinians and support the murder of israelis. condemn both, because both are fucking wrong! there is no different between a tank shelling a car with a woman and her children, and a terrorist blowing himself up in a hotel. no different WHATSOEVER!

[Reuben]

Do people here not think that europe has to take some responisbility for the problem.

I mean zionism was essentially a movement founded in hundreds of years of european ppression and became popular amongst all jews (religious and atheistic - aall sufferred oppression) simply because they wanted a way out. Anti-jewish oppression in europe dates back hundreds of years. The first nation to institute yellow stars were britian on the orders of the pope in around the thirteenth century.

IN the early 20th century russian empire where the great mass of jews were there were 1400 discriminatory laws. WHen they fled countries such as Britain they were hardly welcomed with laws being made SPECIFICALLY t to stop jewish immigration.


I am not saying zionism is the right solution but i am saying that europe must take responsibility and that, while not a good solution, it is understandablee that people who had suffered that may wish to take control of their own destiny and build a nation where their language and culture and security were promoted (Ironically israel ttacked viciously the jewish language of yiddish)

ps i am not a zionist, i simply understand how it came about

[new democracy]

Guardia Bolivariano, you are the most sickest person i talked to. you supported: palestinian terrorism, IRA, and carlos the jackal!!!! the guy that lately said he support bin laden!!!!! you are a sick little fuck.

[Guardia Bolivariano]

Hmm wen the isrealis take a town and bomb It they also kill little kids women and old people.But the only diferences is they get us suport for It in weapons!!!!
And I don't see uncle Sam putting a stop to the Isrealy massacres do you?And of course they should condemn both but I'm still waiting for somebody to take action on the Isrelie side ,do you really think the palestinians would blow themselves up If the REALLY had a change for peace??????

[Reuben]

Do people here not think that europe has to take some responisbility for the problem.

I mean zionism was essentially a movement founded in hundreds of years of european ppression and became popular amongst all jews (religious and atheistic - aall sufferred oppression) simply because they wanted a way out. Anti-jewish oppression in europe dates back hundreds of years. The first nation to institute yellow stars were britian on the orders of the pope in around the thirteenth century.

IN the early 20th century russian empire where the great mass of jews were there were 1400 discriminatory laws. WHen they fled countries such as Britain they were hardly welcomed with laws being made SPECIFICALLY t to stop jewish immigration.


I am not saying zionism is the right solution but i am saying that europe must take responsibility and that, while not a good solution, it is understandablee that people who had suffered that may wish to take control of their own destiny and build a nation where their language and culture and security were promoted (Ironically israel ttacked viciously the jewish language of yiddish)

ps i am not a zionist, i simply understand how it came about

[Blasphemy]

Quote: from Guardia Bolivariano on 8:49 pm on Oct. 31, 2002
Hmm wen the isrealis take a town and bomb It they also kill little kids women and old people.But the only diferences is they get us suport for It in weapons!!!!
And I don't see uncle Sam putting a stop to the Isrealy massacres do you?And of course they should condemn both but I'm still waiting for somebody to take action on the Isrelie side ,do you really think the palestinians would blow themselves up If the REALLY had a change for peace??????


and the palestinians get aid from iraq, so what?

suicide bombers blow themselves up because they do no want to see israel on the map. they want it eradicated! how come that there were suicide bombers during the oslo peace process, a process that would have ultimately brought to the creating of a palestinian state and peace in the region?

[Blasphemy]

jesus, reuben, you're a real zion-phobic. in every other post you have to make clear that you're anti-zionist.

[Reuben]

point taken blas. sorry i just want to pre-empt accussattions of it
just because i was blaming people other than the jews for its popularity and formation and show that it is understandable as a response although i dont agree with it

[Che Entifada]

(Blasphemy) said"" :since when are there 7 million palestinians??? i think you added too many digits... the numbers of palestinians to leave israel after 1948 was no more than 200,000. it's 7 millions suddently???? ""

1. I prefer talking with guys speak well -as ND,Reuben ..-.
2. The number you mention is wrong .. go and read ..
3. The childbirth between the palestinians has a high rate , for many reasons , i think it`s due to the situation they lived in .
4. There are many arabic and palestinian establishments assured this number.
5. IF the number of the palestinians who left palestine in 1948 was 200,000 as you said ... What about their sons and grandchilds ?? They dont have the right to come back ??? I dont think so.

[Guardia Bolivariano]

[quote]Quote: from Blasphemy on 6:59 pm on Oct. 31
and the palestinians get aid from iraq, so what?

suicide bombers blow themselves up because they do no want to see israel on the map. they want it eradicated! how come that there were suicide bombers during the oslo peace process, a process that would have ultimately brought to the creating of a palestinian state and peace in the region?
[quote]

Iraq only gives money to the familys of suicide bombers so they can still get some food.I don't agree with Sadam getting in to the palestinians ,he isn't the best man to promote peace.But on the other hand the US helps Isreal with tanks,f-15 eagles ,cobra helicopters etc...Who do you think has the advantage here?????
And don't forget the Isrealie goverment many times has denied the palestinians their own state.I'm not saying is good to have death on etheir side but the only weapon the palestinians have is to blow themselves up that can proove to you just how desperate, and tired they are of isrealie opresion.Ans It is true that some palestinians don't want Isrealies to live with them but the mayority just wants peace.The official demand of Palestine is a palestinian state NEVER forget that
Blasphemy!

[Guardia Bolivariano]

Quote: from new democracy on 6:48 pm on Oct. 31, 2002
Guardia Bolivariano, you are the most sickest person i talked to. you supported: palestinian terrorism, IRA, and carlos the jackal!!!! the guy that lately said he support bin laden!!!!! you are a sick little fuck.


ND I want to make It clear that I only suport freedom fighters that fight for a real just cause.I don't renember saying I suported Osama Bin Laden ,and If I did It might have been as a joke cause I don't suport him.About that sick fuck thing ,really ND that is the nicest thing anybody has said to me LOL.

PS:How are your plans to kill the most hated german going on?

[Reuben]

when the fuck did ND indicate he hated germans?

[Guardia Bolivariano]

Quote: from Reuben on 10:56 pm on Oct. 31, 2002
when the fuck did ND indicate he hated germans?


Not germans in general A german.

[Blasphemy]

Quote: from Che Entifada on 11:21 pm on Oct. 31, 2002
(Blasphemy) said"" :since when are there 7 million palestinians??? i think you added too many digits... the numbers of palestinians to leave israel after 1948 was no more than 200,000. it's 7 millions suddently???? ""

1. I prefer talking with guys speak well -as ND,Reuben ..-.
2. The number you mention is wrong .. go and read ..
3. The childbirth between the palestinians has a high rate , for many reasons , i think it`s due to the situation they lived in .
4. There are many arabic and palestinian establishments assured this number.
5. IF the number of the palestinians who left palestine in 1948 was 200,000 as you said ... What about their sons and grandchilds ?? They dont have the right to come back ??? I dont think so.


there are 3.5 million palestinians in the territories, not 7.

of course israel has the military advantage, but it doesn't justify killing innocent civilians. i don't care how fucked up a person is, he doesn't have the right to take the lives of others from them. it's sick. why does a 4 year-old girl has to lose her life in the middle of the street?
suicide bombing corrupted the palestinian society, and turned it violent. according to surverys conducted by palestinian institutes, the majority of the palestinian population supports suicide bombing. and it has become a very violent society, where people are savagely killed by the mob because they are suspected of cooperating with israel.

[Guardia Bolivariano]

I want to get this strait ,of course It's a CRIME and a BIG one to kill innocent civilians like the palestinians do.But you have to understand that the isreali army does the same thing the only diference is instead of using suicide bombers they use attack aircraft and helicopters to do the job.And wen you say that palestinians are getting corrupt by doing these suicide attacks ,why do you think they even started to do these attacks ,It's simple THE ISREALI ARMY that's why!!!!
I also think It's unfair for a little girl to get killed in the midlle of the street.Now do you think It's fair for an other little girl to die from an isreali bombing run?

[Chief Rebel Angel]

Reuben, dear friend, i still have the greatest respect for you, even if i do not agree with u on some accounts. Peace.

regardless of whether what they do is wrong or right, if it were not for the suicide-bombers, Palastine would have been devoured in its entirety. u cannot have the Palestinians standing still while they r being oppressed and killed. do not put israel as the victim because it started the blood cycle, and the only possible retalliation for the palestinians is suicide bombing, i dare anyone to name me another possible means of retalliation. Palestine has place for Jews, not Israelies.

(Edited by Chief Rebel Angel at 4:59 pm on Nov. 1, 2002)

[Blasphemy]

guardia, i have always condemend the israeli aggressivness against palestinian population.

chief rebel angel, how many suicide bombers did gandhi send to liberate india?

[Guardia Bolivariano]

[quote]Quote: from Blasphemy on 3:05 pm on Nov. 1, 2002
guardia, i have always condemend the israeli aggressivness against palestinian population.

chief rebel angel, how many suicide bombers did gandhi send to liberate india?[quote]
I'm glad we sorted out the misinterpretation we had.But I think India is a diferent case , for one thing they had in that time Close to 300 millions people and could use their way more superiors numbers to make a stand without violence ,the isrealie and palestinian situation is totaly diferent.

[Blasphemy]

the palestinians can lead a peaceful fight against the israeli occupation, as preached by Prof. Seri Noseiba, the former holder of the jerusalem file in the palestinian authority, and the current president of the Al Aqsa University. Noseiba and other palestinian officials published a position paper where they call for a peaceful fight against the occupation, and the opening of diplomatic channels so a peace process can begin.

for arafat, though, the more the palestinians suffer the better. he has no desire to put and end to their plight, because he is not a true leader, and once real decisions will have to be made, he will be hopeless.

[Guardia Bolivariano]

If thetwo sides can reach an agreement witout violence It should be welcome but maybe both sides have diferent plans.

[Conghaileach]

from Blasphemy:
i'm saying that you can't tell kids that some palestinians own their house, because the person their parents bought the house from 50 years ago kicked the palestinian from this house.

It's not morally right, but there are still Palestinians living who once resided in the houses you claim they can't have back, despite the fact that they lost their homes illegally to the Israeli settlers. If a person wants his.her house back, they should be legally allowed to get it back.

[Sinistra]

I am sorry to tell you commrads , that you dont knoe anything about Zionism . Zionism is a peacfull suloution to the Jews in the world , it is not in anyway even near fascism , i sugest to you all to read the book "altneuland" by Herzle , the father of Zionism , and you will see what the Zionism is realy about ,it is about the formation of a state that is the home of the Jewish people , and that jews must live in tolerence with the arabs .
Lets not Judge Zionism by what we see in television . wich isnot always true .

[Conghaileach]

from Blasphemy:
the palestinians can lead a peaceful fight against the israeli occupation, as preached by Prof. Seri Noseiba

Well, considering that nearly every Palestinian peace demonstration ever held has been shot off the streets by Israeli settlers or IDF soldier, I'd have to disagree with you.

[Blasphemy]

every palestinian peace demonstration ever held (the few of them) has been shot off the streets by the leaders of the palestinians.

Sinistra is right. not only about zionism, but the general point he is making. when rightists say that communism is evil, and use stalin as an example, we say that stalin was not a true communist, and we try and isolate stalinists, so they won't be looked at as the representatives of the left. same thing here, just because some people decided to take zionism to an extreme level and kick palestinians off their lands, doesn't make zionism as an ideological movement evil.

millions were purged by stalin in the name of the revolution. is the concept of revolution evil? of course it isn't.

thousands were kicked off their land in the name of zionism. is the zionist concept evil? of course it isn't.

[Sinistra]

to CiaranB that said that every palestenian peace demonstration was shot down by the IDF . well for your nolege , the IDF , as stupid it may sound for you , is one of the most moral armies in the world , i am not saing that there are no unfortunet mistakes , so believe me , the IDF has a very strikt firing rules , the IDF soldier doesnt shoot until he is shot upon . the only peacful demonstrations the palestenisans have are in Tel-Aviv , because they are afraid of the responce of there own people . not to mension all the life threats that prof.Sari Nusybah got because he is against the Intifada . so i want you to understand that it is not israel that is killing the palestenians peace activists , it is the palestenians that are killing the palestenian peace activists .

[Sol]

Bullshit. The IDF is brutal. Strict firing rules? That doesn't explain how half of Palestinian casualties are woman and children and men over 55. When you shoot at shadows you get figures like that. Or they'll just bulldoze your home. Hundreds die by their own roofs.

Both sides in this conflict are horribly oppressive and brutal. Hamas and their ilk are violent to Palestinians as well Israelis, mainly through terrorist threats like the one described above. The IDF routinely shoots civilians and tortures Palestinians, with the occasional whole sale slaughter.

I have a question; do Zionists, as a body, generally accept the building of Jewish settlements in Arab areas?

[Blasphemy]

sinistra, the IDF's morality which we still sanctify in israel, is long gone. the IDF has become a brutal, relentless machine of destruction and killing. it isn't the army we know from 67 and 73, it is a new kind of army.

zionism is not a body, it is an ideological movement which includes within it many different streams, including the religious zionism, and the secular zionism. the religious zionists do support the building of jewish settlements in the territories, while the seculars don't. right now, the vast majority of israelis, including the majority of the moderate right, oppose the settlements and support their evacuation.

[Sinistra]

i know that there are high numbers of palestenian sitizens killed by the IDF , but still , you ccant say that the israelies and palestenians are both guilty in the same way , the IDF is in the ocupies teretories in order to protect the lives of the israely sitizens, not to kill , but the idea of hamas is to kill as many israelies that they can .

and also to SOL , you dont know the reality of the midle east , so please dont write about what you dont know .

[Blasphemy]

sinistra, i know plenty about the reality in israel, and i tell you that both sides are equally guilty. not in the same way, but guilty.

when the israeli government takes to itslef the authority of the supreme court, and executes people without trial, i do not see it as "moral". yes, the people israel is executing are usually terrorists with blood on their hands, but shooting their car from a helicopter, killing them without trial, and taking the lives of some innocent civilians along the way is immoral.

if your computer supports hebrew fonts, this is a very good article you should read: http://www.hagada.org.il/hagada/html/modul...article&sid=256 (http://www.hagada.org.il/hagada/html/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=256).

under Lit. Gen. Mofaz, the Israeli Defence Forces have become the Israeli Death Forces.

[Sinistra]

I also know alot about hte israely reality , believe me .
When israel "executes" , "Sikol Memokad" or how the fuck you want to call it , it does it inorder to protect you , yes you . as long as a big time terorist is free , he will continue on with his killing , when he is killed h cant kill no more , this is not an execution , this is self defence .

[Blasphemy]

you see, the logic behind the assassinations of terrorists is quite twisted:

1. a terrorist plans and executed attacks on israelis civilians.

2. israel declares him to be a wanted criminal with blood on his hands.

3. he is assassinated by the israeli army.

4. as a responce, a member of a terrorist organization avenges his death by planning and executing terrorist attacks on israeli civilans.

5. israel declares him to be a wanted criminal with blood on his hands.

6. he is assassinated by the israeli military.

7. as a responce, a member of a terrorist organization avenges his death by planning and executing terrorist attacks on israeli civilans.

do you see the pattern here... it's an endless circle of death and blood. the situation is that israel is in a constant need for protection, and the government enjoys popularity.

and this is just the practical aspect. if i would want to talk about the moral aspect of the assassinations, i would talk about how it is curropting the foundations of democracy because the executive branch also acts as the judicial branch. i would also talk about the many innocent lives of civilians and children which are taken away in the process. but i won't talk about that now.

i hope you read the article i mentioned in my previous post.

[Angie]

Corrupting the foundations of Democracy...

Am I the only person who's starting to think that the foundations of Democracy have been lost to time and have next to nothing to do with what is referred to in the present day as "Democracy"?

Please tell me I'm not.

[Blasphemy]

i was making a refrence to a famous line said by Rabin that "violence erodes the foundations of the israeli democracy".

but besides, how something is applied to reality is not how it is in theory, and the foundations of democracy have been curropted from the minute democracy became an actual system of government, but there is no need to curropt them more.