Josef Stalin

[Entrails Konfetti]

What measures did he take to make the U.S.S.R so un-Democratic and corrupt ? What was set up by Lenin,so Stalin could press his will ?

I've heard from Russian people that they have been used to being ruled by despots for centuries,it is possible that Eastern people aren't used to Democracy as Westerners are ? Democracy in the Western sense meaning we wish to hold our hand-picked repressentitives accountable and wish to expel them from legislation if we feel they are abusing their power. Is there a difference between East and West ideas ?

[symtoms_of_humanity]

He enacted many programs, Lenin himself did not want Lenin in power, it was said in his last will(not saying Lenin didn't mess up at points) Stalin countered it by threating to resign from the council and him being a popular guy, they gave him the majority, he then exiled trotsky to mexico, were he was later killed, he enacted a program to take away all land and property from the workers and peasants, and many resisted but he had them all executed, sometimes entire villages whipped out, he destroyed churches and kille dpriests and replaced jesus with pictures of himself, gave himself a god like appreance so the people would follow just as they did the tsar, and there is a long list of other programs

[Super Mario Conspiracy]

What measures did he take to make the U.S.S.R so un-Democratic and corrupt?

As symtoms_of_humanity said, Stalin had many tricky things in his pockets. He established a cult of personality, placing pictures of him everywhere, as one example. Stalin is one of the main reasons why some people think communism is a dictatorship.

And just like Hitler, Stalin also plainly and openly hated Jews.


I've heard from Russian people that they have been used to being ruled by despots for centuries,it is possible that Eastern people aren't used to Democracy as Westerners are?

I can imagine that - not to mention the means Putin recently took to gain more control. The idea of this illusion goes back thousands of years, back to Plato at least, and can be seen in movies such as The Matrix, if you want to look on it that way. Imagine if you lived until 80, and then one morning woke up to discover that the world you live in is really just a huge computer program, a virtual world. Quite hard to imagine, right? What if we look completely different in the "real world"? Quite a shock.

That is exactly why I prefer a transissional stage: capitalism to socialism, to communism, and eventually to anarchism. Imagine if North Korea got the same system as, say, France has today. Law? Justice? Liberty? Free association to any group? Parties? Of course, this process can be accelerated, but not with such a big bang.


Democracy in the Western sense meaning we wish to hold our hand-picked repressentitives accountable and wish to expel them from legislation if we feel they are abusing their power.

Ironically, we don't see that happening much, do we?

[refuse_resist]

All I have to say that is if you're looking for a fair and balanced view of Stalin you've come to the wrong place. :lol:

[Bolshevist]

He established a cult of personality, placing pictures of him everywhere, as one example.

http://madison.indymedia.org/newswire/disp...12498/index.php (http://madison.indymedia.org/newswire/display/12498/index.php)


And just like Hitler, Stalin also plainly and openly hated Jews.

National and racial chauvinism is a vestige of the misanthropic customs characteristic of the period of cannibalism. Anti-semitism, as an extreme form of racial chauvinism, is the most dangerous vestige of cannibalism.

Anti-semitism is of advantage to the exploiters as a lightning conductor that deflects the blows aimed by the working people at capitalism. Anti-semitism is dangerous for the working people as being a false path that leads them off the right road and lands them in the jungle. Hence Communists, as consistent internationalists, cannot but be irreconcilable, sworn enemies of anti-semitism.

In the U.S.S.R. anti-semitism is punishable with the utmost severity of the law as a phenomenon deeply hostile to the Soviet system. Under U.S.S.R. law active anti-semites are liable to the death penalty.

J. Stalin
January 12, 1931

Stalin was also married to a jew.

[Entrails Konfetti]

Originally posted by Super Mario [email protected] 27 2005, 11:31 PM



Democracy in the Western sense meaning we wish to hold our hand-picked repressentitives accountable and wish to expel them from legislation if we feel they are abusing their power.

Ironically, we don't see that happening much, do we?
No we don't see that at all.But,what I meant to say is that,though it seems thats what most Westerners truly want.

[Entrails Konfetti]

But,what no one has mentioned is how he got the peasents and the workers so dissallusioned with the whole government to the point they wouldn't participate in any meetings anymore, or how the bureacrats repressed the proles into not attending meetings or participating in the government.

[Saint-Just]

And just like Hitler, Stalin also plainly and openly hated Jews.

I am not necessarily a defendant of Stalin. However, Hitler hated Jews on certain points, he thought that they were dirty, propagants of immorality (i.e. pornography, media for the base intellect etc.) and that they were the leaders of social democracy in Germany. Now, for what reason would Stalin hate Jews, you cannot say that he hated Jews without devising a reason for which he hated they.It is ridiculous to say it is a common characteristic of a fascist to hate Jews and therefore Stalin and Hitler are both fascists or evil, or whatever you want to say. Hitler hated Jews because he was had an ignorance of the world as a whole, and was attracted to racism and prejudice (to descibe his political development very simplistically at least).

[Entrails Konfetti]

Okay,I've read that indymedia article posted by Lenin i Stalin,

Well,since you say it was the concealed revisionists who corrupted the U.S.S.R,how exactly ,besides setting up the cult of the individual ?

Also, what is the popular Stalinist rebutle against the death of millions of his own people ? Was he directly related to these deaths ?



I'm just curious to what both sides have to say on this.

[Bolshevist]

Well,since you say it was the concealed revisionists who corrupted the U.S.S.R,how exactly ,besides setting up the cult of the individual ?

Stalin said "The communist bureaucrat is the most dangerous type of bureaucrat. Why? Because he masks his bureaucracy with the title of Party member." (Speech at Eighth Congress of A.U.L.Y.C.L., 1928)

Introducing economic reforms that led to the eventual destruction of the Soviet Union (which I consider a huge loss for the Soviet/Russian people, even though it was infiltrated with revisionism), peaceful co-existance with the West and the bourgeious, introducing a social-imperialist economy, the arms race and so on.


Also, what is the popular Stalinist rebutle against the death of millions of his own people ? Was he directly related to these deaths ?

From "Lies concerning the history of the Soviet Union" by Mario Sousa, the record says that from 1934 to 1953 1.053.829 people died, but this also includes criminals. That is 52.691 deaths per year and the average % of counter-revolutionaries in the Soviet prison system was 31%. That is hardly what I would call genocide or "tens of millions" deaths, it is obvious that the 'facts' presented by Western historians is equal to BS. You should read this article, it is a bit long but well worth the read. Here it is: http://www.geocities.com/redcomrades/lies.html

[Revolutionary_Anarchism]

From "Lies concerning the history of the Soviet Union" by Mario Sousa, the record says that from 1934 to 1953 1.053.829 people died

So 1 million dead people is not bad? And dont think i believe that, he killed at least 8 million.

[romanm]

Mao was right in his evaluation 70% good for Comrade Stalin.

This is the wrong forum to learn about Stalin, marxleninmao.proboards43.com has several threads on the subject.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Don't listen to romanm, you'll simply get bombarded with drivel about how all the western workers are 'petit-bourgeouis' and need to all be put in a gulag.

I agree that many lies are disseminated about Stalin, he was a good leader but that's all he was. Serious communists should leave him behind as a 20th century anachronism.

[Bolshevist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2005, 04:39 PM
So 1 million dead people is not bad? And dont think i believe that, he killed at least 8 million.
Why do you believe so? These numbers are directly from the Soviet archives, they are the most accurate source avalible in contrast to Conquest and Solzhenitsyn (who was a facist btw, he supported Franco)

[Super Mario Conspiracy]

Stalin is well known for having created a cult of personality in the Soviet Union around both himself and Lenin. The embalming of the Soviet founder in Lenin's Tomb was done over the objection of Lenin's widow, Nadezhda Krupskaya. Stalin became the focus of massive adoration and even worship. Numerous towns, villages and cities were renamed after the Soviet leader (see List of places named after Stalin) and the Stalin Prize and Stalin Peace Prize were named in his honour. Trotsky criticized the cult of personality Stalin built as being against the values of socialism and Bolshevism by exalting the individual above the party and class and making criticism of Stalin unacceptable. The personality cult reached new levels during the Great Patriotic War with Stalin's name even being included in the new Soviet national anthem. Stalin became the focus of a body of literature including poetry as well as music, paintings and film.


National and racial chauvinism...

...J. Stalin
January 12, 1931

I guess Stalin's policies were constant then, specially with Hitler lurking around everywhere.


Stalin was also married to a jew.

Which wife?


No we don't see that at all. But,what I meant to say is that, though it seems thats what most Westerners truly want.

Well, as long as it doesn't have to do with "their business", fine, the government can do whatever it wants.


Also, what is the popular Stalinist rebutle against the death of millions of his own people? Was he directly related to these deaths?

Well, I don't think that the people themselves went to the gulags, and the power was in the government's hands at that time - the head of the government was Stalin.


From "Lies concerning the history of the Soviet Union" by Mario Sousa, the record says that from 1934 to 1953 1.053.829 people died, but this also includes criminals. That is 52.691 deaths per year and the average % of counter-revolutionaries in the Soviet prison system was 31%. That is hardly what I would call genocide or "tens of millions" deaths, it is obvious that the 'facts' presented by Western historians is equal to BS.

Many historians agree that the disruption caused by forced collectivisation was largely responsible for major famines which caused up to 5 million deaths in 1932–33, particularly in Ukraine and the lower Volga region.

Therefore those defined as "kulaks", "kulak helpers" and later "ex-kulaks" were to be shot, placed into Gulag labor camps or deported to remote areas of the country, depending on the charge.

I see... Stalin really tried... ;)


Why do you believe so? These numbers are directly from the Soviet archives, they are the most accurate source avalible in contrast to...

And I guess that because they came from a Soviet archive they included every single person who was shot in the streets, kidnapped by the secret police, died of famine and so on.

(All sources from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin )

[Bolshevist]

I guess Stalin's policies were constant then, specially with Hitler lurking around everywhere.

The fact that active anti-semites in the USSR could face the death penalty, and that Stalin supported Israel should be clear evidence that Stalin was no anti-semite.

I don't remeber which wife though. I do recall she was head of some Jewish Soviet organisation.


I see... Stalin really tried...

Coming now to the famine itself and its causes, the factors of drought and sabotage during the process of collectivisation are generally given little attention by right wing historians. Interestingly, in "A History of the Ukraine" by Mikhail Hrushevsky - described by the Nationalists themselves as "Ukraine's leading historian" - we read that "Again a year of drought coincided with chaotic agricultural conditions; and during the winter of 1932-3 a great famine, like that of 1921-2 swept across Soviet Ukraine". Nowhere does this history suggest that the famine was deliberate and aimed against Ukrainians, and in fact more space is devoted to the famine of 1921-22. There are many references to drought conditions in the Ukraine in 1931 and 1932. Even Ewald Ammende in his "Human Life in Russia" refers to climatic and natural causes of the famine.

While drought was a contributing factor, the main cause of the famine was the struggle around collectivisation of the countryside in this period. In 1928 there were millions of small scale peasant farms, three quarters of the land was sown by hand, one third of the crop areas was harvested by sickle and scythe, 40% of the crop was threshed by flail. Over one quarter of peasant households possessed no draught animals or farming implements, and 47% had only ploughs. The drive to collectivisation was a key feature of the first five year plan launched in 1929. The small minority of rich peasants, the kulaks, opposed socialisation of agriculture and fought against collectivisation with an organised campaign of large-scale destruction. The struggle in some areas including the Ukraine approached civil war scale. Visiting foreign observers at the time noted that kulak opposition took the form of slaughtering their cattle and horses rather than having them collectivised. From 1928-33 the number of horses in the Soviet Union fell from 30 to 15 million, cattle from 70 to 38 million, sheep and goats from 147 to 50 million. Some kulaks burned down the property of collectives and even burned their own crops and seed grain. Many famine-genocide theorists discount kulak sabotage, but others offer enthusiastic descriptions celebrating the opposition to Soviet planning. In addition the famine was compounded by typhus epidemics which undoubtedly claimed many lives. By 1933 there was a successful harvest, enormous efforts were put into improving collective farms and providing mechanised equipment.

Subsequent huge increases in agricultural and industrial output in the Ukraine leading up to the second world war give the lie to allegations or 7 - 15 million starvation deaths only seven years earlier. In addition, the record of Ukrainian resistance to the Nazis and their Ukrainian nationalist auxiliaries was exemplary. In the largest eastern portion of the Ukraine loyalty was overwhelming and active. There were over half a million organised Soviet guerrillas, and four and a half million ethnic Ukrainians fought in the Soviet army. The Ukrainian nationalist histories acknowledge this, and one can only wonder at the ability of a nation to mobilise such numbers of military aged males in the light of Nationalist claims about famine victims. The reality was that for the bulk of the Ukrainian peasants, workers and the professionals newly emerged from those classes, the Soviet system had demonstrated overwhelming economic and cultural advantages.

The only place where the Nationalists found any kind of base during the Nazi occupation was in what had been up to 1939 Polish Galicia; this is where the Nazis did their bulk of recruiting for the fascist police and SS units. An examination of what happened during the Nazi occupation is revealing not only in terms of the popular support for the Soviets demonstrated by the people of the Ukraine, but also for the role played by the Ukrainian Nationalists.



And I guess that because they came from a Soviet archive they included every single person who was shot in the streets, kidnapped by the secret police, died of famine and so on.

What about those babies Stalin so much liked to eat? Or all of those girl he raped, and then killed? etc.. :rolleyes:

[workersunity]

firstly anyone who takes away land, from the workers, and kills them is not a friend of mine, stalin was a reactionary, did great harm to communism, one of the reasons people blame communism for being dictatorship, and all about murder, he was a bastard

[spartafc]

These numbers are directly from the Soviet archives, they are the most accurate source avalible

On what basis do you assume that these are the "most accurate source available"?

It's much like Stalinists criticising Trotsky for under-estimating the horrors of Stalin's purges. They do so without accepting the rather obvious point that he couldn't have a full understanding of the horrors of the situation (as many didn't at the time) having been expelled from the country and in fear of his life.

[danny android]

Originally posted by Lenin i [email protected] 27 2005, 11:36 PM

Stalin was also married to a jew.
yes and his wife also went batshit fucking crazy and killed herself, because of how stalin treated her.

Stalin was a genecidal maniac, parnoid schitzophrenic and should never be looked to as a symbol of communism.

[Phalanx]

I thought all of the stalinists were banned. Maybe it's rice coming back.

[Hiero]

Originally posted by danny android+Jun 29 2005, 10:59 AM--> (danny android @ Jun 29 2005, 10:59 AM)
Lenin i [email protected] 27 2005, 11:36 PM

Stalin was also married to a jew.
yes and his wife also went batshit fucking crazy and killed herself, because of how stalin treated her.

Stalin was a genecidal maniac, parnoid schitzophrenic and should never be looked to as a symbol of communism. [/b]
Nadezhda (Nadya) had physcological problems, some were medical. Her death was a cause of a whole bunch of factors. Your claim just adds to the large list of moronic attacks on Stalin.

Anyway i though his first wife was a Jew?

[danny android]

Originally posted by Hiero+Jun 30 2005, 10:46 AM--> (Hiero @ Jun 30 2005, 10:46 AM)
Originally posted by danny [email protected] 29 2005, 10:59 AM

Lenin i [email protected] 27 2005, 11:36 PM

Stalin was also married to a jew.
yes and his wife also went batshit fucking crazy and killed herself, because of how stalin treated her.

Stalin was a genecidal maniac, parnoid schitzophrenic and should never be looked to as a symbol of communism.
Nadezhda (Nadya) had physcological problems, some were medical. Her death was a cause of a whole bunch of factors. Your claim just adds to the large list of moronic attacks on Stalin.

Anyway i though his first wife was a Jew? [/b]
Moronic attacks on stalin? I think the only thing that coul be moronic about this thread is the support of stalin. Stalin killed millions. Arested millions of people and interigated them based off of nothing. Treated Ukrainians like the dirt that they plowed. This man was insane, no one should defend him for the things that he has done. Stalin was a tyranical toltalitarian not a communist.

[Bolshevist]

On what basis do you assume that these are the "most accurate source available"?


Because everyone who vistited the gulags got registered in this archive. Not based on some facist tales about the USSR.


firstly anyone who takes away land, from the workers, and kills them is not a friend of mine, stalin was a reactionary, did great harm to communism, one of the reasons people blame communism for being dictatorship, and all about murder, he was a bastard

How did he take land away from the people? Are you confused, and thinking that collectivising land was taking it away from people?

[symtoms_of_humanity]

Originally posted by Lenin i [email protected] 30 2005, 08:24 PM


On what basis do you assume that these are the "most accurate source available"?


Because everyone who vistited the gulags got registered in this archive. Not based on some facist tales about the USSR.


firstly anyone who takes away land, from the workers, and kills them is not a friend of mine, stalin was a reactionary, did great harm to communism, one of the reasons people blame communism for being dictatorship, and all about murder, he was a bastard

How did he take land away from the people? Are you confused, and thinking that collectivising land was taking it away from people?
Its been proven that he used that as a trick fro taking away the land, it was not collectivized in the workers or the people, the state took control, they took all property from kulaks(rich farmers) and had them shot or sent away to labor camps, sorry but seizing property,land, and anything of value(i.e. people, tools, animals) is not collectivising

[symtoms_of_humanity]

Originally posted by Hiero+Jun 30 2005, 10:46 AM--> (Hiero @ Jun 30 2005, 10:46 AM)
Originally posted by danny [email protected] 29 2005, 10:59 AM

Lenin i [email protected] 27 2005, 11:36 PM

Stalin was also married to a jew.
yes and his wife also went batshit fucking crazy and killed herself, because of how stalin treated her.

Stalin was a genecidal maniac, parnoid schitzophrenic and should never be looked to as a symbol of communism.
Nadezhda (Nadya) had physcological problems, some were medical. Her death was a cause of a whole bunch of factors. Your claim just adds to the large list of moronic attacks on Stalin.

Anyway i though his first wife was a Jew? [/b]
On the night she killed herself, Stalin had been harrasing her at a dinner party, and made the people he was eating with at the table upset, she then got so upset she left, next there was a gun fired and she was found dead, either way Stalin did it to her, whether he shot her himself, had someone else kill her(like how he had Trotsky killed) or she did it herself due to grief, and a depression caused by him, Its shown Stalin was paranoid(especially at the end of his dictatorship(he wouldn't even see a doctor because he belive they were Jews out to kill him) and before WW2 when he had all his top generals killed, becuase they knew Stalin was not a part of the Revolution which he procaimed to be(the movies which he and Trotsky were on Lenin's side on the night of the October Revolution are massivly false, he was having tea in his girlfriends apartment the night it occured) and there was a massive period of De-Stalinazation because many people around him knew the things he said and had done were utterly false

[Super Mario Conspiracy]

Not based on some facist tales about the USSR.

In May 2005, Amnesty International, in its annual report on global human rights [1] (http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/index-eng), declared the United States worldwide network of secret prisons along with the more visible facility at Guantanamo Bay (Camp X-Ray) to be "the gulag of our times"[2] (http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/06/01/1441204). The organization complains that suspects in the War on Terror are being held indefinitely without charges and without access to lawyers and family members. William Schulz, executive director of Amnesty's Washington branch, said that "in some cases, at least, we know they are being mistreated, abused, tortured and even killed."

I suppose the "fascists" would write something like that for everyone to read. I also think those "fascists" would write this about communism and socialism too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

For example:

As a social and economic system, communism would be a type of egalitarian society with no state, no privately owned means of production, and no social classes. All property is owned cooperatively and collectively, by the community as a whole, and all people have equal social and economic status and rights.

Damn fascists! I guess that's why they call it the Free Encyclopedia! :rolleyes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag


How did he take land away from the people? Are you confused, and thinking that collectivising land was taking it away from people?

Stalin's regime moved to force collectivisation of agriculture. The theory behind collectivisation was that it would replace the small-scale un-mechanised and inefficient farms with large-scale mechanised farms that would produce food far more efficiently.

The people certainly had a choice...

Collectivisation also meant a drastic drop in living standards for many peasants (but not all; the poorest peasants actually saw their living standards increase), and it faced widespread and often violent resistance among the peasantry.

Wow, it helped the poorest peasants, and that is actually a good thing. Too bad that had to cause 5 million Ukranians their lives. I mean, isn't this what we're fighting for? Letting one man force us into doing something without listening to what the people have to say?

[Hiero]

This man was insane

Claiming that an insane man was approved by the CC to lead the party is insane.



the state took control, they took all property from kulaks(rich farmers) and had them shot or sent away to labor camps, sorry but seizing property,land, and anything of value(i.e. people, tools, animals) is not collectivising

Its called socialism. It was class war, the Soviet government helped the poor peasants destroy the rich kulak class so property could be centralised in the State. Then the produce is used for society.


either way Stalin did it to her, whether he shot her himself, had someone else kill he

Communist shouldn't create conpricay theories, it makes them look insane.

[symtoms_of_humanity]

But the poor peasants even resisted, they did not want thier property seized, and the land was never given back to them, yet the people in the city lived good lives, the people in the Ukrain died, and were not aloowed to leave, If you so defend Stalin, what good did he really do

[danny android]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 03:36 AM
But the poor peasants even resisted, they did not want thier property seized, and the land was never given back to them, yet the people in the city lived good lives, the people in the Ukrain died, and were not aloowed to leave, If you so defend Stalin, what good did he really do
Well he did bring russia into the modern world in all honesty. However the price was far to dear. I don't think that modernization and the loss of millions of lives is any fair trade at all.

[symtoms_of_humanity]

Originally posted by danny android+Jul 1 2005, 05:17 AM--> (danny android @ Jul 1 2005, 05:17 AM)
[email protected] 1 2005, 03:36 AM
But the poor peasants even resisted, they did not want thier property seized, and the land was never given back to them, yet the people in the city lived good lives, the people in the Ukrain died, and were not aloowed to leave, If you so defend Stalin, what good did he really do
Well he did bring russia into the modern world in all honesty. However the price was far to dear. I don't think that modernization and the loss of millions of lives is any fair trade at all. [/b]
Yes he modernized them, like you said, but there should be other things he had done that didn't cost the lives of millons

[symtoms_of_humanity]

[/QUOTE]Claiming that an insane man was approved by the CC to lead the party is insane.

yes apparetly they were, because he infact turned out to be quite insane

[danny android]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 05:33 AM
Claiming that an insane man was approved by the CC to lead the party is insane.

yes apparetly they were, because he infact turned out to be quite insane [/quote]
Yeah dude. He was a freaking nut bag.

We live in a crazy f-ed up world were insane people are put into office it is just the way things end up sometimes. Live with the fact that the communist party of russia made mistakes in the past and that we must not make them in the future.

[symtoms_of_humanity]

yea, thats the way the world runs, the crazy ones on top, the intellectuals on the bottom

[Anarcho-Communist]

Josef Stalin did a lot for the Soviet Empire. He did a lot of industrilization but at the cost of others lives. He should have been killed long before he died for crimes to humanity.

[Entrails Konfetti]

I think its funny no one mentioned that mass graves of the Polish peoples during the WW2.

[symtoms_of_humanity]

Originally posted by EL [email protected] 3 2005, 02:46 AM
I think its funny no one mentioned that mass graves of the Polish peoples during the WW2.
yes, sadly I don't know much about what happend, all I know is Hitler screwed it up, and as the Reds went throught, they killed many as well

[Bolshevist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 03:36 AM
But the poor peasants even resisted, they did not want thier property seized, and the land was never given back to them, yet the people in the city lived good lives, the people in the Ukrain died, and were not aloowed to leave, If you so defend Stalin, what good did he really do
The poor peasants wanted collectivisation. It was the rich ones (The Kulaks) that resisted, and they were not far away from creating a famine by burning crops, machinery, cattle and so on to resist collectivisation.