You would have thought they'd learnt from Auschwitz...

[Angie]

The Ostrovsky Files
A Message From Hell
By Victor Ostrovsky

Occasionally an article appears that is so disturbing in nature that one wants to cry out to the world in anger and frustration, "stop!" The Tel Aviv daily Ha'aretz carried just such an article, by Aviv Lavi, on Dec. 23.

For the most part Ha'aretz translates its articles-or somewhat sanitized versions-into English and makes them available on its Web site at www.haaretz.co.il/english. But others, like the one described below, remain untranslated for reasons that will become obvious.

It is the story of Haim Peretz, a seemingly ordinary Israeli who grew up in the small town of Ofakim-not a place overflowing with left-wing activists. Nevertheless, in clearing him for obligatory military service, Israeli officials overlooked a character flaw. This ordinary young man from an ordinary town had, unnoticed by the authorities, developed a conscience. It apparently went unnoticed while Haim Peretz spent almost three years working on F-16 aircraft as an Israeli air force technician. However, with only two weeks left to complete his three years of obligatory service, this first sergeant with a clean record was sent for a two-week stint as a security guard at the holding facility at the Erez crossing between Israel and the Gaza Strip.

Continue reading... (http://abbc.com/historia/zionism/ostrovsky_hmnrits.html)

Fucking arseholes... No apologies for language, I'm bloody pissed off. :angry:

[Mahdavikia]

I have gone on the site http://abbc.com/.
It's really awful and terrifying.
I can't understand how people can write such silly things.
This islamist site is extreme right-hand side and very anti-semitic.

[jon doe]

G'day

okay i dont like the knee-jerk anti-semitic acussations of anything which is not zionist but seriously that site is fucked. read the lovely bit it has to say about marx and how it uses hitler as evidence that the jews are evil. that's one fucked up site. (btw thats one fucked up article as well thank god there are some israeli's left who can recognise when the IDF is opressing people)

thanks
-r.

[Reuben]

I been to that site before and it is extremely anti-semitic.

[Reuben]

shit this stuff is fucked. it should be taken off the net

[Iepilei]

I disagree... let the words of their injustice spread, those sick bastards.

All these fundamentalists are starting to drive me up the walls.

[Xvall]

Disgusting! They SUPPORT hitler!

[jon doe]

G'day

it's no different to some of the right-wing christian stuff on the net. there's some fucked up site out there who's trying to ban mastibation

thanks
-r.

[IRANeAZAD5]

that site is complete garbage

read the nice message they have on top of the site about uniting the human race then scroll downto see that shit - they are such hypocrites

[Angie]

Bloody hell, people. If the report came from a fascist, Right-Wing news source like CNN you'd still accept it. Hypocrisy all over. They're mainstream, so somehow they're alright, apparently. Get over your situation with the source and read the bloody article. If there's truth in it, it's damned shocking truth, extremely sick. And considering the IDF's recent history (or any history for that matter), I'd say there's a level of truth in it. However, to be sure, feel free to research the people involved in the story and come to your own conclusions WITHOUT PRESUMPTION.

And for anyone who thinks it's anti-Semitic (yes Reuben, that includes you), get a better description of Semitic. To be Semitic INCLUDES being Arabic, not just Jewish. It's the most socially, politically and historically incorrect description of what is better termed as "anti-Zionist" and desperately needs changing. Don't fall into the trap you're so desperate to stand apart from.

[Angie]

Quote: from IRANeAZAD5:
that site is complete garbage

read the nice message they have on top of the site about uniting the human race then scroll downto see that shit - they are such hypocritesFeel free to explain to me at any time how they're hypocrites because they post something that shows such violence and hatred of one race TOWARDS THEIR OWN PEOPLE. The site is garbage for the reason that they talk of inhumane injustices done towards other Arabs?

How DARE they! How DARE they slight the immortal Jewish name with such falseties as claiming the IDF are a pack of violent, innocent-killing mongrels. I suppose the recent stories appearing in the mainstream media, covering all aspects of how they're invading and destroying whole communities are falseties as well?

Not from the photographic evidence I've seen, sorry.

[IRANeAZAD5]

they are hypocrites because they use islam to promote hate.

shit the whole fn arab world is anti semetic
fuck them

[Angie]

Apparently you missed the post I made before my last one. The Arabic world CANNOT BE ANTI-SEMITIC. The Arabic world IS Semitic.

[jon doe]

G'day

i personally never questioned the validity of the story and yes it is shocking and distgusting but for this site to say that it promotes peace and then say the root of all evil are jews is a bit over the top. as the article shows the problem is'nt jews as much as certain jews (most of the idf and politicians)

hate begets hate
war begets war

thanks
-r.

[Guest1]

Yeah, I was under the impression that this thread was discussing the article, not the site. Yes, the site is racist, but there is nothing in the article that is racist. Forget what site it's on, the source is Ha'aretz. I find it funny that you all jumped onto the site, but Angie's the only one who acknowledged that the article even existed. No one else even mentions it? Talk about missing the point. I'm pretty disappointed. I've spent my entire adolescence being isolated from my parents and culture because I disagree with their racist views... but I didn't do it so my comrades could then turn around and dismiss Arabs as racists and ignore the plight of a people oppressed for 53 years.

[Reuben]

'Why do JEWS always start in with the anti-semite bull shit whenever they or israel are criticized?

Another attack on Jews in general...


If you look at this hread and get past your stupid prejudice you would see that both Jews on this thread r oppositional to Israel!
We are not talking aboutt anti-semitism because of attacks on us as individuals or attacks on Israel. We are legitimately describing as anti-semitic comments from so called socialists who say they 'think hitler was right' and make the kind of jew specific attack that you just made

Ok sorry Che y Mar. for ignoring the article. I dont think i have ever ignored the plight of the Palestinian people who I am 100 per cent in support of.

ANGIE YOU MUST BE CRAZY if you think that what is on that site simply extends to anti-zionism,. On a semantic level you are completely right. However he term anti-semitism was coined, rightly or wrongly, to describe the movement of modern jew-hatred which arose out of european nationalism. It was actually coined by an anti-semite.

I recognize that anti-zionism sometimes gets called anti-semitism. Yert there is a genuine degree of anti-semitism (or anti-jewish racism) which needs to be opposed. check out this info on the developement of modern antisemitism http://www.friends-partners.org/partners/b...english/23.html (http://www.friends-partners.org/partners/beyond-the-pale/english/23.html)

Angie if you have actually been to the website i would be seriously worried at the way you are defending it

(Edited by Reuben at 11:41 am on Oct. 19, 2002)

[Angie]

Reuben, my views are very similar to Che y Marijuana's. (Thanks btw, Che.)

I don't support the site, but I do support that article. I'm amazed that there are people here who'll jump onto the whole bash-the-site bandwagon so readily when there's a perfectly decent (in general terms, not subject-specific) article upon the site which should not be denied the view.

For me to support both would be like someone else saying, "I love an article someone posted upon a fascist, Right-Wing website's forum because it stressed the importance of not being fascist - so automatically I must love the fascist, Right-Wing website!" The same theory could be flipped, with someone claiming how they enjoy participating upon such a forum as this one here at Che-Lives, then automatically considering Capitalist Imperial's conservative, short-sighted posts to be a stroke of genius because they appear upon this forum. It's a bit of a stretch, to say the very least.

In short, you don't have to like the website to get something out of one of the articles. They're don't have to walk hand-in-hand.

I didn't make this topic so people could say how bigotted the website was. I made it so people could read an article that just happened to have come from the site. A very important distinction that the good majority of people who've participated upon this thread have forgotten.

[Comrade Babar]

Angie, I suspect this is simply due to your own ignorance - but, your title is very anti-semitic being an anti-semite is something I assume you really want to be labelled as so you can give the usual pseudo-socialist anti-Yiddish "I don't hate Jews I hate Zionists..." routine which is fair enough when it's actually valid, but judging by the title of this topic it certainly is not in this context!

Furthermore, you should apologise to Reuben for your blatant anti-semitism.

Oh, and whilst the term semitic can be used to describe not only Jews but Arabs the term anti-semitic was created for the specific purpose of being able to label anti-Jewish sentiment such as yours. Any attempt at confusing the term anti-semitism and equating it with being 'anti-Arab' generally is not only apologetic in regards to anti-semitic Arab prejudice but also equates Israel with Nazi Germany. I find this morally repugnant.

[Jaha]

angie, your title confuses me more than an inaccurate map!

who was supposed to learn? the jews for being unjustly tourtured and slauttered or the nazis 'cause they got *****-slapped hard when the allies found out?

please clarify this. it worries me because your posts never mention a nazi uprising or anything, and you would be a fool if you were refering to the jews......

[Comrade Babar]

Also, it should be pointed out to Angie that not every Israeli is a Jew and not every Jew is an Israeli - labelling Jews in the Diaspora as Israelis because they're Jewish is also anti-semitic.

[Reuben]

Babar, IMO angie is not an anti-semite. You are wrong to say she has displayed 'blatant antisemitism. Although the title was a little clumsy . If some one had made a post about Farrakhan entitles 'youd think they would have learned from dslaery' i could how this could easily be misinterpretted as general indictment of African Americans.

Having said that Angie, im sure, did not mean it this way and is NOT an anti-semite.

However, angie, i fel you are wrong to define what is described as anitsemitism as 'the most socially, politically and historically incorrect description of what is better termed as "anti-Zionist"']

Your right that the term semitic does refer to all arab peoples yet the term anti-semitic does nt simply reffer to oposition to Israel. It also describes a genuinely existent movement of modern jew hatred. To dismiss this simply as anti-zionism is untruthful

[Comrade Babar]

Fair enough, Reuben, I'll attribute the title to ignorance rather than racism. No one on this thread is equating anti-Zionism with anti-semitism.

By the way, Reuben, where in Britain do you live?

[Reuben]

i live in london .

(Edited by Reuben at 10:30 pm on Oct. 19, 2002)

[IHP]

enough of semantics! bloody hell, this thread, i believe, was started with good intentions, and it's come down to

"Also, it should be pointed out to Angie that not every Israeli is a Jew and not every Jew is an Israeli - labelling Jews in the Diaspora as Israelis because they're Jewish is also anti-semitic."

for crying out loud, do you have an opinion on the article or what?!

Angie, in reference to the article, that is both shocking, and sickening. Its so awful that humans, the "intelligent" race, could do such things.

My mother has a jewish friend, and when i asked her about the palestinians, she said that "they live like animals, and they're disgusting" what blatant disgusting racism. and everyone who has been drilling Angie, no, im not saying that all israelis are racist and think the same, just an example that gives this article some credibility.
--IHP

[Angie]

LOL! That's the first time I've ever been referred to as an Anti-Semite! No, m'dear Comrade Babar, I am not an Anti-Semite, far from it. I am, however, and Anti-Zionist in that I am blatantly unimpressed and rather horrified in what the Zionist government of Israel are and have been doing to the Palestinians. To answer your next question, no, I do not accept the actions of suicide bombers, but yes, I do understand why it has come to such a point.

I am also against what Zionists are doing within such countries as Australia, Britain, and especially the United States - I am blatantly against their tradition of buying politicians, and thus votes in their favour, regardless of what the everyday people's opinions are. I am exceedingly against the whole, "Dare speak out against our practises and you're both Anti-Semite and Anti-American, and thus a traitor to both" mindset that's currently infused itself into the United States. However, this post is relation to Zionists presently living in Israel, so I will return it to that topic.

Claiming such beliefs as the above don't make me racist, it makes me someone who's got very strong opinions against such political values as the Zionists hold. I am very, VERY, much against the superiority complex that they feel they have over everyone else, especially the Palestinians.

And no - my title was NOT ignorantly made, NOR was it a mistake. It was very much intended to be worded like that. Why? Because if history has shown that locking people up for doing nothing but being who they are and attempting to live innocent lives (such as the good majority of Jewish people were during the Nazi years) is such a bad, horrific thing as they would like us to believe, then WHY DO IT TO THE PALESTINIANS!?!

It just doesn't make any sense. And it certainly doesn't sound like they've learnt anything from the Auschwitz Experience.

Sure, the present-day Israelis are most likely all born in Israel and not Germany or wherever else the Nazis touched, but that's not actually the point here: The point is that it was their own Ancestors who were treated so badly, and an eye-for-an-eye is never an acceptible means of action, especially when you're lashing out at another culture entirely. (ie. if the Germans hit the Jews who went on to become Israelis, that doesn't make it alright for future Israelis to hit the Palestinians in a very similar fashion, putting it in layman's terms. If anything, they should be DISSUADED from repeating history, because they've already experienced how bad it can be.)

Is it suddenly okay, because it's the (Zionist) Israelis doing it to the Palestinians? No it most bloody well is not. History is repeating itself, just in a different way. But this time, the world calls it acceptible, because the Palestinians are being regarded as Sub-Human by the Zionist lobby who runs the West's major media sources, therefore influencing the general populace's opinion of said "Sub-Humanism", and that's just NOT ON.

Sometimes it takes a supposedly "shocking" remark like relating such a thing to Auschwitz (and it CAN indeed be related to it) to make people realise the problems with it. I'm brave enough to allow the fire to burn hotter if it means that people will see what's wrong with the situation.

If you are afraid to stand up and make a difference in any way you can, that's your problem. Your weakness is your short-coming, and I find it is irrelevant to my cause so aren't likely to get upset over it in any way, shape or form.

I am ready to fight for the people who need it the most, and right now, that includes the Palestinians. Therefore, I do not apologise for anything I have said.

[Angie]

The following is a reply to a Private Message I sent to Reuben this evening. I have decided to post it here because the comments Reuben sent in his own message were also shown in an earlier post he made upon this thread. So, in the spirit of sharing, I'll place my response here also, so that everyone may read it. It's been slightly altered, the irrelevant portions removed, but apart from that, it's exactly I put it in the PM.

Update: I've just realised that I probably screwed up that PM message, so this is a better one to read. :biggrin:

Please be advised that there are two back-to-back posts from me here. It is important that any of you reading this one make a point of reading the other one as well. Thank you.

- - - - -

You are correct - I have made a boo about my description, but only partially. I was not descriptive enough.

When I mentioned that Anti-Zionism is not Anti-Semitism, it was being truthful. (Self-edit for thread version: Again, I wasn't descriptive enough, there was more to it.) My reasoning:

Anti-Zionism: The act of being against the Zionist belief system and the accompanying actions;

Anti-Semitism: The act of being against the cultures that have 'spawned' (for want of a better word) from the ancient Semitic culture, which I believe was directly related to Ancient Sumeria. There are something like 4 or 5 different present-day cultures that come under that umbrella;

One title is political in nature, the other is cultural in nature. To be Anti-Semitic is to hate any (and probably all) of the 4 or 5 cultures directly linked to Ancient Sumeria, but to be Anti-Zionist doesn't equate one to being Anti-Semitic UNLESS the person is deliberately both.

Not being aware of their position towards Arabs, I am unaware if a Nazi could be considered both Anti-Semitic and Anti-Zionist. My guess is that if they're calling themselves Nazi because they just don't like Jewish people, then no. But if they're calling themselves Nazis because they believe that the one true race is white and Germanic by nature, then yes, it's quite possible (but still questionable to some extent, an issue which would take me into another message entirely). It comes down to the individual views that each person holds, which may well differ despite them all calling themselves Nazis. Socialists hold different views with similar basic principles - same sort of idea. (Doesn't make us aligned with Nazis, it simply means our beliefs both have a basic, generic structure of how we form the information we work with. The information itself differs dramatically.)

In short, I understand that there is a political ideal of calling any "Israeli-hater" (or whatever) an Anti-Semite, but when one accepts the Arabs, the title just doesn't fit anymore, therefore I do not acknowledge such a slur as being factual. It becomes nothing more than idiotic "name-calling" and should be the signal that points to someone's need for re-education.

It is just that - a slur. And a socially, historically incorrect one at that. I used "politically" in my description, and I realise now that I was incorrect with that one, as some people CAN be both Anti-Zionist and Anti-Semitic, thus making it a political possibility. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.

I agree with you: We must attempt to re-educate those people who are Anti-Jewish, as the present issues are formed not with being Jewish, but with being Zionist. But I cannot accept that Anti-Semitic is a term which should be applied to such people who are 'Anti-Jewish yet Pro/Neutral-Arabic'. I cannot accept it as a title to be applied to people who are 'Anti-Zionist, Pro/Neutral-Jewish, and Pro/Neutral-Arabic' (the latter description of the two being the one I myself adhere to). Therefore, the flaw is in both the "logic" and in the education. The fact that it exists and is used does not make it acceptible. Those descriptions that you provided ("The word describes a genuine movemnet which does not simply amount to opposing Israel, but instead describes a genuine level of Jew hatred. To say the word anti-semitism simply describes Anti-zionism is incorrect. It also is used (inaccurately) describes a dangerous and reactionary movement of Jew-hatred which we as socialists must fight against." ) are therefore incorrect and must be changed. The movements mentioned are horrific and must be stopped, but using the term "Anti-Semite" on them for the pure reason that they are (possibly ONLY) Anti-Jewish is also incorrect and must be stopped. They are Anti-Jewish until it is proven that they are also Anti-Arabic (and/or Anti-Middle Eastern), then and only then can they be accurately referred to as Anti-Semitic.

I sincerely apologise for the treatment you have received for being of Jewish background, and cannot claim to relate to it. I will accept giving you nothing less than my total honesty there.

However, the issue will unfortunately not be lessened for you until terminologies changed and the re-education begins. Narrowing down the types of people who are being referred to as "Anti-Semitic" is the first step at making "Anti-Jewish" feelings isolated and therefore easier to deal with. They're easier to cope with when we're not lumping various different people all in the same boat where some of them just don't belong.

- - - - -

(Edited by Angie at 9:41 pm on Oct. 20, 2002)

[Comrade Babar]

"LOL! That's the first time I've ever been referred to as an Anti-Semite! No, m'dear Comrade Babar, I am not an Anti-Semite, far from it."

You write like an anti-semite. *shrug*

"I am, however, and Anti-Zionist in that I am blatantly unimpressed and rather horrified in what the Zionist government of Israel are and have been doing to the Palestinians. To answer your next question, no, I do not accept the actions of suicide bombers, but yes, I do understand why it has come to such a point."

Yes, indeed, it's important to realise quite why Palestinian Nationalism has come to the point of Palestinians blowing themselves up. I put it to you that it's simply the height of rejectionism and Arab religo-racism. Moreover it's a powerful propaganda tool (more so in Europe than America admittedly) and though it is an almost unique phenomenon, the British media has used Palestinian terrorism in order to rationalise radical Islam.

"I am also against what Zionists are doing within such countries as Australia, Britain, and especially the United States - I am blatantly against their tradition of buying politicians, and thus votes in their favour, regardless of what the everyday people's opinions are."

I’m not entirely sure why you’re citing Britain as an example of a country where Zionists have any power at all – the British foreign office is very pro-Arab, Israel was created against British wishes and our Prime Minister’s wife almost seems to advocate Palestinian terrorism. The Labour party is full of Palestinian supporters and the Conservative party never speaks in favour of Israel. I'm not about to make any assumptions about Australian politics because I know very little about it.

"Claiming such beliefs as the above don't make me racist, it makes me someone who's got very strong opinions against such political values as the Zionists hold. I am very, VERY, much against the superiority complex that they feel they have over everyone else, especially the Palestinians."

Anti-Zionism isn’t anti-semitic, I agree, however, attempting to mirror the actions of the IDF with that of the Waffen-SS obviously is. As to the supposed superiority complex I think this may exist partly in the form of xenophobia which is at least partly justified, if my country was continually condemned by the UN for defending itself (whereas other countries who do so in a less humanitarian manner are ignored) I think I would be inclined to be a little xenophobic too.

"And no - my title was NOT ignorantly made, NOR was it a mistake. It was very much intended to be worded like that. Why? Because if history has shown that locking people up for doing nothing but being who they are and attempting to live innocent lives (such as the good majority of Jewish people were during the Nazi years) is such a bad, horrific thing as they would like us to believe, then WHY DO IT TO THE PALESTINIANS?!?"

Again I find your comparison morally repugnant, as to collective punishments and curfews – how about Chechnya? Russian military methods in Chechnya are far more brutal than the IDF’s, presumably you know more about the Israeli-Arab conflict, why? Would you kick up as nearly as much fuss about Russian imperialism?

"It just doesn't make any sense. And it certainly doesn't sound like they've learnt anything from the Auschwitz Experience."

See above.

"Sure, the present-day Israelis are most likely all born in Israel and not Germany or wherever else the Nazis touched, but that's not actually the point here: The point is that it was their own Ancestors who were treated so badly, and an eye-for-an-eye is never an acceptible means of action, especially when you're lashing out at another culture entirely. (ie. if the Germans hit the Jews who went on to become Israelis, that doesn't make it alright for future Israelis to hit the Palestinians in a very similar fashion, putting it in layman's terms. If anything, they should be DISSUADED from repeating history, because they've already experienced how bad it can be.)"

My point was that citing the Holocaust was not only anti-semitic but also stupid – do you think every single Holocaust survivor went to live in Israel? Do you think that every single Jew lives in Israel? Why is it that Israelis, or Jews… as you like to put it cannot defend themselves? Why must Israel be condemned for collateral damage whereas other countries are not?

"Is it suddenly okay, because it's the (Zionist) Israelis doing it to the Palestinians? No it most bloody well is not. History is repeating itself, just in a different way. But this time, the world calls it acceptible, because the Palestinians are being regarded as Sub-Human by the Zionist lobby who runs the West's major media sources, therefore influencing the general populace's opinion of said "Sub-Humanism", and that's just NOT ON."

On the contrary, the only countries that treat the Palestinians as sub-human are the Arab countries who continue not only refuse asylum to Palestinians but also, after having invaded Israel and losing – kept Palestinians in awful, truly sub-human conditions… ghettoes even, in order to exacerbate their suffering for the purpose of garnering sympathy at the UN. That’s what I call treating people as sub-humans.

"Sometimes it takes a supposedly "shocking" remark like relating such a thing to Auschwitz (and it CAN indeed be related to it) to make people realise the problems with it. I'm brave enough to allow the fire to burn hotter if it means that people will see what's wrong with the situation.

If you are afraid to stand up and make a difference in any way you can, that's your problem. Your weakness is your short-coming, and I find it is irrelevant to my cause so aren't likely to get upset over it in any way, shape or form.

I am ready to fight for the people who need it the most, and right now, that includes the Palestinians. Therefore, I do not apologise for anything I have said."

If you really want people to associate anti-Zionism with anti-semitism then by all means you should continue to make topics with similar names.

[Comrade Babar]

My mother has a jewish friend, and when i asked her about the palestinians, she said that "they live like animals, and they're disgusting" what blatant disgusting racism. and everyone who has been drilling Angie, no, im not saying that all israelis are racist and think the same, just an example that gives this article some credibility.

Why does a non-Israeli Jew represent the beliefs of all Israelis? Sounds like collectively responsibility there, Comrade.

[IHP]

First of all comrade Babar, you've made an incorrect assumption, saying that an non-Israeli jew would have that opinion. That is untrue, she is in fact Israeli.

Secondly, look at the quote from me, and that will answer the question that you're asking. Did I not say that I wasn't claiming "that all Israelis are racist and think the same"??? Is that not correct comrade???

My point was simply that this lady, an intelligent and friendly woman, could have such a racist out-look on the issue, gave the article credibility. I never said that all Israelis are of this opinion.

--IHP


(Edited by i hate pinochet at 3:12 am on Oct. 21, 2002)

[Angie]

"You write like an anti-semite. *shrug* "

I write like an Anti-Zionist. An Anti-Semite would be running around yelling out, "I hate Jews! I hate Arabs! I hate Canaanites! I hate Carthaginians! I hate Aramaeans! I hate Akkadians! I hate Phoenicians! I hate Babylonians! I hate Sumerians!", etc, etc. Add any other number of cultures that have existed in that part of the world, and you get my drift.

That's a lot of cultures, some modern, some less-modern, some ancient. And I certainly don't hate any of them. I hate the theory that says that Zionists must take back something that they were booted out of 2000 years ago (let's just remember here that they weren't kicked out by the ancestors of the Palestinians, but by the Romans), so must slaughter as many people as possible to get that land back. THAT is just wrong. The United Nations provided land. "Be happy with what you have, or find somewhere else to live" - that should be the motto. The majority of other people upon the planet lives to that motto contently enough, what gives a Zionist the right to be any different? The fact that the Bible says they are part of "God's Chosen Race"? Absolute bollocks.

"Yes, indeed, it's important to realise quite why Palestinian Nationalism has come to the point of Palestinians blowing themselves up. I put it to you that it's simply the height of rejectionism and Arab religo-racism. Moreover it's a powerful propaganda tool (more so in Europe than America admittedly) and though it is an almost unique phenomenon, the British media has used Palestinian terrorism in order to rationalise radical Islam."

My, my, my - we are a little Anti-Arab, aren't we? I think placing it down to "rejectionism" and "Arab religo-racism" is a little short-sighted, at best. When new a nation "moves in", an act that is acceptible to a point, considering the people's horrific recent history at that time - it's one thing. But when it actively starts expanding it's borders to take in more land, to the point of starting wars with it's neighbours over it, it's no longer as acceptible. But by all means, stitch "rejectionism" and "Arab religo-racism" in there wherever you see fit. Personally, were I a Palestinian who was constantly having to deal with illegal settlement expansion, I'd be up in arms about it as well. "Common decency" and "acceptance of what you have" went out the window with those people who feel it alright to engage in expansion - thus destroying the lives of others in the process, for the sake of their own egos and superiority-complexes.

"I’m not entirely sure why you’re citing Britain as an example of a country where Zionists have any power at all – the British foreign office is very pro-Arab, Israel was created against British wishes and our Prime Minister’s wife almost seems to advocate Palestinian terrorism. The Labour party is full of Palestinian supporters and the Conservative party never speaks in favour of Israel. I'm not about to make any assumptions about Australian politics because I know very little about it."

I was referring to the West, and the all-emcompassing throat hold that Zionism appears to have squeezed around it. It infiltrates everything, everywhere, because that is the whole point of the exercise. Were Britain as uneffected by Zionism as you claim, we'd have seen a harsher retort to the present violence, coming from their direction. As it currently appears, Britain is about as weak as Bush when it comes to the whole issue of stopping Palestinian "punishment." Where are the top-level government officials putting their foot down and blatantly announcing their dissatisfaction, instead of some weedy little whispered "Oh please don't do it", followed by immediate silence? Bush tells Sharon to stop it, too - then signs another cheque for the IDF's military fund. I'm certain there are people in the Labour party who want it all to stop, but considering Blair's latest actions, I'd say it's pretty fair to believe that their leader stopped listening to them a long time ago.

"Anti-Zionism isn’t anti-semitic, I agree, however, attempting to mirror the actions of the IDF with that of the Waffen-SS obviously is. As to the supposed superiority complex I think this may exist partly in the form of xenophobia which is at least partly justified, if my country was continually condemned by the UN for defending itself (whereas other countries who do so in a less humanitarian manner are ignored) I think I would be inclined to be a little xenophobic too."

Israel is hardly defending itself. Israel has been vicious and callous in it's desperate need to expand it's borders - if that pisses off the people living around them, then Israel will be slapped for it, and rightly so. Retaliating against such slaps is not "defending oneself", I'm sorry. (On top of that, Israel has been defying the United Nations in every way it possibly can since 1967, it's not making a good picture of the "Perfect Nation", is it?) Instead of "defending itself", Israel is showing itself to be a nation that should be treated suspiciously AT BEST. In short, the United Nations provided Israel with a new home, but no - that wasn't good enough, was it? Have you actually looked at the differences in the maps from now and then, lately? They're considerably different, the current one is considerably larger.

Oh, and while I'm still thinking about it, Jerusalem was well and truly part of Palestine back when Israel was created. And Bush recently broke at least two United Nations resolutions by "signing in" Jerusalem as Israel's capital, therefore the act is illegal and unrecognisable by the global population. No surprise there, on either account. Thought you might like to know, though.

"Again I find your comparison morally repugnant, as to collective punishments and curfews - how about Chechnya? Russian military methods in Chechnya are far more brutal than the IDF’s, presumably you know more about the Israeli-Arab conflict, why? Would you kick up as nearly as much fuss about Russian imperialism?"

Morally repugnant, my arse. The descendants of WWII's victims should remember their own people's history - they, OF ALL PEOPLE, should know not to repeat history, but, as this article shows, there are a lot of people with a lot of influence within the country who apparently do not. THAT is what is repugnant. One of them is the war criminal sitting in power, giving out the orders for Palestinians to be slaughtered, regardless of what they were doing, where they were going, or if they were man, woman, or child. HE is repugnant.

The issue of history repeating itself applies EVERYWHERE it occurs, but we are presently talking about Israel and Palestine. Spin the globe and point your finger in the right spot, m'dear, you're slipping. I abhor any form of imperialism - I'm in a Communist community, remember? It's one of the first things we wish to abolish. I have issues with such oppression everywhere that it occurs. Do try not to spin away from the topic of present discussion, though, it's distracting for the other readers.

"My point was that citing the Holocaust was not only anti-semitic but also stupid – do you think every single Holocaust survivor went to live in Israel? Do you think that every single Jew lives in Israel? Why is it that Israelis, or Jews… as you like to put it cannot defend themselves? Why must Israel be condemned for collateral damage whereas other countries are not?"

Again, for those hard of hearing, one cannot call citing the Holocaust as Anti-Semitic if another's only problem is with Zionism and it's hypocrisy of allowing history to repeat itself. If such a person doesn't have a problem with Judaism, or Islam, then they can hardly be considered Anti-Semitic as the whole POINT of being Anti-Semitic is to be against the cultures that spawned from an earlier race.

No, I don't think all Jews went to Israel. That's not the issue. The issue is that those who went to Israel, and are Zionists (obviously not all Jews are Zionists), are causing issues that cannot be considered "defending themselves" when they are the main source of aggression within the region. That "collateral damage" is murder, plain and simple, sometimes to the point of being genocide. People being slaughtered at checkpoints, in their homes, in schools (yes, that story about the IDF bombing a school recently DID get out into public knowledge). Bombing a school? Since when was that "defending themselves"? Were there children in there that might have become suicide bombers a few years down the track? Is this an example of Bush's "Pre-emptive Strike" theory? Get them while they're still young? It wasn't an accident, it was intentionally meant to happen. If you have the gall to try to explain away the "logic" behind it, you've got as much blood on your hands as the IDF.

"On the contrary, the only countries that treat the Palestinians as sub-human are the Arab countries who continue not only refuse asylum to Palestinians but also, after having invaded Israel and losing – kept Palestinians in awful, truly sub-human conditions… ghettoes even, in order to exacerbate their suffering for the purpose of garnering sympathy at the UN. That’s what I call treating people as sub-humans."

Herding up innocent Palestinians into inhumane conditions such as described in the original article of this thread is treating them as sub-humans. Slaughtering Palestinians like they were a herd of cattle is treating them as sub-human. Guilty country number one: Israel. Not standing in and making a true effort to stop the warfare going on between the two nations, and therefore essentially telling Israel that it's tactics are harsh but not harsh enough to deserve global retaliation, is treating Palestinians as sub-human. Guilty countries: the United States, Britain, Australia. The list could keep going on.

"If you really want people to associate anti-Zionism with anti-semitism then by all means you should continue to make topics with similar names."

You seriously do not get it, do you? Honestly, you're missing so many points that it's actually funny. You refuse to understand what the hell Anti-Semitism TRULY means, and that's such an important issue that it throws the rest of your perspective into disarray. Seriously, go out and learn your history from a perspective that is not so Zionist, you might be surprised where it takes you. And do try to get over that little Anti-Arab glitch in your character before you come back here and debate properly. In the meantime, I will only be accepting decent debates from people who actually know what they're talking about, as clearly you do not.

[IHP]

Comrade Babar, have you seen any interviews with Ariel Sharon? There was one on TV in Australia and he completely and utterly avoided any questions regarding any kind of compromise whatsoever. His only statement that realted to peace was that he strove for a total ceasation of terrorist acts. Well, Ariel, aren't we all? What he doesn't realize, and I gather (correct me if I'm wrong here) you don't either, is that people just don't blow themselves up because they are crazy (no offense to the mentally ill). There is a reason why the oppressed are fighting back. Did you even read the article at the beginning of this thread? If you did, did you simply reject is rubbish? If so, comrade, you are more a product of western propaganda than I thought. Even should the facts contained within the article turn out to be not entirely accurate, and slightly exaggerated, these people are poor and oppressed!! they need to try and open the eyes of the world to the shocking situation over there.

Also, I had the unfortunate pleasure of seeing a little skit, made in Israel. It showed two Israeli soldiers charge into a house crying "Where's Ahmed!?" the Palestinians who own the "house" (it was one cement room) said to "leave him alone." The soliders starting yelling "you dont think that this is hard for me too!" he shot all the Palestinians and the other soldier said to all the murdered Palestinians: "Look what you've done, my god, look what you've done!!" puts his arm around the soldier who shot them all and said "you'll be okay, come on, you'll be okay". This was an Israeli comedy. ha ha, not funny.

--IHP

[Comrade Babar]

“I write like an Anti-Zionist. An Anti-Semite would be running around yelling out, "I hate Jews! I hate Arabs! I hate Canaanites! I hate Carthaginians! I hate Aramaeans! I hate Akkadians! I hate Phoenicians! I hate Babylonians! I hate Sumerians!", etc, etc. Add any other number of cultures that have existed in that part of the world, and you get my drift.”

Anti-semitism only applies to anti-Jewish sentiment, it was a European term used to describe anti-Jewish sentiment in Europe. Secondly, most neo-Nazis don’t go around shouting things such as ‘I hate Jews’, they act subtly… claiming to attack Zionism, etc. Just as you, and many others on the ‘left’ do, unfortunately.

”That's a lot of cultures, some modern, some less-modern, some ancient. And I certainly don't hate any of them. I hate the theory that says that Zionists must take back something that they were booted out of 2000 years ago (let's just remember here that they weren't kicked out by the ancestors of the Palestinians, but by the Romans), so must slaughter as many people as possible to get that land back. THAT is just wrong.”

Something to note, while it’s true the Romans kicked the Jews out of Judah – the Philistines were also not the Palestinians, nor were they even semitic. Palestinians have not be slaughtered, well… perhaps they have been in anti-Israeli propaganda.

“The United Nations provided land. "Be happy with what you have, or find somewhere else to live" - that should be the motto. The majority of other people upon the planet lives to that motto contently enough, what gives a Zionist the right to be any different? The fact that the Bible says they are part of "God's Chosen Race"? Absolute bollocks.”

Zionism is more or less a secular movement, and, well… this quote from Theodore Herzel’s book Der Judenstaat should explain why Zionism came about:


Everything tends, in fact, to one and the same conclusion, which is clearly enunciated in that classic Berlin phrase: "Juden Raus" (Out with the Jews !)
shall now put the Question in the briefest possible form: Are we to "get out" now and where to?
Or, may we yet remain? And, how long?

The way in which people such as yourself view Israel is further justification for its continued existence.

“My, my, my - we are a little Anti-Arab, aren't we?”

No more so than anyone on this forum is against the Americans, as a people or indeed the British or any other Western nation.

“ I think placing it down to "rejectionism" and "Arab religo-racism" is a little short-sighted, at best. When new a nation "moves in", an act that is acceptible to a point, considering the people's horrific recent history at that time - it's one thing. But when it actively starts expanding it's borders to take in more land, to the point of starting wars with it's neighbours over it, it's no longer as acceptible.”

Please cite even one example of this, when the Arab armies invaded Israel after its declaration of independence should the Israelis have simply committed suicide by not fighting back? Allowing themselves to become victims of yet another Holocaust, perhaps?

“But by all means, stitch "rejectionism" and "Arab religo-racism" in there wherever you see fit. Personally, were I a Palestinian who was constantly having to deal with illegal settlement expansion, I'd be up in arms about it as well.”

Palestinians view all of Israel as one settlement, I certainly don’t condone illegal Jewish settlement but if all settlements were uprooted the terrorism would continue and might even increase after seeing that their terrorism could remove Jewish settlement from Gaza - why not the Jewish settlement in Tel Aviv?

“”Common decency" and "acceptance of what you have" went out the window with those people who feel it alright to engage in expansion - thus destroying the lives of others in the process, for the sake of their own egos and superiority-complexes.”

What expansionism are you talking about? The Expansionism imposed upon Israel by the Arab nations?

“I was referring to the West, and the all-emcompassing throat hold that Zionism appears to have squeezed around it. It infiltrates everything, everywhere, because that is the whole point of the exercise.”

Neo-Nazis believe in a Zionist conspiracy too.

“Were Britain as uneffected by Zionism as you claim, we'd have seen a harsher retort to the present violence, coming from their direction.”

What do you expect? NATO planes carpet bombing Tel Aviv? EU financial support for terrorist groups? Wait… the latter already happens.

“As it currently appears, Britain is about as weak as Bush when it comes to the whole issue of stopping Palestinian "punishment." Where are the top-level government officials putting their foot down and blatantly announcing their dissatisfaction, instead of some weedy little whispered "Oh please don't do it", followed by immediate silence?”

http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/...2002042501.html (http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/020425/2002042501.html)

“ Britain on Tuesday condemned the rejection of the Israeli government to accept dealing with the UN fact finding commission to investigate the what is being described as massacres committed by the Israeli forces in Jenin camp in the West Bank.”

This was the ‘massacre’ that the Palestinian claimed, first that it resulted in 3000 deaths, then 500 then 250… and now that it’s clear that there was no massacre at all and that there were heavy IDF casualties it is regarded by the Palestinians are a ‘Victory over the Jews’.

“Bush tells Sharon to stop it, too - then signs another cheque for the IDF's military fund. I'm certain there are people in the Labour party who want it all to stop, but considering Blair's latest actions, I'd say it's pretty fair to believe that their leader stopped listening to them a long time ago.”

You forgot to add that the British government also contributes to the EU, which in turn contributes to Palestinian terrorism. After calling for it to stop, of course.

”Israel is hardly defending itself. Israel has been vicious and callous in it's desperate need to expand it's borders - if that pisses off the people living around them, then Israel will be slapped for it, and rightly so.”

The areas Israel occupied by Israel after the 1967 war were occupied for one reason and one reason only – they were used by Arab countries to launch attacks against Israel, not for any ideological or religious reason – just common bloody sense. With the exception of the Golan Heights, these are areas that were conquered by the Arab nations from what was designated by the UN, by the way. But I forget, you’re only against Western imperialism…

“Retaliating against such slaps is not "defending oneself", I'm sorry. (On top of that, Israel has been defying the United Nations in every way it possibly can since 1967, it's not making a good picture of the "Perfect Nation", is it?) Instead of "defending itself", Israel is showing itself to be a nation that should be treated suspiciously AT BEST. In short, the United Nations provided Israel with a new home, but no - that wasn't good enough, was it? Have you actually looked at the differences in the maps from now and then, lately? They're considerably different, the current one is considerably larger.”

Yes, and Israel’s borders were expanded out of the necessity of self-defence, what’s your point? Do you think Israelis in particular should not have the right of self-defence in their own nation?

“Oh, and while I'm still thinking about it, Jerusalem was well and truly part of Palestine back when Israel was created.”

…by Palestine you mean Transjordan.

“And Bush recently broke at least two United Nations resolutions by "signing in" Jerusalem as Israel's capital, therefore the act is illegal and unrecognisable by the global population. No surprise there, on either account. Thought you might like to know, though.”

Jewish Jerusalem goes to Israel and Muslim Jerusalem goes to Palestine, what is your problem with this?

”Morally repugnant, my arse. The descendants of WWII's victims should remember their own people's history - they, OF ALL PEOPLE, should know not to repeat history, but, as this article shows, there are a lot of people with a lot of influence within the country who apparently do not.”

I don’t see how previously being a victim of genocide means Jews, or more correctly – Israelis are not entitled to the right of self-defence of their sovereign nation.
“THAT is what is repugnant. One of them is the war criminal sitting in power, giving out the orders for Palestinians to be slaughtered, regardless of what they were doing, where they were going, or if they were man, woman, or child. HE is repugnant.”

Ariel Sharon is not a war criminal regardless of what Arabs are trying to push through the odd Belgian law system.

”The issue of history repeating itself applies EVERYWHERE it occurs, but we are presently talking about Israel and Palestine. Spin the globe and point your finger in the right spot, m'dear, you're slipping. I abhor any form of imperialism - I'm in a Communist community, remember? It's one of the first things we wish to abolish. I have issues with such oppression everywhere that it occurs. Do try not to spin away from the topic of present discussion, though, it's distracting for the other readers.”

Stop prevaricating, have you ever made a post about the truly brutal Russian oppression of the Chechens? Or what about the Turkish oppression of the Kurds? If not, why not?

”Again, for those hard of hearing, one cannot call citing the Holocaust as Anti-Semitic if another's only problem is with Zionism and it's hypocrisy of allowing history to repeat itself.”

Equating self-defence with genocide is anti-semitic. In any case, by your logic Communists of native origin in Chile for instance should’ve put up no resistance to Pinochet as this might entail the killing of some civilians – and after all, they should’ve learnt from Spanish brutal colonialism!

“If such a person doesn't have a problem with Judaism, or Islam, then they can hardly be considered Anti-Semitic as the whole POINT of being Anti-Semitic is to be against the cultures that spawned from an earlier race.”

What’s Islam got to do with it? Your topic remains ignorant and anti-semitic. Furthermore I find your continued defence of it to be quite sickening, almost as sickening as I found your defence of the Hitler loving Arab site.

”No, I don't think all Jews went to Israel. That's not the issue. The issue is that those who went to Israel, and are Zionists (obviously not all Jews are Zionists), are causing issues that cannot be considered "defending themselves" when they are the main source of aggression within the region.”

Cite examples of this, go on, I dare you. Don’t just type meaningless slogans.

“That "collateral damage" is murder, plain and simple, sometimes to the point of being genocide.”

What an absurd statement – Israel killing a few civilians who are probably terrorist sympathisers allowing themselves to be used as human shields is given more press attention in three days than Turkey’s real genocide of Armenians. You clearly don’t know what the word genocide means.

“People being slaughtered at checkpoints, in their homes, in schools (yes, that story about the IDF bombing a school recently DID get out into public knowledge). Bombing a school? Since when was that "defending themselves"? Were there children in there that might have become suicide bombers a few years down the track? Is this an example of Bush's "Pre-emptive Strike" theory? Get them while they're still young? It wasn't an accident, it was intentionally meant to happen. If you have the gall to try to explain away the "logic" behind it, you've got as much blood on your hands as the IDF.”

Er, the only person thinking along these lines is you.


Herding up innocent Palestinians into inhumane conditions such as described in the original article of this thread is treating them as sub-humans. Slaughtering Palestinians like they were a herd of cattle is treating them as sub-human. Guilty country number one: Israel.

Israel doesn’t slaughter Palestinians. Jordan however, does, presumably you’re familiar with black September? Why do you think Jordanians can butcher thousands of Palestinians civilian or otherwise while Israel is condemned by all and sundry if it only kills a couple while targeting a terrorist? Perhaps for the same reason you think it’s legitimate to have such a horrid topic name?

“Not standing in and making a true effort to stop the warfare going on between the two nations, and therefore essentially telling Israel that it's tactics are harsh but not harsh enough to deserve global retaliation, is treating Palestinians as sub-human. Guilty countries: the United States, Britain, Australia. The list could keep going on.”

Again, why do you consider the Jewish state in particular to warrant bombing from the West?

”You seriously do not get it, do you? Honestly, you're missing so many points that it's actually funny. You refuse to understand what the hell Anti-Semitism TRULY means, and that's such an important issue that it throws the rest of your perspective into disarray. Seriously, go out and learn your history from a perspective that is not so Zionist, you might be surprised where it takes you. And do try to get over that little Anti-Arab glitch in your character before you come back here and debate properly. In the meantime, I will only be accepting decent debates from people who actually know what they're talking about, as clearly you do not.”

You seem incapable of understanding what anti-semitism means yourself, so much so that you don’t even know that what you’re saying is very anti-semitic whether you know it or not.

[Angie]

Anti-semitism only applies to anti-Jewish sentiment, it was a European term used to describe anti-Jewish sentiment in Europe.*wrong-answer buzzer* Sorry! Care to try again?

I think someone needs a HISTORY LESSON (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13706a.htm)! :biggrin:

That post was so hilariously funny, I barely know where to begin, there just so much to pick at!

First of all, I think it necessary to begin with the fact that Comrade Babar has conveniently not bothered disputing IHP's comments regarding being a product of Western propaganda. I think that we can all believe after Babar's latest thesis that he is not just a product of Western propaganda, but that he is so seriously brainwashed that he refuses to see anything more than only what he has already decided he wants to see.

A perfect example of that is his undying refusal to look beyond the - incorrect, mind you - political meaning of "Anti-Semite". Were Babar to do some research, he would learn, as many of us have already learnt, that the word Semite actually goes back into history a number of millennia and is not restricted to Judaism. The link above gives a rather nice overview of the situation there, I do encouage any interested parties to have a look-see when they have a free moment.

Secondly, whereas people like myself are trying to use language to lesson the number of people incorrectly placed under the title of Anti-Semite, Babar here feels it apparent to slap people under any painful title he can possible think of, when it is blatantly obvious that the title does not actually fit. Calling me Anti-Semite is like calling Jesus an Anti-Semite because he gathered a following of people who called themseves Christians and who later went about kicking the Jewish, blaming them for the death of Jesus. Jesus starting an Anti-Jewish group? Heavens above, he must be an Anti-Semite!

Let's see a show of hands here - who thinks Jesus is an Anti-Semite?

However, I digress. We have evolved. I am now likened to a Neo-Nazi. :biggrin:

How that is possible is beyond me. I do not believe the Jewish race to be inferior to myself. I do not believe the Arabic race to be inferior to myself. I do not believe my race to be superior to ANY other race. I'm not even a patriot of my own nation, I merely carry it's title as it was where I was born and thus is printed upon my Birth Certificate. That said, my only allegiance is with the Human race. Hell, sometimes not even with that, when I stop to analyse just how destructive we can become towards each other.

That said, I have failed all the main points that make one an Anti-Semite, AND a Neo-Nazi.

I am Anti-Zionist because I do not believe in one nation or belief system pushing it's obvious might over another. Much as I am Anti-Imperialist and Anti-Americanist (description: I am not against the Americans themselves, I am however against Americanism, especially Global Americanism) for the same reasons. It's one thing when two nations squabble, and are relatively equal in strength (such as is the case with a lot of wars), we just separate them and tell them both to go home like two squabbling schoolboys, but when it is clearly so one-sided as is the case with the present situations with Israel and Palestine, or America and Iraq, (or America with anyone, for that matter), then we have a situation on our hands and I will take the underdog because they cannot fight for themselves well enough to survive the battle. The casualties, the "collateral damage" as it was so poetically phrased, becomes far too high and collateral damage is RARELY ever acceptible.

In seeing the Zionists gaining power in practically every influential field imaginable, it is logical to assume this is a form of Global Monopoly, a form of Imperialism with one outlook: To see that the Zionist beliefs are never questioned, and thus prove exceedingly difficult to attack. This would be slightly - slightly - acceptible if it were only about the beliefs, however it is not. As we can see in America today, if one is to dare question the position of the Zionists, they lose their livelihood quicker than they can say the word "Zionist." They lose their jobs, they lose their respectibility, they sometimes lose their very lives. U.S Senator Cynthia McKinney was one of the higher-profile examples of this, though there have literally been thousands of examples over the last year alone. The Zionists are much like the Neo-Nazis in that they have a very set idea of what is, and is not, acceptible. Be damned anyone else.

And, as the original article of this thread shows, anyone who is different, regardless of their level of innocence (or lack thereof), is going to suffer under Zionist rule. Innocent Palestinians looking for employment will be detained. Others will be murdered.

I propose the following questions to the people of this forum, though I am not looking for an answer, merely for you to think about it: When a child throws a rock at you, do you murder them? Or do you do your best to side-step the rocks and physically stop the kid, returning them to their home? How do you address the issue if it is reoccuring? Do you just ignore the root-cause, and hope it goes away? Are you aware that there is a root-cause, or do you believe it's just kids being kids? "Religio-Racism"? At what point does it become acceptible to murder children?

Using that earlier line-of-thought about the Zionist infiltration of foreign nations, it is common knowledge these days to everyone bar the Western corporate media that the Mossad created and controls Hammas, and quite possibly Islamic Jihad. That said, that little theory of "religio-racism" kind of starts inkling out of credibility when one considers that whenever Ariel Sharon wants something to go a certain way (say, to convince the world that the Palestinians are evil, and therefore we must support Israel in anything that it does), something DOES happen, right at the exact precise time. A bus blows up. Or a cafe blows up. Anything to involve suicide bombers, or the like. And the world's opinion sways while it tries to work out where it's "loyalties" lie. How very, very convenient. Next time something like this happens, I suggest people listen to who owns up to it. They might just surprise themselves.

Irregardless of anything that I say, it is clear that Comrade Babar is going to just dopily blumber along with his illogical theories as to how the world works, rather than looking a wee bit harder at the facts that are available to the world if we only dared search for them. Therefore, I could dissect his post more thoroughly, pulling apart every single point that he made, but I don't think that it will make one iota of a difference, considering he will only take in his point of view. Perfect example: I believe I had described what an Anti-Semite is on at least 5 different occasions, either within this thread, or in another, and yet he still blatantly refuses to learn from his mistakes. Why anyone should be made to run around and around in circles because of someone such as he, is beyond me. I honourably step down from the role, and allow the hounds to be released. May history present itself, once again, EXACTLY where it stands. If I cannot teach another peaceably, history will have to force it upon them violently.

And perhaps, if we're very, very lucky, he'll show his opposition to the Left Wing one more time for us - the last display was such a lovely thing to see outside of the Soc-v-Cap forum. Haven't seen one quite that blatant for a while now. I'm not convinced that such a comment deserves a Banning, but I'm pretty certain it should lead to him being catapulted into the other forum and forced to remain there and there alone, amidst Che-Lives.

It appears the Zionists have infiltrated Che-Lives.com after all. Took long enough - I had almost given up on them ever appearing! Welcome, Babar! Take a bow!

[Comrade Babar]

“wrong-answer buzzer* Sorry! Care to try again?

I think someone needs a HISTORY LESSON!

That post was so hilariously funny, I barely know where to begin, there just so much to pick at!”

Anti-semitism, not Semitism. Are you incapable of differentiating between semitic and anti-semitic, or?

”First of all, I think it necessary to begin with the fact that Comrade Babar has conveniently not bothered disputing IHP's comments regarding being a product of Western propaganda.”

I didn’t bother replying to his post, as I don’t know the context in which the examples he gave were displayed and what Western propaganda exactly is pro-Israel? The BBC is anti-Israel, CNN is anti-Israel, etc. The idea you have that the West in general is pro-Israel is, well, absurd… America, yes but certainly not the EU.

“I think that we can all believe after Babar's latest thesis that he is not just a product of Western propaganda, but that he is so seriously brainwashed that he refuses to see anything more than only what he has already decided he wants to see.”

Not really, I read the Fateful Triangle by Noam Chomsky to challenge my own beliefs but it didn’t really change my opinion – though I think it did teach me to look at things a little more objectively.

”A perfect example of that is his undying refusal to look beyond the - incorrect, mind you - political meaning of "Anti-Semite". Were Babar to do some research, he would learn, as many of us have already learnt, that the word Semite actually goes back into history a number of millennia and is not restricted to Judaism. The link above gives a rather nice overview of the situation there, I do encouage any interested parties to have a look-see when they have a free moment.”

…but the word anti-semite doesn’t describe all semitic peoples, just Jews, and at the time it was created just Ashkenazi Jews. No further analysis needed.

”Secondly, whereas people like myself are trying to use language to lesson the number of people incorrectly placed under the title of Anti-Semite,”

By purposely using a choice of anti-semitic words then defending a blatantly pro-Hitler website?

“Babar here feels it apparent to slap people under any painful title he can possible think of, when it is blatantly obvious that the title does not actually fit. Calling me Anti-Semite is like calling Jesus an Anti-Semite because he gathered a following of people who called themseves Christians and who later went about kicking the Jewish, blaming them for the death of Jesus. Jesus starting an Anti-Jewish group? Heavens above, he must be an Anti-Semite!

Let's see a show of hands here - who thinks Jesus is an Anti-Semite?”

No, Jesus was Jewish. Catholicism also was not created immediately after his death, strangely enough.

”However, I digress. We have evolved. I am now likened to a Neo-Nazi.”

Your opinions are, yes.

”How that is possible is beyond me. I do not believe the Jewish race to be inferior to myself. I do not believe the Arabic race to be inferior to myself. I do not believe my race to be superior to ANY other race.”

Neither did the Stalinists, or so they claimed, yet they did not differentiate between Soviet Jewry and Israeli Zionists. Just as you don’t differentiate between world Jewry and Zionists despite the fact more Jews live outside of Israel than vice versa.

“I'm not even a patriot of my own nation, I merely carry it's title as it was where I was born and thus is printed upon my Birth Certificate. That said, my only allegiance is with the Human race. Hell, sometimes not even with that, when I stop to analyse just how destructive we can become towards each other.

That said, I have failed all the main points that make one an Anti-Semite, AND a Neo-Nazi.”

I don’t know if you’re really an anti-semite, but the impression I get from your posts is that you are and that’s all I have to go on.

”I am Anti-Zionist because I do not believe in one nation or belief system pushing it's obvious might over another.”

You must be anti-USSR then, even in the USSR’s early days.

“Much as I am Anti-Imperialist and Anti-Americanist (description: I am not against the Americans themselves, I am however against Americanism, especially Global Americanism) for the same reasons. It's one thing when two nations squabble, and are relatively equal in strength (such as is the case with a lot of wars), we just separate them and tell them both to go home like two squabbling schoolboys, but when it is clearly so one-sided as is the case with the present situations with Israel and Palestine, or America and Iraq, (or America with anyone, for that matter), then we have a situation on our hands and I will take the underdog because they cannot fight for themselves well enough to survive the battle. The casualties, the "collateral damage" as it was so poetically phrased, becomes far too high and collateral damage is RARELY ever acceptible.”

The Palestinians needn’t be the underdog – if the Palestinians stopped their terrorism they could be a sovereign nation, likewise if the Arab nations regarded the Palestinians with the same altruism as Israel there would be no need for a Palestinian state.

”In seeing the Zionists gaining power in practically every influential field imaginable, it is logical to assume this is a form of Global Monopoly, a form of Imperialism with one outlook: To see that the Zionist beliefs are never questioned, and thus prove exceedingly difficult to attack. This would be slightly - slightly - acceptible if it were only about the beliefs, however it is not. As we can see in America today, if one is to dare question the position of the Zionists, they lose their livelihood quicker than they can say the word "Zionist." They lose their jobs, they lose their respectibility, they sometimes lose their very lives. U.S Senator Cynthia McKinney was one of the higher-profile examples of this, though there have literally been thousands of examples over the last year alone. The Zionists are much like the Neo-Nazis in that they have a very set idea of what is, and is not, acceptible. Be damned anyone else.”

Hmm… you don’t differentiate between Jews and Zionists, you consider Jews to have ‘infiltrated’ Western governments and you consider Jews to be part of some global conspiracy. Interesting, now I know why you defended the neo-Nazi site.

As to those who ‘oppose Zionists’ being kicked out of university because of it - http://www.labournet.net/world/0205/ispa10.html seems like it’s quite the opposite to me.

”And, as the original article of this thread shows, anyone who is different, regardless of their level of innocence (or lack thereof), is going to suffer under Zionist rule. Innocent Palestinians looking for employment will be detained. Others will be murdered.”

I’m not about the read your Arab neo-Nazi article.

”I propose the following questions to the people of this forum, though I am not looking for an answer, merely for you to think about it: When a child throws a rock at you, do you murder them? Or do you do your best to side-step the rocks and physically stop the kid, returning them to their home?”

The rocks Palestinians can throw can cause physical damage, not to mention the fact that there’s always the possibility of a sniper lurking to kill IDF soldiers. Personally, I know I’d fire warning shots too, real life isn’t a game of Counter-Strike.

“ How do you address the issue if it is reoccuring? Do you just ignore the root-cause, and hope it goes away? Are you aware that there is a root-cause, or do you believe it's just kids being kids? "Religio-Racism"? At what point does it become acceptible to murder children?”

Israel certainly doesn’t murder children, children die when they’re being used as human shields by terrorists, yes – but there are countless examples of Palestinians purposely targeting Israeli children and again there are countless examples of the deaths of Israeli children because of Palestinian terrorism.

”Using that earlier line-of-thought about the Zionist infiltration of foreign nations, it is common knowledge these days to everyone bar the Western corporate media”

Not the British media, certainly.

“that the Mossad created and controls Hammas, and quite possibly Islamic Jihad.”

The Mossad did not create Hamas, Israel did fund Hamas briefly when it was just a humanitarian welfare group in order to destabilise the (still violent but more so then) PLO.

“That said, that little theory of "religio-racism" kind of starts inkling out of credibility when one considers that whenever Ariel Sharon wants something to go a certain way (say, to convince the world that the Palestinians are evil, and therefore we must support Israel in anything that it does), something DOES happen, right at the exact precise time.”

Actually, the opposite is the case. Bush tells Sharon exactly what to do, and he does it – and as the sole contributor of aid to Israel – the Israelis are very grateful to the Americans so whatever Bush says holds great sway in Israel.

“A bus blows up. Or a cafe blows up. Anything to involve suicide bombers, or the like. And the world's opinion sways while it tries to work out where it's "loyalties" lie. How very, very convenient. Next time something like this happens, I suggest people listen to who owns up to it. They might just surprise themselves.”

I think most people already know that it tends to be Palestinian terrorists murdering Israeli children.

“And perhaps, if we're very, very lucky, he'll show his opposition to the Left Wing one more time for us - the last display was such a lovely thing to see outside of the Soc-v-Cap forum. Haven't seen one quite that blatant for a while now. I'm not convinced that such a comment deserves a Banning, but I'm pretty certain it should lead to him being catapulted into the other forum and forced to remain there and there alone, amidst Che-Lives.”

How does being pro-Israel make me anti-leftist? On the contrary, I’m a Socialist and I am an advocate of democratically run planned economies, I don’t support the idea of the Dictatorship of the Proletariat, though.

”It appears the Zionists have infiltrated Che-Lives.com after all. Took long enough - I had almost given up on them ever appearing! Welcome, Babar! Take a bow!”

No, I’m just sick of reading the (intentionally so or otherwise) anti-semitic posts on this forum.

[Angie]

*pat, pat* It's okay, darling. Really, it is. Life's like that: Sometimes it's just so hard to acknowledge when you're beaten. Don't worry, though, we'll leave you alone now.

*muffled sniggering* :biggrin:

[Comrade Babar]

I'll assume from the above post that Angie can't think of any counter-arguments.

[Angie]

Remember this?


I honourably step down from the role, and allow the hounds to be released.It's called ending the conversation, and it occured four posts back.

Angie has the maturity and intelligence to stop the conversation when it's clear that the other party isn't going to learn anything new than the illogical propaganda-based rhetoric that they're forever spouting.

The mere fact that the other party feels they must keep up the "debate" despite being told that the conversation isn't even happening anymore does nothing more than show just how childish they really are.

Apparently, some people never learn. Now be a good little boy and go home, you're just making yourself look stupid. 'Night-night!

(Edited by Angie at 1:28 pm on Oct. 23, 2002)

[jon doe]

G'day

two points -

niether the jews nor the palestinians are the problem. NATIONALISM and the RACISM that nationalism is based on is the problem.

second point on the use of anti-semetic. as lewis carrol said 'words mean what i want them to mean, nothing more nothing less'

thanks
-r.

[Comrade Babar]

Angie the fact you're stopping the 'conversation' because of your own ignorance is fine with me, but don't lie about it.

[Angie]

Seriously Babar, I'm at a loss at who you could possibly be trying to impress with this infantile behaviour. Don't you know when to give up, or are you just a bulldog that just keeps biting and biting until your victim is dead?

[Comrade Babar]

Address my points or be considered incapable of answering them. Put up or shut up.

[Angie]

I'm sorry, what kind of response was that, pray tell? Was that a threat, was it?

I have addressed so many of your so-called "points" that we have ran around in many circles, and by the laws of logic, when someone refuses to learn, it's often best to just stop attempting to teach them, and just move onto the next person, leaving the other person to their beliefs. Thus, I chose to step away and allow you to live with your views.

Exactly when does the conversation stop, in your opinion? Does it stop when we have argued over and over the same information time and time again, never coming to a conclusion we agree upon? I don't think so. So where does it stop? When I am in complete agreement with you? How about there? When I am a converted Zionist? Now that sounds pretty fabulous, hey!

But no. Let me just clarify this: If I don't answer your post in just the way you want, you'll insult me by calling me "incapable", ja? And, let's see - if I do answer your post, you'll insult me again by calling me Anti-Semite, or Neo-Nazi, correct?

Terribly, terribly mature of you, I must say. Bravo. How old are you, Babar? 15? 16? It seems to me that you have yet to learn what it means to "call it a day". Do stop being so childish.

[Comrade Babar]

Let's think... why would anyone want to end a discussion while it was still continuing? Perhaps because they don't really know what they're talking about, hmm? ...and yes, perhaps I will reply to your next post calling you an anti-semite if you start another with such a stupid and genuinely anti-semitic title.

Why are you insulting someone for being immature - or indeed... young? I'd say that the vast, vast majority of posters on this forum are under 16 and yet you, being someone in their twenties (or older?) still post here, isn't it far too immature for you?

[Angie]

LOL! Regarding my age, I assure you, there are a surprisingly decent number of people here around my own age, and even a number of people here who have surpassed my age by up to a couple of decades. That said, I think it's pretty fair to say that immaturity doesn't come down to the general community nor it's location. I'm sorry you weren't able to see that.

Dear sweet Babar, the political conversation has indeed ended, many posts ago. It ended on the basis of the illogical act of continuing such a conversation when no general consensus was to be agreed upon at any time now or later. All that's left is flying insults, such as we see here. Now, if you choose to call that a conversation, by all means, that's your choice.

Myself, I find it to be getting more and more tedious by the post. That doesn't make me "incapable", m'dear. What it makes me is one who is intelligent enough to see when the political conversation is going nowhere fast. Anyone with an inkling of intelligence would know that enough is enough.

There's simply nothing left to talk about as far as that original conversation is concerned. Fear-tactics don't work on me, I'm afraid. Being called such titles as you have used merely makes me laugh, it doesn't make me feel ashamed or anything else, as I merely have nothing to be ashamed of. I am unconnected to such titles in such a blatantly obvious way. My deepest sympathies go out to you for refusing to understand that.

Logic states that the conversation is indeed dead as literally nothing is going to evolve from it but more and more hatred towards either party, such as we are seeing here. Are you incapable of understanding that? I sincerely hope not.

[Comrade Babar]

This is the case because you chose to steer the debate in that way and that's it.... and that's all.