North Korea

[maoist_revolution]

What does everyone think about North Korea? do you recognise them as a Communist state?

and are they treating their people badly?

[viva le revolution]

North Korea does not qualify as a communist state. It's leadership is a neo-dynasty. It is more stalinist.
As comes the question whether they are treating their people badly, i am not sure. the media portrays the leadership as satanic, but the sanctions and military buildup along the DMZ has more to do with the peoles misery.

[maoist_revolution]

I agree there are alot of santions on North Korea aswell. I saw a documentery on North Korea and was disgusted wit their Gullags though

[Bolshevist]

I fully support DPRK in their anti-imperialist and socialist struggle. I also support Korean reunification.

[maoist_revolution]

What do you think of their GULLAGS though tell me that, dont just make statements.

[Bolshevist]

Are you refering to the statements made by a North Korean person who claims he was gassed, or tested with chemical weaponry inside? If so, read this: http://english.people.com.cn/200403/31/eng...31_138993.shtml (http://english.people.com.cn/200403/31/eng20040331_138993.shtml)

Most of the system around the incarceration of individuals centers around rehabilitating them. The death penalty is even outlawed. Obviously you must take what you hear from the imperialist media with a grain of salt.

[maoist_revolution]

no woman being raped in the prisons it really made me sick I saw it on a documentary it wasent biased it just disturbed me

[maoist_revolution]

Woman being raped is disgusting

[Bolshevist]

Well, there exists no 'prisons' in North Korea, they focus on rehabilitation through labour, they have self suficient camps, and the goal for them is not to punish but transform people from law breakers into law abiding citizens. Surely a rape can happen anywhere, a single rape does not mean the entire socialist system is bad because Bush says so and put DPRK on the "Axis of Evil" list.

[maoist_revolution]

dont you think Kim Jong Il is a bit to obsessed with his looks to be a true communist

[viva le revolution]

A woman being raped is indeed disgusting, but a country being raped is beyond imagination! Therefore i do not beleive anythiong in the media regarding the third world. they are always slanted to serve the imperialist policies.
During the chinese revolution, the media of that time labelled him as a madman.
Let's see everything in perspective, economic sanctions and forced military spending due to the buildup of american and south korean military along the DMZ is taking a to;; on the country and people. First they are destroying the country then accusing the leadership as being responsible for it, that's a pot calling the kettle black.

[viva le revolution]

They called Mao a madman.

[maoist_revolution]

That doesnt matter he wasent vain

[Bolshevist]

The imperialists have denounced every great communist, perhaps in a more subtle ways in different times. Here is something Lenin has to say about this:


What is now happening to Marx's teaching has, in the course of history, happened repeatedly to the teachings of revolutionary thinkers and leaders of oppressed classes struggling for emancipation. During the lifetime of great revolutionaries, the oppressing classes constantly hounded them, received their teachings with the most savage malice, the most furious hatred and the most unscrupulous campaigns of lies and slander. After their death, attempts are made to convert them into harmless icons, to canonize them, so to say, and to surround their names with a certain halo for the "consolation" of the oppressed classes and with the object of duping the latter, while at the same time emasculating the essence of the revolutionary teaching, blunting its revolutionary edge and vulgarizing it. At the present time, the bourgeoisie and the opportunists within the working-class movement concur in this "doctoring" of Marxism. They omit, obliterate and distort the revolutionary side of this teaching, its revolutionary soul. They push to the foreground and extol what is or seems acceptable to the bourgeoisie. All the social-chauvinists are now "Marxists" (don't laugh!). And more and more frequently, German bourgeois scholars, but yesterday specialists in the annihilation of Marxism, are speaking of the "national-German" Marx, who, they aver, educated the workers' unions which are so splendidly organized for the purpose of conducting a predatory war!

[maoist_revolution]

What do you think of this thing Fidel Castro said then in 1953 in his history will abslove me speech

He who speaks to you hates vanity with all his being, nor are his temperament or frame of mind inclined towards courtroom poses or sensationalism of any kind. If I have had to assume my own defense before this Court it is for two reasons. First: because I have been denied legal aid almost entirely, and second: only one who has been so deeply wounded, who has seen his country so forsaken and its justice trampled so, can speak at a moment like this with words that spring from the blood of his heart and the truth of his very gut.

[viva le revolution]

Don't get me wrong, Kim jong il is an impish dwarf who seeks to sensationalize himself to come out from under his father's shadow. That's his personality. However when it comes to he state of north korea's economy i beleive that the blame lies more with the first-world more than the regime.

[maoist_revolution]

thats true he just annoys the shit out of me

[Omri Evron]

North Korea is an oppressive dictatorship. Just because the economy isn't capitalist it does not mean that the country is socialist. For a country to be socialist the people must be able to rule the economy and government. There is no freedom or baisic rights to the people of North Korea, and there is no equallity because the corrupt beurocratic rulers have special privilages and live above the rest of the people.
"the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea" is not democratic, does not belong to the people and is not a rebuplic. Actually, it does not include all of Korea, so a more accurate name would be "The Of" ( :P ). But anyway, it defenetly isn't socialist or communist- it's a horrible stalinist dictatorship.

[Enragé]

DKPR sucks, its a totalitarian regime, you are not allowed to think.

*we love the great leader, we will defend the great leader we will obey the great leader*

[Revolutionary_Anarchism]

I heard the DPRK is going to change it's name to KimIlSungia.

[Enragé]

lol

[Bolshevist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2005, 12:32 PM
DKPR sucks, its a totalitarian regime, you are not allowed to think.

*we love the great leader, we will defend the great leader we will obey the great leader*
Nobody can tell you what to think, and not to think. To say otherwise is utter rubbish.

And DPRK has no plans on a name change.

[Enragé]

i have seen a documentary (with footage of INSIDE the DKPR) and even when i totally disregarded the comments of the journalist and just watched the raw footage, you could see the total criminal indoctrination of the North Koreans. Their children's bedtime stories are stories about the great leader for fuck sake.

[Bolshevist]

Who made that documentary? For what purpose what it made for?

I don't see your point with the bed time stories, are you saying that because the Korean people are fond, and admire Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong-Il they are brainwashed? I have heard bed time stories of people who fought in the guerrilla movement in Norway against the Germans, am I a brainwashed person then?

[maoist_revolution]

No its the very fact he is turned into a god like figure.

[Enragé]

Who made that documentary? For what purpose what it made for?


I was a documentary to commemorate the holocaust in europe. The children in the school dutch journalists visited were reading the diary of Anne Frank (a dutch jewish girl). The DKPRs government apparently found this a good opportunity to show the western world how great their nation was. The journalists were only allowed in the school and some other sites. They were also allowed to make videos of the children learning shit in class and could even interview a couple.

Alright let me give you an impression of the educational process:

8 year old children sit in class, all dressed in uniforms, the teacher asks "What can you tell us about our great leader?" a student replies "Our great heavenly leader freed us from the imperialists" (like he said it a thousand times already) the teacher says "Very good"

the interviews:

journalist "what do you think of the book? (diary of anne frank)", the student hesitates, clearly looking at her teacher, the teacher walks up to her and whispers something in her ear, the student replies "i am very grateful to our great leader for giving me the chance to read this book explaining how the fascist imperialist invaders murdered innocent children, i can only hope our heavenly leader will prevent this from happening to me"

[maoist_revolution]

"heavenly" hahaahhahahahahaha ok

[Red Heretic]

We have to support the masses of all nations in the sturggle against imperialism, but we also have to acknowledge that the DPRK isn't a socialist country. It is a revisionist dictatorship.

[maoist_revolution]

I agree I hate the fact one person is running a country its very Hitler like

Fidel is ok but Kim Il Jong isent.

[refuse_resist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2005, 10:09 PM
We have to support the masses of all nations in the sturggle against imperialism, but we also have to acknowledge that the DPRK isn't a socialist country. It is a revisionist dictatorship.
A revisionist dictatorship? :lol:

You mean dictatorship of the proletariat.

[kurt]

Originally posted by refuse_resist+Jun 27 2005, 11:59 PM--> (refuse_resist @ Jun 27 2005, 11:59 PM)
[email protected] 27 2005, 10:09 PM
We have to support the masses of all nations in the sturggle against imperialism, but we also have to acknowledge that the DPRK isn't a socialist country. It is a revisionist dictatorship.
A revisionist dictatorship? :lol:

You mean dictatorship of the proletariat. [/b]
Do you even know what dictatorship of the proletariat is? Or was that sarcastic.

[refuse_resist]

I believe everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and like I said, I believe the DPRK is an example of the dictatorship of the proletariat. You can agree or disagree with me, which personally, I could care less. I once thought the DPRK was a "revisionist dictatorship" too, but later changed my position on them.

All I hear from other leftists about the DPRK is that they're evil Stalinists who like to starve their own people, which are the same exact things the bourgeois says about them.


I agree I hate the fact one person is running a country its very Hitler like
See what I mean?^^

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2005, 10:13 PM
I agree I hate the fact one person is running a country its very Hitler like

Fidel is ok but Kim Il Jong isent.
Mao was a god-like figure in China. As much as Kim Jong Il is in the DPRK. Fidel is not so much a god-like figure however, your name is maoist_revolution - do you uphold Mao?

[kurt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2005, 12:12 AM



I believe everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and like I said, I believe the DPRK is an example of the dictatorship of the proletariat. You can agree or disagree with me, which personally, I could care less. I once thought the DPRK was a "revisionist dictatorship" too, but later changed my position on them.
DPRK is controlled by a dictatorship indeed. This, however, is a dictatorship of the party bureacracy. I believe it's very similar to Trotsky's analysis of the USSR, which he described as a 'degenerated workers state'.


All I hear from other leftists about the DPRK is that they're evil Stalinists who like to starve their own people, which are the same exact things the bourgeois says about them.
I hardly think they starve their own people. However, you can bet the great leader was meeting his daily caloric requirements, while many north koreans weren't. The famine is a result of poor crop harvests, and imperialism. DPRK is stalinist, and of course we shouldn't listen to much the bourgeois media has to say about it, but we can definately see that it isn't a dictatorship of the proletariat.

Unless of course you considered the USSR to be one.

[Fidelbrand]

The Bad boy of the Communist Movement:

Link. (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=23788&hl=dprk&st=0)

[American_Trotskyist]

The first thing to understand is that North Korea doesn’t even consider itself Marxist, the pseudo type Stalinism, anymore.

In 1955 the North Korean’s changed the ideology from Stalinism to Juche. Juche is a homegrown idea that describes the system of government like that of the body, thus the need for a Great Leader, the brain if you will. The people are to be like the central nervous system, acting through their wise and intelligent leader. In fact I think Kim’s father Kim Il Sung repalaced Stalinism for Juche in the constitution in the late seventies.

I fully support the North Korean nuclear program and I am for the reunification. North Korea is still under the super-Stalinist regime but it is still probably far less lethal and murderous than the United States or any other ‘free’ and ‘democratic’ state.

I support a workers’ democratic revolution to overthrow the Stalinist dynasty over all, but there is no way in hell I would support the most irresponsible dictator off them all, Bush.

[maoist_revolution]

I'm a maoist but I don't think one person should run a country. I think a group of 10 people should run a Maoist Country so people do not become corrupt.

Am I dreaming or wouldent that work?

[maoist_revolution]

would it work?

[American_Trotskyist]

No sweety.

Under socialism, from the basic political to economic theory it is all about democracy.

You are talking about an a dictatorship of ten.

There must be Centrism but democractic centrism.

[Sons_of_Eureka]

I support the DPRK,

I think the leadership needs to be a little less extravagnt and more down to earth with the people like Mao was.

As for the living conditions,i think they are quite adaquet and i'm sure the citizens of north korea are not over-worked or staved as the western media seems to portray the as.

Personaly i think north koreas society is far more demorcratic and less repressed than its shit-hole southern neigbour were unionist are sued for protesting.

[Guerrilla22]

As for the living conditions,i think they are quite adaquet and i'm sure the citizens of north korea are not over-worked or staved as the western media seems to portray the as.


The fact is no one really knows what the conditions are like because the DPRK is such an isolated country. I wouldn't be suprised if there is in fact a food shortage, partly because the country has been under economic sanctions for so many years.

[Sons_of_Eureka]

That ixabert guy and some others seem to be well informed about DPRK.

[Guerrilla22]

Based on who's information?

[Enragé]

There must be Centrism but democractic centrism

centrism is also part of the problem. Power must be had locally, thus ensuring the people have a say, rather than being one of 6 billion. Ofcourse their should be something which would make the larger decisions, a surpreme (elected) council.

Local things decided locally
Regional things decided regionally
etc etc etc

[comradestephen]

Interesting thread. There seems to be a clear divide between socialist positions on this question and various Trotskyite or quasi-Trotskyite ones.

Where are the gulags etc.? The bourgeois press has even gone so far as to say that North Koreans are eating each other because there is a famine. Yet people who have gone there, such as the Lawyers Guild which sent a delegation a year or two ago have come back with news that they saw no homelessness, starvation or repression and that most North Koreans supported the socialist state.

People attack Cuba in this same way, yet having been there myself I can say it is not true.

Is DPRK perfect? Maybe not. Can a perfect socialist state be expected considering the conditions socialism has been forced by imperialism to develop in? How comrades can turn their backs on one of the few remaining workers states in the world and take the side of imperialism on this issue is beyond me.

In short, I too support DPRK, Korean Unification and our Korean Comrades in the Workers Party of Korea.

[Colombia]

I trust Amnesty Internation when they say N.Korea suffers from repression and food shortages.

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2005, 01:33 AM
I'm a maoist but I don't think one person should run a country. I think a group of 10 people should run a Maoist Country so people do not become corrupt.

Am I dreaming or wouldent that work?
In the U.S. Britain etc. there is an inner-circle of politicians who make many of the most important decisions of the country and steer the country politically. However, if ten people made all the decisions with very little participation from everyone else, although it may work, the group of ten may make a lot of wrong decisions. The knowledge of one hundred is better than ten etc. of course a large proportion of most populations are not really equipped to make important political decisions.

[Omri Evron]

Allright then, if so many people here are not willing to listen to the critisizing of North Korea (I still like "The Of") because it comes from capitalist sources then I'll tell you what a Communist that actually went there told me: He described how everbody completaly worshiped the great leaders (even though one of them is dead). One of the people presented him with a melon and said to him: "These melons were created thanks to the power of our great heavenly leader" and "the heavenly leaders make our crops grow"!
:blink:

Seems pretty obvious that the country is a dictatorship, and a freaking one too.

[Enragé]

"the Party rejects and vilifies every principle for which the Socialist movement originally stood, and it does this in the name of socialism"

-George Orwell

[Fidelbrand]

DPRK's collective performance, it's breath-taking but i think the gov't should deal with the shortage of food first:

(Video)

http://www.hiroiro.com/movie/2004_12_31_kita.wmv

[Camarada]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2005, 12:12 AM
I believe everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and like I said, I believe the DPRK is an example of the dictatorship of the proletariat. You can agree or disagree with me, which personally, I could care less. I once thought the DPRK was a "revisionist dictatorship" too, but later changed my position on them.

All I hear from other leftists about the DPRK is that they're evil Stalinists who like to starve their own people, which are the same exact things the bourgeois says about them.


I agree I hate the fact one person is running a country its very Hitler like
See what I mean?^^
what fucking bullshit

Kim Jong il is NO proletariat if that's what you're saying.

hey stalinist bastard, dictatorship of the proletariat does NOT mean an actual fucking dictatorship!

[Camarada]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2005, 10:01 AM
I support the DPRK,

I think the leadership needs to be a little less extravagnt and more down to earth with the people like Mao was.

As for the living conditions,i think they are quite adaquet and i'm sure the citizens of north korea are not over-worked or staved as the western media seems to portray the as.

Personaly i think north koreas society is far more demorcratic and less repressed than its shit-hole southern neigbour were unionist are sued for protesting.
how can a socialist/communist support the DPRK? That's fucking unbelievable. Socialism/Communism is about democracy.

Living conditions are adequate? BULLSHIT. The people are starving.

far more democratic? When was Kim Jong Il elected?

[bolshevik butcher]

DPRK is a tyrtanical state. Headed by an insane dictator. I think they should just give him a hollywood studio and start running the country.

[KC]

I saw a documentary on North Korea. It might've been biased but if you look at the facts themselves you can tell without a doubt that what's going on in North Korea is disgusting. Huge cities are built where nobody lives because nobody can afford living there; there is insane amounts of surveillance in the cities, even though they are mostly deserted. Most of the population lives in rural areas; there are rumors of cannibalism.

From The Tears Of My Soul (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0688128335/ref=pd_sxp_f/102-2089705-4996958?v=glance&s=books) by Hyun Hee Kim, it is possible to understand what North Korea is like. Most North Koreans don't know much, if anything, about the outside world. They worship their leader as a god and have parades and festivals dedicated to him. Their text is based around the "Kim Jong-Il religion." Everybody that wants to learn more about North Korea should read this book. It's very informative and entertaining as well.