U.S. propaganda - liberal rebels

[elche08]

It seems to me that when I look back at all the schooling I've had (only just completed 9 grades plus pre school and kindergarten) I've always been told that capitalism was the king of societies and that communism was the worst form of bad that a government could get. And I agree to an extent that the regimes of Lenin, Mao, Stalin, etc. where not good, but they didn't even bother to tell us what communism was all about. An accident? I think not. So my point is, when I started researching socialism and then communism, I felt like a criminal because I had been told that the communist was the worst enemy of the U.S. I was smart enough to decide that capitalism was not working for me as an economical system and ultimately the way our government is controlled. So why should I feel guilty for trying to better my society. After all isn't revolt agaisnt an oppresive, corrupted government written into the U.S. constitution? Did anyone else feel this way when they started looking into it? I think it's U.S. propoganda to scare anyone away from finding better ways to live than the greedy lives of the capitalist.

[Clarksist]

Absolutely it is propaganda. They don't want any original thoughts to be going through students minds. Then I created this formula:

Compulsory education = government indoctrination.

I first got into anarchy because of its high profile image, and the draw of the rebel side. But slowly I got into communism and have been a better person ever since.

[elche08]

origional thoughts is all we need, too many people blindly follow anything their government says without
(1 researching the facts

and (2 questioning their governments intents based on those facts



i like the formula by the way, its the formula for creating the perfect capitalist monster :D

[*Hippie*]

Yes, it is the worst form of propaganda.
I always knew I was a liberal or "on the left" but I soon began to realize my views were even farther left than the capitalist "left" parties like the dems.

I became a much more aware and better person because of it. I began to look at goods and products and wonder where they came from and wonder how much those people were paid. I began to analyze everyday discussions and comments among people and was shocked at how "selfish" most of the statements were.

I think the government is very aware how studying socialism and communism changes the way we view the world and how it opens our eyes to their corruption and that is what really scares them.

[d-e-f-i-a-n-c-e]

education is based more on memory rather than reasoning....heck...this is hardly even education.....real education is when you actually use your mind to think of something original.....we need schools of philosophy like from back in the days of ancient greece....and besides....damn right it is capitalist propaganda....i mean...USA goes on about womens rights etc...how come USA hasnt yet had a female president?...or a black president?.....that's plain hypocrisy....and besides.....how come it's always countries that are not beneficial to the united states evil?...i mean....its like....you're either the friends of america...or you're evil and trying to destroy the world by making 'weapons of mass destruction' like forks and spoons.

[Bannockburn]

This is really simple to answer, but it won’t be answered in schools. If you read Foucault, or Chomsky they generally assume the same process that certain institutions perform. Institutions like schools take on the same form as the military. They are hierarchical, there purpose is to discipline. They both regiment the body and the mind. Schools purpose is to perform to make students obedient to authority figures, suppress independent thought, control behavior through rewards and punishment, and indoctrinate the student through censored and edited history. Create and internalized certain values such as ultra competition between students through a grading system. Schools, like the military are hierarchical. The further you go up in grades, the less teachers and other authority figures accept disruption, and independent thought. Schools are designed to educate on a massive scale. They teach, and educate certain topics, but suppress other topics. Any independent thought generally results in failing grades. Thus, grades are a control mechanism in order for you to perform through the school system.

Moreover, saluting flags, and saying the pledge is a process where you are suppose to internalize patriotic fervor; a sense of nationalism. Through your indoctrination process saluting the flag is suppose to create within you a national identity everyone can identify with and later governments can use to reeve up the propaganda nationalism in case of a false or real national emergency. Take for example the patriotism during 9/11 and the extreme nationalism, and then using that nationalism to terrorize and kill millions of Afghans and Iraqi’s through an illegal war.

Anybody who disrupts or refuse to salute the flag, you are a “behavior problem” and you get punished. The idea of punishment is that the punishment is supposed to out weigh the offense; in this case, saluting the flag. Thus, this is why it’s a big deal. You’re not suppose to escape the indoctrination, and are suppose to be a “model citizen”. A model citizen is nothing more then being a passive individual who accepts all government decisions and action regardless of ethical, or legal consequences. to promote government agenda and policy, and reject all who don't - your own citizen - or other states, the UN, the world.

Schools play a massive role to indoctrinate today’s young children for tomorrow’s slaves. Of course our education is selective and censored, especially history. Like when I look outside why I do see everyone with white faces instead of red? Well that is easy because the European colonialist enacted a policy of genocide. The aboriginals of North America suffered much more than Hitler could have ever produced. Yet, this isn’t told. We are told how Columbus was a great man, and how great the American Revolution was, and how manifest destiny was apart of American exceptionalism – and how unique America is – its all crap. They tell you how bad Stalin is, and how bad Communism is – and of course when your 14 you don’t know what Communism or capitalism is – all you get is Communism = bad, Capitalism = good, and you get tested on it, and you better get a passing grade because you’ll get punished if you don’t. Its really a sick system.

Defiance is pretty much right. Education is indoctrination and real education is oppressed. Critical thinking skills is not acknowledged or encouraged. Obedience is awarded.

Also, yes it directly states in the Declaration of Independence that Americans have the right to abolish government is they fail to achieve the ends of its citizenry – this is why we have the second amendment. Moreover, when somebody does act on this right, we call him “terrorist Tim McVeigh” and kill him for it. – You know during and before the American Revolution the patriots were the English rebels.

[d-e-f-i-a-n-c-e]

dude..you dint type all that did you...like yourself?...cause i doubt it

[Bannockburn]

No, I got it from another thread titled something like “saluting flags, what is the big deal” I copied and pasted it. It was like my first post and nobody responded to it – so I thought I copy it here. Is it all original works? Well it’s influenced by Foucault and Chomsky – something I acknowledged, but the words, sentences and thoughts are mine, so yeah.

[d-e-f-i-a-n-c-e]

you know...your article is pretty interesting....nice work.

[Bannockburn]

Thanks man. Like I said it’s not like this is private. If you read the book: Discipline and Punish by Michael Foucault and the Chomsky reader and understanding power, you’ll get the same ideas.

See this is where I agree with you. This should be the point of school. Read great books of human thought, get ideas, find out where they made mistakes, develop your own ideas – this is what we call progress. However, school is the opposite – read crappy books where people will develop a taste of not liking to read – don’t get ideas, just puke up what the authority says to you – if you do that then you’ll become “successful” with commodities of no importance.

[d-e-f-i-a-n-c-e]

exactly! you have perfectly described the educational system!....take a look at this website www.futurebydesign.org...not really related to anything but i thought you might want to read about the 'resource based economy'

[elche08]

that was a pretty damn good article. althoguh i think tim mckveigh could have selected a different course of action <_< . thanks for reponding by the way guys im glad im not alone in my thoughts :) and feelings on capitalism&#39;s (and the u.s.&#39;s ) fallacies.

[Bannockburn]

Yeah Tim McVeigh could have taken another approach. His direct action didn’t fully ripe. You have to have large popular support to attack the government. It was no more barbaric than anything the US has ever done.

[elche08]

i can agree with that but i think that he couldhave found a less innocent target

[Clarksist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2005, 06:48 PM
Yeah Tim McVeigh could have taken another approach. His direct action didn’t fully ripe. You have to have large popular support to attack the government. It was no more barbaric than anything the US has ever done.
The lesser of two evils isn&#39;t suddenly philanthropy.

Tim McVeigh attacked innocent people who had no way of defending themselves. Knowing full and well that he was also harming children.

Fuck McVeigh. That is selfish news grabbing terrorism. Nothing noble about it.

[Bannockburn]

i can agree with that but i think that he couldhave found a less innocent target

Certainly. He could have attacked the pentagon or something. I’m not saying McVeigh is innocent, far from it. However what is a day care doing at a federal building? I don’t care what the excuse is. If you’re a federal building you are a legit target as a branch of the government. The fact you have a day care there is completely irresponsible regardless of the reasons. To tell you the truth, I almost think they wanted that day care there in case something like this ever happened. Let the American people become distracted of killing children and ignore the reasons why – both individually in McVeigh’s case, and collectively of like minded units both domestically or internationally. It’s the same thing with 9/11 we can either cast off blame, and attack, or look at the reasons why this happened, and how we can change it.


The lesser of two evils isn&#39;t suddenly philanthropy.

Well actually it is, just this scale doesn’t appear so because of its targets, and scale. For example, the lesser of two evils as an ethical doctrine that is widely accepted among the medical community; a clear case is the option of letting a baby live at the expense of the mother, or inducing a spontaneous abortion. Either way, one dies, what do you choose? - generally the lesser of two evils.

Even the Bush doctrine of pre-ventive war commits to it. It’s a lesser evil to attack Iraq than to wait and have a nuclear attack.


Tim McVeigh attacked innocent people who had no way of defending themselves. Knowing full and well that he was also harming children.

Well that is no off hand from the military who trained him. Granted they were innocent, but in McVeigh’s eyes, they were federal employees who as a result, a legit target. We have to remember McVeigh’s language. It was a “strategic target”. It was open, un-protected, etc.

Moreover, it can certainly be argued that even though McVeigh surveillance the federal building, that he never knew there was a day care. I don’t believe that, however McVeigh, Nichols and Michael J foreir (?spelling) all declared they didn’t know of the day care. However, I don’t buy into it.


Fuck McVeigh. That is selfish news grabbing terrorism. Nothing noble about it.

Well according to the declaration he had a Right to do what he did. Moreover, he also thought that this could support a revolution and topple the government. The recent news that McVeigh was tied to White surpremist groups, or Islamist terrorist is all garbage. There is no evidence what so ever, and the FBI knows it, the CIA knows it – only it has been recently reported in the news. Its complete fabrication based on conspiracy theories and circumstantial evidence.

Also, it depends what you mean nobility. The catalysts were WACO and Ruby Ridge. Both events that McVeigh saw as government heavy handedness that mirrored his Desert Storm experience. It’s the same heavy handedness the British used in Boston and the Massachusetts colony exploited as a massacre. I mean honestly by today’s definition the Boston tea part was a terrorist action – yet its hailed as a great triumph of American patriotism

[elche08]

I agree waith clarkisim I think, because it appears there was no tactical reasoning for the attack. If a revolution was what he had intended, why wasn&#39;t it followed up? And the thing about the kids makes me want to puke every time I hear it. also terrorism is only a word that is used by the protagonist (i.e. the attacked party) So depending on how you look at it he was either a terrorist or a martyr. I&#39;m under the impression that he was a terrorist.

[*Hippie*]

It is sad innocent people died. BUt I really don&#39;t think the life of a child has anymore value than that of an adult. That is ageist, it is like saying one decreases in value as they age.