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Urban Rubble
21st June 2005, 03:01
Ever since George W. changed his reasoning for invading Iraq from "U.S. security" to calling it an effort to bring Democracy to the country I've given a lot of thought to the question of what form an independent Iraqi state would take. If the people of Iraq were legitimately given the chance to decide their own fates, elect their leaders and enact their own policies, what would these policies be? The more I consider it the more it seems clear that a truly sovreign and independent Iraq would be a nightmare from the perspective of the U.S. ruling class.

It is my opinion that the U.S. has no interest in a Democratic Iraq, it wants nothing more than a subservient client state that it can control from Washington (Nicaragua comes to mind). We have seen a lot of bragging about the success of the recent elections, but the fact is that the U.S. did everything it could to prevent them, it had to be dragged into accepting the vote. Why? Because they know the situation in Iraq, they know that if they give the Iraqi people the chance to vote that U.S. interests will take a beating. We see this in the fact that the U.S.'s catidate (Iyad Illawi) was crushed in the election despite having full state resources. We also saw that nearly every party that ran was pressured to include in it's platform a call for U.S. troops to withdraw. So it is clear that the average Iraqi citizen (not suicide bombers and Jordanian terrorists) wants the U.S. out, and from there it isn't hard to guess that the U.S. is going to try and oppose this prevailing attitiude. Thus Democracy in Iraq is the last thing U.S. leaders want.

So what actions would this state take?

First, it seems likely that an independent Iraq would attempt to re-claim it's historic position as leader of the Arab world. Iraq's history (or, the area we currently know as Iraq) of being the leading state in the region is nothing new, it's been the most educated and advanced area since Biblical times. This all sounds fine from the perspective of U.S. interests, until we consider what being the leading power in the region would entail: rearming. If Iraq wishes to recover it's former prestige it must rebuild it's military and rearm the country. Another aspect of this would be to confront the other leading power in the region, Israel. Not only would they need to bridge the missle gap in order to do this, but it seems likely they would seek to develop WMD as a deterent against Israeli pressure.

Those seem like fairly likely developments of a democractic Iraq, can anyone see the U.S. permitting Iraq to rearm and confront Israel?

Secondly, it's fairly obvious that a democratically elected Iraqi government will be Shiite dominated. With Iran being largely Shiite it seems likely that Iraq would seek to improve relations with them. Not necessarily out of a love for the Ayatollah, but it makes sense that they would rather be on friendly terms than hostile terms with their large, powerful Shiite neighbors.

So now they're armed and friendly with Iran. Again, does anyone see the U.S. allowing this kind of Democracy to take place?

Thirdly, a Democratic Iraq would serve as an influence across the border in Saudi Arabia. As I said at the top, the last thing the U.S. wants is Democracy in the region. Thus if Iraq begins deciding it's own fate, and that fate includes opposition to U.S. domination of the region, it makes sense that the Saudis may want the same thing. And if the Saudis begin opposing U.S. policy you know that the boys in Washington are scared shitless.

The fourth issue is quite a lot of speculation, but if it happened it would be of more importance than the other 3 combined. We have to pay attention to the issue of an autonomous Shiite alliance in the area. Most of Saudi Arabia's oil lies near the border of Iraq, an area that is mostly populated by Shiite Muslims. The same goes for Iran. What would happen if a Shiite dominated Iraq, with all it's oil, linked up with the Shiite areas of Saudi Arabia and the Shiite dominated state of Iran? Well, a majority of the world's oil would be under the lands of a powerful, autonomous Shiite alliance that would most likely be hostile to U.S. interests.

With all these possibilities fairly likely, does it make sense to anyone here that the U.S. wants to see the Iraqi people making their own choices, their own policies? Of course not. And that is why we see the U.S. doing everything in it's power to halt the Democratization of Iraq (kicking the independent media out, attempting to write their own constitution).

So what do the right wingers think? Do you see these as strong possibilities? If not, why? If so, do you really believe the U.S. is going to try and being Democracy to Iraq?

ahhh_money_is_comfort
21st June 2005, 03:08
Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 21 2005, 03:01 AM
Ever since George W. changed his reasoning for invading Iraq from "U.S. security" to calling it an effort to bring Democracy to the country I've given a lot of thought to the question of what form an independent Iraqi state would take. If the people of Iraq were legitimately given the chance to decide their own fates, elect their leaders and enact their own policies, what would these policies be? The more I consider it the more it seems clear that a truly sovreign and independent Iraq would be a nightmare from the perspective of the U.S. ruling class.

Before we discuss the form this state would take, I feel I should mention that this is pure speculation. It is my opinion that the U.S. has no interest in a Democratic Iraq, it wants nothing more than a subservient client state that it can control from Washington (Nicaragua comes to mind). We have seen a lot of bragging about the success of the recent elections, but the fact is that the U.S. did everything it could to prevent them, it had to be dragged into accepting the vote. Why? Because they are know the situation in Iraq, they know that if they give the Iraqi people the chance to vote that U.S. interests will take a beating. We see this in the fact that the U.S.'s catidate (Iyad Illawi) was crushed in the election despite having full state resources. We also saw that nearly every party that ran was pressured to include in it's platform a call for U.S. troops to withdraw. So it is clear that the average Iraqi citizen (not suicide bombers and Jordanian terrorists) wants the U.S. out, and from there it isn't hard to guess that the U.S. is going to try and oppose this prevailing attitiude. Thus Democracy in Iraq is the last thing U.S. leaders want.

So what actions would this state take?

First, it seems likely that an independent Iraq would attempt to re-claim it's historic position as leader of the Arab world. Iraq's history (or, the area we currently know as Iraq) of being the leading state in the region is nothing new, it's been the most educated and advanced area since Biblical times. This all sounds fine from the perspective of U.S. interests, until we consider what being the leading power in the region would entail: rearming. If Iraq wishes to recover it's former prestige it must rebuild it's military and rearm the country. Another aspect of this would be to confront the other leading power in the region, Israel. Not only would they need to bridge the missle gap in order to do this, but it seems likely they would seek to develop WMD as a deterent against Israeli pressure.

Those seem like fairly likely developments of a democractic Iraq, can anyone see the U.S. permitting Iraq to rearm and confront Israel?

Secondly, it's fairly obvious that a democratically elected Iraqi government will be Shiite dominated. With Iran being largely Shiite it seems likely that Iraq would seek to improve relations with them. Not necessarily out of a love for the Ayatollah, but it makes sense that they would rather be on friendly terms than hostile terms.

So now they're armed and friendly with Iran. Again, does anyone see the U.S. allowing this kind of Democracy to take place?

Thirdly, a Democratic Iraq would serve as an influence across the border in Saudi Arabia. As I said at the top, the last thing the U.S. wants is Democracy in the region. Thus if Iraq begins deciding it's own fate, and that fate includes opposition to U.S. domination of the region, it makes sense that the Saudis may want the same thing. And if the Saudis begin opposing U.S. policy you know that the boys in Washington are scared shitless.

The fourth issue is quite a lot of speculation, but if it happened it would be of more importance than the other 3 combined. We have to pay attention to the issue of an autonomous Shiite alliance in the area. Most of Saudi Arabia's oil lies near the border of Iraq, an area that is mostly populated by Shiite Muslims. The same goes for Iran. What would happen if a Shiite dominated Iraq, with all it's oil, linked up with the Shiite areas of Saudi Arabia and the Shiite dominated state of Iran? Well, a majority of the world's oil would be under the lands of a powerful, autonomous Shiite alliance that would most likely be hostile to U.S. interests.

With all these possibilities fairly likely, does it make sense to anyone here that the U.S. wants to see the Iraqi people making their own choices, their own policies? Of course not. And that is why we see the U.S. doing everything in it's power to halt the Democratization of Iraq (kicking the independent media out, attempting to write their own constitution).

So what do the right wingers think? Do you see these as strong possibilities? If not, why? If so, do you really believe the U.S. is going to try and being Democracy to Iraq?
This is an interesting point of view, your view of US being forced into giving up elections is not exactly what I see. What I see is this was the plan from the beggining. That elections were planned from the start of this war. Is that true or false. That before the very first bomb dropped, elections were planned for Iraq. Is that about right? Or was Bush just faking it?

Because on one hand your making Bush sound really cunning. Then on another hand he is a nincompop. Which one is he? He can not be both at the same time.

Cunning because he planned this massive and complex series of politcal moves for his self interest. Or. A nincompop because he is managing everything like an idiot.

Which one is he?

Urban Rubble
21st June 2005, 03:24
Because on one hand your making Bush sound really cunning. Then on another hand he is a nincompop. Which one is he? He can not be both at the same time.

Cunning because he planned this massive and complex series of politcal moves for his self interest. Or. A nincompop because he is managing everything like an idiot.

Which one is he?

Haha. Well, I think the people really running things are very intelligent. I don't believe for a second that Ole' George is the one making these moves. George Bush serves the same function as Ronald Mcdonald, he's a mascot. A smiling face and a good personality to put on TV while Dick Cheney plans to bomb your village somewhere off camera.

But seriously, I really don't think Bush is very smart. I mean, I don't think he's a total fucking moron (just a bad public speaker, which makes him look dumb sometimes), but I don't believe he posseses the kind of intelligence needed for his position. And that's actually not a shot at Bush at all, I think he's just a regular guy.

Exploited Class
21st June 2005, 06:22
Well I will tell you this much, Israel will become really unnecessary if Iraq does become a democracy with our bases present. They were the gleaming beacon of the only democracy in the Middle East and that was the reason behind the US sending so much military aid to them. They are quickly becoming superfulous at this point. I could see them not wanting to see an open and free democratic Iraqi society, especially since Iraq was never a credible threat to Israel.

I don't think it behooves the US to have a stable and democratic Iraqi society. They might have said that we would be greeted with flowers but that was a salesman talking to sell the war. How did they know it would be a quagmire because we knew it would be a quagmire of resistance from all over.


That before the very first bomb dropped, elections were planned for Iraq. Is that about right?

No plans for elections weren't planned, there is nothing to suggest that there was planning for elections. There might have been lip service saying, "We will have elections" but there wasn't any plans. What was planned before the first bombs dropped?

Contracts and Contracts and Staking out of ground by corporations. Companies were lining up for government rebuilding contracts and mercenary contracts. Wireless phone companies were staking out plans for their business, and before any election planning was happening the most important thing did happen, any country that wasn't with us, their companies were locked out of opening businesses in Iraq.

They want chaos. Do you have any idea how much of the military duties are now outsourced to Haliburton type companies? Transporting fuel, cooking meals..etc..etc. The daily bill for Iraq is in the billions and that is a dollar amount that nobody would want to walk away from.

9 Billion dollars is unaccountable, their excuse was literally, "It is too chaotic to keep track of all the money." They lost 9 billion dollars and nobody can trace where it went because it is all too chaotic there.


But seriously, I really don't think Bush is very smart. I mean, I don't think he's a total fucking moron (just a bad public speaker, which makes him look dumb sometimes), but I don't believe he posseses the kind of intelligence needed for his position. And that's actually not a shot at Bush at all, I think he's just a regular guy.

And he didn't plan any of this, it was already planned long ago in http://www.newamericancentury.org/ The Project for the New American Century. Good old Neocons.

ahhh_money_is_comfort
22nd June 2005, 03:38
Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 21 2005, 03:24 AM

Because on one hand your making Bush sound really cunning. Then on another hand he is a nincompop. Which one is he? He can not be both at the same time.

Cunning because he planned this massive and complex series of politcal moves for his self interest. Or. A nincompop because he is managing everything like an idiot.

Which one is he?

Haha. Well, I think the people really running things are very intelligent. I don't believe for a second that Ole' George is the one making these moves. George Bush serves the same function as Ronald Mcdonald, he's a mascot. A smiling face and a good personality to put on TV while Dick Cheney plans to bomb your village somewhere off camera.

But seriously, I really don't think Bush is very smart. I mean, I don't think he's a total fucking moron (just a bad public speaker, which makes him look dumb sometimes), but I don't believe he posseses the kind of intelligence needed for his position. And that's actually not a shot at Bush at all, I think he's just a regular guy.
Oh, then wouldn't you say Bush is just a regular guy like a protelariat? Is then the ost protelariat president, since he is just a regular guy? Nothing bougouise or intellectual, just a regular guy.

Urban Rubble
22nd June 2005, 04:03
Oh, then wouldn't you say Bush is just a regular guy like a protelariat? Is then the ost protelariat president, since he is just a regular guy? Nothing bougouise or intellectual, just a regular guy.

You really are fucking stupid.

Stop trolling the thread. By "regular guy" meant of average intelligence, not a genius, not a dunce, a regular guy. Of course, he did call Greeks "Greecians".....

You are NOT a regular guy.

Severian
22nd June 2005, 08:27
Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 20 2005, 08:01 PM
the fact is that the U.S. did everything it could to prevent them, it had to be dragged into accepting the vote.
....
We see this in the fact that the U.S.'s catidate (Iyad Illawi) was crushed in the election despite having full state resources. We also saw that nearly every party that ran was pressured to include in it's platform a call for U.S. troops to withdraw.
....
First, it seems likely that an independent Iraq would attempt to re-claim it's historic position as leader of the Arab world
....
If Iraq wishes to recover it's former prestige it must rebuild it's military and rearm the country.
....
With Iran being largely Shiite it seems likely that Iraq would seek to improve relations with them.
All of those are true points. Some of the implications have already begun to develop, like relations with Iran. And clearly the U.S. wants to keep Iraq a protectorate, dependent on U.S. military guarantees for its defense. (Not necessarily a large deployment all the time, but its neighbors' knowledge that the U.S. will intervene as needed.)

But "the last thing the U.S. wants is Democracy in the region" is somewhat off I think...it's reasonable based on the history of past U.S. interventions. But there's been something of a shift....the U.S. will still be opposed to democracy when elections turn out the wrong way, or working people take and use too much political space of course. But it is encouraging its client regimes to lighten up, and encouraging more of the forms, anyway, of bourgeois democracy.

Which doesn't always imply that a government does what a majority of its citizens want, after all.

One reason for this shift may be, that all these U.S. puppet dictatorships are the perfect breeding grounds for al-Qaeda style terrorists...political repression is correlated with terrorism more than any other factor.

TC
22nd June 2005, 21:43
Well, were there free direct presidential elections Saddam Hussien would probably have a very good chance of winning. Apparently in sept of 2004 a gallup poll showed 42% of Iraqis supporting Saddam's return to power with no other political leader coming having substantial support so he would almost certaintly get a plurality of the votes if not a majority. I think since that was closer to the time of his capture and before the new "government" demonstrated itself to be a total failure and the United States commited some of its particularly ghastly atrocities in Fallujah and and elsewhere, his support would probably be even higher today.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2004Sep30.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A63231-2004Sep30.html)

synthesis
24th June 2005, 19:05
Originally posted by ahhh_money_is_comfort+Jun 21 2005, 07:38 PM--> (ahhh_money_is_comfort @ Jun 21 2005, 07:38 PM)
Urban [email protected] 21 2005, 03:24 AM

Because on one hand your making Bush sound really cunning. Then on another hand he is a nincompop. Which one is he? He can not be both at the same time.

Cunning because he planned this massive and complex series of politcal moves for his self interest. Or. A nincompop because he is managing everything like an idiot.

Which one is he?

Haha. Well, I think the people really running things are very intelligent. I don't believe for a second that Ole' George is the one making these moves. George Bush serves the same function as Ronald Mcdonald, he's a mascot. A smiling face and a good personality to put on TV while Dick Cheney plans to bomb your village somewhere off camera.

But seriously, I really don't think Bush is very smart. I mean, I don't think he's a total fucking moron (just a bad public speaker, which makes him look dumb sometimes), but I don't believe he posseses the kind of intelligence needed for his position. And that's actually not a shot at Bush at all, I think he's just a regular guy.
Oh, then wouldn't you say Bush is just a regular guy like a protelariat? Is then the ost protelariat president, since he is just a regular guy? Nothing bougouise or intellectual, just a regular guy. [/b]
Yeah, but Bush doesn't really have an excuse, seeing as how he supposedly graduated from Yale, which is very intellectual and very bourgeois.

Severian
24th June 2005, 21:20
Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2005, 02:43 PM
Well, were there free direct presidential elections Saddam Hussien would probably have a very good chance of winning.
Delusional.

Opinion poll results asking about range of potential presidential candidates, including Hussein. (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5217741/site/newsweek/) Less than 10% chose him. Jaafari, who is now prime minister, was chosen by the most respondents.

TC
26th June 2005, 03:44
Originally posted by Severian+Jun 24 2005, 08:20 PM--> (Severian @ Jun 24 2005, 08:20 PM)
[email protected] 22 2005, 02:43 PM
Well, were there free direct presidential elections Saddam Hussien would probably have a very good chance of winning.
Delusional.

Opinion poll results asking about range of potential presidential candidates, including Hussein. (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5217741/site/newsweek/) Less than 10% chose him. Jaafari, who is now prime minister, was chosen by the most respondents. [/b]
The poll cited in the washington post was conducted by Gallup which is a very respectable polling agency. The poll you cited was conducted by Independent Institute for Administration and Civil Society Studie (IIACSS) which is an american military funded collaborator organization working under contract of the "coalition." The Newsweek article you cited said "Refusals were the highest seen to date, a trend noted by other pollsters." Its reasonable to think that when speaking with a known American agent, an Iraqi would be more willing to admit to supporting Jaafari then Saddam, so we can also assume that in such a poll Saddam supporters would be disproportionately represented among the refusers and Jaafari supporters would be disproportionately represented among the people who chose to answer. The Americans have been dying to get human intellgence in Iraq and they've shown themselves wililng to use any method to spy on people whether using doctors and psychologists to determine physical and psychological weakness to be exploited in guantanamo bay or "weapons inspectors" to identify targets for bombing before the invasion. Its not unreasonable for an Iraqi to fear that the wrong answer to that 'poll' could put them at risk, thats why so many of them refused to answer it.

Even among the people who were willing to participate in the poll, nearly 60% of them didn't answer the "who would you vote for president" question. The results of it don't even make much sense when compared to the prior set of questions on support of various political figures, that showed both Al Sadr and Al Sistani as more popular with fewer detractors then Jaafari whereas the "who would you vote for" question favored Jaafari.

another thing that effects the reliability of that poll is that they didn't poll Al Anbar province (which was entirely Resistance controlled at the time, this was May 14-22nd 04, after the US retreat from Fallujah...the gallup poll cited in the Washington Post was more recent, fall of 04) where the coalition support was weakest.


So i think its more delusional to use the US military's polling rather then Gallup's. And even if the poll *is* representative which for the reasons listed above i don't think it is, it still only gives jaafari 16% support among the people who agreed to be interviewed.

Severian
26th June 2005, 04:18
Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2005, 08:44 PM

The poll cited in the washington post was conducted by Gallup which is a very respectable polling agency.
The article didn't cite a poll, it quoted Saddam's lawyer. If you believe him...would you be interesting buying some land in Florida? Or possibly a bridge in New York City?

Here's a Gallup poll of Iraqis for ya...they're not asking about putting Saddam back in the presidency, but putting him on trial. (http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-04-29-key-findings2.htm) 80%+ say try him and "probably guilty", 60%+ say execute him.

The great majority of Iraqis hate Saddam. It is delusional to deny this.

redstar2000
26th June 2005, 13:37
Talk of polls in occupied Iraq always reminds me of the cartoon I saw once.

A barbarian is standing in the doorway of a peasant's hut. The barbarian is asking the peasant, "Do you think Attila the Hun is doing (1)a great job; (2) a good job; or (3) a fair job?"

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

OleMarxco
26th June 2005, 16:46
No fourth alternative there, no ;)
That cartoon which was reminded to you by the polls in IraQ reminds me, again, in turn, of a thing that used to be around...called for the Soviet Union :P Sorry for to be one reminding you that, I'm just such a nasty boy party-crashin'. Heheheheh. Anyways, back to subject.

All democracies are "democracies" since there has to be a power that emands these laws and power that gets things into drift since it has been given an "order" from the people. Somewhere in the chain, there is a despot. In IraQ, it's obvious -- The occupying U.S. Army. Of course, they could be nice about it, and let the elections "go as they will" (yeah, RIGHT!) but in the end, the only true force in IraQ...is military force! :D

Severian
26th June 2005, 18:35
But in fact the poll result in both cases was: Atilla is doing a crappy job.

If the occupation was going to rig a poll, or if people were too intimidated to say what they really thought, you wouldn't get majorities displaying hostility for the occupation and calling for early withdrawal.

Heck, you'd get majorities for Chalabi and Allawi, not Jaafari.

So again, delusion. Groupthink (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink) that rejects any outside point of reference which might serve as a reality check.