Race

[podesta]

You claim to be lefties...

what is your position on race then?

[rebelafrika]

http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php...topic=36641&hl= (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=36641&hl=)

[Pawn Power]

It doesn’t exist.

[Che NJ]

The idea of race is bullshit, each race is just a genetically isolated group of humans.

[LSD]

You claim to be lefties...

what is your position on race then?

hmm... that was a bizarely antagonistic way to ask that question. It really begs the question, what is your "position on race"?

[rebelafrika]

Originally posted by Lysergic Acid [email protected] 20 2005, 04:50 PM

You claim to be lefties...

what is your position on race then?

hmm... that was a bizarely antagonistic way to ask that question. It really begs the question, what is your "position on race"?
LOL!!! Good point.

[danny android]

Race is a imaginary devision line between people. It is much like class in that it devides us but we are all still humans and are all very much alike. I hope that one day both racial and class devision dissappear off the face of the earth and all my children will not even know the name of it.

[Hiero]

Although it may be true that race may be a social constuct. The affects of racism are very clear.

A more depth anaylsis is needed of the idea of race, and race relations.

W.E.B.Dubiuos has some good articles and books on race.

[Vallegrande]

Is one racist if s/he are displeased with the shape of ones nose or mouth? I think race comes with facial characteristics along with color, because you can tell someone is of another race simply by facial dynamics.

I think racial problems exist off and on at moments of time, just as everything is born and dies, race will die as well.

[Clarksist]

Races... kind of exist. Sorta.

Are people members of races? Yes.

Could this make them pre-disposed to certain abilities? Perhaps.

Should we make decisions about people based on race? Absolutely not.

Is equality of races necessary for communism to occur? Yes.

[GreatComrade]

I am not a racist, but scientific data proves me wrong:

Clicky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence)

[LSD]

I am not a racist, but scientific data proves me wrong:

Hardly.

All that shows is that members of certain "racial" groups (the same ones that are marginalized, disenfranchized, culturally oppressed, and poorer) do worse on standardized intelligence tests.

Even that page admits that the signigicance of those results is highly questionable.

But are you saying that you disagree? That you believe that certain racial groups are superior to others?

[Major. Rudiger]

Well his a little useless fact:
During the time of America when they still had slaves... They were breeding Blacks to be stonger and better. They were treating Blacks like cattle... Thats fucking sick.

Anywho...

[Kristatos]

Originally posted by Lysergic Acid [email protected] 24 2005, 01:06 AM

I am not a racist, but scientific data proves me wrong:

Hardly.

All that shows is that members of certain "racial" groups (the same ones that are marginalized, disenfranchized, culturally oppressed, and poorer) do worse on standardized intelligence tests.
Also, a common complaint about intelligence tests is that they demand intellectual abilities as well. This only proves that some "races" do not have access to the same "brain food" as others.

[Raisa]

And this is exactly true, my greek brotha.
Very good way to say it.

TO me it doesnt matter if race exists or not cause we suffer from racism anyway.

[guerillablack]

Does that make since? If race doesn't exist, can we still suffer from racism?

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

If race exists can we still suffer from racism? Yes!
Now, suppose I distributed purple and blue t-shirts at random through a room. Though the t-shirts are different colours, there is no real difference between either group arising from shirt colour.
Now, can I create false divisions along blue-purple lines? Have you ever played paintball?

[The Grey Blur]

I am not a racist, I came last in the 100 metres :P :D :lol:

[crappitydoodah]

Race..does it exist...I think this is not the question at hand....we just want to know if decisions both internally and externaly should be made based off of the difference in ones appereance...
one must here make the difference between culture and race....for many places these go hand and hand, for america they do not...america is a diverse place, were others are not....we have learned here that a man or woman of any race is capable to do the same thing just as well as another (depending on variable stats) and it is good...yet in a country were everyone is vietnamese, the white man who is american and speaks not the language is stuck pretty much to teaching english, or wandering the streets with out verbal communication and feeling awkard and out of place....
the question for a deciscion is not on race, but simply on ability....yes, I might choose a white man over a black man, or a man over a woman....yet if I was to make the choice simply off of the skin color or sex I would be missing out as would the other...
yet when race is mixed in with culture and culture is not compatible with another culture for mixing for a desired purpose then one might think twice...

here is the real question....as much as I'm for racial interaction and an open minded individual...you are talking about laws, about slavery....one must impose laws and a form of enforcement in order to force a man or woman to be open minded....it's a funny thing....to impose slavery to rid the world of it...

where does the line come for forming anothers responibilty...anothers choice, for if we had the freedom to come to our conclusion, were is there freedom to come to theres....even if we despise it??

[Sir Aunty Christ]

I posted this earlier this month in reply to a guy who was then banned for being a Nazi. I've edited the orginal post to get my point across:

Essentially, at our core, we are all the same. There may be biological and, indeed, within communities, cultural differences but the same things affect all of us. Global Warming will harm Chinese people as much as it will harm White people. Poverty hits all races as a result of the Capitalist system (which, no doubt, you'll try and defend at some stage). I think I'm right in saying that the poorest Whites in the United States are better off than the poorest of any other race (in fact this may be true, elsewhere in the world) and the reason I believe for this is the same reason that I believe poor Protestants in Northern Ireland are better off than poor Catholics. It's a matter of domination, those who dominate the longest become the wealthiest.

The White race (I still feel uncomfortable using that word all the time) is actually a composite - or maybe simply the product of evolution after the migrations from Eastern Africa. In fact, the native inhabitants of that region are probably the most racially pure people in the world. And even then, maybe 100% due to colonialism.

Racists talk about racial purity but that hasn't existed for 150 thousand years. Take a look at this weblink: Discovery Channel (http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/realeve/interactive/migration.html)

[Hiero]

Now, suppose I distributed purple and blue t-shirts at random through a room. Though the t-shirts are different colours, there is no real difference between either group arising from shirt colour.

I hate thoose type of examples, they are so stupid. Race isn't something as simple as colour.

While many people say such things as White Race, Black race, Asian race etc, its a really naive and basic way of classing race. It also builds on the assumption that everyone in a certian colour group will get along and understand each other.

The reality is i have more in common with an Aboriginal person then i do with an Anglo American. Mainly because we would share similarities in Australian culture.

In Australian Universitys many American students are leaving due to discrimination. While the media claims it is harresement on the Australians side over the politics of America, i belief it is a culture clash. Americans and Australians are culturaly different, and part of this culture is the regard of politics.

While both countries seem apathetic in politics, most Americans show more patriotism and are more sensitive in politics and in general. For instance burning a flag in the US may anger alot of people and be looked upon as treachery, while in Australia it is look upon as foolishness. Many young Australians are more open about criticism and have less respect towards politicians.

Where the culture clash comes in is Anglo Australians being more open to white people, so they don't hold back what they are thinking, they assume a common culture exist. While with darker coloured overseas students i have notice people are a bit more culture concsious and weary not to offend.

This is falling into the trap of basing race on colour and assuming that people of the same colour have more in common with thoose of different colour.

[Led Zeppelin]

There are only 3 races acknowledged by science.

"To classify humans on the basis of physiological traits is difficult, for the coexistence of races through conquests, invasions, migrations, and mass deportations has produced a heterogeneous world population. Nevertheless, by limiting the criteria to such traits as skin pigmentation, color and form of hair, shape of head, stature, and form of nose, most anthropologists agree on the existence of three relatively distinct groups: the Caucasoid, the Mongoloid, and the Negroid.

The Caucasoid, found in Europe, N Africa, and the Middle East to N India, is characterized as pale reddish white to olive brown in skin color, of medium to tall stature, with a long or broad head form. The hair is light blond to dark brown in color, of a fine texture, and straight or wavy. The color of the eyes is light blue to dark brown and the nose bridge is usually high.

The Mongoloid race, including most peoples of E Asia and the indigenous peoples of the Americas, has been described as saffron to yellow or reddish brown in skin color, of medium stature, with a broad head form. The hair is dark, straight, and coarse; body hair is sparse. The eyes are black to dark brown. The epicanthic fold, imparting an almond shape to the eye, is common, and the nose bridge is usually low or medium.

The Negroid race is characterized by brown to brown-black skin, usually a long head form, varying stature, and thick, everted lips. The hair is dark and coarse, usually kinky. The eyes are dark, the nose bridge low, and the nostrils broad. To the Negroid race belong the peoples of Africa south of the Sahara, the Pygmy groups of Indonesia, and the inhabitants of New Guinea and Melanesia.

Each of these broad groups can be divided into subgroups. General agreement is lacking as to the classification of such people as the aborigines of Australia, the Dravidian people of S India, the Polynesians, and the Ainu of N Japan."

http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/section/r...ssification.asp (http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/section/race_AttemptsatClassification.asp)

One could say that capitalism has eliminated races as well.

[RedAnarchist]

Why is it important to classify people into these races?

Most white Europeans have a few genes from the Middle East, and one in five Brits have some black ancestors.

In Roman times, there were Sarmatians in the Roman Army who settled near where i live. Sarmatians are from Central Asia!

There has, thankfully, been too much migration and mixing. This means that virtually noone, bar those live in very isolated or very close-knit areas, is of pure racial stock.

[Led Zeppelin]

Why is it important to classify people into these races?

Because it is a scientific reality.

[Hiero]

There has, thankfully, been too much migration and mixing.

Yet racism still exist. It is a stupid fantasy belief to think that inter race mixing will remove racism.

[RedAnarchist]

I diidnt say that it would get rid of rascism.

[mod_plod]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2005, 12:24 AM
we just want to know if decisions both internally and externaly should be made based off of the difference in ones appereance...
Simple answer to this ( and the main question of this thread) is.... No!

Race exists only in the minds of thoses to whom it matters.

If you feel like you are not part of the human race.. who are you?

I know and see only one race.

If we continue to run separate race's none of us will make it to the finnish line.

[werewolf]

Race does exist (ask forensics) and statistically at least there are some diseases that seem to latch onto specific races. Each race seems to have at least one or two diseases that seem to attack them specifically. Some people are genetically more immune to certain diseases than others. This just has a lot to do with the overall enviroment of their ancestors. The race part is just a coincidence. Every race is just as inferior as the other...in plain words- EQUAL.

Now on a political/economic/social context does Race exist? No. There is absolutely no decision of that kind that can be made based upon race.

[che's long lost daughter]

Why make such a big deal about races? There is a huge difference between race classification and racism. Race is use to classify people, to differentiate one from the other. To tell them apart. Saying one is asian and the other white, does not mean saying that one is superior over the other. No matter how much people will say that race shouldn't exist, it should. But what should not exist is racism.

[Raisa]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2005, 12:47 AM

If you feel like you are not part of the human race.. who are you?

I know and see only one race.


Well, then youre wrong. Because there are obviously races. And there is nothing wrong with it.

We are all mixing though. One day we will all be mixed and be a super species.

Is it true that mixed blood is superior to non mixed blood?
Like its more immune or some shit?

Someone told me that once.

[Vallegrande]

Is it true that mixed blood is superior to non mixed blood?
Like its more immune or some shit?

Well, I think anything pure-bred will lose its endurance or potency over time, i.e immunity and such. This holds for plants, but I'm not sure with animals. I think it would.

[Black Dagger]

Genetic diversity is one of the keys to a strong species, is it not? So surely the greater the 'mix' in the human population, the greater the species collective strength? In terms of genetic resistance to disease and so forth, yes?

[Vallegrande]

True. Weren't the Egyptians a mix of white and black blood? That's why I think the images of the pharoes and others were bronze color, even though the blacks were still on the bottom of the caste.

[Hiero]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2005, 05:30 AM
True. Weren't the Egyptians a mix of white and black blood? That's why I think the images of the pharoes and others were bronze color, even though the blacks were still on the bottom of the caste.
I think the people we call Eyptians came from Arabia. They enslaved the Nubian people from around the area.

[werewolf]

Yes, and then the Nubians for some time, took over.

[Vallegrande]

I found something interesting that someone posted here link (http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/002062.html)

about how ancient African influence was and how far it actually reached. This little known fact about Africans settling Asia and even the Americas is very interesting. Recently some scientists found in South America footprints that dated back about 40k years ago. This only confirms my understanding that civilization is more ancient then what is currently known.

And absolutely not were these people "apes", as they have been mistakenly described as. I can't believe this hasn't been widely recognized. Perhaps the people who make these history books are themselves racist.

[Anarchist Freedom]

There is no races to me. Just people.

[werewolf]

about how ancient African influence was and how far it actually reached. This little known fact about Africans settling Asia and even the Americas is very interesting. Recently some scientists found in South America footprints that dated back about 40k years ago. This only confirms my understanding that civilization is more ancient then what is currently known.

In I think Venezuela (might be wrong), they have actually found rock art and bones that are older than the accepted dates for Native Americans, that have a lot in common with Australian Aborigines.

[4514]

the australian aborigines are one of the oldest surviving races/ culture of today, sadly their a dying race.



Race does exist and it should, im very proud to be a Kiwi.
Racism (sucks)exists because people love it, we love having a reason to hate one another and racism is an easy option to do this. this is why the world is in such a state today and i don't think that will ever change.
im always dogging australians, even though im usually joking around, i guess you could classify it as a form of racism, espseacilly if an aussie took my kiwi humor to heart, it hasn't happened before but it could?
4514
rank and file
fucking aussies!

[Black Dagger]

the australian aborigines are one of the oldest surviving races/ culture of today, sadly their a dying race.

No, they're not. The Indigenous population is growing.


i guess you could classify it as a form of racism,

No. 'Kiwis' and 'Australians' are not 'races'- they're nationalities.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

4514 what does race mean?

[Mujer Libre]

Lots of people seem to think that genetic differences between particular groups (groups that have been isolated by geographic or social factors and thus breeding amongst themselves) constitutes "race." But where can you draw the line? Humans have constantly migrated, the genetic differences between "races" therefore forms a continuum- meaning that scientifically distinct entities called races can't really exist.

That said, for sociological purposes, race obviously does exist. The way I see it, we need to use scientific knowledge to change the social understanding of race and combat racism.

[4514]

No, they're not. The Indigenous population is growing.

as member of your australian community and as a community aid worker, from my time here all i see growing in this country is apathy, and the neglect of the indigenous people, you need to face the truth we're not getting enough support from the goverment or the community as a whole, people are dying and the culture is dying. there to much drugs and "grog" (thats aussie for alcz) and not enough love for the roots and history of the indigenuos people.
but i guess im biased, cuz im from Aotearoa, im maori and there no way the maori people would let the goverment get away with half the shit thats gets dumped on the indigenous people here,
bro its sounds like i might have offended you, if i have im sorry , wasnt my intention, just my opinion.


i guess you could classify it as a form of racism,



No. 'Kiwis' and 'Australians' are not 'races'- they're nationalities.
from the dictionary bro-
A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the German race.

or the kiwi race?

my opinion, kiwi isnt my nationality, im irish anglo-maori.
the "white race" i wouldn't class myself in it or my father or any other people from home, we're kiwis thats our race, our nationality's vary's maori, samoan,scottish, whatever. we kiwi's are our own breed.

so if not racism when im out and i see an aussie i give them shit like "you fucken stupid aussie **** your all bunch of pussies"
what is it? aren't i stating im better than you cause im a kiwi? arent i degrading you cuz of who you are? (with ya pink skin and whinny fucken accent-jokes bro)
note_ i only ever say things like that to aussies who are good friends and give it back as much as i give it.


4514 what does race mean?
depends who your asking, we each have our own opinion,
but for me theres the human race as whole, inside that there are many races each to your own, and inside those races is cultures.

But what they taught me in school was completely different and is probaly what your refering to-
1-A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics.
2-A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the German race.
3-A genealogical line; a lineage.
4-Humans considered as a group

don't swallow all that they feed you, try thinking for yourself.
4514
rank and file

[Vallegrande]

I think it's more about ethnicism than racism. Ethnicism contains both race and culture.

[Vanguard1917]

WORKER BLACK, WORKER WHITE, WORKERS OF THE WORLD, UNITE!

[Pawn Power]

Ethnicism contains both race and culture.

race does not exist.

[Vallegrande]

What about the meaning of race, as the word still exists.
Yes, as peope of different descendants are blending these days, then race in that sense doesnt exist there.

[Pawn Power]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2005, 11:04 PM
What about the meaning of race, as the word still exists.
Yes, as peope of different descendants are blending these days, then race in that sense doesnt exist there.
'Race' as a word does exist, obviously because we are using it. However 'race' does not exist as a human group. And it is not because
peope of different descendants are blending these days, it is because there is only one species of human, homo sapien sapien.

[Vallegrande]

I can see it as one species, though aren't there different appearances to one species, like height or color?

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Originally posted by Revolution is the Solution+Jul 15 2005, 06:16 AM--> (Revolution is the Solution @ Jul 15 2005, 06:16 AM)
[email protected] 14 2005, 11:04 PM
What about the meaning of race, as the word still exists.
Yes, as peope of different descendants are blending these days, then race in that sense doesnt exist there.
'Race' as a word does exist, obviously because we are using it. However 'race' does not exist as a human group. And it is not because
peope of different descendants are blending these days, it is because there is only one species of human, homo sapien sapien. [/b]
Indeed!

The characteristic by which pseudo-scientific asshats judge race are totally arbitrary. We could define "race" by any number of characteristics, or divide humanity along any sort of quantifiable line, but . . . it still wouldn't mean shit.

[Pawn Power]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2005, 12:49 PM
I can see it as one species, though aren't there different appearances to one species, like height or color?
Those are physical characteristics, they do not classify a different 'race'. Race does not exsist as a sub-catagory or any other catagory or group. You will find, for instance, that some people of Chinese ethnicity differ genetically with other 'Chinese' more greatly, then say one considered of Irish ethnicity.
That is to say that one considered 'Chinese 'could be more similar genetically with one considered 'Irish', then with another 'Chinese' person.

We are all homo sapien sapiens, no matter how diverse we appear.

[Vallegrande]

That's true. I also heard that the Pygmies of Congo have characteristics similar to the short caucasion person.

I think eveyone has the potential for being the same genetically, but that would cause inbreeding wouldn't it? Anyways, I think we all have the same genetics, just that some are apparent while others aren't.

[Pawn Power]

I think eveyone has the potential for being the same genetically, but that would cause inbreeding wouldn't it? Anyways, I think we all have the same genetics, just that some are apparent while others aren't.

This does not make sense?
I don't think you understand genetics. We do not all have the same genetics, everyone has unique DNA. If we all had the same we would be clones...

[Mujer Libre]

Originally posted by Revolution is the [email protected] 16 2005, 06:13 AM

I think eveyone has the potential for being the same genetically, but that would cause inbreeding wouldn't it? Anyways, I think we all have the same genetics, just that some are apparent while others aren't.

This does not make sense?
I don't think you understand genetics. We do not all have the same genetics, everyone has unique DNA. If we all had the same we would be clones...
To be fair, our genes are mostly the same.

[Vallegrande]

I'm not a geneticist, but I was just wondering how people inherit certain genes. The genes are already there right, just not apparent? And as environment changes, genetic makeup changes doesn't it? So, where we live, our nutrition, our mating habits, will determine what genes the offspring will have?

[Mujer Libre]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2005, 05:59 PM
I'm not a geneticist, but I was just wondering how people inherit certain genes. The genes are already there right, just not apparent? And as environment changes, genetic makeup changes doesn't it? So, where we live, our nutrition, our mating habits, will determine what genes the offspring will have?
Ah, Lamarckian genetics... :P

Our genes don't change over time. We are born with a particular set, although which genes are expressed is influenced by our environment. (We'll take environment here to also include the intra-uterine environment)

Then it is natural selection that determines which genes are passed onto our offspring. So basically, those with genes that are good for survival tend to live long enough to reproduce and thus pass those genes on.

[Black Dagger]

Then it is natural selection that determines which genes are passed onto our offspring. So basically, those with genes that are good for survival tend to live long enough to reproduce and thus pass those genes on.

Hasn't this process been to a degree altered by modern technology? And the 'conquest of nature' by human society?

[Mujer Libre]

Originally posted by Black [email protected] 17 2005, 09:35 AM

Then it is natural selection that determines which genes are passed onto our offspring. So basically, those with genes that are good for survival tend to live long enough to reproduce and thus pass those genes on.

Hasn't this process been to a degree altered by modern technology? And the 'conquest of nature' by human society?
Of course, since natural selection is determined by the interaction between genes and the environment. Nevertheless natural selection still acts. If you have a disease that kills you by the time you're ten, you ain't passing on your genes!