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Sons_of_Eureka
17th June 2005, 13:55
The Last "Dark Ages"

Rich and beautiful Europe experienced a period known as the "Dark Ages" when barbaric methods of torture were used and the inhuman rule that sea-owners had the right to sleep with a female serf before she married her husband was enforced . However similar practices continued to exist in old Tibet for another400 years.

Before 1959, Tibet had long been a society of feudal serfdom under the despotic political- religious rule of lamas and nobles. The masses of serfs in Ti- bet did not even possess fundamental rights. Serf-owners principally local administrative officials nobles and upper- ranking lamas, accounted for less than 5 percent of Tibet's population but they owned all of Tibet's farmlands pastures, forests, mountains and rivers as well as most of the livestock. The serfs making up more than 90 percent of Tibet's population lived no better than the slaves in the plantations in the southern states of America. The serf-owners could
sell or transfer their serfs, present them as gifts, or use them as mortgages payments for debts. They could even ex- change them,molest them or maltreat them. When two serfs got married, the husband and wife still belonged to different owners and their children were fated to be serfs from the moment they were born.

The statutory code of old Tibet stipulated that people were unequal in status by dividing people into three classes and nine ranks. In a peculiar law concerning the value of human life it was written that the lives of people belonging to the highest rank of the upper class such as a prince or leading living Buddha, were calculated to be worth the weight of the dead body in gold whilst the dives of people belonging to the lowest rank of the lower class, such as women, butchers, hunters and craftsmen were worth a straw rope. The judicial system of old Tibet gave monasteries and serf - owners the right to judge lawsuits. The judicial system itself was characterized by its bloodcurdling system of cruel tortures: punishments issued by the courts were extremely savage and cruel and included gouging out the eyes, cutting off the ears, hands or feet; pulling out tendons; throwing the criminal into water or shutting the criminal into a wooden case lined with nails facing inwards. These bloody historical facto were displayed in an Exhibition of Tibetan Social and Historical Relics in the Beijing Cultural Palace of Nationalities. Imagine what people thought when they saw the amputated limbs, the flayed human skins and the ghastly torture implemented.

One letter kept in file which attracted much attention. It read:

''Rab Ge:''
A Buddhist ceremony will be held here. We need meat,hearts and blood from all kind of animals 4 human heads, intestines, pure blood, turbid blood, earth from ruins, the menstrual blood of a widow, the blood of a leper, water from beneath the surface of the earth, earth raised in a whirlwind, brambles growing towards the north, excrement of both dog and man and the boots of a butcher. All these should be sent to Tsechykhang on the 27th.
Tsechykhang , the 19th"

From this letter we can imagine how many serfs would have been killed for that single ceremony. In such barbaric and brutal times. Tibet's economic and social development was out of the question. The economy in Ti- bet had been at a standstill for a long time and was even declining as was the output of grain. Crude wooden ploughs were the basic tools for agricultural production: the primitive method of herding were causing the deterioration of both the pastoralland and the breeds of livestock disease was epidemic and harmful beasts were rampant. The seas were cruelly exploited. They were forced not only into hard labour but also to bear the heavy burdens of corvee and tax. Living in poverty and starvation, they were struggling for existence on the brink of death all year round. In the 1950s, there were more than 4,000 beggars in the city of Lhasa, out of a opulation of only 37,000. The rate was even higher in Shigatse, the second largest city in Tibet. Because Of the high frequency of uncontrolled epidemics, the average life-span of a Tibetan was only 35.5 years.


This is from http://www.tibet-china.org/serie_book/engl...et/rbch2_at.htm (http://www.tibet-china.org/serie_book/english/approaching_tibet/rbch2_at.htm)

Tibet was truely a evil place before it was liberated by Chairman Mao and the people of china.

The Grapes of Wrath
17th June 2005, 16:15
Dude, I hope you read something else besides just that in order to come to this conclusion.

Whether you want to or not, you have to admit that the CPC always paints themselves in a rosy picture and their enemies as the absolute evil. Got Propaganda?

Tibet may not have been the greatest place ever at that time or at any time, but think outside the CPC box.

TGOW

PS. That whole heads and dead people thing, kind of goes against the teachings of Buddhism doesn't it? ... but don't believe me, look it up.

spartafc
17th June 2005, 17:34
Thank heavens for mao, thank heavens for the continued Tibetan occupation.

Organic Revolution
17th June 2005, 17:37
gotta love propaganda

LSD
17th June 2005, 17:47
Pre-occupation Tibet was a brutal oppressive feudal theocracy in which 90% of the population starved while the elites lived in luxury.

Occupation Tibet is a brutal oppressive authoritarian capitalist state in which most of the population lives in abject poverty while a small government elite gets rich and lives in relative luxury.

The PRC introduced many useful reforms, tripled the literacy levels, started public education, introduced capitalism, etc... but that doesn't mean that the current Tibet is a good place to live. It only means that it's marginally better for the average person to live in then under the iron boot of the lamas. But then that ain't hard.

The best thing would be a modern, independent, and FREE Tibet. Not free from China, although that's important, but free internally. Because the Tibet before the occupation was anything but. The worst thing for the people of Tibet would be if the Dalai Lama were to "regain" his power. A genuine people's revolution against both the PRC and the even more oppressive forces of theocracy is the absolute best option at this point.

Andy Bowden
17th June 2005, 18:17
The Dalai Lama actually labelled himself "Half buddhist, half Marxist" - a particularly amazing comment coming not just from a holy man, but from one whos land has been occupied by "marxists".

Severian
17th June 2005, 21:47
Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 06:55 AM
The judicial system itself was characterized by its bloodcurdling system of cruel tortures: punishments issued by the courts were extremely savage and cruel and included gouging out the eyes, cutting off the ears, hands or feet; pulling out tendons; throwing the criminal into water or shutting the criminal into a wooden case lined with nails facing inwards. These bloody historical facto were displayed in an Exhibition of Tibetan Social and Historical Relics in the Beijing Cultural Palace of Nationalities. Imagine what people thought when they saw the amputated limbs, the flayed human skins and the ghastly torture implemented.
It's true that bodily mutilation was a common punishment in Tibet. Uppity serfs could be punished by their masters - the nobles and monasteries. One government official by the name of Lungshar, a mild reformer, was accused of trying to lead a Communist revolution in the 1930s IIRC...his eyes were crushed by tightening a knotted rope around his head. He later died in prison.


One letter kept in file which attracted much attention. It read:

''Rab Ge:''
A Buddhist ceremony will be held here. We need meat,hearts and blood from all kind of animals 4 human heads, intestines, pure blood, turbid blood, earth from ruins, the menstrual blood of a widow, the blood of a leper, water from beneath the surface of the earth, earth raised in a whirlwind, brambles growing towards the north, excrement of both dog and man and the boots of a butcher. All these should be sent to Tsechykhang on the 27th.
Tsechykhang , the 19th"

From this letter we can imagine how many serfs would have been killed for that single ceremony.

Unlikely. When body parts were used in rituals, they were taken from those who had already died from other causes. There's no good evidence that human sacrifice was practiced in recent times in Tibet. Conceivably it could have happened in some very remote areas.

A lot of the bones etc., used in PRC propaganda like this were people who died of natural causes and given "sky burial." The propaganda around this aims at the stomach, not the mind. And it seems kinda chauvinist - those barbaric backward Tibetans.


In such barbaric and brutal times. Tibet's economic and social development was out of the question. The economy in Ti- bet had been at a standstill for a long time and was even declining as was the output of grain. Crude wooden ploughs were the basic tools for agricultural production: the primitive method of herding were causing the deterioration of both the pastoralland and the breeds of livestock disease was epidemic and harmful beasts were rampant. The seas were cruelly exploited. They were forced not only into hard labour but also to bear the heavy burdens of corvee and tax. Living in poverty and starvation, they were struggling for existence on the brink of death all year round. In the 1950s, there were more than 4,000 beggars in the city of Lhasa, out of a opulation of only 37,000. The rate was even higher in Shigatse, the second largest city in Tibet. Because Of the high frequency of uncontrolled epidemics, the average life-span of a Tibetan was only 35.5 years.


Now, see, this is true. It should be enough, they shouldn't have to lie about anything else to make their case better. I guess it's just habit, the PRC apparatchiks can't help lying.

For more info: past Tibet thread (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=32169)

Andy Bowden wrote:

The Dalai Lama actually labelled himself "Half buddhist, half Marxist" - a particularly amazing comment coming not just from a holy man, but from one whos land has been occupied by "marxists".

Not especially. That's just an opportunistic PR statement. That kind of rhetoric was especially common during the period when the CIA cut off the DL's subsidy due to the Mao-Nixon pact, and he had to go hunting for a new sponsor. He was trying to get on Moscow's payroll instead.

danny android
17th June 2005, 23:48
Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 04:34 PM
Thank heavens for mao, thank heavens for the continued Tibetan occupation.
I'm not to into the whole let's forceably occupy and oppress another nation thing. My nation (Amerika) has done it many times and i can't see a lot of benefit for the oppressed.


FREE TIBET!

novemba
18th June 2005, 01:23
Originally posted by danny [email protected] 17 2005, 10:48 PM
FREE TIBET!
agreed. It's am Imperialist occupation no matter what angle you look at it. And no one can say what Tibet would be like unoccupied because this Dalai Lama hasn't had a chance to lead his people.

Sons_of_Eureka
18th June 2005, 10:39
Anyone here read the books 'in secret tibet' and 'Darkness over Tibet' by Theodore Illion?

Anyway its by a german traveler in the 30's who went to Tibet (disquised as a tibetan) and found things similar to the article i posted but with more empasis on the black magic and sacraficial rites (alledgedly) used by the monks

flyby
18th June 2005, 17:36
"When wild geese fly in formation, they can fly over the highest mountains. We poor people can overcome any difficulty if we unite and help each other."
Tsering Lamo,
communist leader of a township's Woman's Association
explaining the socialist road to other ex-serfs


Many people have referred (during online discussions of tibet) to the first article in this well-known series The True Story of Maoist Revolution in Tibet (http://rwor.org/a/firstvol/tibet/tib-in.htm) by Mike Ely.

That first article, When the Dalai Lamas Ruled: Hell on Earth (http://rwor.org/a/firstvol/tibet/tibet1.htm), exposes the life in feudal Tibet (similar to the way the first post in this thread does.)

But I want to point out to people the other parts of this series (less widely read, and less well-understood!) parts.... that deal with questions raised later in this thread.

In particular there is an article on the life in tibet now -- under the state capitalist and revisionist rulers of today's china -- Oppression Returns--After the Coup in China (http://rwor.org/a/firstvol/tibet/tibet4.htm) which makes (as one point) the observation that ALL of china needs a revolution (and that it is not just a matter of making things different in Tibet!)

Also there is an article The Earthly Dreams of the Dalai Lama (http://rwor.org/a/firstvol/tibet/tibet6.htm) that deals with the plans of the Dalai Lama (politically and socially) today -- and how we should understand his various utterances (and rather slippery claims and proposals).

finally, one of my favorites is the piece on the Cultural Revolution in Tibet, Red Guards and People's Communes (http://rwor.org/a/firstvol/tibet/tibet3.htm) because it blows apart all the assumptions that "chinese destroyed the monasteries." In fact, as this article points out and documents, there was a deep anti-monastery movement among the tibetan people and in the cultural revolution, the challenging of feudal remanants was done by revolutionary Red Guards who formed a mass movement among tibetan people. In other words, this assumption that ALL tibetans are uniformly devout slavish worshipers of Dharma is (and should be obviously) not true -- there are classes and class struggle among Tibetans, there are (and were) tibetans who oppose "all that," they were mobilized and organized for revolution (as part of the larger Maoist revolution that shook china and shook the world.)

I loved discovering quotes like this:

Dzomkyid, a 50-year-old emancipated serf of Gyatsa county, 1966:

"We emancipated serfs have today thrown to the very bottom of the Tsangpu River all the old wicked songs, dances and dramas that prettify the serfowners and spread superstition about gods and supernatural beings. Let the rushing waves carry them away, never to come back."

*********************

Whenever someone says "free tibet!" -- they need to be asked

"what exactly do you mean by 'free'? What are the relations women would face in the Tibet you advocate? Do you support theocracy? Wouldyou want to live in a state run by fundamentalist monks -- and if not, why exactly are you so sure that the people of Tibet should?"

Throwing around the word "Free" without discussing the class character of the proposed society and of those "freedoms" -- is meaningless or worse.

Freedom for idle monks to extract grain from starving peasants?
Freedom for monasteries to kidnap young boys and turn them into clerical slaves at age six (and use them for sexual toys for the older monks)?
Freedom for capitalism to loot and rob the resources and labor of the people -- the way that capitalism now does it in alliance with the central Chinese state?

What exactly would be free about this supposedly "free tibet"?

And, aren't the chances of liberation in Tibet posed more sharply as a struggle across that whole region, for revolution, for an end to capitalism and imperialism (whether the oppression takes the nominal form of the phony "commuist" party of China, or the King of Nepal, or the ambitious exiled Dalai Lama of India)?

spartafc
18th June 2005, 18:27
I'm not to into the whole let's forceably occupy and oppress another nation thing. My nation (Amerika) has done it many times and i can't see a lot of benefit for the oppressed.

Indeed me neither - I was being sarcastic.

China doesn't recognise the region as being justifiably called 'Tibet' anywho - I'd have to call it the 'Tibet Autonomous Region' or such like.

danny android
18th June 2005, 18:52
Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2005, 05:27 PM

I'm not to into the whole let's forceably occupy and oppress another nation thing. My nation (Amerika) has done it many times and i can't see a lot of benefit for the oppressed.

Indeed me neither - I was being sarcastic.

China doesn't recognise the region as being justifiably called 'Tibet' anywho - I'd have to call it the 'Tibet Autonomous Region' or such like.
oh ok. I'm sorry. I couldn't catch the sarcasm in writing, that is a little dificult you know.

(once again) FREE TIBET

American_Trotskyist
18th June 2005, 19:07
(necro_oner Posted on Jun 18 2005, 12:23 AM)
FREE TIBET!.

Honesty, what the fuck are some of you people smoking?

Please, defend authoritarian theocracy. Defend a place where women had no rights, children were malnourished, workers lacked any rights and where fat Buddhist monks took their food and wealth. While you’re at it, defend the Islamic Taliban, Catholic Ireland or just defend any other theocracy. The Dali Lama was the master of indentured servants. It was hell on Earth when the Dali Lama ruled. I agree with LSD, China did do a lot of things for the country, but they aren’t the solution.

Down with the Dali CIA Lama!

danny android
18th June 2005, 19:48
Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2005, 06:07 PM
(necro_oner Posted on Jun 18 2005, 12:23 AM)
FREE TIBET!.

Honesty, what the fuck are some of you people smoking?

Please, defend authoritarian theocracy. Defend a place where women had no rights, children were malnourished, workers lacked any rights and where fat Buddhist monks took their food and wealth. While you’re at it, defend the Islamic Taliban, Catholic Ireland or just defend any other theocracy. The Dali Lama was the master of indentured servants. It was hell on Earth when the Dali Lama ruled. I agree with LSD, China did do a lot of things for the country, but they aren’t the solution.

Down with the Dali CIA Lama!
Yes but if you haven't noticed there is a differnet dali lama now. And he seems to me to be a genuinly nice guy. Besides who says that a modern free Tibet would be a theocracy. It could be a socialist democracy for gods sake.

flyby
18th June 2005, 20:02
uh, actually it is the very same Dalai Lama today that ruled over the tibetans at the time of the 1949 revolution, and for the next decade. TYhis is the same Dalai Lama whose brother is a well-known CIA agent and organizer of the contra-style counterrevolutionary armed groups in China duringthe 1950s. And the same Dalai Lama who sold his own exiled people to the Indian Army to build the high mountain roads as slave labor -- in preparation for the 1963 military controntations with revolutionary China.

Same guy. check it out.

danny android
19th June 2005, 01:08
Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2005, 07:02 PM
uh, actually it is the very same Dalai Lama today that ruled over the tibetans at the time of the 1949 revolution, and for the next decade. TYhis is the same Dalai Lama whose brother is a well-known CIA agent and organizer of the contra-style counterrevolutionary armed groups in China duringthe 1950s. And the same Dalai Lama who sold his own exiled people to the Indian Army to build the high mountain roads as slave labor -- in preparation for the 1963 military controntations with revolutionary China.

Same guy. check it out.
huh. I did not know that.

but come on, look at this face.

danny android
19th June 2005, 03:02
I still believe that a democratic system in Tibet would be better than an opressive military occupation..... I don't know I mean that is just me.

CrazyModerate
19th June 2005, 03:18
The current Dalai Lama was born in 1935. He would have been 15 during the chinese "liberation" or "invasion", whatever you think it is. I think most of the persecution was being committed by some kind of advisors or reagants that were ruling while he was still a child.

And while he probably would have had maintained the corrupt fuedal system had china not intervened, I believe the Dalai Lama, in exile has come to be a true advocate of equality, peace, and freedom.

Also, don't act as if Maoism is perfect. *cough* great leap backwards *cough*. *cough* 30 million dead *cough*.

flyby
19th June 2005, 03:45
No one, obviously, claims that any movement (even the greatest liberation movements) are "perfect" -- so don't put words in anyone's mouth.

At the same time, you apparently assume that your verdicts on the great leap and cultural revolution can be assumed without even stating facts. Don't cough -- say what you mean and be prepared to defendit.

flyby
19th June 2005, 03:48
Originally posted by danny [email protected] 19 2005, 02:02 AM
I still believe that a democratic system in Tibet would be better than an opressive military occupation..... I don't know I mean that is just me.
The official state department line.

Severian
19th June 2005, 04:17
Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2005, 08:18 PM
The current Dalai Lama was born in 1935. He would have been 15 during the chinese "liberation" or "invasion", whatever you think it is. I think most of the persecution was being committed by some kind of advisors or reagants that were ruling while he was still a child.
In fact, he took the throne shortly before China intervened. He was on the throne from '50 or '51 to '59. Even with the pressure of the Chinese Revolution, he barely lifted a finger to make a few tiny changes.

But of course regents ruled most of the time in Tibet; that was the whole reason for the reincarnating monarch system; to ensure a weak central government and near total freedom for the nobles and abotts to do as they pleased on their feifdoms.

CrazyModerate
19th June 2005, 04:56
Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2005, 02:45 AM
No one, obviously, claims that any movement (even the greatest liberation movements) are "perfect" -- so don't put words in anyone's mouth.

At the same time, you apparently assume that your verdicts on the great leap and cultural revolution can be assumed without even stating facts. Don't cough -- say what you mean and be prepared to defendit.
Fine. Mao was a brutal Authoritarian monster that was marginally better than the former feudal warlords.

flyby
19th June 2005, 21:34
hardly.

Again you merely repeat the common anti-communist line, insisted on by U.S. society. Do you assume you can just state that, insist on that, here without being challenged?

Have you even studied Mao, his life and work? Do you know about the Chinkangshan and the Yenan way? The liberation of 500 million peasants for centuries of bitter feudalism? Do you know about the end of footbinding and the prohibition of sale of women?

Look into Hinton's book on Fanshen!

Or "Mao's Immortal Contributions" by Bob Avakian

Or start here: Maoist Revolution in China (http://rwor.org/s/china.htm)

I don't blame you for not knowing. You live in America (i assume) and are both bombarded by lies, and cut off from all kinds of truth.

So I don't blame you for not knowing -- But we should blame you if you didn't even bother to question, investigate, seek, study and challenge!

Severian
20th June 2005, 17:19
Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2005, 10:36 AM
That first article, When the Dalai Lamas Ruled: Hell on Earth (http://rwor.org/a/firstvol/tibet/tibet1.htm), exposes the life in feudal Tibet (similar to the way the first post in this thread does.)
It sure is similar! Right down to the false claims about human sacrifice.

And the author, Mike Ely, oughta know better, since he cites Making of Modern Tibet by A. Tom Grunfeld. (Which is probably the best general overview of Tibetan history, and an easy read.) Of all the academic writers about Tibet, Grunfeld is the most sympathetic to the PRC.

On pp. 29-30 he mentions the PRC claims, lists 3 statements by foreign visitors and residents in old-regime Tibet, and concludes:

Evidence of human sacrifice in Tibet is circumstantial, at best. I would venture to say that in the more remote areas human sacrifice probably did occur. However, it could not have been practiced with great frequency, for an extensive search for accounts by travelers and foreign residents in Tibet turned up only the accounts mentioned above.

I think this illustrates why anything the RCP writes has to be taken with a grain of salt. The general picture presented in this case is accurate, pre-1959 Tibet was a place of grinding feudal exploitation, and enforced ignorance including no modern medical care. Yet for some reason Mike Ely finds it necessary to add dubious claims which can only damage his credibility, and may lead some to doubt the statements which are true.


finally, one of my favorites is the piece on the Cultural Revolution in Tibet, Red Guards and People's Communes (http://rwor.org/a/firstvol/tibet/tibet3.htm) because it blows apart all the assumptions that "chinese destroyed the monasteries." In fact, as this article points out and documents, there was a deep anti-monastery movement among the tibetan people and in the cultural revolution, the challenging of feudal remanants was done by revolutionary Red Guards who formed a mass movement among tibetan people.

Then in some RCP literature, a mountain of salt is needed.

As elsewhere in China, the Cultural Revolution was a fight between two gangs of bureaucrats and generals, each creating their own groups of Red Guards. Both enlisted Tibetans, and it can be difficult to sort out how many joined voluntarily and how many were bureuacratically lined up.

We know the more Liu-aligned "Great Alliance" faction enlisted more Tibetans, probably because they controlled most of the state bureaucracy in Tibet. The Maoist "Rebel" faction relied pretty strongly on Red Guards from elsewhere in the PRC. Both represented state-sponsored repression, not a "mass movement among tibetan people."

Both factions conducted a violent campaign against religious freedom and against "feudal culture" - which meant in practice Tibetan culture and even the Tibetan language. Grunfeld again (pp. 185-186):

Contrary to the propaganda claims that Tibetans were "jubilantly" welcoming the Cultural Revolution, the reality was far more cruel. Even if we discount stories of thousands of Tibetans killed (government officials claim fewer than 100 people died during the GPCR) and of monks and nuns being forced to copulate with each other in public, to smash icons and kill flies, verifiable activities of the Red Guards are terrifying enough. There were killings and people hounded into suicide. People were physically attacked in the streets for wearing Tibetan dress or having non-Han hair styles. An attempt was made to destroy every single religious item. All but a handful of monasteries and temples (the figures range from 2,000 to 6,500) were destroyed, many taken down brick by brick until not a trace was left.

One Tibetan refugee remembers what it was like in her commune:
In the Red Flag Commune, the Cultural Revolution began at the end of 1966....They showed contempt for the Tibetan script and banned Tibetan songs and dances. Tibetans were made to sing Chinese songs, wear Chinese dress, and practice Chinese customs. We were also asked to speak in "Tibetan-Chinese Friendship Language," which was a mixture of Tibetan and Chinese.
....
They came from house to house and forced everyone to buy Mao's portraits and painted his sayings all over the walls. Everybody was required to carry Mao's Red Book at all times. They stopped anyone any time and made them recite Mao's thoughts. If anyone failed, then he was detained.
Paragraph on destruction of religious items omitted to save typing.

Here again, other historians are harsher than Grunfeld.

From the RW article:

The new high school in Tibet had graduated its first senior class in 1964

The (as in one) new high school. A major step forward compared to feudalism. But reflecting Mao's policy of making education a privilege for an elite - perhaps a new elite drawn from humble backgrounds, but the point is that limited education was made available to most people, in contrast to the Cuban Revolution's policies.


What practices are reactionary feudal culture and what practices are Tibetan national culture?

Assumes the false premise used to rationalize the "Cultural Revolution." All culture is inherited from the past. That's what culture is, the accumulation of knowledge from one generation to the next.

A more advanced and progressive culture can only be built on the culture inherited from the past. To tear down and start over, can only result in a step backward. Not that Mao cared, anyway. He held that a less advanced country can build socialism more easily...a rationalization reflecting the reality that it's easier for a bureaucratic caste and its God-Emperor to maintain power and suppress all thought other than the Thought of the Great Helmsman, in an economically and culturally backward country.

But in fact this question wasn't what the Red Guard factions fought over. They fought over which bureaucrat was going to be on top. Both attacked Tibetan culture, and nobody seems to have noticed any difference between 'em in this respect.