Pulling the troops out of Iraq?

[Noah]

Hey guys,

I was just wondering, most Americans supported the war on Iraq (correct me if i'm wrong) but now optimism seems to have dropped but to me it shows how much they don't care about the people of Iraq because once the Americans leave, who's going to train the police? and the army?

I don't think pulling the troops out of Iraq qould be the best thing to do now for the sake of the citizens in Iraq. Insurgents claim they do it for Iraqis (I am Iraqi) but they're doing it for the money and will carry on even when the Americans leave.

PS. I hate insurgents they ransomed my grandad who lives iin Iraq and my dad had to send £5000 over to Iraq to pay for his release :( . He was lucky most get driven to a rural area and a bullet to the back of the head.

Anyway can someone explain their views about whether withdrawing the troops from Iraq is a good idea?

Thanks. Noah

PS. ive been living in england most of my life since I was a few months old, my dad a communist, had to run from Saddam Hussein.

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 05:01 AM
Hey guys,

I was just wondering, most Americans supported the war on Iraq (correct me if i'm wrong)
Once it started anyway. Most people, in any country, will support almost any war, once it starts. "Rally around the flag". "Support the troops."


but now optimism seems to have dropped but to me it shows how much they don't care about the people of Iraq because once the Americans leave, who's going to train the police? and the army?

What, there aren't any Iraqis who know how to fight? (OK, a lot of the most skilled are still Ba'athists). Or an independent Iraq could decide which countries to ask for help, out of all the available options, based on their interests not Washington's.

If the police and army are trained by the U.S. government, they will remain permanently under its influence; the U.S. has a lot of practice in using military aid, training, etc., for this. Including organizing military coups against governments that act contrary to U.S. business interests.


Insurgents claim they do it for Iraqis (I am Iraqi) but they're doing it for the money and will carry on even when the Americans leave.

But they'll be deprived of a justification, a banner for recruiting people and winning support...they do have a base in the Sunni Arab population.

I think the U.S. should withdraw now; partly that's a matter of principle in that I don't support any of the wars Washington conducts to serve its strategic and economic interests...not because it cares about the Iraqi people.

Consider how much destruction Washington has inflicted on Iraq since 1990, with the "economic sanctions" and everything else, and it seems unlikely they're going to benefit most Iraqis now.

[Sons_of_Eureka]

I don't think the coalition troops are welcome and quite frankly they caused enough damage.They also are the ones who are fueling the resistance by murdering the Iraqi peoples.


PS. I hate insurgents they ransomed my grandad who lives iin Iraq and my dad had to send £5000 over to Iraq to pay for his release . He was lucky most get driven to a rural area and a bullet to the back of the head.


I am sorry for the ordeal your family had to go through but you cannot hate the resistance for they are made up of many diffrent factions and thus are not a single united entity.Not all resistance fighters rely on kidnapping people for income some factions would detest these actions.

[danny android]

Personally i kind of agree with you. I am not for the war in Iraq or any war, but however concidering the current situation over there leaving now does not seem like an option. It would only lead to things getting worse, I see a despotism in Iraq again if US troops leave now. I only hope that the new Iraqy government is a truely democratic system and will resist US influence. I do not know if pulling troops from Iraq is the best option for decreasing violience there, though I do feel terrible whenever I hear about another national gaurd unit sent there from my area.

[Rural_Communalist]

Now I'm a little conflicted about the soldiers themselves. Many of them only joined the army because they are poor and need money. But because they go along with the system needless people have to die, and going along with the system is reactionary. But the government puts them at the lower end, and essentially brainwashes them...so I don't know who to feel sorry for, except for all the innocents killed by the US and coalition troops.

[Noah]

Yeah, of course, I dont support America's war on Iraq but once they leave simply the insurgents won't stop and men are afraid to sign up for the army/police force due to suicide bombings. The only recruits that the army and police force have were through the Americans high security and without them, I believe everything will fall to pieces. More citizens of Iraq have been murdered by these 'freedom fighters' than the Americans themselves.

The terrorists are not state rebels (most aren't) they are funded and also have a wage, by surrounding countries such as Syria because Syria are afraid of Iraq. Suddenly Iraq is very democratic and the surrounding countries don't like because they are lead through a dictator not a democracy. Soon the people from the surrounding countries are going to want democracy too and the dictators there don't want that. So when the Americans leave, the insurgents will strike the hardest to make people, especially women, lose their rights and freedom. The attacks aren't fueled by the Americans anymore, they're fueled by the hatred of democracy. The surrounding governments, are very afraid of Iraq's democracy.

Where do you think Iraqi insurgents get the money to buy AK47's, make bombs, learn how to behead and fire mortars and so much other things, their backgarden? It's the surrounding countries, America, simply cannot leave or else Iraq will be manifested by insurgents.

I do feel sorry for the soldiers but what about the innocent people being butchered? The American, Liberators, started it and so now they must defend it, not leave it like a defenseless baby, it has to grow first.

[bezdomni]

The US is not liberating Iraq. If they were liberating Iraq, they would be bringing them socialism.

[codyvo]

Well, getting rid of Hussein wasn't entirely bad, but what we have brought them in exchange is so much worse. If what we really wanted to do was bring democracy to Iraq, we could have done it by sanctions and political pressure. As far as withdrawing the troops now goes, I'm not sure, it would be nice for them to be able to sort things out themselves, but we did fuck up their country pretty bad, almost FUBAR.

[Roses in the Hospital]

I think American troops should be gradually pulled out of Iraq, because it is them who are seen as the occupiers. Obviously if all troops were pulled out of Iraq the place would become even less stable than it already is. Therefore I think the best option would be giving more control to the British troops, who have had far more experience with that kind of situation due to subtler way of operating needed to control the Irish troubles. Obviously, even better would be UN peacekeepers, though I'm not sure whether that would be possible given the UN's oposition to the war...

[Bannockburn]

I would like to see UN peacekeepers there as a symbol of world unity. However, as it stands it seems that Iraq is in such a mess and with reports of civil war will only lead to further chaos if the US pulls out. As it stands, the new government is far too weak, and there is not enough Iraqi trained police and military soldiers to securely suppress the insurgency.

So personally, withdrawing troops might lead to more Iraqi/American blood shed and great atrocities than if they stay there.

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 06:37 PM
The only recruits that the army and police force have were through the Americans high security and without them, I believe everything will fall to pieces. More citizens of Iraq have been murdered by these 'freedom fighters' than the Americans themselves.

Suddenly Iraq is very democratic
If that was true, then then you'd expect Iraqis to be willing to fight to keep their new freedom.

But in fact it's not; let me point out for example that the occupation can arrest anyone they please, for any reason or no reason, and hold 'em for as long as they want. Prisoners are routinely tortured, not only in the occupying armies' prisons but especially in the new Iraqi regime's prisons.


The terrorists are not state rebels (most aren't) they are funded and also have a wage, by surrounding countries such as Syria because Syria are afraid of Iraq.

Even Washington doesn't claim that. And if they believed Syria or other governments were funding the resistance, they'd certainly be doing a lot more about it.

They complain Syria isn't doing enough to stop money and recruits from crossing its border into Iraq...course Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and others haven't stopped that either, nor has the U.S. been able (and/or willing?) to stop PKK fighters from crossing from Iraq into Turkey....


. So when the Americans leave, the insurgents will strike the hardest to make people, especially women, lose their rights and freedom.

Excuse me, but the situation for women's rights is worse now than before the invasion. The governing council - with the Iraqi Communist Party sitting on it - passed a law to reverse the civil personal status law and replace it with sharia.

You mentioned you come from an Iraqi CP family....so let me say that IMO the Iraqi CP is repeating, in essence, its past policy where it joined coalition governments with the Ba'athists.


The attacks aren't fueled by the Americans anymore, they're fueled by the hatred of democracy. The surrounding governments, are very afraid of Iraq's democracy.

Why? If Iraq is a democracy, and conditions are getting worse all the time, shouldn't that prove to neighboring peoples that democracy would be a disaster for them? For Iraq to become a "beacon of freedom", it would A) have to be a democracy B) be more peaceful and prosperous than its neighbors. Neither of these has happened....nor is likely to along the current course.


Where do you think Iraqi insurgents get the money to buy AK47's, make bombs, learn how to behead and fire mortars and so much other things, their backgarden?

From officials of the former regime - some of them in Syria I admit - tribal shieks who are the main landowners, other capitalist elements linked to the old regime. Plus kidnappings for ransom and other crimes.


It's the surrounding countries, America, simply cannot leave or else Iraq will be manifested by insurgents.
How? The Ba'athists and their allies represent only a minority. They have no tanks and helicopters anymore. Guerilla warfare, much less terrorism, has never overthrown a domestic government. (When successful it can prepare a transition to conventional warfare or mass insurrection; the first is unlikely and the second totally impossible in this case.)

Their only hope of victory is over the U.S., bleeding by guerilla warfare until it withdraws; they cannot hope to beat their domestic opponents.


I do feel sorry for the soldiers but what about the innocent people being butchered?

What about the hundreds of thousands murdered by the "economic sanctions"? Now we're supposed to believe it's the pro-war people who are concerned about the Iraqi people. No.

In conclusion, let me point out that the winning slate in the Iraqi elections campaigned on a promise (broken of course) to bring about the withdrawal of the occupying troops. Opinion polls in Iraq have repeatedly shown majorities for early withdrawal.

[Free Palestine]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2005, 03:43 AM

The terrorists are not state rebels (most aren't) they are funded and also have a wage, by surrounding countries such as Syria because Syria are afraid of Iraq.

Even Washington doesn't claim that. And if they believed Syria or other governments were funding the resistance, they'd certainly be doing a lot more about it.

They complain Syria isn't doing enough to stop money and recruits from crossing its border into Iraq...course Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and others haven't stopped that either, nor has the U.S. been able (and/or willing?) to stop PKK fighters from crossing from Iraq into Turkey....
For once I agree with Severian. The truth is that Syria is the ONLY state on Iraq's borders that is doing much to stop jihadis from coming in. Last time I checked, the Jordanian border was wide open also. The Saudi border has never been policed going into Iraq. As of a month or two ago, there was almost no policing of the Iraq borders of Jordan, Syria or Iraq by the US or Iraq. Most of the border patrol sites have been blown up. The border patrol police are cowed, are often not paid, have little or no equipment and often even no uniforms.

The US abandoned the entire northeastern border region after the election and handed it over to Iraq. The Iraqis were promptly chased off. Syria has caught 1,200 trying to go across. Fine. How many has Jordan caught. Jordan doesn't even police its border going into Iraq. How many have the Saudis caught? 5? Official Saudi mosques constantly exhort young men to go to Iraq and nothing is done. In Jordan there is huge support for the anti-Shia Sunni forces in Iraq.

Syria, with a Shia regime, has no good reason to support Shia-hating Sunni jihadis heading into Iraq. The US does indeed have a stated policy of regime change for Syria and threatens Syria all the time. Sanctions have been levied against Syria and Syria is declared an enemy state. Based on that right there, Syria should halt all cooperation with the US and indeed should also halt all dialogue.

[redstar2000]

Since this is the Learning forum, here is something you must all learn.

The longer an imperialist country occupies one of its conquests, the worse things get in the occupied country...and the longer it takes for the occupied country to recover from the occupation afterwards.

That's one of the closest things to a modern "law of history" that you will ever encounter.

Please remove from your minds any notion that U.S. imperialism (or any other country's) will ever do a fucking thing to "help the people".

They never have and they never will. :angry:

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[violencia.Proletariat]

heh yeah i think more people are dieing now because our troops are there. its a magnet for everyone to hates the us in the middle east to come blow us up. oh and free palistine, correct me if im wrong the word jihad can be defined as two opposites of eachother. so i dont think the word should be used when describeing extremists because it all depends on how you look at the meaning.

[Noah]

Thanks for the replies on the topic guys, they really are helping me learn :)

[CEWS]

Pulling out is not effective means of protection, however, its better than staying in.



For the Iraqis, of course.