Posers?

[Patchy]

My friend recently brought up a point that made me think. He told me that if I'm so left, I should just give up everything I have and 'revolutionize'. So, pretty much, shit or get off the pot. I figure this would be foolish, seeing as how the time is not right, yet, and that if we all decided to have nothing and revolutionize, how far would it actually get? We have nothing. We're just out there, on the street, probably undernourished, sick, and just not doing good.

I've only been here for a little while, and I always see references to a revolution. I'm assuming that this revolution is some sort of governmental reform in Amerika, and eventually the whole world? But I may be wrong. As far as I see it, for this to happen, it must happen from the inside out. Us droppping everything and living with nothing would set us back, rather than pushing us forward.

I think he may have made a valid point, we talk about change, but most of us probably live like the ones we're trying to bring down. I doubt we have as much as them, but most of us are probably middleclass, have a home, a job, and go to school.

Just wondering what you all think of this, and also how you live. Are you rich? middleclass? lower class? I would also like to make it clear that I don't support the classes, It just makes things easier to determine where we're all coming from at this point.

[david101]

i think it would not be possible to have a revolution with only an individual as its participant. that's the whole point of the 'revolution', where the masses begin the process of change.

living in a capitalist society, i as an individual try to implement socialist 'policies' of my own in life. i share my income with my family members, as well as my co-workers when the situation arises. i help my co-workers out also in their work, without expecting any renumeration. i talk to my boss as i would to the man polishing shoes outside the office (this opens up another can of worms, but that's another story for another day). i share my knowledge of my profession with people around me (i am involved in the legal profession).

there are many things that one can do on their own while waiting for the masses to 'take up arms', so to speak. furthermore, when the time is right, you may be able to start the fire.

though we live in a capitalist society, it is important that we as a people begin to take on a more socialist mindset because that is where true change will begin.

[STI]

My friend recently brought up a point that made me think. He told me that if I'm so left, I should just give up everything I have and 'revolutionize'.

Being a revolutionary isn't about living on as little as possible or living in a tree (unless you're a primitivist, in which case, there isn't much hope for you anyway :P)


I figure this would be foolish, seeing as how the time is not right, yet, and that if we all decided to have nothing and revolutionize, how far would it actually get? We have nothing. We're just out there, on the street, probably undernourished, sick, and just not doing good.

You've figured correctly.


I've only been here for a little while, and I always see references to a revolution. I'm assuming that this revolution is some sort of governmental reform in Amerika, and eventually the whole world?

You've assumed incorrectly. "Revolution" is the violent overthrow of one class and the taking of power by another (in this case, the bourgeoisie [ruling class] and the proletariat [working class]).

We can't really know for sure where "the revolution" will start, but it'll happen in an advanced capitalist society. It's very unlikely that the US will be the starting point. Western Europe sounds more reasonable.


Us droppping everything and living with nothing would set us back, rather than pushing us forward.

Again, you're very right.


I think he may have made a valid point, we talk about change, but most of us probably live like the ones we're trying to bring down.

Not bloody likely! Do you have any idea how extravagently they live?

And what makes them "them" is that they own the means of production (machines, factories, the tools of production generally) and we have to sell our ability to work (labour power) in order to survive.


but most of us are probably middleclass, have a home, a job, and go to school.

"Middle Class" is largely a myth. Looking at things in terms of "high", "middle", and "low" is inadequate. Class has to do with a person's relation to the means of production.

People who have jobs and go to school are the working class. It's the working class who have to overthrow capitalism.


Are you rich? middleclass? lower class?

I'm working class. I have 2 jobs and go to school full time (plus night school, blah!).


i talk to my boss as i would to the man polishing shoes outside the office

Heh. Try talking to him like he's the one giving you the shaft :P


renumeration

I love that word.

Remuuuuuuneration.

[Clarksist]

If being a communist meant having nothing, then why be a communist? A main point of communism is to have your needs taken care of, and some of your wants so you can be a productive worker in society.

Whenever people tell me what a "true" communist would do, then I just laugh because communism is an economical ideology. But we live in a capitalist society, and there is this thing called wage slavery.

[danny android]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2005, 06:01 PM
Amerika




I love this spelling

Very Abbie Hoffman like

[FreeChechnya]

tell me who this friend is, i would like to ahve a word with him. adam.

[Patchy]

Steve. Lives in the Peg. You might like him. He's not super rich. He's getting military training. He'll be useful when the time comes.

Hey, that sounds pretty damn conniving. I like it.

Anyway, on the topic of the revolution. "Absolute power corrupts absolutely"

What do you think about that? Will it happen this time as well? Will people die by the thousands in collectivism like they have in the past under 'leftist' governments, or will we all be learned from the past, and not repeat it?

I'm talking Stalin, Mao, even Castro to a certain degree. People died from his attempts to boost exports. Not saying that they were or were not leftists, but their rule used the guise (In my opinion) of a leftist communist/socialist/whathaveyou system.

[anomaly]

Well, first, I'll say that I think the majority of us here are proletarians, below the middle class.

Also, I'm sure most of us realize that no 'inidividual' can revolutionize. The masses must revolutionize, wiht a revolution, of course.

And this talk of living' like a communist would' is absurd. How can we live like a communist when we are living in capitalism? The choice, in capitalism, is to live like a bougeois, or don't live at all (not to say we're all bourgeois, hardly, but rather we must emulate them, live with money and greed, to an extent of course).

[Sons_of_Eureka]

I'm just a worker (full time) and i get paid very low as i'm in a trade.

But one day i will drop my job and try to help the peoples of the third by going to the third world and helping the revolution.

'If the revolution won't come to you then must come to the revolution'

[KptnKrill]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2005, 08:48 PM
You've assumed incorrectly. "Revolution" is the violent overthrow of one class and the taking of power by another (in this case, the bourgeoisie [ruling class] and the proletariat [working class]).
*Ahem*

So some say.

[elche08]

Didnt Che say something like

revolution is not like an apple that rippens and falls off the tree, sometimes it needs to be helped?

i mean your talkin about "when the time is right" according to one of the best revolutionary minds the world has ever seen, isn't the right time now?

[hamperleft]

in a comunist society we wouldn't loose every thing we had anyway, just some extra uneeded items


god bless Amerika

[STI]

*Ahem*

So some say.


And others, like yourself maybe? Come now, if you want to discuss something, discuss it for chrisssakes.

[Livetrueordie]

U live in a capitalist society its inevitable that you support it...

[restin256]

I've done a little thinking on this subject, and it makes me ashamed that I earn $15 an hour doing nothing but ordering people in my office around. :(

[slim]

I am nearly 16. Going into further education in politics, economics, english and geography. In the summer im going to do some labouring to get cash for a new guitar and to get a feel of what it would be like to work properly for a while. Ive done some labouring in the past and have found it a good way to get back in touch with myself.

My parents are probably lower middle class.

[Free Spirit]

I have a friend telling me quite the same -"As a radical leftist shouldn't you buy clothes at a second hand store"? Her point was probably that the clothing is reused and in that way I wouldn't be supporting a new clothing production.

[Oldergod]

the basic definition of revolution AS WE MEAN IT is the presented influence on others who are uninformed or less fortunate, ect...

being a doctor and helping those with no insurence is revolutionary....teaching children for practically nothing is revolutionary...fighting a war against the government for the struggling masses that cant fight for themselves...thats revolutionary


just because your a communist or a socialist doesnt mean throw all your shit away...thats your shit...keep it...the reason why communist and socialists even exist is because there are people out there are believe that they can live off of what they need instead of what they want as long as its provided for them...theres nothing wrong with wanting alittle extra...we're all human we ALL want alittle extra...but when what you want creates a social difference of classes as large as it already is?...we have a problem...

if you have alittle extra cash that you cant seem to figure out what you wanna do with or you have some items that you dont use anymore...or even old clothes that you dont wear...try to come up with a way to satisfy yourself but also find a way to donate or give off those things to those who dont have much...and im not saying go to the salvation army or large charities or something....FUCK THAT...give it to the less fortunate DIRECTLY...when i see a poor man or woman on the train i try to give them whatever i have to offer...


your not revolutionary by wearing a che shirt...if you wanna be revolutionary...do something revolutionary

[marxist_socialist_aussie]

I get this sort of questioning bullshit from quite a few of my friends, especially the guys who are pretty damn right wing and really capitalistic. I think the biggest issue with answering this question is that almost innevitably, the person asking it has little to no true understanding of what communism or socialism is. I do not believe that Marx ever outlined a belief system in which everyone was poor and lived on nothing, no it was equality he outlined, or atleast a sense of it. When I answer this I always often get called a hypocrit but I always simply ask back, why? The thing is, if somebody is going to be asshole enough to ask this question, then they must have a good enough knowledge of the subject to back up any ascertations made or they are simply ignorant cappies trying to bait you and make themselves feel superior. Also, in terms of class I am somewhere between upper-middle class and upper class, I have been very blessed in my life but it makes me all the more determined that others should have the oppurtunities and the ability to live a comfortable life like I have been able to.

[Kitbag]

I'm 15. Say I packed everything in, chucked out all my belongings, walked out of the house and lived in a cardboard box for the rest of my life, do you think your friend thinks I could 'revolutionize' then? What people don't understand is that to fight the system you can still be a part of it. My school is a really capitalist-based area, nobody cares about the students, as long as the teachers are pushing them hard enough. Everything is about money. But I'm not going to give up my education because of that, if anything I'd rather stay in it, learn how to advance in the world, and when I'm older and in a higher position I've helped myself fight the system in a much larger way than I ever could now. I mean sticking leaflets in McDonalds, and putting up fight capitalism posters around the school is one thing, but it's not going to make some right-wing idiot think "Oh, that poster says I should support communism, so I suppose i should do then," is it? And another thing, if we did give evrerthing up, then we wouldn't be able to revolutionize properly. Like it or not, it'll take money to do that, really. No offence at all, but you do not see homeless people setting up anti-cappie leagues or flyposting leftie stuff or protesting against animal rights, do you? They can't afford to, because they need what it would take to do that to live! Tell your friend he needs to think things through properly.

[romanm]

Use your wealth to fund revolution. There is nothing poser about that!

[Kitbag]

Exactly! It only becomes Poser when you start buying lots of sports cars and shallow women or whatever. I'd know...

[Parkbench]

the issue here is "when will the revolution happen." We should not be Errico Malatesta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Errico_Malatesta), stubbornly convinced that it will happen soon.

Here's the issue:

As a society, we have gone so far deep into our system, even only over three -hundred plus years, that one could consider it a 'quagmire' from an anarchist/communist point of view. For a time, I believed the people who said it was futile because nothing would really change--now, I know the only way "the revolution" would happen, unfortunately, at this stage, would involve massive social upheaval.

Here's the process:

As an anarchist, I thought of the root of inequality. It is organisation: of any kind! Social and human organization is key. So what do I mean by this? large, objective organisations. It is my postulation that when any organised group basing themselves off of a doctrine or objectivity, the seeds of their own corruption and failure will grow, not necessarily leading to its failure, but to its ineffectiveness/moral failure. This can be applied to anything: religion, government, PETA, Enron (or any corporation for that matter); the issue is the very nature of what organised dehumanization (which is what these are) is makes it ineffective and in my opinion, deplorable.

So what's the "ideal" solution? A constant decentralization process. A situation where there were enough of a check, there were enough of a true balance, that no objective powers were allowed to grow, no authority was abused, is the goal.

So what does this have to do with the revolution? Well, I believe, in the sense that most of us envision it, it will be a painful transition. Personally, at this stage, I endorse more pragmatic anarchism, which still involves fervent activism, but has more realistic, palpable, short/long-term goals--global or nation-wide anarchism is a very complicated scenario and is rarely though out properly. Effectively, Anarchism can take its roots locally, not just in ignored, insignificant communes now, but with true fighting. Whatever your goal, it is fundamental to know the way things grow: they start small, and spread. Anarchism is a meme like any other; we need to spread that meme.

[Kitbag]

Very well said.

[Zingu]

I'm 16, radical student, I'm *technically* petty burgeoisie since my mother owns a tiny amount of worthless stock options in Peregrine, that succumbed to accounting fraud.
My freinds often find me a novelty, and make fun of my "unothorodox" beliefs; but hey, they'll be first up against the wall when the revolution comes! :lol:

Or I'll be voting conservative when I'm 21, sigh.


Anyways, the best thing you can do, if you are not doing it already, is cut down on consumerism! Consumerism breeds false counsciuness and alienation! Distance yourself from identifying yourself with ads and marketing fads!

[Black Dagger]

No offence at all, but you do not see homeless people setting up anti-cappie leagues or flyposting leftie stuff or protesting against animal rights, do you?

No, but i wish they did! :lol:

[comradesteele]

anyone read envaison by crimethinc??? he seems to be doing alright and he has nothing. www.getfreedropout.tk is quite interestting the leaflets there. if you droped everythign you still could live, you could live a good life, you could still be revoultuionary.

[Kitbag]

I haven't read it, but might do soon.

[lennonist-leninist]

If you think about it if you pack up all your crap and just get ride of it whereever you purchesd those items from are making money off of those things. And you dident get anything out of it. What i think you have to do when the revolution comes you must leave all your dreams off your futuer and put your hopes into the revolution. You must leave what you want for yourself behind and put everything into the revolution.