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BOZG
8th October 2002, 17:02
Here (http://www.irlgov.ie/iveagh/Treaty.pdf) is a link to a PDF of the treaty. It may be necessary to refer to some of the past treaties passed by the EU. Here (http://europa.eu.int/abc/obj/treaties/en/entoc.htm) is a link to some of the older treaties. It maybe be better to just search for the individual treaties.

For an explanation of some of the issues which the Nice Treaty affects click here. (http://struggle.ws/ireland/nice/)

Anyone who would like to print out posters against the Nice Treaty, can find some here. (http://gofree.indigo.ie/%7Edurneys/pages/resources.html)

(Edited by BornOfZapatasGuns at 5:08 pm on Oct. 8, 2002)

canikickit
8th October 2002, 22:33
vote yes.

Exploited Class
8th October 2002, 22:47
Did I just go to a libertarian website?

canikickit
9th October 2002, 00:30
That's what it says, isn't it?

canikickit
9th October 2002, 04:28
I actually have yet to decide what way I am going to vote, but "Yes" seems like the progressive way to me.

The EU could turn into an evil bucket of shit, but right now I think it seems alright.

Yes, we will lose power under the treaty, but everyone will lose power. It is essential that we do lose power to maintain democracy.

BOZG
9th October 2002, 08:07
I really really hope that lost post was a joke. VOTE NO. STOP THE EU SUPERSTATE.

Conghaileach
9th October 2002, 18:47
Why would you want to vote Yes?

The Nice treaty gives more power to the bigger states, basically meaning that Britain, France and Germany will control the EU. This representation means that the smaller nations (like Ireland) will completely lose their representation on the European Commisson and a number of other boards.

The Irish will be returned to a simple colonial status, this time under economic domination by Europe's bigger countries and not just Britain. In the end, the Free State will have to choose between being controlled from Brussels or leaving the EU.

canikickit
9th October 2002, 19:28
How do you propose the EU will be governed after enlargement? The commisions and what not would be too big if the numbers stayed the same.

Are you in favour of enlargement?

BOZG
9th October 2002, 21:09
I oppose the eu completely but there's nothing I can do about that. The eu should be run on a "1 country, 1 vote" basis with each country able to opt out of any policy that they do not want. The Nice treaty plans to bring the countries closer and closer together through common policies which if the "qualified majority" to use the eu term, votes for, the other countries must accept it whether it harms their economies or not or whether the people disagree. If enlargement occurs, Britain, France, Italy and Germany, if they combine their votes will be able to form a qualified majority over the other countries. Is that democracy?

IHP
10th October 2002, 01:00
BofZG,

do you propose, that there are blanket laws, and each nation-state (if they still exist) can vote for/against this law, or legislation?

this isnt an attack, just a question.

--IHP

canikickit
10th October 2002, 01:10
That's not true.
Under the Treaty of Nice 169 votes are required for a qualified majority.

Germany, France, Italy and the UK would have a combined vote of 116 (29 each).

The six biggest countries and one other would have to unite to gain a qualified majority.

At present it would require the six biggest countries and two others to unite.

I am aware that we are losing power, but I think the after enlargement our economy will benefit. Not initially but in the long run.

BOZG
10th October 2002, 17:41
You are correct. I misread the 29 votes as a 39. My apologies. Even though they do not have a straight out qualified majority, it would not be very hard to "coax", a some of the next largest countries to vote with them.


I am aware that we are losing power, but I think the after enlargement our economy will benefit. Not initially but in the long run.

If that's how you think you might as will leave this board.

canikickit
10th October 2002, 20:03
Come off it man.
We have to consider whether or not this will benifit us.
The reality is that the EU is primarily about economies. At least it should be.

I know that what I said sounds terrible, but I don't think we should have no power and just be rich, but perhaps the effects of this loss of power would be outweighed by the benifits of a prosperous economy and higher employment etc., etc. I think it is fair to say that we should strive for a better economy, it is not my ideal, but I'd rather live in a good capitalist environment where people can prosper rather than another environment where people starve. Especially when the issues only allow for a capitalist environment. This vote isn't about socialism, its about good capitalism or shit capitalism.

Anyway, I don't really think the issues are as clear cut as some of the posters would have us believe. And like I said I haven't fully decided yet (you'll be pleased to know I'm leaning slightly more towards "no" now).

I was having another look at the numbers just now, and the balance of the Council of the EU is remaining pretty much the same. It would actually take two countries to unite with the six largest to form a majority (the same as now).

I haven't voted yet, so don't ostracise me. Some of the stuff I've said might seem crazy to you but I'm conflicted over this issue.

Fuck it, I don't think it will really make much difference anyway.

BOZG
10th October 2002, 20:26
It may appear that the EU will help the economy but privatisation does not help anyone. If the Nice Treaty passes, the EU will have the power to bypass the national governments of the member states when negotiating with the WTO and there won't be a shit the people can do about it.

Conghaileach
11th October 2002, 16:01
On canikickit's point on Nice leading to a more prosperous economy...


The Blanket
August 30, 2002
The Oldest Profession

Eoghan O’Suilleabhain

During The Middle Ages, tens of thousands of people all across Europe
were wiped out by the bubonic plague. Included in The Black Death toll
were thousands of craftsmen whose decrease in population increased the
labour value of the surviving craftsmen engendering powerful Medieval
Guilds capable of negotiating far better monetary arrangements for their
living members thus serving as a precursor of sorts for today’s Labour
Unions.

The above paragraph is standard Chapter One reading in just about any
Labour Economics or History textbook for the sole pedagogic purpose of
driving home the irrefutable point about how wages or prices are
determined by the market forces of supply and demand. That is, if demand
for any goods or services exceeds their supply, then prices or wages
will rise. Likewise, if the supply of any goods or services exceeds
demand for same, then prices or wages will fall. The current Dublin
housing market is a good real world example of this long tried and
tested economic axiom: too few houses and apartments (i.e. supply) for
the population that wants and needs to be served (i.e. demand) means
prices and rents for same will rise as they have.

This is one of the major reasons why multi-national business
corporations push for the making and enlarging of free trade zones. It
gives them greater access to an ever larger supply of cheaper labour as
the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) did for US companies in
Mexico and as the Treaty of Nice will do for the EU in Eastern Europe.
Not surprisingly, much of the usual corporate sponsored politicians,
academics and media pundits in the US denied this reality for the
benefit of their pro-NAFTA business johns. It is like the oldest
profession: politicians, professors and the press, like prostitutes,
will say and do things for money that they would not otherwise say and
do for free.

Enter Exhibit A: Dick Roche, current Irish Minister of State for
European Affairs. Prior to that appointment he was the Minister of State
at the Department of Taoiseach where he once upon a time was asked his
views about the second running of the Treaty of Nice and he responded as
follows: “It would be an affront to democracy.”

Now comfortably ensconced in his new position like a high priced call
girl for European Affairs he lashes out today at the No to Nice camp
with his very own guest editorial entitled “No Camp argument suffers
fundamental flaws” (The Sunday Business Post, August 18, 2002, at page
n24). In it Roche attacks Justin Barrett of the No to Nice campaign and
Professor Anthony Coughlan of the National Platform for putting forward
false assertions about Ireland’s position on the free movement of
workers such as making “…baseless allegations about jobs and wage
levels.”

Specifically, Roche claims: “Coughlan’s assertion that the influx of
foreign workers will drive down wages in Ireland, because wages are
determined in his words ‘by the law of supply and demand’ is nonsense.
Even his own political allies have discredited the claim.” (emphasis
added).

Notice big Dick didn’t say “his own economic allies” because that would
have to include the entire Economics profession, or at least those
Economists who aren’t in any way sponsored by Multi-National Corporate
johns. And think about just how much money Big Business would have to
pay an Economist anywhere to publicly mutter “Voila! Wages are not
determined by the law of supply and demand.” For any Economist to say or
write this would be professional suicide. They could never for instance
work again as expert witnesses in legal cases because the cross
examination of their proffered expert credentials would always go
something like so:

Attorney: “So Professor Twatsky, you say you’ve been a
Professional Economist for the last 20 years, numerous
publications, research and teaching assignments, all well
and good, but tell me Sir, did you ever write or say that
wages in free market economies are not determined by the
law of supply and demand?”

Economist: “Yes.”

Attorney: “Oh, then what pray tell does determine wages or prices in
a free market economy if not the free market forces of
supply and demand?”

Economist: “Hominahominah.”

With all due respect to the late Jackie Gleason, but what else could
such a compromised Economist say? Except for prostitution, politics &
free market media punditry, once you sell your soul like that, you’re
pretty much finished in most other professions. You become a laughing
stock because you can no longer be credible in your allegations or
assertions about reality, economic or otherwise. But pundits and
politicians, like prostitutes, aren’t here on this Earth to describe
reality for the rest of us. As The Baffler Magazine Editor Thomas Frank
points out about the so called New Economy theory (capitalist ideologue)
pundits who seem impervious to the usual consequences of error:
“…generating an accurate picture of economic life really wasn’t their
main function.” (The Guardian Weekend, August 17, 2002, at page 23)
(Emphasis added).

Political propagandising was! Since: “Their trade was politics…New
Economic theory was less an objective assessment of our situation than a
world class hustle by a political movement that believed it was very
close to winning the game. --- In such circumstances… objective
wrongness doesn’t matter. Propaganda does. Money walks while bullshit
just talks and talks and talks.” (Ibid, at page 24) (Emphasis added).

Although Thomas Frank was analysing political pundits in service to
corporate power, the same analysis works when studying the behaviour and
sayings of politicians in service to the same corporate powers. How else
do you explain Dick Roche’s utter nonsense that wages aren’t determined
by supply and demand? If only 1% of the 75 million or so people in the
EU applicant states of Eastern Europe decided to come to Ireland
(legally or illegally), that would mean finding housing, jobs or some
kind of subsistence (dole or criminal) for 75,000 new people. If 2%
came, then for 150,000 new people. And if 3% came, well, do the math.

Now you know why Fianna Fail Foreign Minister Brian Cowen waived
Ireland’s right to restrict immigration from the 75 million citizens of
candidate countries for a period of up to seven years. Cheaper labour
moving west will depress existing wage structures here just as surely as
dying craftsmen during The Middle Ages increased it. And the only way
around this reality is to deny it like a liar for hire. No wonder IBEC
supports enlargement and such things as “flexible labour markets” (i.e.
weakened labour unions or none at all).

Cowen and Roche are both just manifestations of the same law of
political gravity that says law follows politics and politics follows
economics. They know who brought them and it wasn’t we. Hence their
second referendum on the Treaty of Nice and all of our need to say no to
it once again since it is imperative for the future of Ireland and other
small nations. We simply cannot let their hustle win this game!

So please, if you feel the same way, contact among others the NO TO NICE
CAMPAIGN at 60a Capel Street, Dublin 1. Telephone: (01) 874 - 6858. Fax:
(01) 873 - 0464. Web: www.no2nice.org & Email: [email protected]

And fight the power!

Conghaileach
11th October 2002, 16:01
Over the thirty years since Ireland joined Europe, the Irish have received some twenty billion pounds (the currency that was replaced by the Euro at the beginning of this year) from Brussels. Not a small chunk of change. However, in joining, Ireland agreed to give up territorial control of its immensely rich fishing grounds, leaving them open to plunder by other European fishing fleets. In consequence, those fleets, especially the Spaniards, have extracted an average of 14 billion pounds worth of fish every year since 1972.


http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn0811.html

peaccenicked
13th October 2002, 09:12
''The Nice Treaty proposes to amend Article 17 of the Treaty on the European Union to read, "The policy of the Union in accordance with this Article shall not prejudice the specific character of the security and defence policies of certain Member States".

Ireland's specific defence policy is to maintain neutrality - IRISH NEUTRALITY WILL NOT BE AFFECTED.''

This was my biggest concern. The European Central bank will still be boss. No matter what. A yes vote is good for making a super power in Europe which might be able to tame, somewhat, the ROGUE superpower, the USA. While socialism is still objectively weak, we should be thinking politically and not with short term economics as our guide.

The international working class will live in less fear, if American interventionism is curtailed.

canikickit
19th October 2002, 23:12
Sorry lads, I actually idn't see the posts after BOZG's on the 10th. Now I've alrady voted ("No" ) and I'm afraid it really looks like a yes, although that's judging just from the Dublin constituency returns, and my personal gauge of the situation.

(Edited by canikickit at 11:13 pm on Oct. 19, 2002)

canikickit
20th October 2002, 00:40
Peacce, the rejection of the Nice Treaty (which probably won't happen [hopefully I'll be eating my words tomorrow]) isn't going to cause the collapse of the possibility of a multipolar world. Apparently it wouldn't even result in a block on enlargement.

I am pro-Europe Union and pro-enlargement, but not in this fashion.