Al-Sadr

[enigma2517]

What do you guys think of the cleric Al-Sadr?

I remember when he started out as the evil insurgency boogeyman, then the US pinned him down, and then he said he'd lay down arms if he could enter politics.

I always kind of saw him as more of an Islamic fundementalist (some of his comments are...erhm...) but I just recently read that he is currently negotiating a peace between the Sunni and Shia communities which are accusing each other of murder. Anti-sectarianism is always a plus :D

Whats your opinion?

[h&s]

To put it bluntly, he is a wanker.
His militias try ot impose the segregation of the sexes, and the compulsory veiling of women. They have been linked to the intimidation of prostitutes, forcing them underground into more and more dangerous situations, and they ahve burnt down shops that sell alcohol.
I don't care what idiot tries to tell me that this guy is an anti-imperialist and thus must be supported - he is a theocrat, and an enemy of the working class.

[bolshevik butcher]

Yeh, i hate these people that say i should support saddam or kim jong il because they are anti-imperialists. So what? They are also tyrants that impose(d) terrible conditions on their people.

[h&s]

Exactly. The class struggle is the only struggle I am interested in.

[bolshevik butcher]

Yeh, it's like picking between stalin and hitler, why pick either?

[Edward Norton]

They have been linked to the intimidation of prostitutes, forcing them underground into more and more dangerous situations.

What is more more important, destroying the global reach of US imperialism or defending the 'rights' of a few whores?

Giving a slap on the wrist and telling the prostitues not to comtinue their 'job' is NOTHING in comparison to the 100,000+ Iraqi killed by US/UK bombs and shootings, the 500,000+ dead Iraqi CHILDREN who were killed by US/UK imperialist sanctions, not to forget the other 100,000+ Iraqis killed by the imperialists in the Gulf War of 1991.

Thats a minimum total of 700,000 people dead!

Imperialism is the MAIN structure that capitalism uses to CONTINUE it's parasitic existence. Do you think that the capitalist class gave the workers in the US and Europe the minimum wage for the fun of it? Of course not, because the slave labour is now in the imperialist controlled nations of the 'third world'. Since 2003, Iraq has now joined that group of unfortunate nations that is now used as a base to loot it's resources and labour.

Capitalism has to be defeated through defeating imperialism, and if the 'Islamist whacko terrorists', that you liberals describe them as, are the ones who will defeat imperialism in the middle east, then I SUPPORT them.

Thats more important than so-called 'sexual oppression' of whores and homosexuals. If a few whores and homosexuals have to be 'punished' in the process of defeating imperialism then so be it!

You liberal types seem to be obessed with sexual rights, which shows that you have no REAL understanding of oppression as the oppression that imperialism imposes on nations is something a whole lot WORSE!

Your statements show nothing but the fact that you are comfortable westerner who thinks oppression is not being allowed to view pornography or two men unable to marry each other or to pay a whore for their 'services'.

Go and live in Iraq, then you will see REAL oppression, children being shoot by imperialist troops, people being arrested without trial and then tortured in imperialist jails, whole citites being bombed to rubble, like Fallujah.

Besides, its not just the Islamists who look down on pornography, prostitution and homosexuality. MOST if not all of Arab society considers these 'lifestyles' to be immoral and talk to and Arab and they would tell you that they strongly dislike these three social groupings.

Or do you expect the whole middle east to change their culture for your pleasure?

[LSD]

Edward, that little rant of yours makes me have to ask, do you consider homosexuality to be "wrong" or undesirable?

[Edward Norton]

No, the point of that was that it's unrealistic to say that every anti-imperialist resistance should be in favour of gay rights or the right for people to look at porn films etc...

Arabs are socially conservative by an large (I can vouch for this, having Arab relatives and living in an Arab country for 5 years) and if the Iraqi resistance started making videos talking about legalising prostitution or Sheik Usama bin Laden made another one of his videos talking about how gays should have rights, both resistance groups would lose their support amongst the population of the middle east in seconds.

My point is this, some left-wingers are of the view that sexual oppression is somehow a MAJOR factor in capitalism's continued existence, it's not!

Imperialism is the system which allows capitalism to function, therefore imperialism needs to be defeated AT ALL COSTS!

If an anti-imperialist system persecutes gays I can support it because at least they are anti-imperialist.

[viva le revolution]

Reading the chants here has only solidified my view that any real revolution will only take place in the third-world. The people in the west are more concerned with populist issues. The main issue at stake is the economic liberation of the working class from capitalism and imperialism not gay and prostitute rights.
sure, they should have their rights but that's not the main point here now is it?
Asking others whether they are against gays is easy, but i will ask you, do you believe gay rights are more important than the class struggle?

[Edward Norton]

Tanks, viva la revolucion, for backing me up here.

At least someone here can see the pivitol role imperialism plays in global capitalism.

[h&s]

I just mentioned the prostitute issue because it was the main theme of an article I'd just read. Its by no means the main issue - the main issue is that this twat's militias go around terrorising anyone they don't agree with.
Is the attacking of students eating outside just because, shock horror, they a mixed gender group, any worse than the terrorising the US troops do?
Is intimidating workers who dare form unions worse than what the US do?


Go and live in Iraq, then you will see REAL oppression, children being shoot by imperialist troops, people being arrested without trial and then tortured in imperialist jails, whole citites being bombed to rubble, like Fallujah.

Go to Iran and see the real oppression there....



If an anti-imperialist system persecutes gays I can support it because at least they are anti-imperialist.
Sounds just like I can support Stalin even though he killed 220000000 people, becasue at least he opposed Hitler.
Its a stupid and a classless standpoint.
The only group of people that can change society permanently are the working class, and I will only ever support the working class movements.
Imperialism is a byproduct of capitalism - there is no point in concentrating solely on that.
Cut it off at the base - destroy capitalism through a workers movement - there is no point in picking out the best of a bad bunch of ruling class movements.


The people in the west are more concerned with populist issues. The main issue at stake is the economic liberation of the working class from capitalism
I agree. I am not going on about gay rights - i didn't even mention it - I mentioned one small point about prostitution.
You say you are agaist populism - well what is more populist than anti-imperialism? The class struggle, and the class struggle alone, will get rid of capitalism and imperialism in one fell swoop.

[viva le revolution]

Originally posted by h&[email protected] 15 2005, 03:38 PM

You say you are agaist populism - well what is more populist than anti-imperialism? The class struggle, and the class struggle alone, will get rid of capitalism and imperialism in one fell swoop.
I agree, only class struggle can bring about any real change.
However imperialism and capitalism are both sides of the same coin. As i said before, the only factor we should be focusing on is class struggle. This means opposing both.
.........Am i wrong?

[bolshevik butcher]

So you reaguard al-sadir as a representitive of the workers :blink:

[Edward Norton]

So you reaguard al-sadir as a representitive of the workers

No I don't regard Al Sadr as a socialist or even a social democrat.

Al Sadr is a radical ultra right wing anti imperialist paleoconservative, much like Patrick Buchanan in the US.

Al Sadr wants an Islamic Iraq that oppose the US imperialist and Zionist designs in the middle east.

The point is him and others will, by defeating US imperialism in Iraq, weaken the global reach of imperialism and thus capitalism globally. Imperialism and capitalism are interconnected and imperialism gives global capitalism it's never ending supply of slave labour and looted resources from the third world.

Like I said before, the proletariat in the first world are not really looking for a revolution at the moment, because the capitalism system has given them a few comforts, comforts paid for by the exploitation of the thrid world.

Once the third world is liberated from imperialism, the first world proletariat will see the true reality of the capitalist system.

Also, I do not really support Al Sadr as he keeps doing deals with the Americans every now and then to save himself. For a whole year now his group has NOT killed one imperialist soilder, instead Al Sadr wants to 'participate' in the sham puppet 'parliament' set up by the US.

I personally support Musab al Zarqawi, the main leader of the Iraqi resistance.

H&S, when you say your on the side of the workers, who do you think make up the majority of the resistance? When you see news footage of some lad with his AK-47 in the slums of Baghdad, do you see him wearing Georgio Armani suits and getting around in a porsche?

However, I have FAILED to see ONE worker in the puppet 'parliament' the US imposed on Iraq or even ONE worker supporting the US in general.

The Iraqi working class make up the resistance and the Iraqi working class are opposed to US imperialism.

But since you don't like the resistance what do you suppose the Iraqis do?

Don't say that they should strike or have 'peaceful protests' as they will NOT get the US out of Iraq.

The Americans ONLY understand the way of the gun and therefore ALL Americans in Iraq should have their pathetic lives ended with the gun.

[Sons_of_Eureka]

Zarqawi Does Not Exist
by VictorP

Demythologizing the boogey man of Fallujah.


Nobody has actually seen Zarqawi since late 2001; everything we
know since then has been from prisoner confessions and statements
issued by different people claiming to be Zarqawi.

Neither the CIA, the FBI, nor the Defense Department have certified,
on the record, that any of these statements are likely from Zarqawi.


The horrible things being done in Iraq under the name of Zarqawi are
no laughing matter. The Iraq Intelligence Service is after him, the
followers of al Sadr are after him, the residents of Fallujah are after
him, the Shi’ite majority in Iraq are after him, ten million Iraqis who
could use the big US reward money are after him, and two Iraqi
resistance groups have pronounced a death sentence on him. But
nobody can find him. Why not? There are three possibilities:


1) The one-legged Jordanian thug who is semi-literate, threatens
Shi’ites, and is a squat fellow with tattoos on his arms, is the most
elusive super-villain ever -- an inspiration to the next generation of thugs.


2) The real Zarqawi is long dead, but a composite Zarqawi who is
literate, urbane, has been created by Iraqi resistance groups who
seek to terrorize the United States and the puppet government they
have set up in Iraq -- an inspiration to the next generation of Iraq
avengers.


3) The real Zarqawi is long dead, but a literate, tall fellow with two
legs and no tattoos on his arms has been created by US military
intelligence as a straw man to justify everything about the Iraq war.
However, a rogue group has hijacked the US Zarqawi identity and
is responsible for the beheadings -- an inspiration to copycats and
future groups to do the same.


An analysis of the audio messages delivered by the four different
“Zarqawis” indicates the third scenario to be the most likely, given
the distinctly American and non-Arabic expressions and themes in
the various statements.


The strange case of Marine Corporal Hassoun, who went missing
June 21 between Baghdad and Fallujah, then appeared in a hostage
video with a sword at his head, adds to the mystery of the Zarqawis.
The Marines intensified their efforts to bomb the hell out of Zarqawi
“safe houses” in Fallujah, not caring if the missing marine was held in
one of the houses. That bizarre behavior on the part of the USMC
makes it seem as though they wanted Hassoun dead. When Hassoun
disappeared, so did the voice of one of the Zarqawis – Zarqawi of
the Nick Berg and Kim Sun-il videos (same voice, same person in
both videos). A different Zarqawi released a 16-minute statement on
the same day the Kim Sun video was released (June 22). Different
voice, no mention of Kim Sun or of a marine hostage.


If the Berg & Kim Sun Zarqawi makes another statement (same voice)
in a way that can be proven to be from Iraq (rather than, say, North
Carolina), that would really clear suspicion from Hassoun. Or, here’s
an idea with no chance of happening: if the real Zarqawi were found
(or made a video statement of himself, unmasked) we could determine
which, if any, of the 4 Iraq Zarqawis is the real Zark without the CIA’s
white smoke/black smoke method of authenticating statements.
Just a thought.


For the voice analysis see threads on www.LibertyForum.org

For you Edward Norton and the other Zarqawi belevers.

I Support the real resistance not the Fox news one.


The Americans ONLY understand the way of the gun and therefore ALL Americans in Iraq should have their pathetic lives ended with the gun.

I couldn't agree more.

[Severian]

Originally posted by Edward [email protected] 15 2005, 10:27 PM
I personally support Musab al Zarqawi, the main leader of the Iraqi resistance.
Priceless! The logical conclusion of this whole "anything anti-American is good" approach, finally stated out loud. (The other logical conclusion, of course, being support to French and German imperialism.)

Of course, Zarqawi and his "al-Qaeda in Iraq" group are doing the occupation the greatest of all possible favors. They treat the majority of Iraq's population - especially Shi'a and Kurds - as enemies to be slaughtered en masse.

Naturally this has pushed the majority of Iraq's population into the arms of the occupiers. Divide and rule.

No suprise then that the Sadrists have dropped out of the armed resistance...how do you maintain an alliance with people who want to slaughter you en masse as "heretics".

The Sadrists - and Norton's - attitude towards "whores" has a tremendous symptomatic significance. It shows what they think of women - who are half the population. And as Engels pointed out, the degree of women's emancipation is an important measure of a society's freedom in other respects.

These "Islamic" groups, as well as the Ba'athists who are the other major element of the resistance, are enemies of the working class. No workers' organization in Iraq - which actually has to deal with them - regards them as anything else.

The emancipation of the working class can only be the act of the workers ourselves. Accept no substitutes.

No capitalist force will defeat imperialism.

[Severian]

Originally posted by Edward [email protected] 15 2005, 10:27 PM
Al Sadr is a radical ultra right wing anti imperialist paleoconservative, much like Patrick Buchanan in the US.
Wait, are you saying Patrick Buchanan is anti-imperialist? He's a fascist demagogue and a former Nixon and Reagan administration official. The U.S. equivalent of LePen, basically.


H&S, when you say your on the side of the workers, who do you think make up the majority of the resistance? When you see news footage of some lad with his AK-47 in the slums of Baghdad, do you see him wearing Georgio Armani suits and getting around in a porsche?

Sam Walton didn't wear Armani suits either, and he drove a pickup truck. So what? Didn't make him a worker.

Takes a lot of money to conduct all those operations, y'know. Guess where they're getting it? Former regime officials, tribal shieks who are the major rural landowners, all kinds of capitalist elements linked to the old regime.

Also:

The typical recruit to al-Qaeda is Western-educated and has a wealthy, professional background, according to a new study.

The analysis of 500 members of Osama bin Laden's organisation has turned Western experts' presumptions about al-Qa'ida upside down.

Marc Sageman, a forensic psychiatrist who conducted the study, said he assumed it would find that most recruits were poor and ill-educated. 'The common stereotype is that terrorism is a product of poor, desperate, naive, single young men from Third World countries, vulnerable to brainwashing and recruitment into terror,' he said.

However, his study showed 75per cent of the al-Qaeda members were from upper-middle-class homes and that many were married with children; 60 were college-educated, often in Europe or the US.

Some, such as British-born terrorist Omar Sheikh, were educated at fee-paying schools before heading for Afghanistan, Bosnia or Chechnya...

Dr Sageman said most of the terrorists came from a small number of wealthy Arab countries, from immigrant communities in the West or from Southeast Asia. Few were from poor Islamic countries such as Afghanistan...

He said most grew up in caring families concerned about their communities. The men in Dr Sageman's sample joined al-Qaeda at an average age of 26. About half grew up as religious children, but only 13 - mostly from Southeast Asia - attended Islamic schools.

I posted this on the Che-Lives Newswire when it came out but the link to the full article (in "The Austrialian" newspaper) has unfortunately expired.

Truth is, this was pretty obvious even before the study came out.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Interesting. On a related note. There was a study on suicidebombers, with results similair to this one. The suicidebombers were usually well-educated, secular-religionist, middle-class, a caring loving enviroment and usually not very vocal on the concerned issues.

[viva le revolution]

Hmm.....Severian you an expert at mincing and turning words around, i must admit.
First of all all Norton was saying was that the rights of PROSTITUTES, not women, PROSTITUTES, take a back seat in front of class struggle.

second, His comparison with Patrick Buchanon was that both are religious fundamentalists. Nothing to do with anti-imperialism. nice try but no cigar.

third, any military operation needs funding. Even leftist organizations need funding. money doesn't grow on trees y'know.

fourth, OH MY GOD a psychiatrist studied members of al-qaeda! let me guess where.... gitmo right? Now those americans don't let anybody contact the inmates. Then why allow this guy to interview them and study them? There certainly seems no possibility in your mind that he is connected somehow to the washington guys. I'm going out on a limb here, but wasn't Australia one of the front-runners in george bush's gang? Pardon me but an article in an Australian mainstream newspaper isn't taken as the gospel truth in my book.

Fifth, Use your brains guys, why would well-educated, wealthy secular giys want to blow themselves up for a religious cause? It's like Donald Trump blowing himself up for palestine! C'mon. Then i don't think you should be lambasting the media if you beleive anything it says anyway!

[h&s]

H&S, when you say your on the side of the workers, who do you think make up the majority of the resistance? When you see news footage of some lad with his AK-47 in the slums of Baghdad, do you see him wearing Georgio Armani suits and getting around in a porsche?

However, I have FAILED to see ONE worker in the puppet 'parliament' the US imposed on Iraq or even ONE worker supporting the US in general.
But since you don't like the resistance what do you suppose the Iraqis do?

Don't say that they should strike or have 'peaceful protests' as they will NOT get the US out of Iraq.


I know that the resistance is mainly made up of working class people, but that does not make the resisitance working class. It is the aims and methods that make that - the US army is almost solely made up of working class men but is that a working class organistation?
The puppet government and 'democracy' in Iraq will not solve anything either.
Only workers organising as workers in trade unions and the like can defeat capitalism and therefore imperialism.
Good old fashioned workers revolution is the only way forward.

*Edit*
By the way I want to make it clear that while I don't supoprt the armed resistance I do not oppose the majority of it.
I support the right of the Iraqi people for self-determination and therefore their right to attack any occupying force.
As regards to Al Zaqari he is by no means the leader of the resistance - he is the leader of the suicidal maniacs who think that killing Iraqi civilians and promoting sectarian conflict is the way forward.