Anarchy in the UK

[slim]

Hello,

The time for the revolutionary struggle in Europe will come. Obviously i must be careful how i word such things.

The existing groups in the UK are too busy with their own structure to worry about the people. We will be the first proper group to exist in the UK. If you want to join then you can join either political or activist branches. Take a look here:

www.freewebs.com/humanrightsassociation

This should be adequate and has my link if you wish to know more. The site is only a brief outline and may have some innaccurate/ underexplained sentences.

Do Chara de Geo.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2005, 01:42 PM
The existing groups in the UK are too busy with their own structure to worry about the people.
Well, you need to be busy concerning yourself with the structure of an organisation if you want to be effective in your objectives. The anarchist movement is significantly small, so our tasks have to be about actually building that movement.

The debate around the G8 as far as class struggle anarchists are concerned, should be about moving towards direct community action and building networks of dissent within communities. This is what we should be aiming for and I think it is an opinion widely accepted in the movement.

In order to achieve that, you first have to have a structure to work from, otherwise how will you get anything done? Your criticism isn't fair. There is a process to building a movement and the anarchist movement, unfortunatly, is still at the beginning of that.

[slim]

Tell me what anarchist organisations have done to further recruitment.

Not a lot i wouldnt imagine. Many people have no idea what an anarchist really is let alone know about the groups that advocate it. If we are going to appeal to the masses then we should do it.

[slim]

Also, how can you say they have really achieved.

I know of a Stalinist group in the UK that is ready to start a revolution if it wanted to. They are completely ready but are waiting for the right time.

As an anarchist you cannot allow this authoritarian takeover. They worship the "One Mind" for goodness sake.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2005, 03:36 PM
Not a lot i wouldnt imagine. Many people have no idea what an anarchist really is let alone know about the groups that advocate it. If we are going to appeal to the masses then we should do it.
What you imagine, and what is reality are two different things. The anarchist movement is active in many political struggles. The G8 defiance has been created by anarchists. Dissent is a far reaching activist organisation. The local groups have managed to bring in hundreds of young people.

Further, most people don't know what capitalism is, let alone any alternatives to it.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2005, 03:52 PM
Also, how can you say they have really achieved.
What?


I know of a Stalinist group in the UK that is ready to start a revolution if it wanted to. They are completely ready but are waiting for the right time.

We are all waiting for the right time. It's called fighting for class consciousness. This group you know of are no closer to creating a mass working class struggle as the Labour party. No matter what rhetoric they may spout.

[The Feral Underclass]

From your website:


1. Scrap the British constitution and replace it with a new one made by a provisional government consisting of MPs and HRA members.

What will this constitution be? In order to create a "provisional government" you have to get rid of the one we have now. How do you intend on doing that?


2. The provisional government will oversee the elections which for the first time in history will include a choice of ideology (capitalism, marxism, communism etc).

There's absolutely no cohesion to this. It's makes no political [common] sense.

Let me ask you a question: What do you actually want society to be?


Imperial Brotherhood, prestigious members from the open volunteers and some from other groups. Members of this unit will have a better position in the provisional government.

How do you think creating this kind of hierarchy will change society for the better? How does the working class fit into all this?

[bunk]

The problem with the Anarchist movement in Britain is getting the three federation sto merge and form a new federation. This would mean the existing federations couldn't be part of the international of their respective federation but it would make Anarchism a serious force.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 12:24 PM
The problem with the Anarchist movement in Britain is getting the three federation sto merge and form a new federation. This would mean the existing federations couldn't be part of the international of their respective federation but it would make Anarchism a serious force.
Class War have no desire to form a co-alition with AFed or SolFed as far as I'm aware and the discussion that the AF and SF have with each other, as far as I've seen on libcom.org are never that serious.

Pretty stupid really. The differences aren't even that big and if we followed the community direct action idea then I think we could find some cohesion.

[farleft]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2005, 02:52 PM
Also, how can you say they have really achieved.

I know of a Stalinist group in the UK that is ready to start a revolution if it wanted to. They are completely ready but are waiting for the right time.

As an anarchist you cannot allow this authoritarian takeover. They worship the "One Mind" for goodness sake.
Such as who?

[slim]

Anarchist tension,

Firstly, the G8 defiance may or may not have been started by anarchists. Many of the people involved in that protest are not anarchists in the main federations. The impact of make poverty history has had a great affect and the cause in general is supported by the people. For anarchy to claim dominance in the situation would be untrue.

Secondly, i was asking what has the anarchist federations achieved?

Thirdly, the ones who worship the one mind are authoritarian. They do not want class support as much as anarchists do. They would be happy with a coup.

To your next post, judging by the language i have used and my anarchist disposition, how do you think we are going to install a provisional government?

I want society to be free. I want the people to be able to decide how to run their lives. I want my children to grow up in a non-capitalist society. I want for people to be able to vote for what ideoloogy they want to have. They will be educated in the various ideological choices proposed by the provisional government.

The provisional government itself will be made up of MPs who wish to serve the new administration, OVs who wish to serve and IB members who wish to serve. Theoretically this could be the whole country. All Members of the Provisional Government (MPGs for convenience) will be of equal status and will democratically vote for a speaker, scribe and for members of any duty required at the time. There will be no vendettas against fleeing officials and troops.

The open volunteers are the working class. Its in the name, anyone can join them. The Imperial Brotherhood is a tactical unit that will concentrate the veterans and dependable fighters in a force that can face opposition and support OV units. It is not a hierarchy, it is a reward for those who put themselves forward. The provisional government will be very large in comparison to now and it will be more of a debating tool. After a constitution is decided on, then they can either go into the civil service, enter a regular job, join the armed forces or can try and gain office as any other member of society can.

Josh,

That is one aim. When they see us active, they will know to follow in the fight against tyranny. We do not need political cohesion, that is the point of the provisional government- to debate and argue problems that exist and set up a modern constitution for them.

Farleft,

This is just one organisation i have heard of. They have a cell structure and I couldnt get hold of their name because of its secrecy. All I know is that they have HQ in Exeter where the one mind did lectures in the early nineties at a university before leading his die hard supporters to fight for "communism" in the Balkans. in the mid-nineties. The branch that I...contacted said that their unit was ready and waiting for the signal for a war on the British government. I am against this organisation.

On a final note. We will win. Not because of superior forces, tactics, weapons or numbers but because we will have the moral force. We will be fighting tyranny, corruption and oppression. All who oppose us, support these ideals and will not be favoured by society.

[anomaly]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2005, 12:42 PM
Hello,

The time for the revolutionary struggle in Europe will come. Obviously i must be careful how i word such things.

The existing groups in the UK are too busy with their own structure to worry about the people. We will be the first proper group to exist in the UK. If you want to join then you can join either political or activist branches. Take a look here:

www.freewebs.com/humanrightsassociation

This should be adequate and has my link if you wish to know more. The site is only a brief outline and may have some innaccurate/ underexplained sentences.

Do Chara de Geo.
Are you taking about some kind of armed struggle here, slim, or some kind of interest group?

[slim]

Armed struggle would be preffereable.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 03:56 PM
For anarchy to claim dominance in the situation would be untrue.
I never claimed that it had. Nor does the anarchist movement. However, we have created the most militant and defiant organisation of people to challange the G8.


Secondly, i was asking what has the anarchist federations achieved?

In terms of what?


how do you think we are going to install a provisional government?

No anarchist should be talking about installing "provisional governments."


I want society to be free.

Creating a "government" is not going to achieve that.


I want the people to be able to decide how to run their lives.

You can't have a "provisional government" which organises society and have people "running their lives" at the same time.


I want for people to be able to vote for what ideoloogy they want to have.

Why?


They will be educated in the various ideological choices proposed by the provisional government.

This government shouldn't exist in the first place. Voting for "ideologies" doesn't make any sense? What do you think will come of this?

You talk with emotion, which is fine, but it has to be back up with a materialist outlook on society. We all want people to be free, but free in what context?

I want communism? What do you want?


The provisional government itself will be made up of MPs who wish to serve the new administration,

The administration of society should be by the workers, not politicians.


All Members of the Provisional Government (MPGs for convenience) will be of equal status and will democratically vote for a speaker, scribe and for members of any duty required at the time.

This top down approach will not create equality. A post revolutionary society should be organised "from the base to the summit" and from "the circumference to the center."

Communities should determine their communities and federate into the middle. community councils to Local assemblies to regional assemblies to national assemblies if neccessary wtih an international assembly if that is necessary with locally elected and recallable delegates. These assemblies should act as administrative bodies only and should dispand when not necessary.

What you are talking about is creating a government which has members who dictate the administration of society to those underneath? That's not acceptable.


The open volunteers are the working class. Its in the name, anyone can join them. The Imperial Brotherhood is a tactical unit that will concentrate the veterans and dependable fighters in a force that can face opposition and support OV units. It is not a hierarchy, it is a reward for those who put themselves forward. The provisional government will be very large in comparison to now and it will be more of a debating tool. After a constitution is decided on, then they can either go into the civil service, enter a regular job, join the armed forces or can try and gain office as any other member of society can.

This seems more like a fantasy you have hatched in your imagination rather than a viable means to creating an equal or anarchist society. I would suggest you look at the RevLeft Archive (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=29944) and follow the links in the beginners section.


Armed struggle would be preffereable.

Why?

[slim]

I dont think you understand what I am saying.

You have dissected my post as a whole and micro analysed every detail so the message is different. Read it all as a whole. You arent even reading whole sentences.


The provisional government itself will be made up of MPs who wish to serve the new administration,



The administration of society should be by the workers, not politicians.

This is one example of your innacuracy. Notice the comma. The rest of the sentence explains that the workers are involved more than the politicians. I dont expect there to be too many politicians willing to serve but any would be happily accepted.

Another major point. The biggest point you have failed to observe. It is not "top down". Its a worker's revolution. The provisional government handles the running of the state whilst it sorts itself out afterwards.

It is a natural requirement to have some sort of leadership after such an incident or a dictatorship could emerge from the turmoil.


I dont even need to debate with you. Every point you have made is invalid and not worth answering really.

If you have anything constructive and debatable to say then I'm all ears.

[anomaly]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2005, 02:44 PM
Armed struggle would be preffereable.
If you ever begin such a struggle in the UK, perhaps I can sometime in the future cross the pond and join you. Until then, best of luck, comrade.

[slim]

The ranks will always be open comrade.

*Red Salute*

[bunk]

Your aim is 2007 like you said earlier when you joined this site? Seems a bit optimistic and a little silly.

[slim]

It is good timing. I have built loyal support for the past two years, am gaining national support now and in th enext two years the aim will be to prepare those who wish to fight in the struggle. I have written a kind of "green book" for recruits telling them how to resist interrogation, fight using different tactics and it is a basically a general handbook. It will reach circulation nearer to the time.

2007 is when we begin the actual feat but we have two years to prepare. More than enough time. Look into history and you can see great things done with great planning on a limited time scale.

Optimism is important. As for being a little silly- we'll see, when we march through Whitehall lol.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2005, 04:52 PM
You have dissected my post as a whole and micro analysed every detail so the message is different. Read it all as a whole. You arent even reading whole sentences.
I read what you said, and I responded to the points I wanted to respond to.


This is one example of your inaccuracy. Notice the comma. The rest of the sentence explains that the workers are involved more than the politicians.

No it doesn't. It explains how a group of MP's and various other titles administrate society.


Another major point. The biggest point you have failed to observe. It is not "top down". Its a worker's revolution. The provisional government handles the running of the state whilst it sorts itself out afterwards.

Karl Marx has beat you to it I'm afraid. About 150 years ago. It's not new, it's very old and in fact has failed.


It is a natural requirement to have some sort of leadership after such an incident or a dictatorship could emerge from the turmoil.

History has proven that this "requirement" of leadership is precisely what allows a dictatorship to emerge.

May I ask how this has anything to do with anarchism or "anarchy"?


I don’t even need to debate with you. Every point you have made is invalid and not worth answering really.

I think what I have said or asked is completely valid, and if you can't explain yourself clearly to me, how on earth do you expect to do it with members of the working class?


If you have anything constructive and debatable to say then I'm all ears.

I'm simply trying to allow you the opportunity to actually think about what you are saying. At the moment it is nothing but the repetition of old Marxist idea's with some little fantasy thrown in for good measure.

I would like to know why you believe what you are saying?

[slim]

Firstly, the "various other titles" running society are the workers. It is clearly stated.

I have never actually read Marx and know little of his ideas so the fact that this is apparantly Marxist is quite coincidental.

History cannot apply in this situation. The social scene is different now and the people would be able to act against a government assuming control especially as one of our goals is to reduce the power of the government. A population after a revolution will teach the provisional government one thing: the state was established by the people and can be disestablished by them if they are betrayed. Also, history cannot apply because this form of government has never existed.

As for anarchy, it uses anarchist tactics and is for liberatarianism. It is not a solely anarchist movement though. It is just the ideology it would be most advantageous with associating with.

I would like to answer your questions but they are not phrased in a very truthful way. Many of the points you made earlier were partial truths of my statements but it was selective.

Thank you for your questinos, I hope I didnt offend you.

I believe what I am saying because of the position our state is currently in. The government is gradually adopting more dictatorial measures that many of the people never hear about because the news is propagandist. Acts like the newly proposed "Serious Organised Crime and Police Bill" will spell an end to the freedom to protest. Groups like animal rights and fathers for justice will be hard hit.

Our people are in danger of losing their freedoms. Soon it may be too late to act. The proposed ID cards and ID database, the Joint Parliamentary Committee on Human Rights is a not addressing the issues and allowing these acts, ASBOs allow organisations to gain favour above individuals and some protestors receive them.

Basically, civil rights campaigners and protestors will face the new trouble of being called "terrorist". When that happens, it will be too late.

That is why our movement exists. To provide security for the people against those who are paid to do it but fail to do so.

We are facing a true danger. We will address it.

[The Feral Underclass]

I think you should just join an organisation that already exists.

[slim]

I have joined many but none of them act as they should. Many do not see the threat and many are too afraid to act in the way that is necessary to preserve the freedoms of the people. Some are just groups of "so called anarchists" and "anarchist wannabees" who see the name as cool rather than actually doing anything.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2005, 01:54 PM
I have joined many but none of them act as they should.
From what you have said in this thread and indeed this particular post leads me to believe that you have spent no time in a wider political organisation.


Many do not see the threat and many are too afraid to act in the way that is necessary to preserve the freedoms of the people.

I think it's extremly arrogant that you can assert such a thing when it is clear you have very little experience with organisations, the opinions of these organisations or the members of these organisations.

What is this threat you are talking about which the communist movement as a whole is missing?


Some are just groups of "so called anarchists" and "anarchist wannabees" who see the name as cool rather than actually doing anything.

What groups would these be?

[anomaly]

Slim, you seem to want to create a parliamentary structure, a democratic government. Have you considered constructing communism after your revolution? The provisional government idea seems perhaps neccesary with an area so large as the UK, so I support that. Also, will you be including Northern Ireland in this struggle? What about Ireland itself?

Basically, what is the aim of the revolution? Aanrchism? Democratic republic? Are you committed to socialism, or communism? Or, are you going to do as Marcos of the Zapatistas did, and let the people decide everything? Will they simply vote on whether they want to have communism? I suggest my idea of localized revolution to you. Begin by securing one city, making it self-sufficient, and setting up a commune there. After that, gain new recruits, and spread the revolution. This way groups independent of yours who have grown favorable to communism can have their own local revolution, and construct their own commune. What do you think of such an idea?

A lot of questions, I know. I apologize in advance. Here, let's make this easier. Here's my questions for you. Read the above, of course, but respond to only these.

Are you definitely going to create a government? Or are you trying to create anarchism?

Will this government, if you have one, be a democratic republic? Or will the people simply choose their own ideology, economy, and government themselves (total democracy)?

Will you include Northern Ireland? Ireland?

Are you committed to any one ideology?

Would you consider using my idea of localized revolution, and set up numerous communes?

[slim]

I will ignore AT because he doesnt seem to understand what is going on. The threat is authoritarian capitalism.

Anomoly,

Communism is a possiblility because of the crude idoeological vote I have considered. Maybe a better system for choosing ideology will arrive and this will remain one of the group's goals. I am a supproter of non-capitalism and will support communism and leftism in general in the vote.

As for Ireland. I feel that Northern Ireland should be an independent state with its own government elected by the people. I dislike the fact that many of the northern ministers have english accents and it is a horrid reminder of colonialism. England will still have an alliance with them but they will be free to persue their own political path. If they wish they can have a similar election after the trouble in England has died down. As for the Republic, I will try to make a strong alliance with them as Ireland holds my roots and as a decendent of Michael Collins they should be willing to listen.

I will not enforce my will on the people and will probably persue the course of letting the poeple decide. The aim of the revolution is to remove capitalism and the corruption that goes with it.

Your idea of localised revolution is similar to my own. It will be easy for our group to take London due to the locality and our options for expansion will be easier. With the nearby Channel Tunnel we could also starve Britain's economy and trade of fast commmercial goods. They will probably resort to Southampton with their primative Imperialist trade routes. We will crush them either way and have already drawn plans for storming the local barracks and stealing their equipment. I like your idea and would like to hear more of it as my own plans are probalby considered archaic.

As for the more demanded questions:

We will create a provisional government to be disbanded when our mission is complete. The people will decide on whether to have a government or not. I am personally hoping for a small government to oversee the regions. The government should never again be able to crush its own people with authoritarian policies.

Total democracy. I will do what the people ask of me.

The Ireland issue is one that I have great personal interest and consideration. I have read muc hof Irish history and will always look after the welfare of my family. As such I will give them the same choices as England. This also rises questions about Scotland and Wales, I hope that they join us also.

I am not commited to any one ideology. I see many as valid and I use this to my advantage. I will view most ideologies equally in the vote and I can see other people's point of view very easily. I am leftist and liberatarian but I am open to opinion. My will is not easily changed however and I will not sell out to an ideology that offers me what I want. The people are always my first priority.

I would consider your idea with more information and planning. I currently have groups set up in strategic locations so that different independent areas could be set up and if one area is captured or subjected by the dictatorial armies of the state then another area can retaliate and smash them.

Thank you for the questins. May they keep coming to strengthen the plans for the future of freedom.

[anomaly]

Let me try to tell you more in detail about my idea of localized revolution. You seem to have a basic construct set up, and that is very good. I propose that instead of having a revolution on the entire island, instead capture strategic locations and set up communes for economic production. Establish trade between the various communes, thus establishing what I call a trade network. As you seem to realize, for your idea, London is essential. I prefer this idea, with a large amount of revolutionaries behind you, in addition to preestabluished proletarian networks of support for each localized revolution. This is quite at odds to your idea of 'total democracy' (although you'd have the people behind you in each localized revolution). I suggest you think geologically, and, atleast for the time being, focus on your island, not Ireland (or Northern Ireland). The reason I oppose your democratic measures is that the British people have long had and supported capitalism, so I am skeptical of how much support they'd have for communism. But, you're the Briton, not me. If you think they'd support something non-capitalist, go ahead with your democratic measures, but only after we have all of Britain liberated. Until then, I strongly suggest my localized ideas, and the connecting of these communes with a network for purposes of trade. How many areas can you liberate at one time? The more, the better. And if you can liberate an entire territory at once, all the better, as self-sufficiency can then be attained. Your revolution seems rather promising, comrade (atleast from my distanced view...I'm in the States, you're in Britain, so if you could comment on the amount of support you have, that'd be nice.).

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2005, 05:32 PM
I will ignore AT because he doesnt seem to understand what is going on. The threat is authoritarian capitalism.
On the contrary, it seems to be you who has absolutely no idea what you're talking about. If you make claims about existing political organisations, your response when asked to prove it can't be "I’m going to ignore you."

Your assertions are wrong, misguided and ignorant and until you show me otherwise no one should take you or your vague incoherent disguised reformist bullshit of an organisation seriously.

[slim]

The Anarchist Federation hasnt responded to my application for months now. Even if they reject my application they could at least tell me.

I wrote emails to Surrey Anarchy, Black Cross, Brighton Anarchy and several other groups regarding my group which at the time I told them nothing of the plan. As respective groups they should be able to respond to other groups to build alliances and such. This uncooperative attitude has shown me what these groups are like.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2005, 02:10 PM
The Anarchist Federation hasnt responded to my application for months now. Even if they reject my application they could at least tell me.

I wrote emails to Surrey Anarchy, Black Cross, Brighton Anarchy and several other groups regarding my group which at the time I told them nothing of the plan. As respective groups they should be able to respond to other groups to build alliances and such. This uncooperative attitude has shown me what these groups are like.
Why would they take your organisation seriously. They won't agree with your politics, vague and incoherent as they are.

You claim to not understand communism and you sure as hell don't get anarchism. You need to understand what's going on before you can make judgments about what to do.

[slim]

I dont believe it. You didnt read my full post again.

They dont know my "vague" politics and ideas because I didnt tell them. Isnt that in the post I just wrote? Yes. Your making a baseless argument.

As for claiming not to understand communism. That is also a twisted piece of information. I said i wasnt a communist. Does that mean i said i didnt understand? No.

I understand anarchy and minarchy.

I understand the situation and I have not "made judgements". I have presented some facts for you to either accept or to refuse. By hiding what I present from this forum is a crime against free speech and free will. People deserve the facts so they can make their own minds up instead of some admin guy posting what he wants them to see.

[The Feral Underclass]

You contacted various anarchist groups with the proposition of creating an alliance? Then you expect them to respond. Respond to what?

I'm sorry, but I still maintain, and I invite anyone else to read your website, that your proposels are vague and incoherent.

Your obviously have no idea what communism is, nor do you understand what anarchism is. This is clear from your posts and from your bloody website!


By hiding what I present from this forum is a crime against free speech and free will.

Don't be ridiculous. I have not stopped you from saying anything you like. Please continue to make a fool of yourself.

[RedAnarchist]

Slim, TAT is one of our most prominent members. You could say he's like a Redstar2000 of Anarchism. He has even lived in a commune - he understands Anarchism. You are only proving him right, although you know what you need to do to prove him wrong. You need to understand what you belive in. I dont claim to understand Anarchism or even Communism fully, and therefore i also need to learn more.

[slim]

On the topic of creating an alliance with other groups. I expected a reply for negotiations to begin.

My posts must be seen as vague. It would be ill-advised to reveal all details on a site that could be watched by authorities.

My group is neither anarchist, communist or any other specific ideology. We welcome all creeds. We are anti-capitalists. We will fight capitalism with a view towards the left.

The last bit was a bit overreactive. lol. However, it has its truths. I will stop asking for you to put up the link in the organisations section but I disagree that one person can control that priviledge. It is not very communal to have positions of uncontested authority. I know you are a good person but it would be easy for someone in your position to block me.

My group is a real group. It will do what it has to do. It is a democratic group- probably why it seems so incoherent- but it works perfectly together. Better decisions can be made by more people. By joining this group you will have the ability to change some of its policies further left. That is why I am advocating it on this site, because I prefer leftist support. Most of my support is leftist but I will need more for such an action.

www.freewebs.com/humanrightsassociation

This site is still a bit basic and if there are any improvements to be made, please feel free to criticise. Cheers.

[email protected]

Do chara de geo.

[anomaly]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2005, 01:40 PM
Slim, TAT is one of our most prominent members. You could say he's like a Redstar2000 of Anarchism. He has even lived in a commune - he understands Anarchism. You are only proving him right, although you know what you need to do to prove him wrong. You need to understand what you belive in. I dont claim to understand Anarchism or even Communism fully, and therefore i also need to learn more.
TAT lived in a commune? where? When? This is quite interesting. I hope, TAT, that you'll perhaps tell me of some of your experiences.

As for slim's mission being 'vague', well, perhaps it is just vague enough to work. During a revolution, a group must form alliances. Forming alliances does not include setting a specific ideology for his movement or anything like that. Think of its being vague as a positive sign. The people have apparently not made up their minds, so they can be influenced. Slim, I think it is wise of you to officially reject the label of communist, or any label for that matter. To gain the greatest amount of support, you should simply call yourself a 'liberator'. I do hope, however, that you will allow communes to exist in Britain. I'd love to chat with you, slim, on possibilities for post-revolution Britain.

Comrades, we should be supportive of slim and his taking action to liberate Britain. TAT, perhaps you can indulge yourself in constructive criticism rather than calling slim a 'fool'. tell him what he's doing wrong, in your opinion, and tell him how he should improve it.

[The Feral Underclass]

The reason I got so "annoyed" is the fact that Slim attacks organisations he has absolutly no idea about. His criticisms are completely unfair and unfounded and I have no interest in trying to persuae this person, the errors of his ways.

The first thing he needs to do is learn what Marxism and anarchism are? Before he starts judging the entire communist movement.

[slim]

I never judged the entire communist movement. I said that of the many anarchist groups that I have contacted in the UK they now seem to be unreliable in achieving their ultimate goal. Revolution.

Thank you for your suggestions anomoly, I will see that they are considered.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2005, 11:40 AM
they now seem to be unreliable in achieving their ultimate goal. Revolution.
Why?

[slim]

They do not have the support or the vigour neccessary. They do not appeal to many people and are little known. Sorry, they just dont have what it takes. If by joining I could help them change this image then I would but they didnt seem to care.

[viva le revolution]

My suggestion to all would be: Never underestimate personal initiative in the struggle.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2005, 12:01 PM
They do not have the support or the vigour neccessary.
No revolutionary organisation has the support necessary to start a revolution. And what do you mean by vigour?


They do not appeal to many people

This may be true, but in what way do they not appeal?


and are little known.

This is your problem.

You don't join organisaitons because of their popularity, you join them because you agree with their principles and believe in their ideology.


Sorry, they just dont have what it takes.

I don't think you understand what it means to have "what it takes."

In your mind, what would that be?


If by joining I could help them change this image then I would but they didnt seem to care.

What did you actually say to these groups?

[slim]

By vigour I mean, they do not have the sort of activity levels that can attract any possible recruits. I have never seen an anarchist or revolutionary group in any UK newspaper.

They do not appeal because they are very "cultish". They do not associate with the community very much. In my area I have never seen any kind of anarchist fair, stall or recruitment drive. One related question to this bit. The equilabris, why has it replaced the "A" of anarchy? My guess is that they dont want wannabees, pretenders and fashion accessories associated with them. However, I dont know many people who have noticed the change of logo. Says a lot about local recognition of anarchy.

Yes, ideology is important but so is the ability to attract new members and actually start some sort of campaign.

"What it takes", they cannot achieve their goals in the forseeable future.


I didnt say anything contraversial. I said that I wasforming my own group for my local area and would like to co-operate with them for future projects basically. No replies at all.

The state of political groups like these in the UK is demoralising. Hearing news of any projects in the papers would be nice. I cannot trust them to do anything useful anymore.

[slim]

Originally posted by viva le [email protected] 24 2005, 11:54 AM
My suggestion to all would be: Never underestimate personal initiative in the struggle.
Amen to that.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2005, 02:04 PM
By vigour I mean, they do not have the sort of activity levels that can attract any possible recruits.
To some extent this is true, but as I said earlier, the anarchist movement or anarchist groups are relatively small and the Anarchist Federation is only beginning to come out of the "propaganda" group that has been for some time.

These things take time and effort. You cannot expect things to suddenly happen without work being put into it, and work is being put into it. I'm sorry that you cannot see that or aren't apart of it, but that doesn't mean it isn't there.


I have never seen an anarchist or revolutionary group in any UK newspaper.

UK newspapers are controlled by those we oppose. Why would papers owned by capitalists advertise organisations like the Anarchist Federation.

Anarchism stands to smash their system of control. They want to destroy us, not advertise us.

The ruling class controls the media.


They do not appeal because they are very "cultish".

This is sometimes true, but I think if you look at the individualist movement over the last ten years and Dissent! you can clearly see that the anarchist movement has attempted, with great success, to be as open and transparent as possible.


They do not associate with the community very much.

Not as a groups, no. This is a debate I am trying to have within the Anarchist Federation at the moment, and if you read my article in this copy of Organise! I have argued that the anarchist movement as a solid group should become more active within communities in terms of building networks of direct action.

However, individual anarchists, and individual members of anarchist groups are heavily involved in local and national campaigns and to say otherwise just isn't true.

Also, if you look at the co-operative movement and the social centres around the country, you can see that anarchist initiative have created community spaces and projects for working class people. A prime example being the Sumac centre in Nottingham.


In my area I have never seen any kind of anarchist fair, stall or recruitment drive.

As I originally said in my first post in this thread, there has to be levels to creating a movement. Everything cannot happen at once. Groups and organisations have to build confidence. Although I admit, and this is a criticism that has already been raised, there should be more happening in terms of recruitment and I think post-dissent we will see a massive increase in coherent and organised anarchist initiatives.


Yes, ideology is important but so is the ability to attract new members and actually start some sort of campaign.

Agreed, but you have to start with ideology and work upwards. You are far too eager to have everything at once without taking time to understand the process. You cannot have everything at once. You cannot expect a revolution to just happen because you have created a campaign or political group.


"What it takes", they cannot achieve their goals in the forseeable future.

No revolutionary organisation can.


I didn’t say anything contraversial. I said that I wasforming my own group for my local area and would like to co-operate with them for future projects basically. No replies at all.

No anarchist group would want to associate with an organisation, which holds the principles you, hold.


The state of political groups like these in the UK is demoralising.

Why?

Are you going to the G8? Are you involved in any local or national campaigns? The state or these organisations is not being left alone. It is not the way the members want them to be. "Debate is progress" and we have to continue to debate and organise in order to build.


Hearing news of any projects in the papers would be nice.

You need to go on these organisations websites and get their periodicals, not look in papers like the Sun, because you aren't going to find anything in them. These papers are pro-capitalist.


I cannot trust them to do anything useful anymore.

Because they didn't reply to your emails?

Your criticisms are valid, but they are not entirely educated.

[slim]

I agree, they are not educated arguments but there is some truth in them.

As for revolution not being possible in the forseeable future. Why not? You will be surprised by how fast things escalate. Im not rushing, Im just getting ready in time.

"No anarchist group would want to associate with an organisation, which holds the principles you, hold."

Thats the worst part, they dont know any of my group's views. I just told them that a new group is forming.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2005, 02:35 PM
As for revolution not being possible in the forseeable future. Why not? You will be surprised by how fast things escalate. Im not rushing, Im just getting ready in time.
The material conditions in society are simply not at a point where working class people can or want to become class conscious of the situation around them.

Society at present, especially in the UK, is imploding, not exploding. In order to have a revolution you have to have the working class, conscious of capitalism how to change, active and organised and that, unfortunatly is no where near the situation at the moment.


Thats the worst part, they dont know any of my group's views. I just told them that a new group is forming.

That's regretable then, but humans do make mistakes. If you are still interested in joining the Anarchist Federation, PM me and give me your details.

[anomaly]

"If you are still interested in joining the Anarchist Federation, PM me and give me your details. "

What exactly will your federation do for slim? You said it yourself that people are not ready for communism in Britain. Slim is attempting to create revolutionary conditions, much as happened in the Cuban Revolution. And so, slim must attempt to gather popular support, and establish support networks of the very people he will be liberating, and very importantly, encourage some of these people to arm themselves and join in the revolution. Right now, slim must build alliances, and try to gain some people's favor. How will joing an anarchist federation accomplish his task? How will becoming an 'official' anarchist help him in gathering public support? You and I may not like it, but the average person just doesn't think too highly of anarchists. It seems to me that slim officially becoming an anarchist would be fodder for the Government.

Also, TAT, can you tell me about how you lived on a commune possibly?

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2005, 07:10 AM
"If you are still interested in joining the Anarchist Federation, PM me and give me your details. "

What exactly will your federation do for slim? You said it yourself that people are not ready for communism in Britain.
I think you've not really been paying attention to what I've been saying. In spite of the fact that the material conditions for a revolution are not here, we still need a revolutionary organisation to propagate the ideal and attempt to organise in preparation.

If Slim really felt passionately about anarchism then anarchist federation will offer him the opportunity to enter into the debate about how to develop and progress. He will be involved in shaping the anarchist movement and helping it grow.

Being apart of an organisation like the AF will offer him a network of support which is not only necessary on an activist level but on a personal level. Being apart of an organisation and having that support gives you confidence in yourself and your beliefs. Having others to talk to and take ideas from can be inspirational.


Slim is attempting to create revolutionary conditions

But this is precisely what the anarchist federation and indeed every other revolutionary organisation that exists is attempting to achieve. |Do we really need another one?


And so, slim must attempt to gather popular support, and establish support networks of the very people he will be liberating

So is the anarchist federation, but the debate is how? What is the current analysis of society and how do we as an organisation best organise to stand up against what is happening?

The debate already exists.


and very importantly, encourage some of these people to arm themselves and join in the revolution.

Join in what revolution?

A small group of people storming the houses of parliament or blowing up police stations is not a revolution.

A revolution must come directly out of the self-struggle of the working class. A revolution will be the ultimate conclusion to years of fighting. A revolution will happen when the working class, having fought and failed, stand up as a united whole and say we will take control of our communities and our "factories".

Going into communities and suggesting the people "arm" themselves right now will either get you arrested or laughed at, or both.


Right now, slim must build alliances, and try to gain some people's favor.

No revolutionary communist organisation is going to get involved in what Slim has proposed.


How will joing an anarchist federation accomplish his task?

It won't. He would join as an individual because he agreed with the aims and principles and because he wanted to create an anarchist-communist society.


How will becoming an 'official' anarchist help him in gathering public support?

It won't. If he has good ideas and is dedicated he may be able to help gain the support of the working class for the anarchist federation.


You and I may not like it, but the average person just doesn't think too highly of anarchists.

The "average" person doesn’t think too highly of anything let alone an alternative ideology. It's called alienation.

Most people don't know what anarchism is, but they also have little interest in politics in general. The only way to create struggle against capitalism and the state is to agitate in communities and build direct action networks that directly challenge the dereliction and implosion of communities.


It seems to me that slim officially becoming an anarchist would be fodder for the Government.

Considering the anarchism rejects organised centres of power like governments he suggests, I'm quite certain it would.


Also, TAT, can you tell me about how you lived on a commune possibly?

What do you want to know?

[slim]

I am a student of war. I know how to stir revolutionary ideals into people. It is ground level stuff that depends on the situation so it cannot be preplanned to the sort of "ideological" extent. Wew can discuss tactics, strategy and moral issues but there is no way to actually discuss people's minds. They are wonderfully unique and cannot be misjudged. The revolution will happen and I invite you all to be there. If it doesnt happen as you predict then stay at home and watch us fall but the more likely case of victory looms and whether you are critical now I will not hold it against you.

Thank you for all your points. If you have more then feel free to add them here. I will consult my comrades on the issues put forward.

Do chara de geo. Slan.

[anomaly]

TAT, perhaps you should simply be ready to aid slim's revolution, and be ready to help slim and others in Britain should the revolution prove successful. I simply do not think it would be good for slim's public image if he officially called his revolution 'anarchist'. He should cite more specific injustices than just capitalism, for example, point out the tyrannical nature of the 'democratic' system Britain has, among other things. (should a true 'revolution', as you define it, come about). This leads me to ask, I suppose you oppose guerrilla groups?

Also, TAT, I have spoken to slim previously about localized revolution, where he would conduct revolution and set up a commune in one city, perhaps, or one district in Britain, rather than conduct war in Britain in one mass revolution. What do you think of such a localized revolution? Slim could easily contact the peasantry (if any exists in Britain), farmers, and workers of Britain in local areas to gather support. Uniting a community would be far easier than uniting a nation.

As for specific question about your life on a commune, well, where was this commune? Does it still exist today? How would you characterize everyday life? Was it a very hard life, or a rather good life? How large was it?

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2005, 06:48 AM
TAT, perhaps you should simply be ready to aid slim's revolution
It shouldn't be Slim's revolution, it sould be the workers revolution!


and be ready to help slim and others in Britain should the revolution prove successful.

At the point of revolution in this country I will be more than prepared to do what is necessary to help, but that is a long way off and Slim does not hold an alternative.


I simply do not think it would be good for slim's public image if he officially called his revolution 'anarchist'.

I don't think you understand the nature of a revolution? Of course the Anarchist Federation does not exist to make Slim's public image better.

I hope that when a revolution happens, it won't be called an anarchist revolution but a workers revolution; a unity of millions of workers using libertarian means to organise and fight.

Anyway, you're assuming that Slim has some public image in the first place, and that isn't the case is it.


He should cite more specific injustices than just capitalism, for example, point out the tyrannical nature of the 'democratic' system Britain has, among other things.

But you will find that these things are directly linked to capitalism and unless you have an understanding of what capitalism is, you will find it increasinly difficult to make any coherent sense when trying to explain the "tyrannical natre of the democratic system."

Why and how does it exist in the first place?


This leads me to ask, I suppose you oppose guerrilla groups?

In the present situation yes. You cannot create groups seperate to the working class in order to fight on their behalf, especially in the current society where you will simply be branded as terrorists, because, for intents and purposes, that's what you are.


Also, TAT, I have spoken to slim previously about localized revolution, where he would conduct revolution and set up a commune in one city, perhaps, or one district in Britain, rather than conduct war in Britain in one mass revolution.

And what do Slims parents think about this?

What is a "localised revolution"? What does it involve?


Slim could easily contact the peasantry (if any exists in Britain), farmers, and workers of Britain in local areas to gather support. Uniting a community would be far easier than uniting a nation.

I think you will find it isn't at all that easy and this is why debate continues to exist within the anarchist movement.


As for specific question about your life on a commune, well, where was this commune? Does it still exist today? How would you characterize everyday life? Was it a very hard life, or a rather good life? How large was it?

The commune was in East Yorkshire and it still exists. Our objective was to prepare each other to work in Africa for 6 months. Our day to day life was organised by ourselves, be in fundraising, studies or responsability areas which were divided. It wasn't particulaly hard and we had a relativly good life. When I was there, there was a bout 85 people. It is now about 71.

[slim]

Dont get all politically correct. He was just using the term to make it easier to read. After all the revolutions in Russia and recently in South America bore this name.

Not an alternative? Its better than doing nothing, is achievable and will solve the problem.

Everyone has a public image. Its what people think of you. Maybe you dont go out a lot but I like to think that people have opinions of me.

Capitalism is caused by the acceptance of a ruling class through the use of ignorance and brainwashing. Our group will end it.

I dont think you know what a guerilla group is. It is supported by the masses. As for the word terrorist. It is a cappie term to divert the masses away from the real cause of the trouble and violence and onto a group of people.

What do my parents have to do with anything? Would you have asked Lenin or Che the same question or is it another example of cappie brainwashing- ageism. Another way to divert the true problems.

Localised revolution...Localised. Revolution.

The community debate is uneccessary. I have the means to gain the local support.

[The Feral Underclass]

You understand nothing of revolutionary politics silm.

[farleft]

I'd always join a leftist struggle, as long as it was a real decleration against the state and not just a protest, real armed struggle.
I live in the UK by the way.

[slim]

It will be a real revolution opposed to capitalism. As a person living in the UK i hope that you contribute towards this topic as it is directly involved with your future.

Do chara.

[anomaly]

TAT, you ask what localized revolution 'is', but I clearly explained it in my last post. I propose that slim try to gain control of a cty, and then attempt to create a self-sufficient commune in that city. To do this, he obviously needs the means of living readily available to him, which is why slim must organize a network of proletarian supporters (and do not make the mistake of alienating slim from the proletariat, or vis-versa, as I'm sure slim is a member of the same class), herders and farmers preferrably, in order to make sure subsistence is possible in the city. You say it shouldn't be 'slim's' revolution, but rather 'the people's', and slim correctly interpreted what I obviously meant. If it never becomes a people's revolution, slim will fail, and he is well aware of this. But any revolution needs a good leader, and we can hope that slim is a good leader.

TAT, as to the 'tyrannical system of the 'democratic' electoral system", the tyranny is blatantly obvious. The same tyranny exists in every other 'democratic' state in the world. It is the tyranny of capitalism. The people cannot choose how they live, they can only choose, as Marx so whittingly put it "once, every few years, the people who will opress them (not an exact quote, to avoid reprimanding)".

The problem with your stance of simply 'opposing' slim and his idea of revolution is that you do not even weigh the possibility of slim's success. I personally think that any revolution in Britain will be extremely difficult, and it will be hard to gain public support, as I don't think the British people are at all ready for revolution. But what if I'm wrong, and slim's right? He lives in the UK, not I, so my opinion should be secondary to slim's own opinion. If he sees the possibility for revolution in his homeland, and the possibility of success, who am I to flatly oppose him, as you do? Do you live in the UK, TAT? If not, your opinion should also be secondary to slim's. The thing is, slim could be right. And if he is right, and revolution is successful, we, as his comrades, should lend him our full support, rather than saying "you understand nothing of revolutionary politics, slim".

[Guest]

silm- to be honest with you, your "organisation" seems to be a bit of a joke. You appear to have a hierarchial system in place , could be me reading this wong but that is not very anarchistic....Whats more I think you fail to understand anarchy and the principles.
Why are your trying to "recruit" people ? The aims of organizations should not be to recruit people but to build community strengths etc.....the fact an organisation exsists is because like minded people want to come together but you do not need to draw more people into it or "recruit" them......

[slim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 07:22 PM
silm- to be honest with you, your "organisation" seems to be a bit of a joke. You appear to have a hierarchial system in place , could be me reading this wong but that is not very anarchistic....Whats more I think you fail to understand anarchy and the principles.
Why are your trying to "recruit" people ? The aims of organizations should not be to recruit people but to build community strengths etc.....the fact an organisation exsists is because like minded people want to come together but you do not need to draw more people into it or "recruit" them......
Firstly, we are not anarchist. Secondly anarchists do not have organisations. We use a semi-democratic form of hierarchy for competence in the field.

We are not recruiting as much as raising awareness and gathering support, unlike our anarchist counterparts. We are gathering the solid dependable support we need to help the people make the choice between us and the capitalists. It will give the working class a trained group to help them fight for independence.

[bunk]

Firstly, we are not anarchist. Secondly anarchists do not have organisations. We use a semi-democratic form of hierarchy for competence in the field.

247 posts and still haven't cleared this one up in you're head? Poor you. :(
How can anyone take the rest of your post seriously when you say this? :rolleyes:

[slim]

We are not anarchist. Is this hard to comprehend?

Anarchists do not have organisations. FACT. They have federations.

My group uses a semi-democratic form of hierarchy to elect leaders in the field. Is this wrong? Would you rather have a full hierarchy where people are leaders for personal reasons without merit, maybe a wallet. Either way, a full hierarchy would make my group corrupt as it grows out of local influence. Perhaps you would prefer a system that is totally democratic and only popular people become leaders, regardless of competence- people have ways of using charisma to do this and get away with it.

I dont see how any of this is contradictory of any previous posts. I have never talked about my groups hierarchy befre. Not everyone in my group are anarchists; and anarchists are usually involved in federations. Three simple facts.

[bunk]

why have the cappies in your shindig?


Anarchists do not have organisations. FACT. They have federations.

The federation is still organized which can be called organization

[slim]

Capitalists are not people as we all assume. They are a slaver that can take control of a human being and turn them into something else. Therefore we cannot say that i am allowing capitalists in. What i am doing is getting rid of the system that allows the slaver to survive and free these people.

Sorry if it sounds very metaphorical but its the easiest way i could say it.

[slim]

Back to a more fundamental point in my argument; about UK anarchist groups being...well...crap.

i saw footage of a black bloc in Edinburugh as part of the G8 protests. They were a shambles. They let the media tear them apart on TV accusing them of being capitalists because they sold T-shirts and the black bloc lost a mini riot. in an interview on the march an anarchist was totally beaten. They asked what his motives were and he was stuttering and just walked off.

It was disgraceful. They had no discipline, drive, motivation or teachings. They were there for a fight with no terms.

This should never happen again. The anarchist cause took a battering because of the media exploiting some "anarchists" that should have been taught to be spokespeople but werent. No elected leaders or spokespeople. No wonder they lost. Never again.

[Dark Exodus]

So far the riot in Edinburgh has:

Attracted local hooligans looking for a fight, caused some damage to streets and parks, pissed of the lothian police and has again lowered the reputation of modern leftists.

[bunk]

they speak for themselves not the group. Why should everyone have toe a party line. It's difficult to have one person speak for another 50 people. When you have strict rules like that there will be internal dicvisions or you movement will corrupt.
Anyway the anarchists this week seem to have finally got the message not to let themselves be encircled.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41265000/jpg/_41265407_edinbaton300x220.jpg

[bolshevik butcher]

Whil this was no doubt just a small minoroty of protestors it was not good. This is going to make being a radical very difficult in eidburgh.

[bunk]

Today was excellent.....

[anomaly]

Slim, have you been out to the G8 protests? Perhaps you could take some of the more revolutionary protesters under your wing, and add to your group. Just a suggestion.

[slim]

I would like to but it is too far away.

I saw the news this morning. Its getting more radical but people are questioning motives and the media are having a field day tearing the argument apart. The groups need spokespeople.

[rise_up]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2005, 08:38 PM
Back to a more fundamental point in my argument; about UK anarchist groups being...well...crap.

i saw footage of a black bloc in Edinburugh as part of the G8 protests. They were a shambles. They let the media tear them apart on TV accusing them of being capitalists because they sold T-shirts and the black bloc lost a mini riot. in an interview on the march an anarchist was totally beaten. They asked what his motives were and he was stuttering and just walked off.

It was disgraceful. They had no discipline, drive, motivation or teachings. They were there for a fight with no terms.

This should never happen again. The anarchist cause took a battering because of the media exploiting some "anarchists" that should have been taught to be spokespeople but werent. No elected leaders or spokespeople. No wonder they lost. Never again.
you have a very good point.if they are to do anything properly the need discipline and a plan.or even to know why they are fighting.these guys know why they are there, but they don't have the guts/intelligence to get their reasons over to the media.if even one of them could explain to the media why they are there and what their doing,then maybe they could command some respect from us and even from the british public.

[bunk]

The guys who went smashing up random stuff are probably just a load of thugs. The Anarchists are today clashing with police and making blockades as was the plan
As an anarchist it's wrong to have someone else speak for you. I've seen an individual for Dissent on the BBc speaking for himself and his personal aims and reasons and he did well

[slim]

The main problem is with the thugs. The BBC is far more likely to air a supposed anarchist than a true one in terms of the fake stuttering and getting it wrong.

There must be a proper form of structure. I would even suggest that anarchists refuse to let the thugs join their marches. Perhaps true fighters (not just anarchists) should have some form of certificate to show that they are a true supporter in their group's beliefs and know how to fight in a disciplined manner.

Then the media would not have the real truth for sure and could be in legal trouble over issuing propaganda to the general public as they could claim some thugs to be anarchists.

[rise_up]

you are right.the local drunks and idiots have taken advantage of a political protest and started fighting, this has lead to the media to think that anyone who believes in anarchism or anything that they don't really understand is a police beating,car smashing psyhco.

[slim]

Another reason for our cause has been justified. A war that none of the people in the UK supported has now hit home in a series of bomb blasts.

Did those who have died support the war they have been caught up in?

Did those among the many wounded wish to find themselves in the same situation as many frontline soldiers?

Did we want to fight an invisible enemy on the whim of a few politicians with the side effect of handing them emergency powers?

The answer to all three of these questions is, NO.
The "democracy" we live in is not a just system. We want a true system that addresses the needs of the people.

The chief duty of a government is to protect its citizens. They have failed in this duty. We all saw it coming, yet the government did not. They are no longer even representative of their people as is their specification.

They have failed in their own system of government. We will not.

[bunk]

^The government is doing their best. They have put their emergency plans into action. There is n oway of preventing an attack like this.

[slim]

Yes there is. Its called diplomacy and consent.

[bunk]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 01:54 PM
Yes there is. Its called diplomacy and consent.
What the fuck are you on about? The best way to protect against terrorists would be to withdraw from Iraq and Afghanistan and pay reparations to every country we have damaged.

[slim]

Diplomacy- we shouldnt have been in there in the first place.

Consent- most of the people were against war but the pigs went ahead with it anyway.

[rise_up]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 01:23 PM
^The government is doing their best. They have put their emergency plans into action. There is n oway of preventing an attack like this.
i feel sorry for the fire fighters who have to deal with this. if they have to go into the underground it will be hard work,not only will they have to wear fire/hazmat kit ,they will have B.A equipment on (19.2kg,this stuffs not light) and if that wasn't hard enough they have to rescue people in all the chaos as well as avoid other bombs(if there are any left)
meanwhile the others have the cutters and rams and will have to cut up cars and stuff to help other people.

[bunk]

Wit hpeople just abandoning cars in the middle of the street the emergency jobs are that much harder. You're right, it's lucky that so far there have been no bombs to catch the emergency services in the aftermath.

[rise_up]

slightly off topic:
(i did my firefighting training a couple of weeks back,and we did it full kit with B.A equipment in a building we knew,we got round in about five minutes in day light and we were guided,then we did it in smoke (we couldn't seeand it took us twenty five minutes,we had to rescue a dummy too. If these guys are trying to find people in a place that they don't know,and with people either on the floor or running around,it's gonna be a lot harder. If they rescue anyone thats trapped it'll be a miracle,or a piece of amazing firefighting skill)

[slim]

Yea, the firefighters are doing a good job.

The thing is, they shouldnt have to shovel bits of body from the road. It is the job of our government not to let it get that far.

After the general election the terror warning level was put down slightly. Could this have cost lives.

Either way, i hold the illegal occupation of Iraq partly responsible.

[comradesteele]

back to slimms little group whats with the "imperial brotherhood" doesen't sound at tall leftist??? you sure you know waht imperial means?? Imperial brother hood brings to mind images of some fascist white power cult

[slim]

Look at my reply in the guestbook. You have shown a certain amount of folly in your hasty judgement.

www.freewebs.com/humanrightsassociation

[slim]

We're up and running. I sent emails to the major european leftist groups. No response. I told them about everything, not even the polity to respond.

Perhaps there isnt anyone to read the emails...

Now the HRA is running. We will respond to your emails and needs.

Do chara de geo.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2005, 04:02 PM
We're up and running. I sent emails to the major european leftist groups. No response. I told them about everything, not even the polity to respond.
It's probably because your politics is purile and they think you're a joke.

[slim]

The only politics we aspire to is questioning the state at every turn. The people deserve the power to voice their opinions about government policy and be listened to if they are correct. The shadow cabinet is a disgrace, it has basically allied itself with the labour party for the next set of anti terror laws that include legalised phone tapping, grouped search warrants (ie searching more than one property with a single warrant) and also a law allowing terror suspects to be held without trial for up to three months. This madness will allow a potential police state.

Another threat comes from the hundreds of military marksmen on the streets of Britain that have seen action before and have been given a shoot to kill order for those suspected of being bombers.

Never before has the government aided such lawlessness to happen. Innocent people can be murdered in the name of the crown. If a marksmen wants to kill his wifes lover then he can do so without fear of the justice system.

The new laws against "hate preaching" will no doubt endanger the spreading of any anti government sentiment. Communism will decline as will anarchism and trotskyism.

The fight against terror is not a fight against terrorists, it is a viable excuse for western states to clamp down on freedoms. You will see.

As for being a joke. Our ground support is growing. Perhaps the major groups are becoming futile in their actions. Violence is coming. They see it in front of their face, see a way out and ignore it. Whoever reads the emails are narrow minded and should not be in such a position in such prestigious groups.

We are the HRA and we will be at the forefront of the people's struggle for justice and freedom. We will stand up and question the questionable. We will defeat the defeatable. We will not allow the regime of Britain to continue its present course.