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CCCPneubauten
12th June 2005, 01:20
How does the pay system work in communism? All my friends as "Oh a trash man get's as much as a doctor" I know THATS not true, but I need a response to it. Thanks to those that respond to this dumb question. I'm just learning.

emisarre
12th June 2005, 02:18
YOU GET PAID NOTHING! IF YOU DONT WORK ITS OFF TO THE GULAGS FOR YOU!!!!

LSD
12th June 2005, 02:18
There is no "pay" in communism. There's no money.

Communism abolishes currency and value-exchange economics. People work in their chosen needed occupation because it appeals to them. The workers then collectively control their labour and bennefit from the labour of others.

In terms of the doctor and the trashman, both are considered equal members of society and neither is given preferential treatment or special status. Both have equal access to the communal goods and services of their society and both freely give their labour to that same community. What you have to realize, however, is that both of them are still doing much better than they were under capitalism!

Even the doctor, depending on his situation, was likely having a good deal of his labour being used to generate profits for others. Hospital managers, owners, board members, if he's American then Insurance companies and HMOs...

Furthermore, the doctor is liable to do a much better job on each patient, since the incentive to assambly line them is gone. Now, he is working because he loved medicine and seeks respect in his community. So he'll do a good job and not just a quick one.

It is impossible to have an equitable society so long as a consumer market in any form still exists. So long as people are buying and selling, disparity exists.

Communism destroys such inequalities and so elminates the need for "pay".

Clarksist
12th June 2005, 02:29
While I'm a big Lefty, I've always wondered why someone would be a trashman under communism. It doesn't seem like a job that would be filled up too quick.

The way to rebuttle the statement to your friends is say, "well they both deserve to eat and live, the doctor doesn't deserve life more than the trashman." at least thats what I do to shut them up.

rebelafrika
12th June 2005, 02:58
Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2005, 01:29 AM
While I'm a big Lefty, I've always wondered why someone would be a trashman under communism. It doesn't seem like a job that would be filled up too quick.

The way to rebuttle the statement to your friends is say, "well they both deserve to eat and live, the doctor doesn't deserve life more than the trashman." at least thats what I do to shut them up.
I would be a trashman under Communism if I could. Hell...I WOULD BE ONE UNDER CAPITALISM IF I COULD GET INTO THE FEILD!!! But thats how backwards the system is. It was "THAT" MUCH EASIER FOR ME TO GO TO COLLEGE THAN TO BE A GARBAGE MAN...WHICH I REALLY WOULD HAVE PREFERED DOING!!! So now I have one semester left and then I have a degree in philosophy :)

danny android
12th June 2005, 03:15
In my opinion the pay system should be like so. Curency is abolished, people are paid with the resources needed to live (food, shelter, water, clothing, whatever) and everyone is given these according to thier need. A trashman has his place in society and should not be treated any less than a doctor. Doctors shold be happy with his position as an equal to his comrades even though he contribute maybe more to society. Unfortunatly most people do not see things this way. If everyone was a communist then communism would work.

CCCPneubauten
12th June 2005, 03:21
Yeah, that's the problem, how are we going to get almost everyone to follow us? Most people still think communism is teh Anti-Christ. Plus most people want actual MONEY. So this sends a ton of people into a fit. I talk to a lot of farmers and they can't stand the idea od a collective farm.

xnj
12th June 2005, 04:16
Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2005, 12:20 AM
How does the pay system work in communism? All my friends as "Oh a trash man get's as much as a doctor" I know THATS not true, but I need a response to it. Thanks to those that respond to this dumb question. I'm just learning.
As someone already said, there wouldn't be a pay system, as we know it today, in a fully communist society. The economy would be organized around the principle: "from each according to ability, to each according to need" (Marx, Critique of the Gotha Programme (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch01.htm)). As in, each individual contributes to the best of their ability and receives what they materially need.

Furthermore, the division of labor where some people are garbagemen their entire lives and others are doctors would be abolished. The division between manual and mental labor would be abolished. For the first time, people would be allowed to develop as genuine all-around human beings.

I haven't read Marx's German Ideology, but this well-known excerpt sums up nicely how work would be organized:

". . . in communist society, where nobody has one exclusive sphere of activity but each can become accomplished in any branch he wishes, society regulates the general production and thus makes it possible for me to do one thing today and another tomorrow, to hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticise after dinner, just as I have a mind, without ever becoming hunter, fisherman, herdsman or critic." - from the MIA encyclopedia (http://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/d/i.htm#division-labor)

+++++++++++

The difficulty arises when we think about the transition from capitalism to communism. Marx differentiated between the higher stage of communism (described above) and a lower, transition stage (often called socialism). There's some debate on how we get from capitalism to communism through the transition stage.

Some argue that during the transition period, people should receive as much as they contribute, "from each according to ability, to each according to deed." Professions that require extensive education like doctors would receive more in pay than professions that require less training like garbagemen, based on some sort of fixed rate. One purpose of this arrangement would be to encourage people to work hard and produce for society based on individual material incentives.

Others (including the Che) said that material incentives should be de-emphasized in favor of moral incentives during the transition stage. Placing all the emphasis on material incentives would only promote careerism and opportunism. People should be encouraged to work because they're inspired on moral level to help build a better world free from capitalist injustice, not because they want to have more pay for themselves in the short term. Pay would probably be a lot more egalitarian with this arrangement. Voluntary work was supposedly a big thing that Guevara was promoting in Cuba after the revolution.

I'm not sure where I stand on this. On one hand, the fear of unequal pay scales reviving capitalist values has a point. But, I think bending the stick too far in the other direction would have terrible results too. At some point, unpaid voluntary work becomes forced work.

One last point (in this already way-too-long post), it's important that no country attempting to build socialism has ever been able to do it in a vacuum. Beginning with the Russian Revolution, every country taking the socialist path has faced military encirclement, economic strangulation, and political interference. In every case, the need to defend the revolution in the immediate period from very real threats is the number one factor in making economic choices, not what would be best for moving towards full communism.

danny android
12th June 2005, 05:22
Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2005, 02:21 AM
I talk to a lot of farmers and they can't stand the idea od a collective farm.
yeah i know. I live in a very agricultural area and it is kind of in my blood. The land farm owners don't like the idea so much because the market for agricultural goods in the US is pretty crappy for farmers. However what they get is huge in comparison to thier migrant workers, they are more like peasants in midievil europe than workers in a democratic state.