Palestinians and Israelis.

[Andy Bowden]

Last year the Conservative-supporting newspaper the Daily Telegraph conducted a poll, in which their generally right-wing readers came out with views extremely hostile to Israel - no doubt a dissapointment to Conrad Black, owner of the Torygraph ;) and personal friend of Ariel Sharon.

So is it a question of Left and Right anymore when it comes to the Palestinians and the Israelis?

In my view, it shouldn't be. For me it's a simple case of supporting a nations right to self-determination, and a people to be free from an occupying military force - something I think Libertarians and Capitalists can believe in.

Of course, many politicians on the right support Israel, largely because Israel supports many pro-Western aims in the mideast and AIPAC funds the election campaigns of many on the Right.

But what about ordinary Right wingers? Is the Palestinians and Israelis still a Left vs Right thing?

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

anti-semetic right-wingers usually attack both sides, but Israel more vehemently, since they hate Jews.

most right-wingers are zionists however.

[LuZhiming]

Originally posted by Andy [email protected] 10 2005, 07:10 PM
Last year the Conservative-supporting newspaper the Daily Telegraph conducted a poll, in which their generally right-wing readers came out with views extremely hostile to Israel - no doubt a dissapointment to Conrad Black, owner of the Torygraph ;) and personal friend of Ariel Sharon.

So is it a question of Left and Right anymore when it comes to the Palestinians and the Israelis?

In my view, it shouldn't be. For me it's a simple case of supporting a nations right to self-determination, and a people to be free from an occupying military force - something I think Libertarians and Capitalists can believe in.

Of course, many politicians on the right support Israel, largely because Israel supports many pro-Western aims in the mideast and AIPAC funds the election campaigns of many on the Right.

But what about ordinary Right wingers? Is the Palestinians and Israelis still a Left vs Right thing?
Frankly, issues should never be a matter of left and right. These are specific issues which should be dealt with specifically. One can base their decision to make a certain opinion of an issue on a principle which they can say is on one of the two categories(left and right). But one should base their decision on how they feel and ignore these categories like they're some kind of "side" to take. Opinions go in all sorts of direction on political matters and these superficial sides do not represent this at all. One can have an opinion that is for or against any of the factions in this conflict and be for that faction for totally opposite reasons.

So yes, it's what you said, "it's a simple case of supporting a nations right to self-determination, and a people to be free from an occupying military force".

[JudeObscure84]

anti-semetic right-wingers usually attack both sides, but Israel more vehemently, since they hate Jews.

most right-wingers are zionists however.

yes, that makes alot of sense. <_<

[JudeObscure84]

For me it&#39;s a simple case of supporting a nations right to self-determination, and a people to be free from an occupying military force -


does not Israel also have a right to self determination?

[Andy Bowden]

It does not have a right to occupy the West Bank and Gaza strip.

[CrazyModerate]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2005, 08:56 PM

For me it&#39;s a simple case of supporting a nations right to self-determination, and a people to be free from an occupying military force -


does not Israel also have a right to self determination?
Yes, but it doesn&#39;t deserve it more than Palestine does.

But ultimately the ideal would be for there to be a single bi-cultural, bi-lingual Palestine/Israel. But thats a bit optimistic considering there are violent and racist radicals on both sides, and those radicals are the leaders of many of the leading groups.

I think in some cases the Israel-Palestine issue can be left/right. Many on the American right have become much more anti-arab than they are anti-jew, therefore they have decided to support Israel. Israel is also considered an ally for America&#39;s imperialism, and mostly the right supports that imperialism.

[JudeObscure84]

It does not have a right to occupy the West Bank and Gaza strip.

If Palestinians put down there guns, there will be peace. If Israelis put down thier guns there would be no Israel.


But ultimately the ideal would be for there to be a single bi-cultural, bi-lingual Palestine/Israel.

you mean admit 2 million Palestinians back into Israel. that would be suicide for the tiny nation. the solution is a two state solution, but even that wouldnt solve much because now they would have a state by which to continue expelling the jews.


But thats a bit optimistic considering there are violent and racist radicals on both sides, and those radicals are the leaders of many of the leading groups.
thats more of a problem of the arab agression towards the jews.


Many on the American right have become much more anti-arab than they are anti-jew, therefore they have decided to support Israel.

we support Isreal because it is one of the only democracies in the mid east.


Israel is also considered an ally for America&#39;s imperialism, and mostly the right supports that imperialism.

What about the 4 imperialist wars launched on Israel by the Arab nations?

[LSD]

If Palestinians put down there guns, there will be peace.

Of course there will, because Israel is an occupying power and likes the status quo&#33; So if the Palestinians stopped fighting, Israel would be more than pleased to keep things the way they are.

It&#39;s the same with all occupying powers. Certainly Germany would have been delighted if the French resistance had "put down their guns", it would have saved them a lot of work.


thats more of a problem of the arab agression towards the jews.

...and Israeli agression (read: OCCUPATION) of Palestinians.

Don&#39;t you tell me that Arial Sharon is not a violent radical&#33;

Yes, there&#39;s a fair bit of anti-semitism in the region and yes, there&#39;s a lot of hatred, but don&#39;t kid yourself into thinking that this is some sort of "race war".

Israel is occupying Palestinian land in violation not only of ethical and moral rights but in violation of signed treaties and agreements. Most Palestinian fighters and "terrorist" are not doing it because they "hate the Jews", they&#39;re doing it because they&#39;re living in desperate conditions and want the illegal occupation to end.


we support Isreal because it is one of the only democracies in the mid east.

Well, it is now. But that&#39;s largely because your country has destroyed every other potential and actual democracy there (e.g., Iran).

Besides, you country has no problem supporting tyrannies and opposing democracies in other areas, why this "democracy policy" here?


What about the 4 imperialist wars launched on Israel by the Arab nations?

What about them?

You want us to admit that Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan are oppressive reactionary countries? No problem&#33;

...now it&#39;s your turn to admit the same about Israel.

[Publius]

True conservatives stay out of the issue, neo-cons however, are vehement Israel supporters.

My personal opinion: Let them settle the issue. If they can&#39;t reach peace, they don&#39;t deserve peace.

I personally believe Isreal should give back its occupied terrorities, and the terrorists should end their attacks.

The terrorists on boths sides.

[JudeObscure84]

Of course there will, because Israel is an occupying power and likes the status quo&#33; So if the Palestinians stopped fighting, Israel would be more than pleased to keep things the way they are.

It&#39;s the same with all occupying powers. Certainly Germany would have been delighted if the French resistance had "put down their guns", it would have saved them a lot of work.

Israel occupied the territories because of a war launched on them. They even returned some of the land to Egypt. the UN resolutions passed against Israel to give back the land were to be returned according to the Arabs acceptance of the nation of Israel, which the Arabs gave a flat out NO.


...and Israeli agression (read: OCCUPATION) of Palestinians.

Don&#39;t you tell me that Arial Sharon is not a violent radical&#33;

Yes, there&#39;s a fair bit of anti-semitism in the region and yes, there&#39;s a lot of hatred, but don&#39;t kid yourself into thinking that this is some sort of "race war".

It seems as though there is far more anti-semitism in the arab lands than there is anti-arabism in Israel. Besides most jews are smart enough to know that arabs are part of the semitic race, and any anti-semitism would be calling themselves out too.
Ariel Sharon was voted into office by a weary nation, after Arafat rejected the Clinton/Barak deal. It would be as if after 9/11, the nation voted in Bush. Sharon is a fierce general, but I would not call him a radical. There are plenty of Israeli radicals that want his head for his evacuation plan of the Golan Heights.


Israel is occupying Palestinian land in violation not only of ethical and moral rights but in violation of signed treaties and agreements. Most Palestinian fighters and "terrorist" are not doing it because they "hate the Jews", they&#39;re doing it because they&#39;re living in desperate conditions and want the illegal occupation to end.

Which the Arabs began. The Arab nations use the Palestinians as tools to push Israel into the sea. With one days oil profit they could feed thier palestinian brothers but instead they leave them there to rot. The Israelis could go in there and wipe them all out in single hour, but instead they routinely risk thier soldiers to go into house to house missions to root out terrorists. There are dozens of lawsuits filed against the Israeli army by the parenst of Israeli soldiers because of the risks involved in being a solider.


Well, it is now. But that&#39;s largely because your country has destroyed every other potential and actual democracy there (e.g., Iran).

Besides, you country has no problem supporting tyrannies and opposing democracies in other areas, why this "democracy policy" here?

Highly doubtful. The USSR did most of that job by arming alot of the mid east countries, while US armed Israel. If you are speaking of Operation Ajax, in which the UK and US went in after the Shah then you are mistaken. The Shah nationalized the oil that UK and US owned, and was going to become a Soviet Satalite. Personally, I think we shouldnt have gotten involved but thats the old Cold War policies I disagreed with. Im more Truman style, than Kissinger.
But after wards there were so many leftists that wanted the US installed Shah out of office, than rallies around, even ones with Picasso styled posters and flyers, ones supported by the Communist Parties international helped the Islamic students have thier revolution, and now we have the the Islamic Republic today.


What about them?

You want us to admit that Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan are oppressive reactionary countries? No problem&#33;

...now it&#39;s your turn to admit the same about Israel.

There is only so much that I am willing to admit about Israel. But it only goes so far as to admit that they are the real victims in this fray. The Palestinians are headed by ultra nationalist Fascist inspired militia groups that rival Mussolinis Blackshirts and the Nazi SS.

[LSD]

It seems as though there is far more anti-semitism in the arab lands than there is anti-arabism in Israel.

Perhaps, but if so most of that has come about in the last 50 odd years.

The biggest help to anti-semitism in the middle east have been the arrogant stupdity of the Israeli government. Make a theocratic state, get a biggoted response, I guess.


Besides most jews are smart enough to know that arabs are part of the semitic race, and any anti-semitism would be calling themselves out too.

:lol:

That&#39;s not what the word means&#33;


Ariel Sharon was voted into office by a weary nation, after Arafat rejected the Clinton/Barak deal.

That deal was a joke, of course it was rejected.


Which the Arabs began. The Arab nations use the Palestinians as tools to push Israel into the sea. With one days oil profit they could feed thier palestinian brothers but instead they leave them there to rot.

Yeah, again, we&#39;re talking about some disgusting countries here. Who&#39;s arguing?

That is aside from your contry which is quite good friends with Jordan and Egypt :rolleyes:


The Israelis could go in there and wipe them all out in single hour, but instead they routinely risk thier soldiers to go into house to house missions to root out terrorists.

Yes, the IDF could be more brutal. So what?


The Shah nationalized the oil that UK and US owned,

The Prime Minister nationalized the oil and it was fucking IRANIAN oil&#33;&#33;

The US overthrew a democratically elected leader and replaced him with a brutal dictator and that&#39;s why there&#39;s no democracy in Iran.

Once again, as far are the US is concerned, profit trumps democracy&#33;


There is only so much that I am willing to admit about Israel. But it only goes so far as to admit that they are the real victims in this fray.

How do figure?

More Palestinian civilians die every year in this than Israeli.
Palestinians live in worse conditions.
Palestinians are occupied, segregated, and marginalized.

Based on what standard is Israel the victim&#33;?

[LuZhiming]

Originally posted by JudeObscure84+Jun 10 2005, 09:21 PM--> (JudeObscure84 &#064; Jun 10 2005, 09:21 PM)If Palestinians put down there guns, there will be peace. If Israelis put down thier guns there would be no Israel. [/b]

One doesn&#39;t even need a great deal of knowledge on the conflict to refute this claim, just a tiny bit of key knowledge and the use of some common sense. Which side is more powerful, the Israeli&#39;s or Palestinians? The Israeli&#39;s. Which side has most control over any of the lands in "Palestine(not counting Jordan obviously)"? The Israeli&#39;s. Oh, that would mean you&#39;re wrong.

But even putting common sense aside, the Palestinians have been trying to pursue peaceful measures for years, the problem is that Israel does not want to give the Palestinians control over the West Bank and Gaza.


Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2005, 09:21 PM
you mean admit 2 million Palestinians back into Israel. that would be suicide for the tiny nation. the solution is a two state solution, but even that wouldnt solve much because now they would have a state by which to continue expelling the jews.

Your first two sentences are correct. I would ask you what you are referring to when you say "they" will be able "to continue expelling the jews." I especially take interest in the word &#39;continue.&#39;


Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2005, 09:21 PM
thats more of a problem of the arab agression towards the jews.

Why are more Palestinian civillians killed then Israeli ones if this is the case?


Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2005, 09:21 PM
we support Isreal because it is one of the only democracies in the mid east.

In that case the United States wouldn&#39;t support Israel&#39;s policy in Gaza or the West Bank because there is no Democracy in those parts, and Israel&#39;s actions prevent that from becoming any kind of possibility.


[email protected] 10 2005, 09:21 PM
What about the 4 imperialist wars launched on Israel by the Arab nations?

War of 1948 - Israel isn&#39;t innocent here either, but let&#39;s just say ok for this one.

War of 1956 - This war was completely provoked by Israel. Israeli terrorists were caught placing bombs in public buildings and American and British installations in Cairo and Alexandria in an attempt to mess up Nasser&#39;s relations with the West. Despite this, Nasser put every effort into keeping the border quiet. Israel, claiming to be defending itself from terrorist refugees in Egypt(which they felt Nasser should have further displaced somewhere), and also in response to the hanging of two Israeli terrorists(who had been engaged in bombing and arson in Egypt) attacked Egyptian military outposts in Gaza(Which previous to this, had been the least troublesome Arab area on Israel&#39;s borders) in February 1955 and Nasser responded by signing an arms agreement with Czechoslovakia and blockading the Straits of Tiran. Fedayeen groups in Egypt began attacking Israel. However, in the summer of 1956, Nasser had gained control of the Fedayeen groups and stopped their attacks. Following this, Israel got the help of Britain and France(who wanted the Suez Canal that Egypt had nationalized) and attacked Egypt.

War of 1967 - Israeli and Syrian relations became more hostile after Syria had diverted waters ways on its territory of the Golan Heights which bordered Israel. Israel, angered by this and claiming to be responding to Syrian sponsored terrorist attacks destroyed the water diversion facilities. Israel had already threatened to attack Syria and (false)rumors began to spread that Israel was already mobilizing to attack Syria. Nasser responded to this by putting Egyptian forces on alert and mobilizing them in Sinai in case there was an attack on ally Syria. Nasser then expelled U.N. forces out of Sinai. Israel, who had wanted control of Gaza and the West Bank since 1948, began to call up its troops on May 17. On May 22, Nasser blockaded the Gulf of Aqaba to Israeli shipping and signed a mutual defense pact with Jordan eight days later. Israel responded and launched their "lightning attacks" against the Arab states, then annexing Gaza, Golan Heights, the Sinai Peninsula, and the West Bank. Notable Israelis involved in these events like the former Commander of the Air Force, General Ezer Weitzman, Israel&#39;s Chief of Staff Yitzhak Rabin, and Moshe Dayan later claimed that these nations were not a threat to Israel.

Yom Kippur War - This war was launched by Egypt and Syria to recapture Sinai and the Golan Heights. The roots go a bit further however, Sadat of Egypt had been trying to reach a political settlement with Israel and the United States on Sinai, as he wanted to be a U.S. ally(he had gone so far as to purge "Communist" and pro-Soviet elements in his government and to move against his supporters by crushing a "Communist" coup in the Sudan.) But the U.S. ignored him, and Sadat, frustrated, took matters into his own hands and attacked Israel to get his political aims. The United States was surprised by Egypt&#39;s military strength, and responded by giving into Sadat&#39;s request and more, forcing Israel to begin to return Sinai to Egypt. Egypt became a U.S. ally and this made it much easier for Israel to continue its policy of oppressing the Palestinians and provoking Syria. The main blame of the Yom Kippur War falls on the United States(specifically Henry Kissinger) and Israel for occupying those territories in the first place.

War of 1978 - Israel, who had had plans of gaining influence in Lebanon by setting up a Maronite government there since the 1950s, began giving direct aid to the Lebanese Christian Maronite forces in 1976. Also, Israel had been bombing Lebanon all through the 1970s killing numerous civillians(for unspecified reasons). Terrorist groups in Lebanon eventually responded to this by launching vicious terrorist attacks against Israelis. Israel used one such attack to justify invading Lebanon and attacking the PLO. Israeli forces partially retreated later, but continued to bomb Lebanon sporadically.

1982 Lebanon War - Israel, completely unprovoked, invaded Lebanon to remove the PLO(The PLO had become a threat because they attempted to stop violent activities and began negotiating and accepting the right of Jews to self-determination). The PLO responded obviously by fighting back. Israel&#39;s methods were ruthless, and they quickly killed thousands of civillians, prompting the formation of various Lebanese guerilla groups to attack Israel. This led to a long and bitter conflict leaving tens of thousands of Lebanese civillians dead, until Israel finally retreated in 2000.



Hmmm, I see 1 at most.

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2005, 04:06 PM
My personal opinion: Let them settle the issue. If they can&#39;t reach peace, they don&#39;t deserve peace.
How disgusting. If you ever get mugged in an alley; I suppose we should stand idly by (well, if you can&#39;t agree with the mugger, you deserve it) but maybe the people in those areas don&#39;t count, maybe they are less important than the people you do care about?

[Professor Moneybags]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2005, 08:56 PM
does not Israel also have a right to self determination?
A right to self determination only applies to countries that oppose the US.

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by Professor Moneybags+Jun 11 2005, 01:34 AM--> (Professor Moneybags @ Jun 11 2005, 01:34 AM)
[email protected] 10 2005, 08:56 PM
does not Israel also have a right to self determination?
A right to self determination only applies to countries that oppose the US. [/b]
Don&#39;t you mean the other way around? The US only allows their favored countries to exist? That is those suppressing the working class for rulers&#39; interest.

[cormacobear]

Originally posted by Andy [email protected] 10 2005, 01:10 PM
Last year the Conservative-supporting newspaper the Daily Telegraph conducted a poll, in which their generally right-wing readers came out with views extremely hostile to Israel - no doubt a dissapointment to Conrad Black, owner of the Torygraph ;) and personal friend of Ariel Sharon.

Conrad Black (also a Canadian media mogul) is being prosecuted for embezzelment. LoL I love to see theives get caught stealing from corperations.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Originally posted by Professor Moneybags+Jun 11 2005, 08:34 AM--> (Professor Moneybags @ Jun 11 2005, 08:34 AM)
[email protected] 10 2005, 08:56 PM
does not Israel also have a right to self determination?
A right to self determination only applies to countries that oppose the US. [/b]
Don&#39;t spam. Back up your statements.

[Andy Bowden]

If the Palestinians put down their guns, there would be no Palestine - an aim the Zionist movement has been struggling for since 1948.

They want to destroy the Palestinian national identity and convert them to a generic "arab" equivalent - as if somehow a Frenchman or a Scot is simply a "European"

Also, why does Israel need to hold the West Bank and Gaza for security reasons?

The Gaza Strip borders Egypt, with whom the Israelis have signed a peace deal and the West Bank borders Jordan, a pro-western Monarchy whose military pales in comparison to Israels, the 4th largest in the world.
The only two serious opponents to Israel that now exist in the Arab world are Iran and Syria - and even then Israel is far more superior in terms of military power to them - when you add the 14 permanent US bases being built in Iraq, the playing field tilts further to Israels favour.

The real reason Israel holds the West Bank and Gaza is so Fundamentalist Jews can live in settlements there, from stolen Palestinian land - with the aim of turning the West Bank and Gaza into Eretz Israel, Greater Israel.

[JudeObscure84]

Perhaps, but if so most of that has come about in the last 50 odd years.

The biggest help to anti-semitism in the middle east have been the arrogant stupdity of the Israeli government. Make a theocratic state, get a biggoted response, I guess.

In the last 50 years? Apparenlty you dont know much of mid east history.


That&#39;s not what the word means&#33;

explain.


That deal was a joke, of course it was rejected.

why was it a joke?



Yeah, again, we&#39;re talking about some disgusting countries here. Who&#39;s arguing?

That is aside from your contry which is quite good friends with Jordan and Egypt

I wouldnt say that we actually have allies, but interests. So I fail to see your point.


Yes, the IDF could be more brutal. So what?

If you think defending your nation from terrorists is brutal, than I think the IDF are puppy dogs.


The Prime Minister nationalized the oil and it was fucking IRANIAN oil&#33;&#33;

The US overthrew a democratically elected leader and replaced him with a brutal dictator and that&#39;s why there&#39;s no democracy in Iran.

Once again, as far are the US is concerned, profit trumps democracy&#33;

It was not Iran&#39;s oil. The UK and US claimed it on thier soil and offered to pay them for distribution. they made a deal. and no...interests trump democracy,but our interests co-incide with democracy.


More Palestinian civilians die every year in this than Israeli.

because they refuse israeli help. the palestinian hospitals are full of old cheap equipment. the radicals flaunt the dead bodies of kids as a means to stir crowds. they even stoop to faking funerals&#33;


Palestinians live in worse conditions.

Have you ever seen the checkpoints in Syria and Jordan? They make the Israeli checkpoints look like a cakewalk. They are kept in thier cages by the Arab nations and refuse them entrance into thier lands. thier leadership consists of corrupt stooges that are funded by the same arab nations that keep them in their place. this is not Israel&#39;s fault.


Palestinians are occupied, segregated, and marginalized.

they are because of thier tactics to push Israel into the sea. not just because they are not Jewish.


Based on what standard is Israel the victim&#33;?

When nothing that the you do will get the other to stop hating and stop killing. the mere presense of a non-islamic democracy in an already conquered land is an anoyance to a radical. Yes, Israel is the victim of hate, prejudice, and terrorism in the midst of a sea of enemies. &#39;

I&#39;m sorry but you cannot convince otherwise, when the facts are so plain.

[JudeObscure84]

One doesn&#39;t even need a great deal of knowledge on the conflict to refute this claim, just a tiny bit of key knowledge and the use of some common sense. Which side is more powerful, the Israeli&#39;s or Palestinians? The Israeli&#39;s. Which side has most control over any of the lands in "Palestine(not counting Jordan obviously)"? The Israeli&#39;s. Oh, that would mean you&#39;re wrong.

Yeah. And I am glad they&#39;ve gained control. I wouldnt want any square bit of land in the hands of thier manic leadership. Israel had paid for in blood to keep thier country alive and to keep those murderous thugs back. Thats common sense.


But even putting common sense aside, the Palestinians have been trying to pursue peaceful measures for years, the problem is that Israel does not want to give the Palestinians control over the West Bank and Gaza.

:lol: and you preach about common sense.


Your first two sentences are correct. I would ask you what you are referring to when you say "they" will be able "to continue expelling the jews." I especially take interest in the word &#39;continue.&#39;

I meant continue what they started before 1967. They meaning the radical arab majority that wishes to push Israel into the sea. These are not my words but the words of the radicals themselves.


Why are more Palestinian civillians killed then Israeli ones if this is the case?
This is such an absurd question to ask. So Israelis should let the Palestinians kill as many Israelis to even out the number of Palestinians killed by Israeli crossfire? Not to mention that the Pals use human shields, are untrained guerilla militias going against a trained army.
Israel spends more than a quarter of their GDP on national defense. They have the state of the art medical equipment, response team and medics trained to handle outbursts of violent attacks. They even offer to fly in helicopters for Palestinians caught in the fire, but many refuse knowing that they may be implicated of harrased by the Pal leadership.


In that case the United States wouldn&#39;t support Israel&#39;s policy in Gaza or the West Bank because there is no Democracy in those parts, and Israel&#39;s actions prevent that from becoming any kind of possibility.

We also shouldn&#39;t be supporting alot of countries for alot of reasons, but Israel is a partner to US interests. Again, thats an absurd point, though. I would figure you guys to do more research than that. There is no democracy in those parts because of thier own corrupt leadership. It is the leadership that keeps control of the Pals through funding of other arab nations. The radicals keep the Palestinians in check, not Israel. Israel just keeps their border secure, and they shouldnt surrender til Palestine surrenders first. end of it....


War of 1948 - Israel isn&#39;t innocent here either, but let&#39;s just say ok for this one.

Ofcourse, it never is. :rolleyes:

Oh and your little list of wars ripped from the pages of revisionist history. I will give you a day 1/2 to retract your bogus claims before I demolish your ignorant claims.

[bur372]

Israel recives 2 (or is it 4?) million dollars a yearin military aid from america and that isn&#39;t money its arms so its worth ten times more.


More Palestinian civilians die every year in this than Israeli.


because they refuse israeli help. the palestinian hospitals are full of old cheap equipment. the radicals flaunt the dead bodies of kids as a means to stir crowds. they even stoop to faking funerals&#33; http://www.labournet.net/world/0406/pmrs1.html

I found some images of this somewhere. Of course palestine has a crap medical service they have next to nothing because of the israeli occupation. Look at iraq it has 70% unemplyoment it is the worst place to live in the world after the occupation.

Oh and here is a right wing (jewish) israeli site http://www.ahavat-israel.com/index.php

[JudeObscure84]

I found some images of this somewhere. Of course palestine has a crap medical service they have next to nothing because of the israeli occupation.

Because of the Israeli occupation? So the Israelis have an obligation to provide medical care to the people that not only reject it but also want them expelled? Thats rich.


Look at iraq it has 70% unemplyoment it is the worst place to live in the world after the occupation.
Yes, because it was so much better when Saddam was in power.



Oh and here is a right wing (jewish) israeli site http://www.labournet.net/world/0406/pmrs1.html

a jewish right wing site? it&#39;s a labour site offering a report from the Palestinian Medical Relief Society.

[bur372]

you are twisting my words I didn&#39;t say Israel should provide medical care to those in the occupied teritiories. Can you please tell me where you read that?

humans have a right to provide other humans with medical care personally I belive that all medical services should unite to provide one world health care system this would be to the advantage of the health of all the people in the world not just those who are rich and live in MEDC&#39;S

Typo bloody computer didn&#39;t want to copy <_< http://www.ahavat-israel.com/index.php

[JudeObscure84]

you are twisting my words I didn&#39;t say Israel should provide medical care to those in the occupied teritiories. Can you please tell me where you read that?

then what should happen? what were you trying to say then? shouldnt thier arab brothers pay for all the Pals medical care since they wont let them enter thier countries?


humans have a right to provide other humans with medical care personally I belive that all medical services should unite to provide one world health care system this would be to the advantage of the health of all the people in the world not just those who are rich and live in MEDC&#39;S

as long as its not forced, right? how will you actually make this come about?


Typo bloody computer didn&#39;t want to copy http://www.ahavat-israel.com/index.php

poor Israelis cannot be patriotic?

[Andy Bowden]

Under the Geneva conventions, military occupiers have a duty to provide health services for the civilian population.
Also, the Barak deal was a joke because Israel would still have had control over the West Bank and Gaza.
If Israel was serious about the West Bank becoming a part of a viable Palestinian state it would end settlement construction on the West Bank. They won&#39;t because they want to incorporate the West Bank into Israel forever.

[bur372]

poor Israelis cannot be patriotic?

http://www.ahavat-israel.com/protest/arabs.php


So what can be done? The answer to this question is very hard, but there is an answer. Most Jews in Israel and abroad would prefer that there would be no Arabs in Israel. Israel would become a much nicer and safer place to live in. But the actions that must be taken to achieve this are not very nice, so most people prefer to just ignore the problem hoping it will just disappear. A few have been brave enough to propose solutions. Some have said that Arabs should not be Israeli citizens, but Israeli residents. This would give them full rights under the law, except for the right to vote and to be elected to the Knesset.

There is a difference between being patriotic and being ultra-nationalist and racist.

I would say the this website acutally is not patriotic it talks about how they should rebel and change the knesset.

You should know by now most of the other arab countries do not want the palestinans they want their own country not to be part of all the other "arab states"


how will you actually make this come about? No idea maybe it will start in the EU at the moment you can be treated in a EU country hospital. There&#39;s some form you fill out before going on holiday and it will spread with the backing of medicine sans frontieers and the WHO.

[JudeObscure84]

Under the Geneva conventions, military occupiers have a duty to provide health services for the civilian population.

and the Palestinians reject it.


Also, the Barak deal was a joke because Israel would still have had control over the West Bank and Gaza.
Barak offered to withdraw from 97 percent of the West Bank and 100 percent of the Gaza Strip. In addition, he agreed to dismantle 63 isolated settlements. In exchange for the 5 percent annexation of the West Bank, Israel would increase the size of the Gaza territory by roughly a third.



If Israel was serious about the West Bank becoming a part of a viable Palestinian state it would end settlement construction on the West Bank. They won&#39;t because they want to incorporate the West Bank into Israel forever.

First of all, since when does the winning side in a defensive battle give back the land they&#39;ve won? And secondly the Palestinians have refused to acknowledge a Jewish state and see them as an occupier on not only the West Bank and Gaza, but in all of Palestine.

[JudeObscure84]

http://www.ahavat-israel.com/protest/arabs.php

i see nothing racist in this. they&#39;re just worried about the radical arab fifth column in the country.


There is a difference between being patriotic and being ultra-nationalist and racist.

I would say the this website acutally is not patriotic it talks about how they should rebel and change the knesset.

You should know by now most of the other arab countries do not want the palestinans they want their own country not to be part of all the other "arab states"

Palestinians do have a country, its called Jordan.


No idea

I thought so.

[Andy Bowden]

Palestinians have a country, it is called Palestine. In my town there is a memorial to British soldiers killed abroad on imperial adventures, one of the countries listed is "Palestine" - rubbishing the claim made by Zionist Golda Meir that "There is no such thing as a Palestinian". The fact that you have denied the existance of a Palestinian national identity disqualifies you from attacking those Palestinians who dismiss the existence of an Israeli national identity.

The Palestinians have not rejected Israeli medical supplies, they actually asked Israel for gas masks during the attack on Iraq in 2003, but were denied them. Israeli citizens however, were given gas masks free of charge.

That Zionist website you posted talks of "transfer", of moving all arabs, regardless of political belief or crimes out of Israel and the West Bank to another Arab State - this is nothing less than ethnic cleansing, discriminating against people solely because of their racial or religious background.

Also if the Israelis were prepard to give up the West Bank, why did settlement construction continue at a faster rate during the 90&#39;s? Why are there settlements in the West Bank anyway? If it&#39;s meant to be a defensive buffer, it should only have military bases on it.

[Xvall]

I think you&#39;ll have to be more specific. It would be innacurate to say "all Israelis" or "all Palestinians" are something. If you point out a specific group, however, we may be able to classify their underlying beliefs.