When Fidel dies

[gewehr_3]

When Fidel dies bush says he will send troops to make Cuba a "democracy" and I was wondering how many of you will join the fight against the US in support of Raul?

[Viva Fidel]

when did bush say this? what is your source?

i cant belive this, revolution!

[gewehr_3]

Sorry I dont have a source but my brother told me about it

[Phalanx]

I never heard this. I doubt the US has enough troops to go into Cuba, however.

[KptnKrill]

I question the validity of the source (no offense) :)

That said I'm not fighting for either side they're both equally oppressive and both harmful. On one side statist socialism on the other rampant capitalism mildly restrained by a crippled and practically powerless welfare system.
Personally I'm not the fighting type anyway. My solution is ocean colony :D

[lennonist-leninist]

well i think on the off chance that bush did send troops iinto cuba when fidel dies. i would do what i could to stop it.

[Clarksist]

When Fidel dies, I'm afraid that its going to become even further capitalistic with or without the United States. So if a few capitalist troops want to go and fight social capitalist troops... in the words of Sylvester Stallone in Rocky III (or was it IV?) "Go for it."

[Fidelbrand]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2005, 03:02 PM
in Rocky III (or was it IV?) "Go for it."
Rocky V it is.

[Severian]

Bush never said that to my knowledge. And there's no basis for thinking that anything fundamental is going to change in Cuba because one guy dies. The Cuban revolution depends on the support of millions, not one man.

[Andy Bowden]

I think when Castro dies Bush will try something. The exiles will push him to do it. This may sound sick, but if Castro were to die soon at least US forces would be tied down in Iraq.....

Bush will definitely try something when Castro pops his clogs - fortunately it will fail, because the revolution is much bigger than one man :)

[Colombia]

Sorry but I can't see the US failing to take over Cuba. They did it in DR, Nicaragua, and Panama. They can take over a little island nation.

[OleMarxco]

IF Fidel dies. It almost seems to me like he's going on forever ;)
But should so happen, I think his brother Raul will kick Bush's ass and (should, atleast!) set Cuba back (?) on the way to Communism.....

[Fidelbrand]

The point was not whether U.$. will do so , it was about whether Bush "declared" doing so (although the possibility is not less than 60%... ^__^)

[Sons_of_Eureka]

Last i heard Bu$h said when Fidel dies he would 'give' a lot of money to cuban opposition suporters and other like-minded degenerates,in order to try devide the country.

If Bu$h did invade Cuba a hell of a lot of Yankee embassys around the world would turn into ashes if you know what i mean.

[LSD]

The US will not invade Cuba, it isn't really their way in South America anymore. They will most likely fund and support local pro-capitalist forces in Cuba who, by the way, have a more than likely chance of success.

Sure, it would look good in Florida, but it wouldn't play anywhere else. The administration was able to make a case for Iraq being a threat, but no one is going to believe that after 40 years of the same guy in power, suddenly Cuba is threatening anyone.

Furthermore, unlike with Iraq, no other countries support US policy on Cuba. The administration won't find some UN justification or get international support. So the US would have to go alone...

Do you realize how much an amphibious military landing in Cuba would cost?
How about the casualties that would inevitable follow?

It would be a massive expenditure of money and troops durring a deficit economy with two other war zones being fought... It's not going to happen.

But then the US has much cheaper and easier means at their disposal. Not to mention that obvious US intervention doesn't have as great a track record as covert action in that region. Look at Chile, that worked with no loss of American lives.

I think it's almost certain that when the US acts in Cuba it will be through secret operations and covert funding, nothing more.

[Soyuz]

When Fidel dies USA will fund a local oppestion group to over-throw the communism. They will put money into it and I can be they are watch Fidels health and when it gets bad with start training the oppistion. People of Cuba will be divided in revolution. Many hate Fidel but many still hate USA very much too.

[Che1990]

I think the majority of Cubans love Castro (so I've heard from eye-witness accounts). I think if Bush tries anything he will be defeated by the revolution that will inevitably follow.

[Purple]

The most important thing is that Fidel Castro lives to see George W. get out of office, as Bush is the one that would probably focus the most on getting Cuba converted to capitalism within the United States. I am sure that Fidel has his plans worked out for Cuba for when he is dead, he would not leave his people without some sort of planning.

[Soyuz]

Fidel before he dies should make a new system... He should find a person he can trust and let that person starting govnering over Cuba. This way when he dies that person will alreay be the leader of Cuba and any USA plans will fail.

[Guerrilla22]

I don't know about that one. The thing is the US is currently tied up with Iraq, leaving almost no military personell avaible. I don't forsee the situation in Iraq clearing up within the 3 and a half years left in Bush's term. It's really hard to tell. Although the Cuban mafia in Miami wields a lot of influence so you never know.

[Soyuz]

USA will not use military. Its the money that will talk.

[Entrails Konfetti]

But, you don't think Fidels buddy Chavez won't have anything to say about it ?

[Soyuz]

Chavez did alot already. Bush hates him more anyone else on earth. I just dont think Chavez has a huge influence. I would hope that he can do something but he is having a hard time at his own place. USA tryed already to over throw him and they will try again. He needs to watch his own back, not protect someones elses back.

The good thing though is that the whole South America is becoming for themselfs and not USA ass kissers. That might help if more people stand for a Cuba that those people want. But people in Cuba want change too. Look how many are trying to illegally enter USA. When the flood gates open then alot of people rush to get out. Cuba needs someone that can leave it as is and be able to work with USA. If you like it or you dont... USA is strong and if Cuba trades with them and has some relations with them it will be very good for them.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2005, 11:51 AM
Sorry but I can't see the US failing to take over Cuba. They did it in DR, Nicaragua, and Panama. They can take over a little island nation.
Wrong.. I see A trend in your posts.

You think that the US will be able to do somthing they haven't been able to do for 46 years because of the death of one man?? There are MILLIONS in Cuba, trained, armed and ready to launch irregular and protracted people's war for as long as it takes. You thought the imperialists took a loss in Vietnam?? "You ain't seen nothing yet!"

The most likely counter-revolution 'scenario', would be somthing similar to what has happened in the former soviet bloc countries this year, a "palm revolution" if you will -- though the PCC and the people of Cuba have been preparing for years for the death of Comrade Fidel, not to mention that it is the millions of Cuban people that keep alive, and protect, the Cuban revolution, not Fidel (as if one man could).

[Severian]

Originally posted by Lysergic Acid [email protected] 10 2005, 07:00 AM
They will most likely fund and support local pro-capitalist forces in Cuba who, by the way, have a more than likely chance of success.
I agree with the rest of your post, but why such a high estimate of the miniscule organized opposition's chances?

Even Condoleezza Rice doesn't think so. (http://www.usembassy.org.uk/midest610.html) "And the problem with Cuba is that there isn't much room for the engagement, really, of whatever may be bubbling in Cuba -- just isn't much room. And what room there is, like the couple of projects that have come up over the last couple of years, Castro has managed to cut off."

It's interesting to note how the Cuban government responded last time it faced rioting in Havana (along the Malecon) in 1994 or so. It didn't send in the cops or army. It mobilized pro-revolution Cubans to counterdemonstrate and take back the streets. That base of support is still there.

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2005, 06:59 AM
IF Fidel dies. It almost seems to me like he's going on forever ;)
But should so happen, I think his brother Raul will kick Bush's ass and (should, atleast!) set Cuba back (?) on the way to Communism.....
Has anyone questioned that maybe Raul might die first?
Anyway, if Bush does try something or the next president, etc. We can only hope this unites the Cuban people and pushes them forward without too much suffering.

This is really more of a WHEN question anyway.

[Matthew The Great]

Raul, although yonger, certainly looks much older...and dare I say less healthy than Fidel. At least in my opinion, he does.

Which is interesting since Fidel seems to be a magnet for injury as of late.

[Commie Girl]

Originally posted by lennonist-[email protected] 9 2005, 10:03 PM
well i think on the off chance that bush did send troops iinto cuba when fidel dies. i would do what i could to stop it.
:P I doubt Bu$h Will be "President" when Fidel does die!

[MarxItUpSome]

Originally posted by Commie Girl+Jun 11 2005, 04:45 PM--> (Commie Girl @ Jun 11 2005, 04:45 PM)
lennonist-[email protected] 9 2005, 10:03 PM
well i think on the off chance that bush did send troops iinto cuba when fidel dies. i would do what i could to stop it.
:P I doubt Bu$h Will be "President" when Fidel does die! [/b]
Well unless he dies in the next three or so years then you're right - it won't be Bush.

[bolshevik butcher]

If cuba is as great as half of you lot say it is then 'socialism', will stay in place.

[tondraal]

I think that Cuba will stay in socialism, but the country will be more open for foreign money. Which will make Cuba something what Vietnam or other asian countries.
All nations shold stop the economical blockade of Cuba and let them rebuild economy for further stability.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

well i think on the off chance that bush did send troops iinto cuba when fidel dies. i would do what i could to stop it.

If you don't know how to hold a gun properly, you'll only get to be cannon fodder.

[TC]

This is kindof evil to say, but if American communist parties are serious about supporting Cuba and socialism in general, if it looks like there probably will be a war between the US and Cuba, they should all go underground and prepair to act as 'terrorist' organizations when/if the war begins...it would demoralize pro-war Americans to have stuff blowing up in their own country.


But there wont be a war because Cuba has nothing valuable like oil, and Cuba would be much more difficult to control then Iraq, there are no Kurds or Shia in Cuba, the entire population would be hostile. Raul has publically discussed that a Cuban military defense would be in the form of organized guerilla resistance to an occupation, the US government isn't going to want to have another Iraq, without the Oil, without the collaborators. Additionally if Castro dies when the Bolivarians are still in office in Venezeuala, Venezeuala would surely cut off US oil (if not give Cuba outright military assitance) severely damaging the US economy. Diplomatically the fall out would be much bigger then with Iraq too, Cuba is much better integrated in international politics.

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2005, 04:00 PM
This is kindof evil to say, but if American communist parties are serious about supporting Cuba and socialism in general, if it looks like there probably will be a war between the US and Cuba, they should all go underground and prepair to act as 'terrorist' organizations when/if the war begins...it would demoralize pro-war Americans to have stuff blowing up in their own country.
No, that would only serve to aid the ruling class and the state, and rally the vast majority of the population in "patriotic unity" against the small groups trying that.

The answer to imperialist war, as always, is the intensification of the class struggle. From directly antiwar action to simply refusing to subordinate the struggles and interests of working people to calls for national unity and wartime sacrifice.

[bolshevik butcher]

Severain's right. It would only alienate them and there support base.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

No, that would only serve to aid the ruling class and the state, and rally the vast majority of the population in "patriotic unity" against the small groups trying that.

I disagree. It is the only the right thing to do if the US decide to launch a war against Cuba. Not only on a moral and superfluous ground, but also materially.

To avoid direct confrontation with the ruling class when it is possible, is to encourage class collaboration.


This is kindof evil to say, but if American communist parties are serious about supporting Cuba and socialism in general, if it looks like there probably will be a war between the US and Cuba, they should all go underground and prepair to act as 'terrorist' organizations when/if the war begins...it would demoralize pro-war Americans to have stuff blowing up in their own country.



What do you mean by 'terrorist' organizations? Do you mean to conduct irregular warfare?

Also, why do you think it is 'kindof evil to say'? I think it is a brilliant idea.

[Severian]

Didn't you leave? Very loudly? Planning to repeat the display, maybe, like Russel Means' repeated resignations from AIM?

Since you've accused me of encouraging class collaboration, let me just quote Lenin - who, though some accuse him of excessive "authoritarianism", cannot be reasonably accused of reformism....


Wartime revolutionary action against one’s own government indubitably means, not only desiring its defeat, but really facilitating such a defeat. ("Discerning reader”: note that this does not mean “blowing up bridges”, organising unsuccessful strikes in the war industries, and in general helping the government defeat the revolutionaries.)

Lenin regarded this as so evident that it required no extended proof...as, indeed, it is. What's more, those who advocate such actions are not serious people capable of carrying them out, but merely dilletantes seeking to frighten the ruling class.

In war as in peace, the task is to make the revolution, not scare the bourgeoisie.

[codyvo]

When (if) Castro dies, I think that their will be a period of mass chaos, but I do believe that the people will keep the capitalists out. Bush very well may send troops but I don't think their will be many, he will be too rapped up in our middle east wars.

[andrew_the_fox]

[ http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662&page=1 ]


Who&#39;s to say we won&#39;t see a repeat of that ? <_<

The government always has their thinking caps on and no matter how hard we try they always seem a step ahead.

[Severian]

Thanks, Andrew. I think that helps demonstrate that such acts are helpful to the ruling class, since they considered committing &#39;em themselves.

The big obstacle to such provocations is they&#39;re hard to keep secret. Now even more than in the 60s...the national security bureaucracy and military officer caste are riddled with partisan political divisions, leading to constant leaks by officals seeking to embarass other officials.