Goth culture - damaging and commodifying rebel feeling?

[Reuben]

I would like to state first my general ignorance of 'goth' culture. I know only what i encounter amongst those around me. IT seems to me the this culture is , to an extent a new opiate. Yet one which is more sophisticated as this culture appears to take on the character of rebelliousness.


I find that many goths see themselves as extreme rebels and very alternative . Yet the reality is that at best their rebellion is apolitical and ineffectual. The fact is that this culture, while giving many youth the sense of rebellion does very little to genuinely challenge capitalism. In fact it is worse than that. It commodifies the image of rebellion, it turns it into a cutlure which funds the music industry. I feel tht out of the genuinely rebellious feelings of young people, becoming aware of their disenfraanchisement, it constructs yet another huge young consumer market and a culture based very much around the comodities of this market whether they CDs or hoodies or what.

What do others think?

[redstar2000]

No question that's what they (the capitalist class) tries to do...and there are a bunch of sickening examples, not just with goths.

Was it Nike who made a mini-movie about skate boarders, expressing very clearly the skate-boarders views of the attacks made on them...but with, of course, some special kind of fucking $200 shoe.

And the most disgusting one I've heard of, from South America...the evangelical missionaries down there (aspiring middle class businessmen) printed up a poster of Che with a crown of thorns instead of his beret--Jesus was the "real" Che. :-O Puke!

Still, to me, even "apolitical" rebellion or pseudo-rebellion or whatever one might want to call it is better than mindless conformity and obedience to authority. It's not MUCH better; but it's a little better. It shows a tiny little faint spark of human potential, that there's the beginnings of a person there, not just a mindless robot or a greedy bloodsucking bastard.

If you know any goths, punks, skateboarders, or other apolitical dissidents, be respectful. It's a longshot, but someday they might amount to something.

[IHP]

To me, the "goths" are rebelling because others are. They are trying to be different, but are being different with a group other people who are all the same. you understand?

i see it as a pointless rebellion. if they dress like that because they like the clothes and like the music, as that is how they feel comfortable, fair enough. but doing because they want to be different achieves nothing.

with us, as leftists, we are a little pariahic (is that a word?) ourselves, but we have a cause, and meaning to our arguments and actions.

that is all.

--IHP

[mentalbunny]

Well, I like to profess that I know something of the "goth culture". there are many myths surrounding it and I'd like to dismiss these. Goths are not quite what most people consider them. At my school if you have ever worn a certain amount of black, are slightly unhappy or have listened to anyhting heavier than Limp Bizkit then you are a "goth", but in reality we have never had a real goth in the school. There was one guy, a good friend of mine, who was almost a goth just before they "asked him to leave" when he became a prper goth for a few months, until he got bored of all the goths doing the same thng over and over again.

my sister is pretty "gothic", except she doesn't have an extensively goth wardrobe. She does have the mentality and music taste however.

Goths are not necessarily rebelling, the pseudo-goths may be trying to but are failing miserably. therewas a girl at my school last year who actually thought she was a goth for a while, fortunately she woke up and saw sense, I don't think it's possible to be a real goth until the age of about 17 and she was 13.

Goths are pretty selfish, and unfortunately often pretty capitalist due to this selfishness. Mnay of them are not trying to be completely individual, just different form the norm, expressing different ideas about lifestyle, philosophy and taste. Some are more anti-capitalist, my sister is very anti-microsoft and she only has LINUX on her laptop, but apart formt hat i don't know how she feels about everything.

Goths are usually really nice people so don't pre-judge them, they're all human, even the ones who think they're vampires!

[perception]

Quote: from mentalbunny on 9:50 am on Oct. 3, 2002

Goths are usually really nice people so don't pre-judge them, they're all human, even the ones who think they're vampires!

damn I heard some of these "vampires" sharpen their incisors and drink each other's blood and shit.

[guerrillaradio]

Firstly we have to define what is meant by goth culture. The general public perceives a goth to be someone who wears dark (predominantly black) clothes and makeup, and listens to music such as Marilyn Manson and Nine Inch Nails.

Funnily enough though, gothism a concept deeper than fashion, although I wouldn't expect most people to understand that. It's a way of thought, a whole different perspective on life. This is from http://www.goth.net

"WHAT IS GOTH?

This is probably the hardest question any goth could try and answer, one may as well ask 'what is society?' as it has so many facets it defies any definitive explanation.

Goth in its simplest form, is a subculture. A group of people who feel comfortable within each others company. There is no specific thing that defines what you need to do or be to fit into the goth scene (except of course the implied black clothing). People in the goth scene all have different musical tastes, follow different religions, have different occupations, hobbies, and fashion sense.

Why do people become goths?

Most goths become goths because they have been spurned by 'normal' society because the way they want to live their lives does not fit in with how most people are told to live theirs. Goths are free thinkers, people who do not accept the moral rules of society because they're told 'This is just how it is' or 'This is what God says!'. Rather goths tend to listen to what you have to say, and make up their own mind. This kind of free thinking and rejection of dogma earns only rejection in todays society.

However because of this rejection from 'normal' society, goths have banded together to associate with other free thinkers. This has a beneficial effect on both the individual and society as a whole. For the individual they have a sense of belonging, and friends they can associate with. For society it removes one more misfit filled with rage from society's streets.

This of course is not the case for all goths. Many goths today are goths for a variety of other reasons. They like the music, or the clubs are better, they have goth friends and joined in with them, or they just like staying up late nights and goths are the only ones awake to talk to.

The gothic stereotype

Many stereotypes of goths exist these days. It seems everyone has their own way to define 'what is goth'. From the stereotypes based on clothing to music right up to the stereotypes of all goths being satanists or part of some kind of cult. Categorically, all of these are false.

The goth scene is just as widely varied as society in general. There are many different professions represented in the scene, from highly skilled professionals like doctors and lawyers, to tradesman, to technically minded people to clerical workers. Many different musical tastes exist (and not all of them goth, there is a HUGE 80's following in the goth scene for some reason). The fashion varies vastly from goth to goth from the traditional flowing victorian style garments to the buckled and studded style regalia (also called industrial style, which is often closely related with goths, and have come to an understanding of co-existance, if uneasily at times)."

And I dislike Reuben's notion that all rebellion has to be anti-capitalist. Does that render the philosophical movement existentialism irrelevant then?? Sure maybe the majority of its writers had leftist links, but the philosophy itself was not overtly pro-left. Is Martin Luther King a bad man now cos he was pushing a pro-black agenda instead of a communist agenda?? How about Mandela?? And is Churchill evil just cos he fought Nazism instead of installing a Socialist government??

If you believe those things, then I truly feel sorry for you, as your opinions are groundless. The fact is that some rebellions and social actions go beyond installing a new economic system, which, ultimately, is the "true" left's aim.

[redstar2000]

The material on the gothic subculture was most enlightening; like most (all?) subcultures, it turns out there are lots of different kinds of folks involved for lots of different reasons. Makes sense.

Not ALL rebellion HAS to be anti-capitalist (in the present rather reactionary period, MOST isn't). To the extent that rebellion is anti-capitalist, it preceeds and helps to develop what we communists want: communist revolution. Therefore, that's what we want to encourage.

The historical figures cited were obviously rather complex personalities and thought different things at different times. Snap judgments--"good" or "bad"--are not very helpful. Having said that, I will add that clearly Churchell was one of the foremost imperialist politicians of the 20th century...and I suspect that his main objection to fascism was that he didn't think of it first.

[Iepilei]

Being a goth is just being a part of a culture. It's just the way they are, but there are exceptions to the rules.

There are many 'gothic' people out there who merely express themselves in such a way for the shock-value of being labeled a 'goth'. In all actuallity, gothic people don't tend to brag or draw attention to themselves. Just as the 'anarchist' trend that seems to have swept around the Public education system.

Most of these kids are just rebelling against cultural norms, seeing how far they can push them; not really pushing for any major changes as far as structure goes. It's a part of teenage life, I'm afraid. The part that distresses me is that the capitalists have found ways to manipulate such youthful rebellion and PACKAGE it!!!

Pre-packaged culture, $10.99 USD.

[guerrillaradio]

Quote: from Iepilei on 10:35 pm on Oct. 3, 2002
The part that distresses me is that the capitalists have found ways to manipulate such youthful rebellion and PACKAGE it!!!

Pre-packaged culture, $10.99 USD.

Exactly. Naomi Klein covers this in No Logo. The co-option of supposed outlets of rebellion by corporations.

[PunkRawker677]

"If you know any goths, punks, skateboarders, or other apolitical dissidents, be respectful. It's a longshot, but someday they might amount to something. "

It seems you think that punk culture is apolitical. Well, perhaps today's bullshit pop-punk culture is, but look into the roots and early punk and you'll see political hysteria. So, punks don't amount to anything, eh? So, when i change my clothes and listen to different music, i will suddenly see the light? What bullshit!

[Socialmalfunction]

as somebody who i dont remember once said "punk is a state of mind." you dont have to do something or spike your hair to punk, or wear nothing but black to be goth. both are things that come from the inside. just like being a leftist isnt something that can be completely captured in anyone one thing or way of life, the same goes for punk and goth. i know kuz im something of all three. its all a state of mind, an escape from the egotistical maniacs of this bull shit situation. (and i agree with Punk)

[mentalbunny]

socialmalfuntion, i agree. However we must learn to distinguish between left and capi goths, we can't just say "they're different so they must be ok", some goths are arseholes, as are some punks and some of everyone really.

This post doesn't really mean anything, sorry.

[PunkRawker677]

Your right mentalbunny. There is a large amount nazi punks. I wasn't saying all punks are of the left. I was just saying that they aren't ALL apolitical, and the roots were very political. In addition, one does not need to dress a certain way to be of the left. Goths, Punks, Regular people, factory workers, blue collar workers, everyone can be leftist. Not all of them are though.

[Conghaileach]

In my opinion, Goths are just angry people (in my experience usually young people) who are angry. They don't know what rthey're angry at, so they lash out at everything and take on this rebel status.

Then they grow up.

[Reuben]

I agree completely with the distinction between left and cappie or even let and apolitical...

Remebr that rebelling in itself isnt left wing. The BNP are rebelling against liberal democracy. To be left wing one must have an understanding that they are rebelling against capitalism abd equality and some kinod of vision of the more egalitarian principles they wish to promote

[RGacky3]

This is the most ignorant topic ever. People have called me a "goth" becouse I wear all black and listen to dark music (industrial and goth). "goth" is another word for german romantisism, and its a musical genre (not Meralin Manson, but things like bauhous or switchbade symphony). ITS A DAMN MUSICAL GENRE. Goths are not just some people who wan't to be different or rebel, its a musical genre.

(Edited by RGacky3 at 12:15 am on Oct. 5, 2002)

[Socialmalfunction]

alrighty, what i'd meant wasnt that all goths or punks are political. some punks wouldnt know politics if it bit them in the ass. but what i was saying is that you cant just label someone based on how they look, or how old they are. like i'd said, its a frame of mind. i only say this because i am forced to look at myself this way. there is no set way to categorize someone like me. i dont think anyone ever could. so anywho, goth isnt something that can always be distinguished from all the hypocrites out there. goth (as well as punk) are things that are felt and thought, not always rebellion but a sense of unity through muzik or similar philosophies.

[MJM]

Goths are angry?
I thought they were morbid and introverted. Fatal and unaffected by the world in general. Cynical and pessimistic.
The type who do love the world but think it's fucked and they can't do anything to stop the bullshit, but may try anyway if you talk right to them :)

Or is there a new gothic culture I don't know about?

[Angie]

My opinion of the Goth culture was always very much along the lines of what MJM just described. The ones I've known over the years have been amazing people who'd be more than willing to act on changing the world.

I also witnessed two different types of punks: the immature ones who ran around trying to destroy everything in existence just for the sake of destroying it, and the intellectual ones ("Int-punks" from here on) who made an effort to understand why the world was wrong, and to find ways of dealing with the issue. The latter usually mixed with the Goths pretty well, from memory (the former never got the time of day, thankfully.)

More often than not, Goths (by the above, and MJM's description) and Int-punks make some of the best protesters. Their heads are screwed on in the right place, and they don't care enough about Capitalist society to feel guilt about facing against it.

I have only benefitted from the friendships I've had with Goths and Int-punks, in this respect. Teaming up with those sorts of people would be a great thing for all of us.

[deadpool 52]

As Zippy so geniusly stated, being a goth is a cliché.

[RevWillNotBTelevised]

One may classify me as punk.. i have green spikey hair, i skateboard, listen to punk rock, sXe, politically active, etc. And i must truly say that you wouldn't all "benefit from being friends with the goths and punks." My fellow punker once told me that our economic system is democracy.. I think that this proves that the fact that some angst-filled youth dresses funky doesn't need to be smart. I have met many fascist/racist/homophobic/sexist punks and i can safely say that while many punks are more aware than many non-punks, it is a gross overstatement to say that "we would all benefit by being friends with them."

[Mazdak]

Funny, the goths call themselves that for whaT? What exactly are they trying to prove? Actual Goths were nothing like these of today. Sure there are some intelligent ones, but you dont have shave your head and cover 90% of your body with tattooes and piercings just to be "different."

[Conghaileach]

from MJM:
Goths are angry?
I thought they were morbid and introverted. Fatal and unaffected by the world in general. Cynical and pessimistic.

Depressed people can be hyperactive. It's a matter of individual differences.

[guerrillaradio]

Quote: from Mazdak on 2:28 am on Oct. 6, 2002
Actual Goths were nothing like these of today.

Precisely. Many "gothic" websites distinguish between goths and "people who wear black".

[Valkyrie]

Good point, Mazdak, and the thing is -- when everyone jumps on the same bandwagon and does the same thing to be "different" they're not different anymore... but all the same. No one is the least bit shocked anymore with a face full of piercings or tattoos.

Speaking of which, my cousin is getting a pretty big tattoo on his arm lasered off. It will take about 5 or 6 sessions to remove and will leave scars. He says it hurts like a *****. anyway, when I saw it after his just getting one of his laser jobs, it was all bubbly and bloody like a second-degree burn.

His friend on the other hand, a quiet kid who never speaks. has full arms tatoos, a scroll tatoo on both sides of his nose, tatooed eyebrows, and his earlobes have these huge disks inplanted in them. Huh?

And he's not done yet he says.... I told him.. well, I hope you don't plan to work for a living... cause you ain't never gonna find a job.

There's another guy walking around here with horns coming out of his skull. But he may have been born like that... you never know!

(Edited by Paris at 8:00 pm on Oct. 8, 2002)

[Exploited Class]

Any group of people become very sad when it all comes down to being the best of that group of people and not the best yourself you can be. So tired of "I am so much more goth than them", or "So he/she thinks she is punk?". The only thing worse is, dude check out my 400.00 dollar whatever black dress, shoes, pointy metal things..

Don't know where I was going but I will get there somehow. If you understood anything at all that I just said, please send 5.00 dollars to the following address:)

[mujer revolucionaria]

I have mentioned this in another forum about how I grew up in the punk scene.....this was back in the late 80s/early 90s.....

What always cracked me up were these kids who would spend loads of money and go well out of their way to get spikes in their $200 leather jackets, and spend at least an hour standing that mohawk up on end. These are the same kids who believe in the "fuck fashion" mentality.....when in reality, they spend more time on their hair and clothes trying to be "different" than my boffy beauty queen stepsister ever spent on her makeup and curls......ugh.....

[PunkRawker677]

I agree mujer. I have seen so many people spend hundred dollars on mohawks or liberty spikes. Shit, i just used gelatin and a whole lot of hanging my head upside down. As with studs and spikes, i don't really overdo it like alot of punks seem to, but i have never really seen studs or spikes cost alot. I get them in the 1,000 bags, and they only cost 20 bucks. Whats costs is getting them put in. People spend anywhere between 200-350 to get a jacker covered in studs, when it is SO fucking easy to do it yourself. I always have people asking me to do it and i always do for free because it takes a few minutes, the studs cost practicaly nothing, and its not a bother for me.

[mentalbunny]

What I find amusing is people getting dreads done at the hairdressers! And it's all so fake, for me that completely denies what dreads are, but that's my hippy streak talking (my cousin's a hippy, she's awesome).

people just don't have a clue...

[Socialmalfunction]

yeah it is rather sad that those people go out and spend a gang of money just to LOOK like everyone else when, if they really wanted to BE with everyone else they're going around it the wrong way. because for me, goths and punks are still just a bunch of people uniting on a common ground. people who really actually like the musik, or some philosophy. not people who all think oh hey this color of snot green looks awesome. and thats all they say. that is what i call, following the fad that isnt gonna last. punk is there and probably always will be, but it isnt always going to be the "in thing." so most of the people out there are simply wasting their money.

[Jaha]

well, to answer the whole punk question, you could ask unrelated things. what does it mean to be a poser, a prep, a nerd, an athlete, et cetera, et cetera....

what it comes down to is, punks and goths are people trying to find a place in the larger world. they all have different "issues" (all people do), they all took a different path. right now, the question is: "now that punks are here, what am i going to do next?"

[PunkRawker677]

"now that punks are here, what am i going to do next?"


what does that mean?

[Jaha]

its a reactionary question. basically, something you ask yourself when your view on the world has changed or the world has become different. it is usually an implied question.

[EjercitoFidelista]

The GOth culture.. might and my not be destroying the rebel beliefs.. but.. in all around the world. theres diff cultures.. and beliefs.. the thing that is destroying.. society are the streets gangs!.. we should bring them down.. little by little..

[Lefty]

um, do you know what goth culture is ejercito?

[Nickademus]

as someone who was once intimately connected with the goth culture, its not about challenging capitalism. its about challenging norms. its about promoting a different image of beauty. that's the rebellion it promotes. again, the culture itself has nothing to do with capitalism (in fact it is rather expensive to be a goth).