Communist society and Open Source community

[KR1Z4]

so communism talks about the abolition of private property.

of course you heared about GNU projects, open source software, GNU free,Unix, FreeBSD, etc...

those online communities are free from head to toe ! ;) the main site code is free, the members work for free, people surf it for free.

some of those communities :

- sourceforge.net : it's based on individual capabilities of programmers, ITs, ... who start a project, code it, accept other members to help them in it or giving remarks. when finished, the software is published for free on the net, with its source code to be later edited by other people livin in zimbabwe or in hawai.

- www.wikipedia.org (the free encyclopedia) : another community that interested me. an online encyclopedia that anyone can add articles to it, edit its content, make it better or even correcting grammar faults (somethin i really need :D )
so if you wanna add an article to the encuclopedia about your village, u can by one click start a new page.
every member has a small page where he may say why he contributes in wikipedia... i read a profile where the guys says "I am motivated by the sense of satisfaction I get by contributing to the production of a collective good."

those GNU communities are getting bigger and bigger, just because everybody wants to contribute.

you may say the quality of the articles of written codes are not that good, but no, they are better than sites or software that need "please enter ur visa number"! ;)

maybe some of us say communism "failed", and the communist society is "utopic". communism is working on the www?

so wt u think?

[cph_shawarma]

Yes, the open source community is partially communist in practice, since they are producing use values freely and freely distribute them. Of course, some try to turn these free use values into exchange values, which means they try to subsume the potential of the movement under capitalism. Anyhow, we shouldn't overrate this movement.

[KR1Z4]

we shouldn't overrate this movement

why?

[KptnKrill]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2005, 08:19 AM
Anyhow, we shouldn't overrate this movement.
Explain why not.
It's not perfect but it's essentially a watered down form of a gift economy. Though as of right now there are *far* *far* to many leeches who only using open source and don't do anything to contribute back to the movement. This is counterproductive. And you know who you are you fascists! Also over the past couple of years I've been seeing a trend where more and more kernel devs are being paid to do their work and most of the community it appears would like to see more involvement by companies and shit :|

[Snitza]

Originally posted by KptnKrill+Jun 9 2005, 01:00 PM--> (KptnKrill @ Jun 9 2005, 01:00 PM)
[email protected] 9 2005, 08:19 AM
Anyhow, we shouldn't overrate this movement.
Explain why not.
It's not perfect but it's essentially a watered down form of a gift economy. Though as of right now there are *far* *far* to many leeches who only using open source and don't do anything to contribute back to the movement. This is counterproductive. And you know who you are you fascists! Also over the past couple of years I've been seeing a trend where more and more kernel devs are being paid to do their work and most of the community it appears would like to see more involvement by companies and shit :| [/b]
But what about people with little or no programming or computer skills? How can these people "give back" to the open source community, and not be labeled a "fascist" by people like you?

Not everyone can be skilled in every industry that they take part in for use.

[KptnKrill]

Oh don't worry about that, I call everyone a fascist. Improper use of the term... sometimes... ;)

There's more to open source than coding. Needed are documentation writers, advanced users are always need to help newbs with troubleshooting, bug testing is always key (download often, download early).
There's lots to do, use your imagination.

But c'mon be realistic, you should know how to use your *nix box and not rely on an ever shrinking percentage of developers to heed to the requests of all users, and stop demanding that they make software that's explicitly for the retarded! I'm tired of this "newb-friendly" bullshit. Well written software is naturally intuitive, making user-friendliness your main goal is foolish and results in poor or crippled programs.

Or you could just leech like most everyone else :|

[KR1Z4]

But what about people with little or no programming or computer skills? How can these people "give back" to the open source community

does it look like that the human nature says that we cant be equal, everybody has a certain level in the society, not necessarily an economic level in the beginning but a level of capabilities, knowledge and experience?

open communities are not only computer stuff. there's Open-Colo. like coca cola and pepsi...but u have the right to manipulate the ingredients to make it taste better... a bit weired, but it works, especially in italy

[OleMarxco]

Now let us not forget Open Source programs (with a programming communities coming with it, of course) like LINUX (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux) from here in Scandinavia, ipso factos! :D

As for newbie-friendly OS's, being programmer-hostile, MEH, you could always just make the "easy-to-use" Operation System's harder, and more complicated, if'n you want! And give the OS more advanced possibilities, like programmers have done! Duh! That's what programs are for!


Originally posted by "KptnKrill"
Though as of right now there are *far* *far* to many leeches who only using open source and don't do anything to contribute back to the movement. This is counterproductive.

And so what? For the first, the reason they are is because they might not have any knowledge of programming, and that's obviously also why they're doin' it in the first place, secondly, it must also mean it's good enough to be used that they do and not contribute, thirdly, that it's what they see they get, so if their contribution could've made it better for others, it makes it better for themselves, and perhaps the program has a serious problem that could contribute to solve or some tweakin' to irritatin' bugs here and there so what they don't help to don't help them. And that's also like Communistic society; People will work because of necessity, not becuase they're forced to do so they can survive. It doesn't mean you -HAVE- to, for what if you don't know what to do with it and no-one gives any pointers? By "necessity" I mean not like survival-necessity in the direct mean, but in-direct means, that they will be 'forced' to do so when they see how sociey decays easily withouth lack of enough attention to vital parts. What hurts all, hurts you, in the end. And so about open-source; It's free to use, and free to contribute. Social responsability-feelings help, too.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by KptnKrill
...stop demanding that they make software that's explicitly for the retarded! I'm tired of this "newb-friendly" bullshit. Well written software is naturally intuitive, making user-friendliness your main goal is foolish and results in poor or crippled programs.

I feel the love. :wub:

Very well...you go off and write some "intuitively obvious" software and all the rest of us "retarded newbies" will, perforce, use some "crippled program" that at least does what we ask it to do without having to be erotically stroked in machine code.

Piss off, you arrogant bastard! :angry:

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[KptnKrill]

Originally posted by redstar2000+Jun 9 2005, 03:23 PM--> (redstar2000 @ Jun 9 2005, 03:23 PM)
KptnKrill
...stop demanding that they make software that's explicitly for the retarded! I'm tired of this "newb-friendly" bullshit. Well written software is naturally intuitive, making user-friendliness your main goal is foolish and results in poor or crippled programs.

I feel the love. :wub:

Very well...you go off and write some "intuitively obvious" software and all the rest of us "retarded newbies" will, perforce, use some "crippled program" that at least does what we ask it to do without having to be erotically stroked in machine code.

Piss off, you arrogant bastard! :angry:

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif [/b]
I'm not being arrogant I'm being practical. I have nothing against newbies. I do have a problem when people become so lazy that they refuse to learn anything new and they instead demand that others do all the work for them while they contribute nada.

If the quality, ease of use, and security that go along with f/oss are to stay then a radical change needs to be made within the structure of the community.

I don't understand why you would get so offended, do you consider yourself technically challenged or something? Doesn't seem to take much with you...

edit:
@OleMarxo:
That was my point... F/OSS is communistic, it is not however communist. Simply because of the differences between the "real" world and the digital world / community. My criticisms of f/oss comes from this (perhaps you didn't understand this point redperson). No real communist society could work the way oss works currently and I was explaining why.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by KptnKrill
I do have a problem when people become so lazy that they refuse to learn anything new and they instead demand that others do all the work for them while they contribute nada.

I don't "demand" that you lift a fucking finger. You are the one who wants to write programs that us "lazy newbie retards" can't use without a degree in computer science.

Gosh, we are just "too lazy" to spend hours and hours trying to figure out how to use your "intuitively obvious" software.


I don't understand why you would get so offended, do you consider yourself technically challenged or something? Doesn't seem to take much with you...

No it doesn't -- the implication that I or others who want software that does what we want it to do as soon as we load it are "lazy retards" is more than sufficient to piss me off!

You sound just like a number of artist-types that I've had the misfortune of running into: "If you don't understand my art, that just shows what an uncultured peckerwood you are!"

Ok, art is one thing...and maybe I am an "uncultured peckerwood".

Software is not art! It's a tool...like a hammer or a screwdriver.

If you had to choose between an ordinary hammer that can be used right off the shelf and a box full of stuff that, with a great deal of work, might someday be assembled into a "world-class hammer", which choice would you make?

And which choice do you imagine most people would make?

Why do you think that the overwhelming majority of people on this board use Windows and not Linux?

Even though you'd think that being a bunch of commies, we'd naturally prefer to use Linux.

Ok, Windows came bundled with our computers when we got them. But much more importantly, even a "lazy newbie retard" can start doing stuff with his/her new computer within an hour or less of hooking it up!

Sure, Microsoft is a racket and Bill Gates is a pig...every commie agrees on that. And there is a learning curve with Windows...it does take some work to learn how to do more complicated stuff on it.

But compared to open-source??? :o

Hell, I actually bought a cheap ($7.50) Linux disk...and could never even get the motherfucker to load properly! :angry: (And I was getting online advice from someone who was very knowledgeable about Linux and a big fan of open source.)

Frankly, I think your "lazy newbie retard" comment regarding the end-users or potential end-users of your software is all too typical of the "open source community".

We'll make something that is so cool that it won't matter if only .001% of the population will ever be able to use it!

There's a technical term for that approach: arrogance!

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[Fidelbrand]

Some accute observation and elboration there KR1Z4. :)


Software is not art! It's a tool...like a hammer or a screwdriver.

If you had to choose between an ordinary hammer that can be used right off the shelf and a box full of stuff that, with a great deal of work, might someday be assembled into a "world-class hammer", which choice would you make?

And which choice do you imagine most people would make?

Folly it may seem, a Hammer/screwdrive can be a work of art too, not to say a software.

An Ordinary hammer is the choice for using in a daily basis. "The world-class hammer" can be created by the communist/socialist community/country as a work of art created by the people. Well, I have to admit a hammer is a utility. But art adds aesthetic values to everything. A piece of plain paper, mainly used for writing, can be "marble-patterned" and it adds joy not only for artists but for ordinary people who writes or draws. The only worry I have is how the "class" element is added to the particular.

Oh, nothing... just philosophising... :P

[KptnKrill]

Well you can certainly type. I hope you didn't have to spend hours of effort wasted learning that :rolleyes:
Quite frankly I don't have the time to waste responding to your quite pointless driveling just as you don't have the time to.... Well christ it would appear you have plenty of time to waste. So nevermind then.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2005, 01:59 PM
Well you can certainly type. I hope you didn't have to spend hours of effort wasted learning that :rolleyes:
Quite frankly I don't have the time to waste responding to your quite pointless driveling just as you don't have the time to.... Well christ it would appear you have plenty of time to waste. So nevermind then.
And thank you for your thoughtful and supportive response.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[cph_shawarma]

And there is a learning curve with Windows...it does take some work to learn how to do more complicated stuff on it.
Just a comment on this and the discussion in general. The biggest problem with Windows is not that it is "user-friendly" (as we now know there are quite alot of different definitions of this), but that it is targeted at the newbie. Not to give any reproaches to newbies, we all are at some point in time. What you learn in User Interface Design-classes is to target software towards the middle group, which is the strata where most of us will end up, between the noob and the wizard (but of course with the possibility to evolve to wizard later). Since we quite fast will reach this strata it is absolutely idiotic to construct an interface targeted at the newbie. But this is exactly what Microsoft has done.

There has been quite a few Linux-distros aimed at this goal and they have succeeded in varying degrees. But I feel that nowadays learning Linux is just as problematic as learning Windows. I might be biased, though. ;)

[apathy maybe]

Why can you use Windoze and not Linux? Because you are used to using Windoze. If you set a person who has never used a computer before (or not a modern one maybe) in front of three computers, a Windoze one, a MacOS X and one running the GNOME desktop, they won't find the Windoze one easier to use. Why? Because it is not intutivie.

The only reason people use Windoze is because it is on most new computers, in all the librarys etc. People have to know how to use it, even then most people can't use it properly. If most new computers came preloaded with GNOME/X/GNU/Linux (or [insert random good desktop here/X/GNU/[insert random good Unix like system here]) then everyone would learn how to use it.

And even then your computer has to be up to scratch (you can't run Windoze XP on a Pentium, though you can run some X desktops and Linux (the software is very light)).

As to the question, no the online movements of Free Software and Open Source Software are not communistic. Yes they contain some elements which are communist or anarchist, however, they also contain minimal state capitalists (who oppose copyright).

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by cph_shawarma+--> (cph_shawarma)The biggest problem with Windows is not that it is "user-friendly" (as we now know there are quite alot of different definitions of this), but that it is targeted at the newbie.[/b]

That's a problem?

When 95% of the world's population are newbies?

Good grief, no wonder that bastard Gates is so fucking rich! :o

He stumbled on the idea that personal computers should be easy to use, even for beginners.

Horrors!


Apathy Maybe
If you set a person who has never used a computer before (or not a modern one maybe) in front of three computers, a Windoze one, a MacOS X and one running the GNOME desktop, they won't find the Windoze one easier to use. Why? Because it is not intuitive.

Well, I don't know about that...I didn't get that choice and most people at the present time don't get that choice. I would have considered buying a Mac with OSX...but it would have meant spending maybe twice as much money for the same computing power. So I bought a Dell reconditioned 2400 for $400 with, of course, Windows XP Home pre-installed.


If most new computers came preloaded with GNOME/X/GNU/Linux (or [insert random good desktop here/X/GNU/[insert random good Unix like system here]) then everyone would learn how to use it.

Well sure...they'd have little choice in the matter. But suppose all new computers came without an operating system at all. You had to buy that separately and make a "blind choice" of which to purchase. The only thing you had to go on was reputation for "ease of use".

What would you pick then?

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

[encephalon]

This is a frequent problem with kids that grow up with computers, like them, and teach themselves how to program because they're lonely and bored (that's not an insult.. I was one of those kids).

The truth is, people over the age of 30 were lucky to TOUCH a computer before they became adults; and when they did touch one, it was usually an ATM machine.

People are products of their environment; if you grew up with a horse and carraige instead of those newfangled cars, you'd not have a clue what to do when you sit behind the wheel, even though today we think it's quite obvious.

In 30 years, most people will find computers "intuitive." Not unless they're eased into it, though. You generally don't read Das Kapital before you read the Communist Manifesto, and there's a reason for that. Same goes for computers.

[cph_shawarma]

Originally posted by cph_shawarma
The biggest problem with Windows is not that it is "user-friendly" (as we now know there are quite alot of different definitions of this), but that it is targeted at the newbie.

That's a problem?

When 95% of the world's population are newbies?

Good grief, no wonder that bastard Gates is so fucking rich! :o

He stumbled on the idea that personal computers should be easy to use, even for beginners.

Horrors!
Yes, it's a problem, since 95% of computer users are not newbies, they are average users. You should have read the rest of my post!!

To design good software, design for the average user, and allow for wizards to express their talents freely if they wish. Most people will end up as average users in days or weeks. And yes, computers should be easy to use, but Windows is not easy-to-use, especially not if you have to do something out of the everyday treadmill. I don't know how many times I have had to look for something for hours, trying to fix some small problem on Windows, while I do it in seconds on a Linux shell.

[KptnKrill]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2005, 01:55 AM
And thank you for your thoughtful and supportive response.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif
Thank you, it was hard. But I think I achieved the thoughtfulness and supportive nature of posts.


I don't know how many times I have had to look for something for hours, trying to fix some small problem on Windows, while I do it in seconds on a Linux shell.
Exactly what I'm talking about. It's not that f/oss is hard to use. It's that the main focus is on the quality

So while your programs crash all the time and you may have to reboot pointlessly. My gentoo install has been up for 5 months and 3 days. And the only time I've had a program crash is because I did a bad compile. But you can go use your "intuitive" windows.

[cph_shawarma]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2005, 12:07 PM
But you can go use your "intuitive" windows.
I just said Windows wasn't intuitive... I attacked the design philosophy (or lack thereof) of Windows.......

[KptnKrill]

hehe sorry. That last part wasn't directed at you :D

[STI]

So I bought a Dell reconditioned 2400 for $400 with, of course, Windows XP Home pre-installed.

Dude, RS is gettin' a Dell.