Do you side with the PLO?

[Phalanx]

I understand that many of you find solidarity with the Intifada. I was wondering if you side more to the PLO, or to groups such as Hamas? I personally don't like any of them and I have several reasons:

The PLO is stomping on their citizens rights. Money is taken from Palestinian workers to go into buying PLO members' BMW's or nice houses abroad. One example is Suha Arafat. She drove around the wreckage that is Rafah in her BMW! She lives in a chic Paris neighborhood, buys designer clothes, and complains about the Israelis. How can she complain when she is taking the common workers' money. She is a fat capitalist pig who deserves no respect.

As to Hamas: I mostly disagree with their leaders: One, Rantisi, said that "Hitler was a victom of the Jews" and said that "the holocaust was a product of the Jews, to make you feel sorry for them". Language like that makes me want to piss on his grave, which he doesn't even deserve.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

PLO are a bunch of bastards. A while ago I read that the Palestinian PM's family company actually sells the concrete for the apartheidswall. Anyway, the days of idealism seems to be over for the leadership. It's become a money/powergrab now.

[LSD]

The PLO is a corrupt disgusting reactionary organization but it's MUCH better than hammas which is a genocidal and racist disgusting reactionary organization.

Both of them, along with many other such organizations, are bennefitted so much by the current conflict that there is really no motivation on the part of their leadership to stop it.

Most of the rank and file PLO members probablt honestly do believe that they are helping the Palestinian people. Same even for those who join Hammas and such. They are desperate people who think that this is their only option. I don't blame them for this, they are in a terrible situation.

But I do blame their leaders who use and exploit these people for their own political purposes.

On both sides of this are political institutions that have built up over fifty years. The PLO only exists, at this point, to hate Israel, and to a large extent, the degree to which you'll return that hate is the major election issue in Israel.

What we need is for a general solidarity movement from both sides, ignoring the leaders and the politicians. Both sides are being oppressed, by their leaders, by their bosses, by the political and economic systems. Unfortunately, the indoctrination has been quite good and so this does not appear likely to happen soon. :(

[Paradox]

I pretty much agree with what LSD said. The Palestinian people are resisting Israeli occupation, and those rank and file members in groups like Hamas or others think that's their only option. I agree that the leadership on both sides is garbage, and that we need a unified solidarity movement made up of both sides. But again, as LSD pointed out, that doesn't look too likely at the moment.


A while ago I read that the Palestinian PM's family company actually sells the concrete for the apartheidswall.

Wouldn't surprise me. I remember watching a documentary on HBO about the situation between Palestine and Israel, and they interviewed some members from the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade. The members said that they had purchased their M16 rifles from Israel, even mentioning that Ariel Sharon had to do with the sale. They said that it didn't matter that they were "enemies" because they had money, and that if they had enough money they could buy a tank from Israel.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Yeah, Israel actually funded Hamas and are partially responsible for it's present power. They funded Hamas to divide the Palestinian armed struggle, to weaken the PLO. Guess, it hits them right back.

[il Commie]

Look, the PLO might be corrupted and scums, but they have a reasonable idea on how to end this conflict and bring peace, whilst the Hamas only solution is to kill israeli children. Is there a question who leftist should preffer?

[Intifada]

Fuck both the PLO and Hamas.

The PLO is not interested in the welfare of the Palestinian people who are really suffering at the hands of the Israelis. They are, quite simply, reactionary capitalists who exploit the Palestinian people and their struggle.

At least Hamas provides some sort of welfare for the Palestinian people, who then believe their lies and trust them. It is no wonder that they are getting votes in local elections. That needs to be put to an end.

There needs to be solidarity between both the Israeli and Palestinian people.

[anonymous red]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2005, 03:27 PM
There needs to be solidarity between both the Israeli and Palestinian people.
this is the only way to peacefully end this mess.

[praxis1966]

Originally posted by anonymous red+Jun 9 2005, 03:58 PM--> (anonymous red @ Jun 9 2005, 03:58 PM)
[email protected] 9 2005, 03:27 PM
There needs to be solidarity between both the Israeli and Palestinian people.
this is the only way to peacefully end this mess. [/b]
Eh, maybe, maybe not. Worker's solidarity movements are generally met with violence at the hands of the entrenched oligarchy as a means of protecting their hegemony. I honestly think that if Israeli and Palestinian workers united in oposition to their respective governments, they would in turn probably be shot by their respective governments.

[anonymous red]

yes, it was a bad choice of words. i meant "effectively."

[cormacobear]

It's not suprising that the leadership of the PLO is corrupt. IN an enviornment where such devastating forces are amassed against any effort to organize, the only men who will succeed tend to be greedy violent men.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2005, 02:46 AM
Eh, maybe, maybe not. Worker's solidarity movements are generally met with violence at the hands of the entrenched oligarchy as a means of protecting their hegemony. I honestly think that if Israeli and Palestinian workers united in oposition to their respective governments, they would in turn probably be shot by their respective governments.
True, but it's the only real solution. Israeli and Palestinian leaders benefit from this conflict. There is no need for them to solve this situation, plus it's highly likely that a bourgeoisie Palestinian and Israeli government will always stay in conflict.


Look, the PLO might be corrupted and scums, but they have a reasonable idea on how to end this conflict and bring peace, whilst the Hamas only solution is to kill israeli children. Is there a question who leftist should preffer?

Yeah, none of the above.

[praxis1966]

Originally posted by Non-Sectarian Bastard!@Jun 9 2005, 10:42 PM
True, but it's the only real solution. Israeli and Palestinian leaders benefit from this conflict. There is no need for them to solve this situation, plus it's highly likely that a bourgeoisie Palestinian and Israeli government will always stay in conflict.
Well I agree with that. I was just pointing out that it would be naive to think that this solution would be bloodless, even if it is the right way to go.

[Sons_of_Eureka]

Is there any popular Marxist-Leninist in Palistine?,I recall the PLO origanaly having Marxist roots which have long since been abandond.

As for PLO and Hamas,I support Hamas more than the PLO as Hamas although very reactionry in nature reminds me of Hisbollah which has done great thing,in my opinion.

[Black Dagger]

Both of the latter two organisations you mentioned want to exterminate not only the Israeli state, but its people, how is that 'great'? Hamas et al are no better than the IDF.

[il Commie]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2005, 04:55 AM
Is there any popular Marxist-Leninist in Palistine?
Yes, there are three small parties -

Paleatinian People's Party - former pro-soviet communist party. Today made mostly of intellectuals, and oposses terror.

Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine - former pro-chienese communist party. Uses terror against israeli civilians.

Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine - a socialist party, who opposes terror and zionism.


They are all small.

[bolshevik butcher]

I do generally sympathise with the PLO, they don't do the ebst job it has to be said but it's better than an islamic fundementalist faction or the israelis.

[rebelafrika]

I support the PLO.

[Paradox]

I do generally sympathise with the PLO, they don't do the ebst job it has to be said but it's better than an islamic fundementalist faction or the israelis.

I don't see why you would sympathize with any of these groups. Sympathizing with the people themselves -the victims on both sides, and those who are so desperate that they feel joining one of these groups is their only hope for success- is another matter. So far, the only group mentioned in this thread that I would even consider supporting is the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine.

[bolshevik butcher]

Orite, i can go with that, but the plo is the group that best represents the wishes of the people, out of the major groups in palestine.

[Phalanx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2005, 04:55 AM
As for PLO and Hamas,I support Hamas more than the PLO as Hamas although very reactionry in nature reminds me of Hisbollah which has done great thing,in my opinion.
How can you support either group? Both bring unnessasary amounts of bloodshed to the region. I agree with most of the people on this board, the PLO is the lesser of the two evils.

[TC]

The PLO is simply the only viable anti-imperialist leftwing force in Palestine...it might not be perfect but its much better then the absolute totalitarianism of the Zionists and the Islamists and those are the two other powers in the country.

[refuse_resist]

I agree with TragicClown.

Other good groups are the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) and Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine - General Command.

http://www.pflp.net/

[bolshevik butcher]

refuse resist, are either of these groups anywhere near as big as the plo?

[deathpasser]

Nope, they are very small groups. Only the PLO,Hamas and Islamic Jihad are major players in the fight against Israel, and the PLO put aside arms awhile back.

I would probably sympathize with Hamas most.

[MParenti]

It's hard to build 'solidarity between Israelis and Palestinians' when a good majority of Israelis think all Palestinians in the occupied territories should be ethnically cleansed, and a good 40% believe Israeli Arabs should be too. Whatever foibles the PLO and Hamas have, they are nothing compared to what they are up against. Israel has a war criminal as a Prime Minister and just appointed another war criminal as chief of staff of the army. The PLO and Hamas have BOTH renounced their claim to 72% of historic Palestine, and the PLO went even farther with their sellout deal (Oslo) which turned Palestine into a bunch of non-contiguous bantustans with nominal "sovereignty" over select areas. Meanwhile Labour and Likud both vociferously expand settlements, demolish homes, steal water supplies, and fire missiles at residences.

The left should stop finding reasons to backbite resistance movements and should stop our incessant need to splinter and factionalize everything.

[Organic Revolution]

i would not sympathize with any because they are not anti zionist they are anti jew

[MParenti]

Just like the ANC were somehow "anti-white" and the indigenous resistance to European settlement in the Americas was motivated by "anti-Europeanism". The anti-semitic card is a canard that Israel apologists like to beat over the head of anyone who dares speak against the crimes of the Israeli state.

[Organic Revolution]

i regonize that israel has commited crimes... but so have the PLO hammas ect.

[MParenti]

Of course the difference is the Israelis have the 4th most powerful military in the world while the Palestinians have stones. The Palestinians are being occupied, their resources stolen, their homes destroyed, their families evicted. The Palestinians have no prospects for employment and have to go through checkpoints and have passbooks to go anywhere. Israelis can live their lives normally. Occassionally the Israel-Palestine conflict will effect them, but most of the time it doesn't. Whereas Palestinians can't escape.

[Phalanx]

I'm not too sure if it's so one-sided. The Palestinians have many weapons at their desposal, and Hezbollah has artillery pieces and is funded by Iran. Where does it say Israel is the world's 4th largest military power?

[bolshevik butcher]

The PLO is nati-semetic? I thought it was a secular organization?

[MParenti]

Where are these "many weapons" sir? Hizb Allah has nothing more than RPGs and Iran is not exactly pouring billions in aid to Hizb Allah which the US is doing to Israel. Besides Hizb Allah no longer has much to do with the current conflict in Palestine. They successfully forced out the Israeli occupation of southern Lebanon in 2000. Where does it say Israel is the 4th most powerful? Jane's military statistics (which ranks the military power of all countries of the world) says it. It's not exactly a state secret.

Anyway, you need a subscription for Jane's, but here's a list of rankings for you.

http://www.nationmaster.com/country/is/Top-Rankings

[Phalanx]

Hezbollah does have artillery pieces and rockets. The leader of the organization even said that they had 12,000 rockets. And they also have a drone supplied by Iran, possibly more heavy weaponry

[novemba]

Originally posted by Chinghis [email protected] 8 2005, 08:16 PM
She is a fat capitalist pig
watch your mouth, she might be someone's mom, I'm sure you've never bought any thing commercial in your life, and that youre doing so much for the palestinian people...i'll im saying is everyone deserves respect and if not can we at least express our opinions in a civilized manor?

[Phalanx]

I'm not a glutton of capitalist products. I am also not one to slap another in the face by showing off my "well-earned" BMW to my suffering countrypeople. You're right, I'm not doing all I can to help the Palestinian people, but the thing is, I'm neutral in the whole affair. Does that mean I can't help them? Of course not. But I would like to help ones in urgent need first (namely, the people of the Democratic Republic of the Congo and Sudan).

Oh, and as far as I'm concerned, I don't care if she's YOUR mother, she's still a fat capitalist pig.

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2005, 03:20 PM
It's hard to build 'solidarity between Israelis and Palestinians' when a good majority of Israelis think all Palestinians in the occupied territories should be ethnically cleansed, and a good 40% believe Israeli Arabs should be too.
That sounds like an exagerration from the stuff I've read about Israeli politics. If it was that popular I think the Israeli regime woulda done it.

[Phalanx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2005, 09:20 PM
It's hard to build 'solidarity between Israelis and Palestinians' when a good majority of Israelis think all Palestinians in the occupied territories should be ethnically cleansed, and a good 40% believe Israeli Arabs should be too.
That sounds like total bullshit.

[il Commie]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2005, 06:38 PM

I do generally sympathise with the PLO, they don't do the ebst job it has to be said but it's better than an islamic fundementalist faction or the israelis.

I don't see why you would sympathize with any of these groups. Sympathizing with the people themselves -the victims on both sides, and those who are so desperate that they feel joining one of these groups is their only hope for success- is another matter. So far, the only group mentioned in this thread that I would even consider supporting is the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine.
Look, the DFLP are a nice group, the chairman of our party even met with their chairman in an effort to come out with some peace initiative like the Geneve Initiative. But they are not a big player.

PPP and DFLP side with the PLO, PFLP sides with Hamas and the Islamic Jihad. There is no option to not choose one of these sides when talking about palestinian politics.

The PLO are indeed a corrupted and far-from-prefect leadership, but everywhere in the West Bank and Gaza where the reign is in the hands of Mahmud Abbas and not in the hands of the israeli military or settlers - the situation of the palestinian residents is much better. This is a fact recognised by all human rights organizations and activists - in the territories ruled by the Palestinian Authority the palestinian residents can run a much normal life: go out of their homes, have a job, arrive at a hospital etc...

On the other hand, all the Hamas and Islamic Jihad do for the palestinians is bomb israeli busses filled with civillians. Do you see why a leftist should preffer the PLO?

Ofcourse it would be much better if the PPP, the "sister-party" of my party who support israeli-palestinian dialogue and a two-states peace solution, would be the major force in the palestinian politics. But it's not. So we should deal with reality.

[viva le revolution]

The PLO was originally founded as a secular pan-arab organization. However after the success of Hizbollah in Lebanon and the second intifada reactionary religious elements such as Hamas and Islamic jihad have gained a wider role mainly as a reaction to the IDF's constant occupation of Palestinian land.

[Black Dagger]

Just like the ANC were somehow "anti-white" and the indigenous resistance to European settlement in the Americas was motivated by "anti-Europeanism".

Except neither of those statements are true, that's the difference.



The anti-semitic card is a canard that Israel apologists like to beat over the head of anyone who dares speak against the crimes of the Israeli state.

I understand that claims of anti-semitism are used to criticism from the israeli state, but this is not one of those times. Hamas really supports the destruction of the israeli state, and of its jewish population.

[Severian]

Originally posted by Black [email protected] 14 2005, 05:46 PM
I understand that claims of anti-semitism are used to criticism from the israeli state, but this is not one of those times. Hamas really supports the destruction of the israeli state, and of its jewish population.
He said "all" the groups were anti-Jewish, so partly it is one of those times.

Hamas is anti-Jewish; its spokemen frequently identify "jews" as the enemy. And of course it favors the establishment of an Islamic state, a reactionary position for many reasons - among them, that it implies the oppression of religious minorities including Jews.

Your reasons for saying it's anti-Jewish are problematic, though: why is it anti-Semitic to seek to destroy the Israeli apartheid state? And in fact Hamas doesn't seek to destroy the Jewish population; its stated position is that Jews could leave or else live under the Islamic state.

As for the general thread topic; all these groups and leaderships are rotten IMO and something new will have to be created in the course of the struggle. Looking at Palestinian opinion polls, a lot of Palestinians seem to have drawn the same conclusion, a large number say they don't support any organization.

Hamas and Islamic Jihad are just reactionary. The PLO started as a middle-class revolutonary nationalist group - including its "Marxist" factions - and possible to support on that basis. But it's become straight-up bourgeois.

None of them has been able to put forward a strategy that can mobilize the masses of Palestinians. I'm not saying I know or could know what that strategy would be, you understand. Or that it would be easy for any Palestinian to figure out. But it's clear, from what hasn't happened, that none of these groups have been able to come up with one.

[viva le revolution]

The demise of the secular PLO is in my opinion Israel's own fault.
They secluded the non-jew palestinian people on the basis of religion and justified that on the basis of religion(the promised land), so of course the opposition will also be on the basisof religion(jihad). Israel's made this bed and should sleep in it.

[Severian]

What's more, Israel actually favored Hamas to undermine the PLO for a time; Hamas was legal when the PLO was illegal under the occupation.

But I have a hard time seeing how Hamas being a product of the Israeli state, makes Hamas good.

[viva le revolution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2005, 09:32 AM


But I have a hard time seeing how Hamas being a product of the Israeli state, makes Hamas good.
Exactly! It's no better in it's objectives than the Israeli government, it's a pure reactionary force arising out of religious politics of Israel.
But now hat it has been formed Israel has nobody to blame but itself. It's 2 reactionary forces at each other's throats.

[Black Dagger]

Your reasons for saying it's anti-Jewish are problematic, though: why is it anti-Semitic to seek to destroy the Israeli apartheid state?

I never said that. I said:

"Hamas really supports the destruction of the israeli state, and of its jewish population."

Ie. Hamas wants to destroy Israel, and kill its jewish inhabitants- they're an anti-semitic (in the jewish application of the word) organisation because they want to kill jews- that is why i said they are anti-semitic, it had nothing to do with their desire to abolish Israel and replace it with a muslim theocracy.



And in fact Hamas doesn't seek to destroy the Jewish population;.

Are you sure? In 'The Hamas Convenant' part of article 7 states, 'The time [of Redemption] will not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them, and until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees when the call is raised: "Oh Muslim, here is a Jew hiding! Come and kill him". An alternate version of this passage is,

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).

Driving the point home that Hamas's war is not only against Israel, but against all Jews, Yassin reportedly declared: 'Six million decendents of monkeys [ie. Jews] now rule in all the nations of the world, their day, too, will come. Allah! Kill them all, do not leave even one.'