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Entrails Konfetti
8th June 2005, 00:08
I found this interesting article of Che Guevara, how his politicis were supposebly towards Stalinism.

http://www.workersliberty.org/node/view/3076

Was he aware what Stalinism was about, does the time period have anything to do with it ?

The only thing I can conclude is that the things that were written on Che's politics in this article didn't seem very lucritive.

Organic Revolution
12th June 2005, 19:38
Che was a stalinist because he wanted the soviet union to help cuba out.

More Fire for the People
12th June 2005, 21:20
Stalinist described any Marxist-Leninist who support the Soviet Union, regardless if they were a true Stalinist or not.

tondraal
12th June 2005, 21:49
i thought that Che also wanted Cuba not to be a puppet under Americans and Soviets. That is why he wanted to reverse economy of Cuba (less sugar) which created a mass crisis.

MParenti
12th June 2005, 22:42
"Stalinist" is a meaningless epithet concocted by enemies of the Soviet Union.

Clarksist
12th June 2005, 22:54
Much like Hitler, during Stalin's time what Stalin was doing wasn't fully known. It was only till the effects were shown that most people realized how horrible he was.

Organic Revolution
13th June 2005, 05:51
Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2005, 03:42 PM
"Stalinist" is a meaningless epithet concocted by enemies of the Soviet Union.
no stalinist means IM FUCKING CRAZY

Hiero
13th June 2005, 06:22
Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2005, 08:54 AM
Much like Hitler, during Stalin's time what Stalin was doing wasn't fully known. It was only till the effects were shown that most people realized how horrible he was.
Che would of known what Stalin had "done", whatever that is and Che was aware of the Trot and Capitalist criticism of Stalin.

Che would of made the choice to analyse and decide if the criticism of Stalin were from a correct standpoint.

For instance W.E.B Dubios wrote this about Stalin in 1953.


His judgment of men was profound. He early saw through the flamboyance and exhibitionism of Trotsky, who fooled the world, and especially America. The whole ill-bred and insulting attitude of Liberals in the U.S. today began with our naive acceptance of Trotsky's magnificent lying propaganda, which he carried around the world. Against it, Stalin stood like a rock and moved neither right nor left, as he continued to advance toward a real socialism instead of the sham Trotsky offered.


So Trotsky had been critiscising Stalin for many years before Che become a revolutionary.

And Dubios wrote about the Kulaks.


but his kulaks clung tenaciously to capitalism and were near wrecking the revolution when Stalin risked a second revolution and drove out the rural bloodsuckers.

So he knew what happen in the Ukraine.

Che would of known what hapen in the USSR under Stalin's leadership. Che was around for Krushchevs speach.

codyvo
13th June 2005, 06:46
I don't think it would be fair to call Che a stalinist but I do think that he very much respected Stalin in that Stalin was the head of all anti-capitalist sentiment for so long. Che liked some of Stalin's personal sttributes but not Stalin the murderer.

RedSkinheadUltra
13th June 2005, 08:36
Had Che had knowledge of Stalin's crimes and betrayals and fully understood the rolel of the bureaucracy he would have never supported him. It doesn't match his ideology or personality. The same goes for all the liberal intellectuals and fellow-travelers in the West who adored Stalin and demonized Trotsky.

Stalin was still seen as a symbol of socialism and the Soviet Union as the defender of the October Revolution even though it had long been reversed.

Remember, Che later became disillusioned with the Soviet Union and was reading Trotsky's Permanent Revolution in the Bolivian jungle before he was captured and executed.

TC
13th June 2005, 10:55
Che was a stalinist because he wanted the soviet union to help cuba out.


Stalinist described any Marxist-Leninist who support the Soviet Union, regardless if they were a true Stalinist or not.

Lol. Thats just completely historically incorrect.


The Cuban revolution was in 1959. Stalin died in 1953. The Soviet government denounced Stalin in 1956 while the Chinese government continued to support Stalin's legacy.

So in fact, in 1959, to be a Stalinist like Che meant one was an against the Soviet leadership, a Chinese aligned Marxist-Leninist...whereas to be an anti-Stalinist like Fidel Castro was to be Soviet aligned.


Had Che had knowledge of Stalin's crimes and betrayals and fully understood the rolel of the bureaucracy he would have never supported him. It doesn't match his ideology or personality. The same goes for all the liberal intellectuals and fellow-travelers in the West who adored Stalin and demonized Trotsky.


lol you just want Che to have an ideology similar to your own cause he was sexy and easy to romanticize...like how could someone so seriously cool as che be something as uncool as a Stalinist.

But the fact is that Stalin's crimes and betrayel's and bureaucracy were all well known by 1956 after the special party commission investigated the purges and Khrushchev gave his highly publicized ironically titled "secret speech." Che (and all other pro-Stalin marxist-leninists post 1956) was therefore fully aware of Stalin's illigal activity, he simply thought that it was justified by the context and not sufficent reason to denounce him.



Stalin was still seen as a symbol of socialism and the Soviet Union as the defender of the October Revolution even though it had long been reversed.

Yeah, by Mao and Che, not by Castro or the Kremlin.



Remember, Che later became disillusioned with the Soviet Union and was reading Trotsky's Permanent Revolution in the Bolivian jungle before he was captured and executed.


That is not true you're confusing different facts about Guevara.

Che was disillusioned with the Soviet Union because he was a Mao supporter (thats to say a Stalinist) and therefore lost faith with the Soviet Union after the 1960 sino-soviet split. He was a life long Stalinist and met with Mao in 1965 after having publically denounced the current (anti-Stalinist) Soviet government.

Che read Trotsky's Permanent Revolution in Cuba when he was Minister of Industry and president of the national Bank, not in Bolivia. His copy was given to him by Ricardo Napuri, a Peruvian Trotskyist living in Cuba. Che read it, like anyone trying to educate themselves would read books from ideologies they disagree with, but he rejected Trotskyism because of it holds the centrality of the industrial working class and claims that only a continous working class revolution can build socialism while Che felt that, empirically speaking, the peasent based revolution in China and Cuba without a working class also builds socialism (if not, the only way to build socialism at the time).

You can read a reference to this here:
http://www.redflag.org.uk/frontline/seven/07che.html


And for the record so i'm not accused of being an e-g stalin kiddie, i think Castro was entirely right to side with the Soviet Union and denounce Stalin...China couldn't have afforded Cuba the protection or economic aid it needed and holding onto Stalin as Mao did passed his point of political relevance was a mistake that the Americans exploited in the Sino-Soviet split.

MParenti
13th June 2005, 13:24
The "crazies" you refer to sacrificed 25 million heroes in the defeat of global fascism and also turned Russia into an industrialized superpower.

Can people please differentiate between being a "Mao supporter" and a so-called "Stalinist". Mao had no real love for Stalin, but opposed the revisionists. Mao's peasant-based revolution and also embrace of third world nationalism and opposition to what he perceived as Soviet expansionism made him annoyed with the Soviets long before the Sino-Soviet split. It began with the Soviets treatment of the CCP during its inception while it was fighting the KMT. The Soviets aided and supported the KMT and largely did not think revolution in China was possible, they also did not support rural-based guerilla warfare. When the Communists were coming to power after WWII the Soviets actually left and took everything they had brought with them.

fernando
13th June 2005, 14:24
Che was disillusioned with the Soviet Union because he was a Mao supporter (thats to say a Stalinist) and therefore lost faith with the Soviet Union after the 1960 sino-soviet split. He was a life long Stalinist and met with Mao in 1965 after having publically denounced the current (anti-Stalinist) Soviet government.

I think that Che, and also Mao were dissapointed in the USSR policy of 'peaceful coexistence' with the US. While Che wanted to spread the Revolution across the Third World, the USSR wanted things to sort of stay as they were in order to "keep the peace", Che saw this and Mao saw this!

YKTMX
15th June 2005, 18:54
As I've said before, Che was an extremely poor Marxist in terms of a theoretical understanding, most noticeably on the historical role of the proletariat. He personally admired Stalin, that seems to be obvious, although so did many individuals. Contrary to what Hierro says, the Trotskyist claims about the Soviet Union were not widely known, mainly because, of course, Stalin and his apparatchiks suppressed and murdered the Trotskyist movement.

Che was, above all, an anti-imperialist and he was particuarly concerned about the effects of American Imperialism in South America. What nation portrayed itself as the enemy of capitalist imperialism at this time? The Soviet Union - led by the indomitable Stalin. Of course, this was a total hoax, Stalin was quite willing to appeal to the capitalist nations as long as they agredd to his dream of a reborn Russian Empire over the Slavs. Nevertheless, the Soviet Union appealed to people who saw themselves as anti-American, like Che.

Now, how does one gain a political "username"? Is it by self-attachment? If this is so then Kim Jong-il, Pol Pot and indeed Stalin are all "socialists", because that's what they called themselves. Or, do we judge someone's ideology as much by ACTION as theory. The answer is of course, yes.

Now, what were the actions of Che with which we can judge his ideology, and how do these stand up to our modern view of the actions of the Stalinism?

If Che was a Stalinist, here, looking at the historical record of Stalinists, is what he would have done.

1) First, he would have placed himself at the head of a massive bureaucracy. From this position, he would oversee the creation of a new Cuban oligarchy who could gain from the Labour of the Cuban masses. Did Che do this? No, instead, he goes off to Bolivia to die in the jungle? Can we see Stalin, Beria, Hoxha, Caucescu et al doing likewise? I'll leave that for you to answer.

2) He would have created a disgusting self-laudatory personality cult. Portraits of Uncle Che would have adorned every public and private building in Cuba. Did this happen? No.

3) He would actively strived to suppress and, if neccessary, liqudate sections of the large Cuban peasantry in the name of insane "industrialisation" policies. Che WAS in favour of Industrialising Cuba but he never favoured the kind of mass terror employed by Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot.

These three are just illustrative. Make up your own mind.

Bolshevist
15th June 2005, 19:44
Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2005, 09:54 PM
Much like Hitler, during Stalin's time what Stalin was doing wasn't fully known. It was only till the effects were shown that most people realized how horrible he was.
Have you ever heard of the Hearst press, or Robert Conquest?

YKTMX
15th June 2005, 19:58
Yes, but even I wouldn't accept a word Conquest or Pipes or any similar people said about Stalin.

We're talking about radical socialist critiques of Stalinism, not bourgeois cold warriors.

Bolshevist
15th June 2005, 20:04
You mean Trotskyists? Those are very radical socialists, all 10 of them :P

YKTMX
15th June 2005, 20:13
Yeah, and you just can't move for Stalinists in the movement today, eh?

"Bukharin was guilty this" and "the Hitler-Stalin pact was reasonable", I hear this all the time from people.

I'm sure you'll be shocked by this but the 1930's actually ended a while ago.

Bolshevist
15th June 2005, 20:27
I find it amusing that a Trotskyite is a moderator at a site dedicated to a Marxist-Leninist ("Stalinist") :lol:

YKTMX
15th June 2005, 20:32
I find it amusing that you aren't reading a thread in which your posting. And the term is TrostkyIST.

bed_of_nails
16th June 2005, 05:52
Maybe he was just supporting the only extremely prominant Socialist figurehead he knew about?

Hiero
16th June 2005, 09:28
1) First, he would have placed himself at the head of a massive bureaucracy.

Even if he wanted to, he did not have the power to remove Fidel and take lead of the country.

So we have no idea what Che would of been like in head of the Communist Party.

Saint-Just
16th June 2005, 14:51
Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2005, 04:52 AM
Maybe he was just supporting the only extremely prominant Socialist figurehead he knew about?
Did you read the previous posts in this thread. In fact, the lies concocted about Stalin were well known at this time. Many of them were created in the 30s by the Hearst press. It was also unpopular to be a Stalin supporter in Khrushchev's USSR since Khrushchev denounced Stalin in 1956.

"He consulted... Josef Stalin on Marxism..." ("Che Guevara, A Revolutionary Life", Pg. 48, Paragraph 4)

"I have sworn before a picture of the old and mourned comrade Stalin that I won't rest until I see those capitalist octopuses annihilated." ("Che Guevara, A Revolutionary Life", Pg. 126, Paragraph 6)

"In case poor Beatriz harbored any doubts about where he was coming from, he signed the letter 'Stalin II'." ("Che Guevara, A Revolutionary Life", Pg. 167, Paragraph 6)


"In Che's critique of the Stalinist manual, he pointed out that since Lenins writings, little had been added to update the evaluations of Marxism except a few things written by Stalin and Mao." ("Che Guevara, A Revolutionary Life", Pg. 697, Paragraph 3)

OleMarxco
16th June 2005, 18:42
Riiight. And where is there factual, if not audial, proof he said just that? ;)

Saint-Just
17th June 2005, 01:31
The bourgeois liberal that wrote that particular biography of Che is highly unlikely to have attempted to falsely depict Che as a Stalinist. The proof is in the letters Che wrote and the speeches he made.

TC
17th June 2005, 08:00
Contrary to what Hierro says, the Trotskyist claims about the Soviet Union were not widely known, mainly because, of course, Stalin and his apparatchiks suppressed and murdered the Trotskyist movement.


You have to make a distinction between uniquely Trotskyist claims (i.e. Stalinist bureaucracy created a degenorate worker's state), Nazi inspired capitalist claims (i.e. Stalin murdered tens of millions of people, deliberately caused famine in the Ukraine) and claims about Stalin that were widely enough supported by fact that the Communist Party of the Soviet Union accepted them (i.e. Stalin illigally purged and murdered thousands of party members,).

You are simply incorrect to say that Stalin "murdered the Trotskyist movement" when there were dozens of Trotskyist parties internationally, in Europe, in North America, in Latin America, all spreading the Trotskyist claims on the Soviet Union. As i said in my last post, Che did read Trotsky so he was aware of Trotskyists positions. With the American propaganda machine, everyone is aware of the rightwing claims about Stalin, its just that educated people know they're not true (Stalin was indirectly a mass murderer but in the thousands not the tens of millions). And because khrushchev's speech on Stalin was several year's before the Cuban revolution, Che certaintly knew about Stalin's purges.


a. What nation portrayed itself as the enemy of capitalist imperialism at this time? The Soviet Union - led by the indomitable Stalin.

No i think it was The Soviet Union, led by the semi-domitable khrushchev :-p.

Remember the Cuban revolution began after Stalin died. You can't attribute Che's support of Stalin to Che's anti-imperialist support of the Soviet Union.


Of course, this was a total hoax, Stalin was quite willing to appeal to the capitalist nations as long as they agredd to his dream of a reborn Russian Empire over the Slavs.

a. Stalin was willing to appeal to the capitalist nations as long as they agreed to his dream of...preventing the Nazis from conquering the Soviet Union and killing everyone. Stalin might not have been a great guy in a lot of ways but you have to have a balanced perspective on him and to me that seems pretty reasonable.

b. How did you come up with Stalin wanting a "reborn Russian Empire over the Slavs." First of all you just made that up, out of nothing, Stalin never said or did anything to suggest that that was a 'dream of his.' Of course Stalin wanted to spread socialism, so did Trotsky, Trotsky wanted to spread it right into Germany which is percisely what Stalin did. Secondly, it makes no sense. Stalin wasn't a Russian, he spoke Russian as a second language with an accent, the culture he identified with was Georgian not Russian which is why he used Koba as a nickname, why would he want a "russian empire over the slavs".



Now, what were the actions of Che with which we can judge his ideology, and how do these stand up to our modern view of the actions of the Stalinism?


And by 'modern view' you mean "trotskyist dogmatic view." The way you describe "stalinism" juding by his actual, historically documented actions, Stalin wasn't a Stalinist either! Maybe you could judge people's ideologies by what they say they are and how they apply them rather then simply projecting your own ideology onto people you identify with.





1) First, he would have placed himself at the head of a massive bureaucracy. From this position, he would oversee the creation of a new Cuban oligarchy who could gain from the Labour of the Cuban masses.

I've never heard a good explaination for how the Soviet Union was a "massive bureaucracy" degenorate workers state and so on and Cuba wasn't or isn't (or for that matter the Paris Commune wasn't). There were bureaucrats in Cuba to keep things running the same way that there were in the Soviet Union, including the Soviet Union under Lenin and Trotsky. It seems like "massive bureaucracy" is a code word for "people who don't take orders from Trotsky."



2) He would have created a disgusting self-laudatory personality cult. Portraits of Uncle Che would have adorned every public and private building in Cuba. Did this happen? No.

What do you mean it didn't happen??? What about that massive Che iron sculptor in Revolution Square or Che murals everywhere in Cuba or Che on everyones T-shirt or Che flags or Che statues? You use the phrase "Uncle Che" but forget that "Che" is a spanish interjection thats used as "buddy" or "pal", so he's already "Buddy Guevara!"..whereas "Uncle Joe" is only used by english speaking Communists, in reference to 'uncle sam' it wasn't used by people in the Soviet Union so its hardly evidence of a "personality" cult whereas they did call him "che."

Of course Che didn't do anything to construct or facilitate his "personality cult", people who liked him simply wanted to show support for him as a personality, but the same is true of Stalin.



3) He would actively strived to suppress and, if neccessary, liqudate sections of the large Cuban peasantry in the name of insane "industrialisation" policies. Che WAS in favour of Industrialising Cuba but he never favoured the kind of mass terror employed by Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot.

OH yeah like anyone would simply want to "liqudate" lots of farmers for no reason whatsoever. Please, nothing of the sort is backed up by real data in the case of Stalin or Mao...and as for Pol Pot did did percisely the opposite, he was trying for a strictly agrarian society not an industrial one.



"the Hitler-Stalin pact was reasonable"

You don't have to be a 'Stalinist' to think the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was reasonable...it was a reasonable way of delaying the inevitable war between the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany so as to give the Soviet Union more time to prepair. How is that unreasonable? Should Stalin have just have told the Nazis "Oh please, invade eastern Europe, I don't care about it!"

Severian
17th June 2005, 08:39
Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2005, 03:55 AM
So in fact, in 1959, to be a Stalinist like Che meant one was an against the Soviet leadership, a Chinese aligned Marxist-Leninist...whereas to be an anti-Stalinist like Fidel Castro was to be Soviet aligned.
No, in fact, Che did not side with Mao in the Sino-Soviet split, nor was there any division between Che and Fidel on this.Read the sticky thread - second to last post. (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=1227&st=40) People who repeat this rumor can never support it with any statement from Che, and they ignore the statements Che did make.


What do you mean it didn't happen??? What about that massive Che iron sculptor in Revolution Square or Che murals everywhere in Cuba or Che on everyones T-shirt or Che flags or Che statues?

No Fidel statues though. The Cuban Revolution has never put up statues and murals of living leaders. No quasi-religious personality cult aimed at making the dictator unchallengeable.

Severian
17th June 2005, 10:09
Originally posted by EL [email protected] 7 2005, 05:08 PM
I found this interesting article of Che Guevara, how his politicis were supposebly towards Stalinism.

http://www.workersliberty.org/node/view/3076

Was he aware what Stalinism was about, does the time period have anything to do with it ?

The only thing I can conclude is that the things that were written on Che's politics in this article didn't seem very lucritive.
Yeah, that article's not even factually accurate. Repeats the nonsense about Che wanting a nuclear war. You name it. Slanders Che but the Stalinists of course take these slanders for compliments. Detailed response at the end of this post.

About the issues: Stalinism does not refer solely to the individual Stalin. Nor to the Soviet Union.

It refers to the rule of a privileged bureaucratic caste over a workers' state - the people Russians call apparatchiks or nomenklatura. To the political "ideology" of that caste - in reality just a set of excuses and rationalizations for its interests. And to the parties around the world it franchised as pawns and bargaining chips to further its diplomatic deals with the capitalist states. Although the feuding fragments of this caste are no longer interested in sponsoring such parties, or in most cases even pretending to be communist, the term Stalinist is still used to refer to the declining remnants of the franchised official "Communist" parties.

Che's politics, and the politics that led the Cuban Revolution, were the opposite of Stalinist politics. If this were not true, the Cuban Revolution would never have even happened. Witness the contrast between the course of the revolutionary July 26 Movement, and of Cuba's official Moscow-franchised party, the Popular Socialist Party. This party's course had remained fundamentally the same under both Khrushev and Stalin.

The PSP, like other "Communist Parties", held that since Latin American countries weren't ready for socialism, the thing to do was support some supposedly progressive or "national" bourgeoisie. This course led the PSP to even join Batista's cabinet during his first dictatorship in the 1940s - for those who want to blame all of this opportunism on "Khrushevite revisionists", note that the worst betrayal actually occurred on Stalin's watch. Later they distanced themselves from this open support to the regime, but joined the revolution only shortly before its victory.

(This wasn't just in Latin America either. It was a worldwide policy, perhaps best symbolized by the fact Chiang Kai-Shek was once an honored guest at a Congress of the Communist International.)

The Cuban Revolution both practiced and preached an opposite policy: "In the actual historical conditions of Latin America, the national bourgeoisie cannot lead the antifeudal and anti-imperialist struggle. Experience shows that in our nations that class, even when its interests are in contradiction to those of Yankee imperialism, has been incapable of confronting it, for the national bourgeoisie is paralyzed by fear of social revolution and frightened by the cry of the exploited masses." Second Declaration of Havana (http://www.themilitant.com/2002/6607/660750.html)

The projected this across Latin America with their sponsorhip of guerilla attempts, in open opposition to the official Moscow-franchised Communist Parties. One of which betrayed Che in Bolivia by refusing to provide the support it had promised him.

The July 26 Movement merged with the PSP, and with a group called the Revolutionary Directorate. The principal leader of the PSP, Anibal Escalante, became the organization secretary of the merged organization. He used this post in basically the same way Stalin used his comparable post in the Russian Communist Party: to become the head of an emerging bureaucratic caste, to promote his cronies from the PSP while sidelining revolutionaries who'd fought in the Sierra and blocking revolutionary-minded rank-and-file workers from joining the party.

But unlike in the USSR, the bureaucratic counterrevolution was defeated; Escalante was fired from his post and expelled from the party in 1962 and went into exile in Prague. His organizational policies were reversed. The only former PSPer in the central leadership of the current Cuban Communist Party is Carlos Rafael Rodriguez. Who, IMO, is no longer a Stalinist.

Che briefly mentions the Escalante affair in "Socialism and Man in Cuba", (http://www.marxists.org/archive/guevara/1965/03/man-socialism.htm) an article which clearly shows his divergence from the Stalinist approach on questions of freedom and consciousness in the transition to socialism...he makes the contrast explicitly on the question of artistic freedom.

To focus on some positive comments Che made about Stalin personally, while ignoring all the real political issues....is to obscure rather than clarify things.

****
OK, back to the article linked at the beginning of the thread. First, it relies mainly on books by Castaneda, a rabid anticommunist with no regard for truth or facts, and Anderson, who while usually factually accurate, spins everything to put Che in the most negative possible light. For example, while Anderson acknowledges Che refused to accept and special material benefit from his government posts, he spins this as a fanatical rejection of life and joy.

I'm just going to point out some of the more glaring untruths; to cover every error of reasoning would take too much time and space.


Whether or not he was a member, we know Guevara played a central role in integrating PSP cadres into the July 26 Movement. In summer 1957 the PSP sent a young militant Pablo Ribalta to work with Guevara, and he was soon given responsibility for organising political education classes among the guerrillas (Anderson pp.296-297).

So? The July 26 Movement sought to bring every possible group into the struggle to bring down Batista. This was absolutely correct, and its the mark of a sectarian to complain that the PSP was not excluded.


Guevara also was one of the key figures pushing for the Stalinisation of the Cuban economy from 1959 onwards. He advocated the collectivisation of agriculture and the nationalisation of industry, in his capacity as head of the industrial development in the agrarian reform institute (INRA) and as governor of the National Bank.

In fact, Cuba has never carried out a forced collectivization policy, in contrast to every Stalinist-led state AFAIK. Horrors, Guevara nationalized industry, and converted some land to state farms while distributing other land to the peasants. Shows he was a communist, not a Stalinist.


He was also head of the Ministry of Industry from 1961 to 1965, responsible for Cuba’s bureaucratic planning based on Eastern European methods (Anderson p.462).

In fact, Che had his own ideas about economic planning different from the Soviet system. He favored reducing the role of market mechanisms as much as practical, and adopting policies which would encourage the growth of communist consciousness. See Carlos Tablada's book about Che's economic ideas, plus articles by Che reprinted in New International magazine issue #8 and the collection "Che Guevara and the Cuban Revolution."

The only true substance in this point, as the last, is that Che helped set up a planned economy.


However he still told Russian delegates that he was “a true friend of the Soviet Union” as late as January 1964 (Anderson p.625, p.585).

Which should balance out his compliments to Stalin and Mao, for the diehard admirers of those two.


Guevara came to be regarded as pro-Chinese from 1963 – calling Mao a “wise man” (Castañeda p.253).

Oy. "Came to be regarded" - the last refuge of those fleeing objective reality. I don't know who "regarded" him this way, or why, but they were wrong. See my last post.


In the early 1960s he repeated the old Stalinist lies about Trotskyism, despite the Cuban Trotskyists’ rather uncritical “defence of the revolution”.

Misleading in the first and hilariously wrong in the second part.

The "Trotskyist" group in Cuba was part of Juan Posadas' "Latin American Bureau" a downright insane group disavowed by everyone else considering themselves Trotskyist.

In reality: The Posadist group took an ultra-left, provocative position arguing, in 1961, that the Cuban government should forcibly expel the American military base at Guantanamo Bay and going to the extent of trying to organise workers in the town of Guantanamo to march on the nearby military base. This alarmed the Cuban government which looked the other way when, in April 1961, a small Stalinist group, the Partido Socialista Popular, raided the headquarters of the Posadas group and smashed their printing press which was in the process of printing an edition of Trotsky's The Permanent Revolution.

Guevara, when asked in an interview about this event, commented:

"That did happen. It was an error. It was an error committed by a functionary of second rank. They smashed the plates. It should not have been done. However, we consider the Trotskyist party to be acting against the revolution. For example, they were taking the line that the Revolutionary Government is petty bourgeois, and were calling on the proletariat to exert pressure on the government and even to carry out another revolution in which the proletariat would come to power. This was prejudicing the discipline necessary at this stage."
source (http://encycl.opentopia.com/term/J._Posadas#Cuba)

Among Posadas' amusingly insane positions, was the belief that Mao was taking his line from Posadas' publications.


Yet Guevara’s response to Sam Russell of the British Communist Party was that if the missiles had been under the control of the Cubans, they would have fired them against the US – in particular New York (Castañeda p.231, Anderson p.545).

Anybody ever play the game "telephone"? Guevara tells Russell tells Castaneda and Anderson....even if the British Kremlin-stooge Russell was honest, there's plenty of room for misunderstanding. And his honesty is questionable: the Kremlin, seeking to fend off Cuban criticism of its decision to make a deal in which Cuba was not consulted nor its interests protected, has long sought to portray the Cuban revolutionary leaders as madmen seeking nuclear war. The capitalists are of course not averse to this.

The cables between Fidel and Khrushev, and the public statements by Castro, Guevara, and others, tell a different story.

During the crisis, Cuba did advocate firing antiaircraft missiles to bring down U.S. spy planes overflying Cuba...those missiles were under Soviet control, so they were not fired except for one occasion when a U-2 was brought down by an officer acting without orders from Moscow. Probably this is what Guevara actually told Russell.

One should always be wary of some guy claiming based on alleged private comments that somebody's real policy was different from what all his actions and public statements say.


Guevara’s peasant guerrilla strategy was far from the Marxist conception of socialism as the self-emancipation of the working class.

He never focussed on the working class as the crucial agent of change:
In Cuba 1933 soviets had been set up in the sugar mills;
Bolivia - militant history of struggle – miners 1952 ;
Argentina also had a vibrant workers’ movement e.g. Cordoba.
All ignored

What is actually ignored - by these notes - is the active participation of the working class in the Cuban Revolution. From the agricultural wage-workers who joined the Rebel Army, to the general strike which dealt the final blow to the regime, specifically to the attempt to set up a military junta to replace Batista.

Also, a number of those joining the guerilla and the support network in Bolivia were in fact miners. See Fertile Ground by Rodolfo Saldana - a former miner who headed the underground support network, and details miners' efforts to aid the guerillas. See also the ELN's communique to the miners, included in any decent edition of the Bolivian Diary.

TC
17th June 2005, 10:59
Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 07:39 AM

No, in fact, Che did not side with Mao in the Sino-Soviet split, nor was there any division between Che and Fidel on this.Read the sticky thread - second to last post. (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=1227&st=40) People who repeat this rumor can never support it with any statement from Che, and they ignore the statements Che did make.
http://www.margencero.com/musica/che/che-mao.jpg





"Once more I could convince myself how terrible the capitalist octopuses are. I swore on a picture of our old and bewailed comrade Stalin, I swore not to rest before these capitalist octopuses are destroyed."


-Ernesto Guevara, Costa Rica, November 1953


He rejected Khrushchev’s speech in 1956 denouncing the crimes of Stalin as “imperialist propaganda” and defended the Russian invasion of Hungary that crushed the workers’ uprising there in the same year...
Guevara came to be regarded as pro-Chinese from 1963 – calling Mao a “wise man.".
http://www.workersliberty.org/node/view/3076

notes from a talk by Paul Hampton at the AWL London forum 16 September 2004, siting Jorge G. Castaneda's Companero : The Life and Death of Che Guevara
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...=books&n=507846 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0679759409/qid=1119000977/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/002-0704421-2501620?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)



"The Argentine was determined to push ahead with the armed struggle in Latin America, he distrusted the Kremlin’s policy of peaceful co-existence, and in the Sino-Soviet schism, he was on the Chinese side."

-Vitali Korionov, , deputy chief of the Central Committee’s America’s Department, 1964, after having met with Che in Moscow.

Severian
19th June 2005, 05:49
Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2005, 03:59 AM

He rejected Khrushchev’s speech in 1956 denouncing the crimes of Stalin as “imperialist propaganda” and defended the Russian invasion of Hungary that crushed the workers’ uprising there in the same year...
Guevara came to be regarded as pro-Chinese from 1963 – calling Mao a “wise man.".
http://www.workersliberty.org/node/view/3076

notes from a talk by Paul Hampton at the AWL London forum 16 September 2004, siting Jorge G. Castaneda's Companero : The Life and Death of Che Guevara
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...=books&n=507846 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0679759409/qid=1119000977/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/002-0704421-2501620?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)

God, that's even more pathetic than your posts making excuses for Chinese police today trying to break up peasant's protests.

You even cited the article linked at the beginning of the thread, which I already debunked in detail. And Castaneda's pack of lies.

Like Sherlock Holmes' dog which didn't bark, the most significant thing is what wasn't in your post: any relevant quote from Che.