Dont Hate the USA [Archive]

queen of diamonds

29th September 2002, 09:21

I don't hate the US, just most of their policies....
I also hate those people in America who are ignorant & choose to be so.....I've met a couple, so they definitely exist...in what numbers, I'll leave to you :)
The reason why so many people here hate America is because it embodies everything leftists hate, but yes, I agree, to hate the country is not an accurate embodiment of the socialist spirit.
It takes a special kind of patriotism to try and change your country for the better, rather than simply loving, or turning a blind eye to its injustices.

LeninCCCP

29th September 2002, 09:23

I agree i try to show peopple their stupidity for following blindly but they just dont learn

Mahdavikia

29th September 2002, 09:25

you are right, we too often make the amalgam

LeninCCCP

29th September 2002, 09:48

in what context are you using amalgam Mahdavikia?

redstar2000

29th September 2002, 15:01

Just what is it, LeninCCCP, that you "love" about America? That's not a trick question; I'm really curious.

What is a "country" or "nation" that it should be loved or hated? It's not as if it could love or hate us back.

What I'm getting at here is that "country"/"nation" is what the deconstructionists would call a "construct"--an artificial entity designed to...well, to win BRAND LOYALITY. It has no real, objective existence at all; like Zeus, if people stopped believing in it, it would disappear.

And why should we believe in it? Yes, governments are real...and ours is well worth hating, no question about it. Classes are certainly real; the difference between Ken Lay (Enron) and the poor bastards he fucked is as obvious as shit on the dinnertable.

But "countries"/"nations"? We are used to thinking of them as "real" (people once talked, and some still do, about something called "national character"--the Brits are "shopkeepers", the Germans are "warriors", etc.). It seems to me that this is all simply nonsense...like religion or "racial science".

It follows from this that I don't think there is any such thing as "good" patriotism/nationalism, or "progressive" patriotism/nationalism. What is real is class struggle--workers vs. bosses. Everything else is a (probably conscious) distraction...or worse.

queen of diamonds

29th September 2002, 15:10

That's true, but there's plenty to love abt a country - it's geographical forms, its people, its spirit....a country is a combination of many things. Personally, I'm not a patriotic person, but I can see how people could be.

I think there's plenty more to life than class struggle - does that mean in the ultimate Utopia, or the end stages of communism, when it goes into anarchy, that there is no life? There are more problems than class struggle (ingorance being one of the biggest), and plenty to rejoice in.

Guardia Bolivariano

29th September 2002, 15:16

That's the key to understanding our fight ,the US people are a great people they have many diferent points of view and some of them are commies just like us so anyone that plans to fight the people and not the goverment that is the real monster, will fail.So wen we say fuck the US we really should say FUCK THE WHITE HOUSE, FUCK THE FBI , FUCK THE CIA etc...

El Brujo

29th September 2002, 21:23

Thats generalizing. Every country has good people and bad people. What I really fuckin hate is the air of superiority that brainwashed americans have. In being patriotic, there is a difference between simply being proud of your culture and believeing its superior to others. I love Argentina but I don't believe its superior to other countries. Those fanatical "either your with us or against us" assholes are the ones I hate.

LeninCCCP

30th September 2002, 00:45

I hate the people in my country who have no knowledge of history. Whats sad is that most people dont even know who Lenin is!!!

Rob

30th September 2002, 00:52

I agree with Lenin (wow, eh?) and El Brujo. It's one thing to love your country, it's another to be ignorant.

redstar2000

30th September 2002, 01:05

I'm sorry, QueenofDiamonds, for the lack of clarity in my last posting.

Of course, there are things that are real, if extremely fragile, besides class struggle. And, insofar as I can dimly glimpse the outlines of a classless society, I'm sure there will be many things that will be real that we can hardly even imagine (what could a 10th century serf imagine about 21st century capitalism?).

But I was talking about NOW. Besides class war, the things that we think of as "real" are extremely fragile or, like "nations"/"countries", simply mystical abstractions...like angels, lucky numbers or intellectual property.

Of course, things like love and friendship are real...but always vulnerable to the encroachment of capitalist greed. Plus, you can buy them like any other commodity if you are so inclined and have the money.

Of course, landscapes are real...until some developers
(howdy, George; howdy, Dick) decide that there's some money to be made by transforming beauty into ugliness. A slogan for the new age of global capitalism: "Utter Desolation--It's Our Most Important Product!"

The "spirit of a people"? Beats me what that could possibly mean. I think you'd have a really hard time pinning down the "spirit" of Che-lives. But that would be easy compared to figuring out the "spirit" of a people. Example: the Danes were once the terror of Europe, looting and plundering and raping and killing everyone who had the misfortune to fall into their grasp. Now Denmark is generally considered one of the most civilized and admired countries in the world. Which was the real "spirit" of the Danes? Or is it, what I contend, that the word is essentially meaningless?!

PS: El Brujo is quite right! Americans (and I have the shame to be one) are the most insufferably arrogant assclowns on the planet...I think it comes with being master of a global empire.

LeninCCCP

30th September 2002, 01:13

Im A Friggin American to!!!
And I dont like It!!!

(Edited by LeninCCCP at 5:13 pm on Sep. 29, 2002)

Red Circle

30th September 2002, 01:17

I'm liking what redstar has to say, and i'd like to hear more of it

canikickit

30th September 2002, 01:28

redstar2000
Perhaps if you weren't American you would understand what to love about a country. The culture, music, landscape, pass-times. The people, the majority of people from the same country share similar traits.
Your comments about the Danes holds no water with me. Those Danes are dead. They no longer exist except in history, therefore the "spirit of a nation" can change.
I love Irish music, I love the Irish landscape, I love the Irish pubs, most Irish people are tossers but I can still feel a camaderie with them, we use the same expressions and a lot of us feel the same way about certain things.
There are (proportionatly) a significant number of Irish people on this board (and I mean people born and raised in Ireland), I believe that Irish people have a yearning in them for justice because of the fact that our country was ruled by imperialistic oppressors for almost 800 years. I have never been in any difficulty financial, I have never been beaten up, I have lived a pretty easy and carefree life. Yet for some reason I feel it in my blood to fight against oppression, to rail against the brutality of imperialistic dogs. I support the underdog, not as a conscious desicion, it just happens.

As El Brujo pointed out, to love ones country does not mean disliking others. I find it foolish for people to think so, I love my mother, that doesn't mean I dislike other women.

Although it may be unrequited, I love my country.

Red Circle

30th September 2002, 01:43

I don't know who to listen to now.. you both sound right.. I've had a girlfriend so long, i've lost the ability to form opinions of my own.

The government? Yeah, i agree, the government here leaves a lot to be desired. But the government isn't the spirit.

p.s. i'm only a minor, if my responses seem ignorant or stupid, don't pay attention to them. I'm here to learn

Red Circle

30th September 2002, 02:25

Maybe my point is, there are too many things to appreciate in this country to hate it.

MJM

30th September 2002, 02:43

Quote: from Red Circle on 2:25 pm on Sep. 30, 2002
Maybe my point is, there are too many things to appreciate in this country to hate it.

Change country to world and it's the same. Borders are there to make an us and them mentality. A division among the working class, divided and conquored.
I love no country more than any other, how could I, lol, it's absurd. So is hating any country.

(Edited by MJM at 2:44 pm on Sep. 30, 2002)

canikickit

30th September 2002, 02:57

I fail to see how you can think it absurd. Love for a country does not create divisions.

Red Circle

30th September 2002, 03:06

Absurd? explain...

MJM

30th September 2002, 03:19

Of course it does. If you love one country and it's people more than another, then the division is right before your eyes. You will always favour you country men over others.
If the working class prior to WWI hadn't of had these divisions the war would never have happened. When the international called to avoid the war the people who loved their country chose to ignore the idea and fight for the ruling class.

Prior to WWI all the world’s socialists had unanimously agreed to adhere to the manifesto passed at the International Socialist Congress in Basle, Switzerland in 1912. This manifesto stipulated 1) that the nature of the impending war was imperialist in the sense that it would inevitably be a competitive war conducted to further the economic interests of each warring nation’s capitalist class at the expense of the others, no matter who “started” the war. And 2) that “ socialists must take advantage of the economic and political crisis it will cause so as to hasten the downfall of capitalist class rule.”

In August of 1914, war broke out in Europe and with it came the end of socialist anti-war unity. Almost every socialist party, to one degree or another, came to the support of its own capitalist class, thereby abandoning the principle of international working class solidarity. Some simply failed to oppose the war. Others, while not openly defending the war, (and all the while praying for peace), certainly did not attempt to hasten the end of capitalist class rule. However, the Bolshevik Party was one of a few notable exceptions.

About Lenin:

What he thought was needed was not just any kind of unity, but a unity for revolutionary struggle against national chauvinism.

(Edited by MJM at 3:20 pm on Sep. 30, 2002)

canikickit

30th September 2002, 04:18

I don't agree with that at all. I write it off as horseshit. Yes there are people who take nationalism to extremes and believe they are superior to others purely because they were born in a different country. That does not mean that someone who loves their country will automatically do the same.
I can only speak for myself, but in my school I one of my better friends was German and I hung around with some of the Spanish guys. I didn't care that they weren't Irish, just like they didn't care that I wasn't Spanish. They also loved their country, probably as much as I loved mine. We still got along we still were friends. There is a difference between liking your culture and where you are from than xenophobia.
I never said my country comes before anything, just that I love it.

These type of generalisations would be funny if they weren't so offensive.

I love Ireland because it is my home, don't you love your home?

munkey soup

30th September 2002, 04:45

I'm a U.S. citizen. I was born here, I've lived a good life here, and I'll probably die here. Heck, I probably won't even stray too far from New Mexico. Which might help me make my point. I live here in NM. I love this state. I see many, many, many things wrong in this state. So I wanna change that. Does that mean I hate other states and think NM superior to them, no (except Texas, it is my duty as a New Mexican to hate Texas).

The same goes for Nation/States (international states, that is). I realize other States are getting fucked over royally by the U.S.. But I'm not gonna leave this country and become an expatriot. I'm gonna stay here and try and change things. That doesn't mean I think the U.S. (or any nation/state for that matter) is superior to any other State.

MJM

30th September 2002, 05:18

I think national pride and love of your country is stupid and I can clearly see the link in the quotes I posted in my previous post to why this is the case.

*I love my country
*country goes to war
*all the people in my country are scared and called to fight for the beloved homeland
*I feel I must defend the country I love from the bad other country I don't love
*I'm off shooting my fellow working class brothers

Love of a country can easily be twisted in this way as it has been millions of times in the past and chances are it will be again.
No I don't love my country I love the people, but I love people the world over.

canikickit

30th September 2002, 05:23

That is a generalisation. I find it offensive.

Red Circle

30th September 2002, 05:26

Let's try analogies... I love my mother, but i don't hate everyone elses mother. I love my dog, but i don't hate the neighbor's dog. I love Dr. Pepper, but i don't hate Pepsi.

Red Circle

30th September 2002, 05:33

another thing, why are we calling each other's views "stupid" and "horse shit"? what's so hard about merely "disagreeing" with each other? can't we... can't we just all get along?

MJM

30th September 2002, 05:39

Quote: from canikickit on 5:23 pm on Sep. 30, 2002
That is a generalisation. I find it offensive.

It's historically accurate.
You're too easily offended I'm afraid. The very fact that you become offended while discussing this with a fellow leftist has illustated my point more easily than anything I can post.

RedCircle
Love of your mother and dog is not the same as love of a country.

Red Circle

30th September 2002, 05:55

I know that. I guess i shouldn't try and make jokes in a serious thread like this.
I can't imagine what it would feel like to not HAVE this country/home. I was born here, and raised to be a "patriot" by my grandfather who survived basic training, fought the wars and listened to all the speeches about how great this place is and how lucky we are to have so many liberties.. just recently i discovered that this place isn't the perfect, freedom playground that he described it to be, but that doesn't mean that i don't love it. I don't know how NOT to love it. I agree with canikickit. I disagree with my home, but i like it here just fine.

canikickit

30th September 2002, 05:57

I'm only joking about being offended. I agree with you that it happens but it is a generalisation, and it doesn't apply to me. You are saying that I am stupid for feeling this way, but it is not down to a personal choice. Punkrawker said to me once that Nationalism is fine on its own but as a political idealology it is wrong. I agree with this, however you seem to be unable to accept that in my case and the case of others it is not neccessarily a bad thing. You can love your country and still want to stop the oppression of others. You can still be a socialist despite the fact that you respect your nation. I never said that my country would come before anything. I would never say that, if my country was invading Iraq I would not support it. But if people were invading my country I would defend my home and family. You would be a fool not to.

I don't really see how my offence proves anything as this is not an issue of nationalism, this is an issue of discussion. I didn't say I was offended because you are not Irish. But like I said that was just a joke, sorry being unclear.

MJM

30th September 2002, 06:06

Cool, I really thought you were getting offended and angry thats what the last bit was about. Since you weren't it's irrelvant.
I don't mean you are stupid, I just think the love of a country is stupid as in a relationship sense ie. between man and state. I just don't get it.
It's not meant to be a personal insult or anything.

Red Circle

30th September 2002, 06:08

I'm learning so much today :)

queen of diamonds

30th September 2002, 08:30

Quote: from El Brujo on 12:23 pm on Nov. 10, 2002
Thats generalizing. Every country has good people and bad people. What I really fuckin hate is the air of superiority that brainwashed americans have. In being patriotic, there is a difference between simply being proud of your culture and believeing its superior to others. I love Argentina but I don't believe its superior to other countries. Those fanatical "either your with us or against us" assholes are the ones I hate.

Thank you - couldn't have put it better myself :)

redstar2000

30th September 2002, 17:14

I know I read it somewhere but I can't recall the source: "don't fall in love with things that can't love you back."

I agree with MJM: even in the most innocent patriotism is a seed of evil, waiting for the opportunity to grow. Maybe conditions are not right for it now; any Argentine or Irish political figure/group who called for the conquest of a new and "glorious" Argentine Empire or Irish Empire would most likely be considered mad or at least a figure of fun.

Do you need reminding that once Germany was a figure of fun among nations? Or consider what Bismarck thought of the U.S.: "God looks after madmen, drunks, and the United States of America."

And there was certainly a time when it was thought "unAmerican" to go to war with anybody except Indian tribes; that unlike other nations, we were "above" the sordid European squabbles for loot and territory (the war against Mexico being passed over in discrete silence). You can find a thread in American history that always held that true American patriotism meant leaving the rest of the world alone (it's a thin thread and you have to look HARD to find it, but it's there).

But when the glories (and plunder!) of empire tempted, our special patriotism turned out to be just as grubby and disgusting as anything Europe had to offer; i.e., huge land purchases in Cuba for pennies per acre, or the mass murder of Philippine insurgents.

I'm not suggesting that anyone who SAYS they love their country will turn into a raging barbarian killer at the earliest opportunity...some, indeed, will NEVER do so. But history is not encouraging.

Do I love my "home"? Would I "defend" it against foreign invasion? As the Brits say: when pigs learn to fly! As long as we have masters, what difference does it make who they are? Why should any worker shed so much as a broken fingernail to defend the greed of one group of masters against the greed of another group of masters? ALL masters should be destroyed.

As to cultural tastes, what of them? I like lots of different kinds of music from all over the world, but I don't intend to take up arms to defend them. I like lots of different kinds of food, also from all over the world; and lots of different kinds of books; and websites; etc., etc., but I will not kill or be killed for any of them.

If MY life is going on the line, there's only one cause: communist insurrection (and with a good chance of winning; I am not a fool). The devil can take the rest.

canikickit

30th September 2002, 18:38

I can only speak for myself

This is what I said earlier on. I felt I had made it clear that I was only refering to myself. I am perfectly aware of the historical hysteria which has been caused by nationalism, and I agree that a lot of idiots cos a lot of bullshit, following their nationalistic stupidity.
It's not a love between me and the state, but the island. There is a difference, I hope people can appreciate it.

As long as we have masters, what difference does it make who they are?

It does make a difference, I find this statement to be ignorant of history. It makes a difference if your country is ruled by people who do not respect your country, and attempt to abolish your language. Ireland was occupied by English masters for almost 800 years, they all but erased our language to the point where it is spoken in only select pockets of the country.
The Native Americans had no rulers, how do you think they felt? Think about what you are saying. Of course it matters who your "masters" are.

Fires of History

30th September 2002, 21:32

I will chime in because I have a few thoughts on the original topic.

I was born and raised in the US, but have moved to Canada. Being outside of the US for so long has given me a new perspective on all of this.

People here are saying don't hate the US, hate the government. Well, I like the thought of that- in theory.

But, what is the government? Simply a representation of the people, no? Who installed such a government? Who voted for such a government? That's right, the people.

So, as easy as it sounds to make a distinct line between the "people" and the "government," it really starts to blur. Assuming that democracy is functioning (and I know that could be debated on this topic too), the "government" is nothing but a reflection of the people. As George Carlin says, "Who the fuck elected these idiots?" And the answer of course is the people.

While I have sympathy for those Americans stuck without a voice, especially those on the left right now, it is clear that the government is supported by many, many Americans.

So, if you hate the "government," what are you really hating?

But then again, this IS all assuming that democracy is even functioning in the US anymore, which I truly believe it is not. And if we are going to admit that democracy is NOT alive and well, then surely more needs to be done by those Americans who still believe in democracy eh?

It's not like Bush got zero votes. So to hate Bush is to also hate those who voted for him. At least as far as I'm concerned. Remember, Bush represents- that's his job, that's his function, that's his role. There simply isn't a clear, easy line between the people and the government. And, no, the rich elite cannot single-handedly vote in a President. The people helped too.

LeninCCCP

30th September 2002, 23:52

I never had a say in the government i was born into it so saying it "represents" me is not true and i did not vote cause i am to young still.

LeninCCCP

30th September 2002, 23:55

Also I dont agree with the "majority" therfore i hate the majority but my views mean nothing in a government that goes by the majority so there is nothing i can do to make my voice be heard. So im screwed because my voice is too small compared to the moral majority.

RGacky3

1st October 2002, 00:19

What choise do the people have, democrates or rebulicans, its not their falt, its teh governments. They have been semi brainwashed by the governments, really the U$ people are victems of teh U$ government.

Red Circle

1st October 2002, 00:28

Lenin
Just because you don't agree with the majority doesn't mean you have to hate the majority. Most people are just uninformed and don't know what the hell's going on

Red Circle

1st October 2002, 00:32

You're in high school right? you should know what i'm talking about. Some people just don't care to know, so how can you disagree with them when they don't understand?

redstar2000

1st October 2002, 00:38

For canikickit: fight and die, then, for the master of your choice! I won't stop you. And when the master you've chosen insults you, exploits you, and degrades you into a broken wretch...well, at least the bastard did it in a language you can understand. At least you both like the same fucking music...or whatever! :-(

canikickit

1st October 2002, 00:50

Fires of History, i don't really hate the people that elected Bush. Hate is too strong a word really.

I reckon around 75% of people are complete morons anyway, so...but I don't neccessarily hate them. I hate the guy that was talking shit to me in the pub that time.

Guardia Bolivariano

1st October 2002, 01:37

TOO BAD THAT THE US GOVERMENT CAN'T CRASH LIKE ENRON ,WILL JUST HAVE TO KEEP WAITING.

LeninCCCP

1st October 2002, 02:23

Quote: from Red Circle on 4:32 pm on Sep. 30, 2002
You're in high school right? you should know what i'm talking about. Some people just don't care to know, so how can you disagree with them when they don't understand?

Its not i hate its I have no respect for peoplple who cant go out to figure things on there own its like im in a world surrounded by people who have no common sense

kitty43

1st October 2002, 05:30

I don't hate the american citizens, except for those that actually support that asinine government. The U.S. talks about the way in which Cuba treats its own citizens, has it looked at the way it treats its own? How about how they treat others? Death to the American government and its so called secret police (cia etc......). All they can think of is the almighty dollar and how much they'll make and not how to take of the poor people, but then again Canada isn't much different....

Fires of History

1st October 2002, 21:06

LeninCCCP,

I understand- believe me- your frustration at being unrepresented. And since you are still young, you have plenty of time to kick ass. Plenty. And kick ass I hope you will- meaning that I hope when you can vote, you will; and that when you are on your own and more able to fight for your voice, you will.

But please don't see yourself as "screwed." Please don't see your voice as too small. I think that's half the problem with the left sometimes. I'm not trying to chastise you here, but please remember that the majority, representation, more power in government, etc, are not just going to be handed to you on a silver platter. Not at all.

Don't give up. Ever. The fight against the right is so very hard, but that makes the effort all the more necessary and worthwhile.

Canikickit,

I agree, hate is too strong a word- at least for the 'people' in general. Now whether or not some of us 'hate' certain leaders is another issue entirely.

What I was getting at was that if you strongly disagree with Bush, you probably also strongly disagree with the millions of Americans who strongly agree with him. Nothing more, nothing less.

canikickit

1st October 2002, 21:43

Fires of History, yeah I agree with you, I don't know why I even bothered typing that (?).

RedStar: your retardation is amazing. They are not masters, you are completely wrapped up in insanity.

canikickit

1st October 2002, 21:50

I would rather have a capitalist democratic government elected by the people of Ireland. Than an imperial capitalist government forced upon us by our neighbours. A government which outlaws our native tongue, stops our poets from writing about the beauty of our nation, leaves us to suffer and starve when our crops fail. You speak like someone who knows nothing of this. You speak like a fool.

redstar2000

2nd October 2002, 00:04

For canikickit: I SAID that if you want a "democratic capitalist government freely elected by the people of Ireland", GO AHEAD. In fact, you have that now. What's your beef? You have the MASTERS (and that is EXACTLY the correct word) that you want.

Some of us think a little differently about such matters; we're indifferent to the specific identity of our masters...we'd rather prefer a social order WITHOUT MASTERS AT ALL! Maybe it's just my insane and retarded notion, but I still hold to the first maxim of communism: working people of all countries, UNITE!

Red Circle

2nd October 2002, 00:15

I agree with Fires of History. the best thing to do is search through your school (thoroughly) and find people who agree with you, or at least have some working knowledge of politics (or just some working knowledge). If not, then try outside of school. Luckily i've found... um... 3 whole people who actually think. How lucky am i, huh? :)

Goldfinger

2nd October 2002, 00:42

Quote: from Guardia Bolivariano on 2:37 am on Oct. 1, 2002
TOO BAD THAT THE US GOVERMENT CAN'T CRASH LIKE ENRON ,WILL JUST HAVE TO KEEP WAITING.

I've heard that USA isn't as rich as they say, due to cowboy industry, and that they will be bankrupt soon.

Goldfinger

2nd October 2002, 00:45

Quote: from Red Circle on 1:15 am on Oct. 2, 2002
I agree with Fires of History. the best thing to do is search through your school (thoroughly) and find people who agree with you, or at least have some working knowledge of politics (or just some working knowledge). If not, then try outside of school. Luckily i've found... um... 3 whole people who actually think. How lucky am i, huh? :)

I guess that the school system of US kinda brainwashes you. I've managed to find ca. 10 leftists in my school, and many of the teachers also agree with my political vievs.

Fires of History

2nd October 2002, 22:49

Yes...there is always the idea of starting a leftist group at school. Not only will others of like mind join, you'll better get the word out. If every other political agenda can have a group (and, yes, Christian groups are political), then you can certainly start your own. Just a thought :)

Apocalypse When said, "....and many of the teachers also agree with my political vievs."

Yep. In virtually every case, at least in my life experience, the more educated someone is the more leftist they are. I can think of very few exceptions to that for me, but the general rule definitely applies. Funny that eh?

(Edited by Fires of History at 10:50 pm on Oct. 2, 2002)

Doshka

13th January 2003, 21:33

hey...im new to this debate bu going back to the subject of the forum fo a second..isnt it the american people who vote for these fuckes up leaders and theyr warped ideas?...excluding the current ape ho stole his way into presidency ofcourse..

Larissa

13th January 2003, 21:43

Quote: from Guardia Bolivariano on 12:16 pm on Sep. 29, 2002
That's the key to understanding our fight ,the US people are a great people they have many diferent points of view and some of them are commies just like us so anyone that plans to fight the people and not the goverment that is the real monster, will fail.So wen we say fuck the US we really should say FUCK THE WHITE HOUSE, FUCK THE FBI , FUCK THE CIA etc...

I agree 100% with you, what we actually hate is the way they exploit other countries, their hypocrisy when they say they will start a war in order to secure peace and the WHOLE world knows it's just because of oil and power.

We hate their imperialist attitude and actions. We hate their lack of respect towards the rest of the world.

It's not the US people. It's the concept.