Maturity

[Palmares]

In the legal sense, maturity is the governments view of whether you are able to make rational choices on your own. In many countries this age begins at 18, 19, and even 21.

I do indeed question such straight-forward assumptions to maturity, as do most of the left.

But that is not really my question: given that many of us believe these are not good indicators of maturity, what then of our usage of terminology that pervades to age?

The reason I ask this is because I have often thought about the usage of girl and woman in relation to a female's age. Then I realised that "age" is really just a construct of this society, and that a more authentic usage of such terms would relate to maturity.

What do people think? :unsure:

[OleMarxco]

Well, I for one COULD think that maturity comes totally and utterly regardless of age, but it isn't always true...because it's both possible to be mature BEFORE their age and mature AFTER their age...so there is some "natural variable"...that someone is usually "at the peak" of matureness in their mid-30's?....Or sumthin'..and becomes mature around 18 or so. But it could very well happen before...even as early as 10-14....and someone as late as, you guessed it, late 20's.... We all see that here, do we not? http://e.deviantart.com/emoticons/s/spyed.gif

[Palmares]

You seem to have missed my point.

Read the last bit in my original post.

[Hegemonicretribution]

Age, I agree, is a construct of our society. However the terminology that you speak of is also in at leas one way a construct of our society also. That is that we give meaning to the terms, not the other way around. However as these can be used in more than one manner, I feel that you need to illustrate the meanings you are implying that the terms should have in this example before comment can be passed effectively.

[OleMarxco]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 11:08 AM
You seem to have missed my point.

Read the last bit in my original post.
Shut up http://e.deviantart.com/emoticons/a/above.gif
Try to be a bit helpful here, if I came to this topic and missed the point of the original
post and read it, which I did, I obviously need a rephrased explanation, of course, what are you, even thicker in the head than I am? HAH! I don't even see where I slipped up! But please, go ahead. Nevermind my weak and uncreative insults....

[MetaZuton]

You have a good point olemarxo.
If someone fails to use the tool of language to convey a concept, then it is their failing.
Whether we understand what someone means is dependant on what we ourselves understand. This is not to say if someone misses a point, they 'understand less, or less well', but to say that they 'understand differently, or different things'.

Back to age and maturity:
"It is not how long you have been on the road but how far you have travelled" - Someone who is damn right

You also missed 16: for smoking and fucking in the UK, spirits in Italy
14: for drinking beer in italy

and in some countries, they have even younger ages of consent (like 12), though you know what? in those countries teenage pregnancies are LESS common than in the UK....

We cannot determine an age when people are 'allowed' to make their decisions, because people will make those decisions anyway. The best we can do is give them the best information on which to base those decisions.

[encephalon]

If someone fails to use the tool of language to convey a concept, then it is their failing.

What? That's a dumb statement :P Language goes two ways.. that's like saying it's a signs fault that somebody can't read :P It involves both parties involved.



In the legal sense, maturity is the governments view of whether you are able to make rational choices on your own. In many countries this age begins at 18, 19, and even 21.

I do indeed question such straight-forward assumptions to maturity, as do most of the left.

But that is not really my question: given that many of us believe these are not good indicators of maturity, what then of our usage of terminology that pervades to age?

The reason I ask this is because I have often thought about the usage of girl and woman in relation to a female's age. Then I realised that "age" is really just a construct of this society, and that a more authentic usage of such terms would relate to maturity.

What do people think

First, I do think there is a correlation between age and maturity, to a point; that is, I can't expect a three year old to be mature any more than I can expect it out of a tree stump. The assignment of '18-adult', however, is a rather arbitrary point, and I don't think there's as much correlation there.

Furthermore, there's substantial evidence that the pre-frontal lobes--which control emotion, among other things--aren't quite connected completely to the rest of the brain until after puberty. I think some parts of maturity come from that, but not all of it.

To me, self-control would factor into the definition of maturity, although that too is a rather subjective assessment. I think experience plays a role as well; that is, knowing how to act/communicate under certain circumstances that leads to the least number of problems.

Above all, I regard maturity as doing things for a reason, not just for entertainment, conformity or anti-conformity. I think maturuty is really just a well developed conciousness; of oneself and the world as well as oneself in relation to the world.

I get the impression that most people, at least in the US, think someone is mature once the person has been beaten into submission and accepts the world for what it is without wanting to change it. Which is why, I think, age plays a critical role in the prevailing definition of maturity, because it takes time for children to be beaten into submission.

[Holocaustpulp]

Age is the best bourgeois means of determining maturity for there is no freedom, liberality, and no sufficient self-awareness to come to personal conclusions no matter what age.

- HP

[Palmares]

Originally posted by Hegemonicretribution+Jun 6 2005, 11:47 PM--> (Hegemonicretribution @ Jun 6 2005, 11:47 PM) I feel that you need to illustrate the meanings you are implying that the terms should have in this example before comment can be passed effectively. [/b]
I see your point, but without having to coin new terminology, I see it as "girl"/"boy" being an indicator of immaturity (one who does not have the rationality to fully take responsibility for their actions) whereas a "woman/man" indicates maturity (one who does have the rationality to fully take responsibility for their actions).

But as you have said, those are constructs of this society: but then again, this argument can be used for the entire human language.

In the current world, I see as the main problem to this as being if someone calls a person who is say 25 a "girl/boy" based on their maturity. They surely would not accept that. But on the other hand, it could work quite well in the opposite way of calling a person say, 17 a "woman/man" based on their maturity levels. They would be flattered.


Originally posted by [email protected]
We cannot determine an age when people are 'allowed' to make their decisions, because people will make those decisions anyway. The best we can do is give them the best information on which to base those decisions.

Indeed. I agree with that.

What I am trying to get at though is, when using words that distinguish between an individual who is mature, and one that is not, how should we do it?


encephalon
First, I do think there is a correlation between age and maturity, to a point; that is, I can't expect a three year old to be mature any more than I can expect it out of a tree stump. The assignment of '18-adult', however, is a rather arbitrary point, and I don't think there's as much correlation there.

I agree. I think the point would be, if an age of maturity was deemed neccessary at all, the subsequent age should only be used as a guideline; from which specific cases would use as a rough indicator, but ajudge further on the particular case itself.

[apathy maybe]

I agree with what Cthenthar said :).

The only trouble with using the terms woman or man to talk about a level of maturity is that then you have the trouble of what word do you use to talk about someone who is 60? There are only two words, woman/man and girl/boy which can be used, if the first is used, there is no indication of what age they are. In some cases this is importent. I see this as a failing of the language. (Is someone who is 40 really old? or just older then you?)

[WTF]

There needs to be a distinction made between physical maturity and conceptual maturity.
Both are like the way an cheese ages, and gains maturity.
The physical aspect has (this is a lie but let's pretend it's the case for now) clear cut means for determination.
We say a person is mature when their balls drop, their tits grow or whatever other particular feature.

In actuality, each part of physical maturation can (and probably should) be viewed as seperate processes with their own consequentiality. They cannot really relate to one another.

So, in what ways is physical maturity consequential? Well, if we look at the maturation of genitalia, it is consequential insofar as it allows someone to participate in sexual acts (whether on their own or not...)

Does this relate to decision making? Well, we could say that the physiological maturation of the brain can be relevant to our emotions, and therefore our thinking process.
However, does this, or should this, have any consequence in the way we treat a person?
The fact is that we each have a unique brain physiology, and the way someone is as a child (physiologically speaking) could be similar in many ways to another person when an adult.
We cannot possibly evaluate how we react to the person then, except on the basis of their actions and their words.
It is similar to the argument pro-cannabis: Our brain naturally produces cannibinoids, and some people will naturally have the same amount of cannibinoids as someone else has when they smoke a spliff. If we were to be consistent with drug policy in most nations, we should therefore outlaw people with different brain physiologies... this obviously doesn't follow.

So, what of conceptual maturity?
It is, really, impossible to measure.
This is because it is impossible to get people to agree on what concepts are valid, let alone that represent a particular situation, such as maturity.

However, there is no distinct grouping that we can make of concepts that represents a stage in a persons life, not down to age, and not down to actual advancement of concepts.

There is no straight line that we travel with our thoughts, no distinct destination, and no distinct stopping points along the way.

As someone above mentions, maturity is generally a social construct used to assist in the attempts to beat people into submission.

As a child we are treated with disrespect, and ideas we espouse which tread over certain boundaries are denegrated.
Naturally, we want to be treated with respect, and so we try and work out the causal reasons for respect and disrespect.
We are told the causal story of 'maturity', and that we don't have it.
This mysterious concept, so we are told, is a thing that we can possess, which when possessed will magically gain us respect.
We are then told exactly what this concept consists of: Following orders, and thinking the same as other people (generally the person who constructed the concept for you, and those which they have been trained to please).
And so, it is all too easy to fall into the trap of seeing this as our salvation.
Other roots to respect are denied us, we are not informed of them and if we attempt to seek them out, we are punished and told that this is 'immature' of us.

In adult human relationships a way to gain respect from a figure which has assumed a dominant role is either to seize the dominant role (and then possibly show magnaminity), or to correct the way of thinking of the disrespecting person.
The other alternative is always to decide that the person disrespecting you is a 'no hoper', unworthy of our own respect, and leave them to their own devices, and vehemently beat them back when they attempt any further imposition.

A child has none of these options, and authority figures do their best to ensure that by the time we are an adult we give such weighting to either the portrayed experiences of the authority figures and their allies, or to society in general.

For maturity you can exchange morality, or any number of other terms.
It should be noted that there are little offshoots of this as well, developed by anyone who recognises the submissive nature instilled in the person as a means to gain influence over the gullible. An example of this is 'cool' as espoused by some in the school yard.

Being a moral sceptic, I'm not going to say that any of these things makes the people or the situation 'bad' or 'evil', it is a simple emotionless analysis. However, I think that most people if aware of these processes occuring to them would reel against them. Capitulation is never the better part of valour.
People often are fooled into thinking themselves free, and that this freedom consists in accepting unquestioningly the prejudices they have so far developed.
Though we may have escaped from the quite literal system of punishment and reward constructed around us as a child, many aspects of society play to thoughts instilled in us during that process.

[Raisa]

Maturity is when you can put others before yourself and sense before self gratification.

[pingwin]

Ha, fools! :D

Maturity isn't about having developed a sense of rationality, having applied a certain philosophy to your outlook on life or (as everybody agrees upon) age. It's about beeing able to take responsibility for your actions. The formal age for beeing 'legally mature' only means what you do or don't is your responsibility.

From a more personal point of view beeing mature means to me beeing able to take responsibility for my own actions. If I mess something up I'll be fixing it. If I make a commitment I'll do my best to do it and if it doesn't work (either by my failing or for other reasons) I'll try to solve the situation as decent as I can.