Chomsky vs. Perle

[Jersey Devil]

This is quite interesting. Two intellectuals from the far-right and the far-left debating. I'm listening to the audio right now.

http://www.radio4all.net/index.php?op=prog...program_id=8409 (http://www.radio4all.net/index.php?op=program-info&program_id=8409)

[Publius]

Sounds good.

[Monty Cantsin]

interesting i'm just dowloading the second part but chomsky does give better arguments...E.g more detailed and what not while Perle tries to back Peddle and evaide the thrust of points.

[KptnKrill]

You gotta love chomsky :)

[bed_of_nails]

I am in the middle of the first part. It is rather interesting.

[Monty Cantsin]

yer the scond part is more one way... Perle openly wont respond to points made by chomsky.

[bed_of_nails]

Well I almost feel bad for Perle...

Chomsky: America is bad, it forces people to be its enemies so it can exploit them.

Perle: You are a Commie. The Soviet Union sucks.

[Monty Cantsin]

that doesnt some up of their resective arugments.

[ahhh_money_is_comfort]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 05:17 AM
Well I almost feel bad for Perle...

Chomsky: America is bad, it forces people to be its enemies so it can exploit them.

Perle: You are a Commie. The Soviet Union sucks.
Today that comment would be "Communism is retreating everywhere around the world and will be just a bad memory".

[Monty Cantsin]

Originally posted by ahhh_money_is_comfort+Jun 6 2005, 05:10 AM--> (ahhh_money_is_comfort @ Jun 6 2005, 05:10 AM)
[email protected] 6 2005, 05:17 AM
Well I almost feel bad for Perle...

Chomsky: America is bad, it forces people to be its enemies so it can exploit them.

Perle: You are a Commie. The Soviet Union sucks.
Today that comment would be "Communism is retreating everywhere around the world and will be just a bad memory". [/b]
But that’s not actually true historic “communism” in the Maoists form is on the increase and spreading through many different countries. In the 1st world though the anti-capitalists movement is also growing, Chomsky being an intellectual of the movement.

[ahhh_money_is_comfort]

Originally posted by Monty Cantsin+Jun 6 2005, 06:16 AM--> (Monty Cantsin @ Jun 6 2005, 06:16 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 05:10 AM

[email protected] 6 2005, 05:17 AM
Well I almost feel bad for Perle...

Chomsky: America is bad, it forces people to be its enemies so it can exploit them.

Perle: You are a Commie. The Soviet Union sucks.
Today that comment would be "Communism is retreating everywhere around the world and will be just a bad memory".
But that’s not actually true historic “communism” in the Maoists form is on the increase and spreading through many different countries. In the 1st world though the anti-capitalists movement is also growing, Chomsky being an intellectual of the movement. [/b]
Ehhhem. The Maoist are driving BMWs in the Forbinden City. The same Maoist that KNEW Mao.

[Monty Cantsin]

Originally posted by ahhh_money_is_comfort+Jun 6 2005, 05:20 AM--> (ahhh_money_is_comfort @ Jun 6 2005, 05:20 AM)
Originally posted by Monty [email protected] 6 2005, 06:16 AM

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 05:10 AM

[email protected] 6 2005, 05:17 AM
Well I almost feel bad for Perle...

Chomsky: America is bad, it forces people to be its enemies so it can exploit them.

Perle: You are a Commie. The Soviet Union sucks.
Today that comment would be "Communism is retreating everywhere around the world and will be just a bad memory".
But that’s not actually true historic “communism” in the Maoists form is on the increase and spreading through many different countries. In the 1st world though the anti-capitalists movement is also growing, Chomsky being an intellectual of the movement.
Ehhhem. The Maoist are driving BMWs in the Forbinden City. The same Maoist that KNEW Mao. [/b]
Historical communism has equated to a independent bourgeoisie revolution lead by a vanguard of dissidents opposed to the weakness of their own national bourgeoisie.

[ahhh_money_is_comfort]

Originally posted by Monty Cantsin+Jun 6 2005, 06:23 AM--> (Monty Cantsin @ Jun 6 2005, 06:23 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 05:20 AM

Originally posted by Monty [email protected] 6 2005, 06:16 AM

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 05:10 AM

[email protected] 6 2005, 05:17 AM
Well I almost feel bad for Perle...

Chomsky: America is bad, it forces people to be its enemies so it can exploit them.

Perle: You are a Commie. The Soviet Union sucks.
Today that comment would be "Communism is retreating everywhere around the world and will be just a bad memory".
But that’s not actually true historic “communism” in the Maoists form is on the increase and spreading through many different countries. In the 1st world though the anti-capitalists movement is also growing, Chomsky being an intellectual of the movement.
Ehhhem. The Maoist are driving BMWs in the Forbinden City. The same Maoist that KNEW Mao.
Historical communism has equated to a independent bourgeoisie revolution lead by a vanguard of dissidents opposed to the weakness of their own national bourgeoisie. [/b]
The artistic construct of neo-formalism derived from classical cubism is an esoteric humanist ideology.

Do you know what I just said?

Well you last post was just as much jibberjab.

[Monty Cantsin]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 05:31 AM

The artistic construct of neo-formalism derived from classical cubism is an esoteric humanist ideology.

Do you know what I just said?

Well you last post was just as much jibberjab.
there's a few problems, i dont know what Neo-formalism is but other then that the sentance makes sence though i could bend it a few ways with worlds like ideology and humanist.... because there's many meanings attached to them and some are conflicting. the worlds i uses though aren’t that ambiguous.


But what I said was quite straight forward in my mind…the past ‘communist’ revolutions amount to 3rd world countries revolting against their own backwardness and the inability of the national ruling class to break free of foreign interests. Thus Maoists have lead of vanguard of dissents wanting to develop the country in an independent way through the state monopoly of capital which allows them to develop infrastructure without foreign capitalists taking the cake and eating it too. After a process of development has been taken the new ruling class leads a capitalist’s reformation so they can have economic power in their own hands instead of an alienated form. So to the original point communism is not in retreat it’s never been a concrete reality other then in crude and underdeveloped forms but the anti-imperial forces in the 3rd world and anti-capitalists in the 1st world (communists include) are on the increase.

[Professor Moneybags]

Originally posted by Monty [email protected] 6 2005, 05:16 AM
In the 1st world though the anti-capitalists movement is also growing, Chomsky being an intellectual of the movement.
The anti-capitalist movement peaked in 2000 and it's being going downhill since. Anti-capitalism was a fashion, not a political movement.

[Andy Bowden]

What are you basing this statement on, given the continued progress by Socialist organisations like Lutte Ouvriere in France, the Left Bloc in Portugal and Hugo Chavez's referendum victory?

[ahhh_money_is_comfort]

Originally posted by Monty Cantsin+Jun 6 2005, 06:45 AM--> (Monty Cantsin @ Jun 6 2005, 06:45 AM)
[email protected] 6 2005, 05:31 AM

The artistic construct of neo-formalism derived from classical cubism is an esoteric humanist ideology.

Do you know what I just said?

Well you last post was just as much jibberjab.
there's a few problems, i dont know what Neo-formalism is but other then that the sentance makes sence though i could bend it a few ways with worlds like ideology and humanist.... because there's many meanings attached to them and some are conflicting. the worlds i uses though aren’t that ambiguous.


But what I said was quite straight forward in my mind…the past ‘communist’ revolutions amount to 3rd world countries revolting against their own backwardness and the inability of the national ruling class to break free of foreign interests. Thus Maoists have lead of vanguard of dissents wanting to develop the country in an independent way through the state monopoly of capital which allows them to develop infrastructure without foreign capitalists taking the cake and eating it too. After a process of development has been taken the new ruling class leads a capitalist’s reformation so they can have economic power in their own hands instead of an alienated form. So to the original point communism is not in retreat it’s never been a concrete reality other then in crude and underdeveloped forms but the anti-imperial forces in the 3rd world and anti-capitalists in the 1st world (communists include) are on the increase. [/b]
I got news for you?

Really really crazy people? Think they are real smart, don't make any sense to anyone else, but it is all perfectly clear only to themselves.

[encephalon]

damn.. I wish I was older than 8 when this went down.. I live about 20 miles away from OSU :P

[encephalon]

Really really crazy people? Think they are real smart, don't make any sense to anyone else, but it is all perfectly clear only to themselves.

So that's why I could never understand you.. okay, I got it now. Thanks for clearing that up :P

on a side note.. Monty, are you drunk? :D You do tend to make a lot more sense than this most of the time.

[Monty Cantsin]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 01:20 AM

Really really crazy people? Think they are real smart, don't make any sense to anyone else, but it is all perfectly clear only to themselves.

So that's why I could never understand you.. okay, I got it now. Thanks for clearing that up :P

on a side note.. Monty, are you drunk? :D You do tend to make a lot more sense than this most of the time.
Granted there was some grammatical errors in there….I’m smart damm it! :P

3td world communist’s revolutions are nationalists in character because it’s a revolt against foreign domination and their own backwardness. But this is still progressive because it allows them to concentrate capital in the hands of the state and thus build up infrastructure and industry, in capitalist economies they see high geini coeffiesents as a good thing because it allows capitalists to take on large projects. This process though is still rather capitalistic because workers don’t have autonomy from a management and larders in there institutional positions. Furthermore the capitalist’s mode of production is only changed by the replacement of individual capitalists and corporations with a state management and control. The workers are still subjected to fordism in the workplace and so forth.

As we have seen where revolutions of this character take place after a period of independent development (development model not forced upon it) there is a capitalist’s reformation (to its traditional form of individual ownership) lead normal by the political elite the state capitalists ruling class. Thus the rulings class becomes so through a non-alienated form, they now own it personally and can benefit from it easily.

In the 1st world, economic conditions are there that would allow us to abolish the current form of production creating a post-capitalists society.


encephalon do you get what i'm saying now?

[ahhh_money_is_comfort]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 02:20 AM

Really really crazy people? Think they are real smart, don't make any sense to anyone else, but it is all perfectly clear only to themselves.

So that's why I could never understand you.. okay, I got it now. Thanks for clearing that up :P

on a side note.. Monty, are you drunk? :D You do tend to make a lot more sense than this most of the time.
You mean you don't understand this:

"The Maoist are driving BMWs in the Forbinden City".

I thought that was pretty clear. Why don't you understand that? I'm not trying to fool you. Is 'driving' too technical a term? Do you know that BMW is an expensive car? I hope that helps. Did you know the forbiden city is in China, which was once Maoist? Does that help?

[Monty Cantsin]

Originally posted by ahhh_money_is_comfort+Jun 7 2005, 06:03 AM--> (ahhh_money_is_comfort @ Jun 7 2005, 06:03 AM)
[email protected] 7 2005, 02:20 AM

Really really crazy people? Think they are real smart, don't make any sense to anyone else, but it is all perfectly clear only to themselves.

So that's why I could never understand you.. okay, I got it now. Thanks for clearing that up :P

on a side note.. Monty, are you drunk? :D You do tend to make a lot more sense than this most of the time.
You mean you don't understand this:

"The Maoist are driving BMWs in the Forbinden City".

I thought that was pretty clear. Why don't you understand that? I'm not trying to fool you. Is 'driving' too technical a term? Do you know that BMW is an expensive car? I hope that helps. Did you know the forbiden city is in China, which was once Maoist? Does that help? [/b]
He was joking, but you probably know that. The real question why do you always evade the points being made? Why do you even come to this site if you can’t defend your own position short of just trying to change the focus.

[NovelGentry]

Is the sound in the second mp3 really screwed up for anyone else?

[bed_of_nails]

It was really messed up for about half of it for me.

[Monty Cantsin]

yer the second one was half half...but still i could listen and understand what was being said.

[encephalon]

Originally posted by ahhh_money_is_comfort+Jun 7 2005, 06:03 AM--> (ahhh_money_is_comfort @ Jun 7 2005, 06:03 AM)
[email protected] 7 2005, 02:20 AM

Really really crazy people? Think they are real smart, don't make any sense to anyone else, but it is all perfectly clear only to themselves.

So that's why I could never understand you.. okay, I got it now. Thanks for clearing that up :P

on a side note.. Monty, are you drunk? :D You do tend to make a lot more sense than this most of the time.
You mean you don't understand this:

"The Maoist are driving BMWs in the Forbinden City".

I thought that was pretty clear. Why don't you understand that? I'm not trying to fool you. Is 'driving' too technical a term? Do you know that BMW is an expensive car? I hope that helps. Did you know the forbiden city is in China, which was once Maoist? Does that help? [/b]
god damn. I thought the stereotype was that communists don't have a sense of humor. My mistake.

[Hiero]

You mean you don't understand this:

"The Maoist are driving BMWs in the Forbinden City".

He is talking about the Maoist movement in the third world outside of China.

Also there are no Maoist in power in China. The Chinese Communist Party do not consider themselves Maoist and are trying to get China catorgorised as a market econony.

China is a revisionist society when compared to Maoism. It is you who has trouble understanding ideological differences of the Communist movement.

[ahhh_money_is_comfort]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 01:09 PM

You mean you don't understand this:

"The Maoist are driving BMWs in the Forbinden City".

He is talking about the Maoist movement in the third world outside of China.

Also there are no Maoist in power in China. The Chinese Communist Party do not consider themselves Maoist and are trying to get China catorgorised as a market econony.

China is a revisionist society when compared to Maoism. It is you who has trouble understanding ideological differences of the Communist movement.
Stop.

Look at yourself for a moment.

China no longer Maoist? Is Mao turing over in his grave? Why did such a hard core Maoist place give up?

OK you got me. Where is Maoist still alive and well, which country?

[LSD]

Stop.

Look at yourself for a moment.

China no longer Maoist? Is Mao turing over in his grave? Why did such a hard core Maoist place give up?

Read up on the coup of '76, Deng Xiaoping and the reformest rightists, and the economic restructurings of the eighties and nineties.


OK you got me. Where is Maoist still alive and well, which country?

Well, there's currently a civil war in Nepal between the Monarchists and the Maoist rebels...

[Black Dagger]

Also in Mexico and Central America.

[ahhh_money_is_comfort]

Originally posted by Lysergic Acid [email protected] 7 2005, 04:02 PM

Stop.

Look at yourself for a moment.

China no longer Maoist? Is Mao turing over in his grave? Why did such a hard core Maoist place give up?

Read up on the coup of '76, Deng Xiaoping and the reformest rightists, and the economic restructurings of the eighties and nineties.


OK you got me. Where is Maoist still alive and well, which country?

Well, there's currently a civil war in Nepal between the Monarchists and the Maoist rebels...
Oooooh Nepal. Industral development ZERO.

What do you think Communist theory says about that place? I think you need more re-education comrade. This revolution violates communist thoery.

[ahhh_money_is_comfort]

Originally posted by Black [email protected] 7 2005, 04:51 PM
Also in Mexico and Central America.
Central America? Where? In the places with ZERO industry?

Mexico? OK are they a good candidate for stable communism according to theory?

[Hiero]

I don't get your point.

Communist have started with countries that were semi feudal and transformed then into 2nd world superpowers. What don't you understand about that?

Central America has a bit of industry due to the US economy. They will probally have a good industry and developed working class in the resources that are exported to the US.

There shows a great lack of understanding of the communist theory if you are not a communist. One example of this is during the Sino-Soviet split, western nations thought they could take advantage of this split by taking China's side. What they did not understand was that China was criticising the Soviet Union for thinking they could have peaceful relations with the US.

This is evident in you understanding "ahhh_money_is_comfort". You can't understand how there are capitalist in the Communist Party, and they will make revisionist reform to install Capitalist economy.

Thats why Communist can defeat there enemy.

[Black Dagger]

Central America? Where? In the places with ZERO industry?

Mexico? OK are they a good candidate for stable communism according to theory?

Maoism is rooted in peasant struggle, those places are 'perfect' for a maoist movement. Yet again you fail to understand even the most basic nuances in ideologies.

[Andy Bowden]

Am I the only one who thinks that Richard Perle is actually quite creepy? Not in your typical neo-con way but actually scary looking? Those cold eyes, his monotonous voice :lol: ......

[JudeObscure84]

I actually want to hear a Chomsky vs. Wolfowitz debate. That would be a great match.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Latin America and Nepal may not be candidates for communism, but they're in wonderful positions to throw off foriegn domination, and help lay the groundwork for communist revolutions.

See, communists don't think we live in some historyless wonderland - we recognise that societies are dynamic and developing. We can both uphold the Chinese revolution (which through off foriegn domination, and turned a backward country into what is becoming a super-power), or going back a bit, the French revolution, but, at the same time, oppose these now stagnant, and restraining, forms (as manifested in "western"-bourgeoise-capitalism, and capitalizt-police-states a la China).

[Commie Girl]

Richard Perle and David Frum (sadly a Canadian), are both creepy....Chomsky clearly won the debate, Perle couldnt say much in the face of all the documented evidence, except..."this is a fantasy, its you rinterpretation, blah blah blah" ....asking rhetorical question, etc. Couldnt even defend his own arguments!

[JudeObscure84]

Richard Perle and David Frum (sadly a Canadian), are both creepy....Chomsky clearly won the debate, Perle couldnt say much in the face of all the documented evidence, except..."this is a fantasy, its you rinterpretation, blah blah blah" ....asking rhetorical question, etc. Couldnt even defend his own arguments!


um...that's your interpretation of it...blah..blah..blah

[Commie Girl]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2005, 12:35 PM

Richard Perle and David Frum (sadly a Canadian), are both creepy....Chomsky clearly won the debate, Perle couldnt say much in the face of all the documented evidence, except..."this is a fantasy, its you rinterpretation, blah blah blah" ....asking rhetorical question, etc. Couldnt even defend his own arguments!


um...that's your interpretation of it...blah..blah..blah
Not my interpretation, I have listened to it twice and Perle could not offer any refuting evidence, other than to repeatedly express astonishment that Chomsky {and most other sane people} came to the conclusions he expressed about the U$ and their intentions since the end of WWII.

[ahhh_money_is_comfort]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2005, 02:45 AM
I don't get your point.

Communist have started with countries that were semi feudal and transformed then into 2nd world superpowers. What don't you understand about that?

Central America has a bit of industry due to the US economy. They will probally have a good industry and developed working class in the resources that are exported to the US.

There shows a great lack of understanding of the communist theory if you are not a communist. One example of this is during the Sino-Soviet split, western nations thought they could take advantage of this split by taking China's side. What they did not understand was that China was criticising the Soviet Union for thinking they could have peaceful relations with the US.

This is evident in you understanding "ahhh_money_is_comfort". You can't understand how there are capitalist in the Communist Party, and they will make revisionist reform to install Capitalist economy.

Thats why Communist can defeat there enemy.
All those revolutions in semi-feudal countries? They were all fake communist. Marxism is very clear. The revolutions DON'T happen in those countries. Marxis is very clear. Communism starts with a revolution in an INDUSTRIAL society with production to be seized by workers. Peasants in semi-feudal socities are NOT protelariat. They don't work in factories.

[STI]

All those revolutions in semi-feudal countries? They were all fake communist. Marxism is very clear. The revolutions DON'T happen in those countries. Marxis is very clear. Communism starts with a revolution in an INDUSTRIAL society with production to be seized by workers. Peasants in semi-feudal socities are NOT protelariat. They don't work in factories.

Communist revolutions don't happen in those countries, and they didn't. State-capitalist (socialst) revolutions did. They amounted to nothing more than bourgeois revolutions. The party became the new ruling class and capitalism was officially installed (or will soon be) in all the fake-communist revolutions of the 20th century.

[ahhh_money_is_comfort]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2005, 01:45 AM

All those revolutions in semi-feudal countries? They were all fake communist. Marxism is very clear. The revolutions DON'T happen in those countries. Marxis is very clear. Communism starts with a revolution in an INDUSTRIAL society with production to be seized by workers. Peasants in semi-feudal socities are NOT protelariat. They don't work in factories.

Communist revolutions don't happen in those countries, and they didn't. State-capitalist (socialst) revolutions did. They amounted to nothing more than bourgeois revolutions. The party became the new ruling class and capitalism was officially installed (or will soon be) in all the fake-communist revolutions of the 20th century.
Are you calling Lenin a fake communist?

Are yout calling Che a fake communist?

[MParenti]

Perle didn't even bother answering half the questions, he just said what Chomsky said was "nonsense" and kept repeating that Chomsky didn't work government and talked too long.

[ahhh_money_is_comfort]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2005, 06:08 AM
Perle didn't even bother answering half the questions, he just said what Chomsky said was "nonsense" and kept repeating that Chomsky didn't work government and talked too long.
Warp factor 2 can be achived when anti-matter mixes in a di-lithium crystal, heating plasma to make a wrap field. It is all sooooo logical and scientific because the warp field theory says so.

You see all the things communism says will happen, will really happen just because the theory says so.

[kidicarus20]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2005, 05:08 AM
Perle didn't even bother answering half the questions, he just said what Chomsky said was "nonsense" and kept repeating that Chomsky didn't work government and talked too long.
Yeah Perle had his chance, he blew it by instead of starting with an opening statement started with a rebuttal. He could have explained why America was so good or this or that, but got Chomsky pissed when he offered a rebuttal based on state and conservative propaganda rather than facts and history. He should have known what was coming to him. By the end it seems Perle just gave up.

[spartafc]

an interesting debate.

Side one -
The stuff on Nicaragua had me laughing - Perle tells us that America had to over-throw the Nicaraguan government, for the sake of democracy! He cites a few other countries before hinting that Mr-Chomsky is just a degenerate commie.