A brilliant example of conservative thinking

[vox]

Most decent people, whether they agree with the decision to use nuclear weapons in WWII or not, recognize it as a profound tragedy. The staggering death toll is, unquestionably, an affront to all that is human in the human species.

Unless you're Ann Coulter:

Gore also complained that Bush has made the "rest of the world" angry at us. Boo hoo hoo. He said foreigners are not worried about "what the terrorist networks are going to do, but about what we're going to do."

Good. They should be worried. They hate us? We hate them. Americans don't want to make Islamic fanatics love us. We want to make them die. There's nothing like horrendous physical pain to quell angry fanatics. So sorry they're angry -- wait until they see American anger. Japanese kamikaze pilots hated us once too. A couple of well-aimed nuclear weapons, and now they are gentle little lambs. That got their attention.

Yes, half a million civilian deaths do tend to get attention. What they don't often get is the kind of happy, gleeful, that-showed-'em attitude that Ann Coulter seems to have.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki exposed to the world the unmitigated horror of war and of nuclear weapons in particular. There used to be, in the USA, a fairly loud call to abandon nuclear weapons. Now people are talking about using them in a first-strike.

Do another half million people need to be slaughtered for us to remember what these weapons do?

I'm glad that the Left, despite all of its other problems, seems to remember and takes a disciplined stance against such atrocities while conservatives stroke themselves to a frenzied wargasm.

vox

[Ian]

heh heh wargasm :D

But seriously that lady sounds like a total sucker for propaganda, all the government needs to do is plant seeds and the seeds will grow and spread total bullshit and lies...

[BOZG]

Oh to be able to dance on her head. The woman is nothing less than a psychopath with an extreme mental disorder. She sounds like she could be an understudy of Mengele.

[KickMcCann]

She is just an extremist from the right, the kind who thinks nuking people and forcing religion is a good thing.

Just like any extremist from the left, who thinks that Stalin and Mao were good people, and that conducting purges to kill everyone who disagrees with them is a noble cause.

Fuck the left wing. Fuck the right wing.

[vox]

Well, KickMcCann, she may very well be an extremist, but she seems to speak for a lot of people. Remember, it was only a month ago or so that she had the number one selling book in the US. To discount her is to discount a big portion of society. I don't think that just ignoring her and hoping she'll go away is practical. When Rush Limbaugh was still relevant, people spent quite a bit of time correcting his lies and showing his callousness, and with good cause, too. The distasteful cannot go unanswered, lest it become so common that people no longer find it distasteful.

vox

[Fires of History]

Vox,

Are people in public media countering her?

I simply cannot believe that an 'adult' said those things. It is the attitude like hers- if those in the US allow it to continue- that will be used against the US one day when it is no longer #1. America thinks it has a right to enforce it's will on the rest of the world, and that attitude, if not destroyed, WILL be used against the US in the future. Perhaps when China is bombing the US in 2400, or something similar, who knows- but it will. The attitudes and actions of the US WILL COME TO HAUNT THEM. And idiots like her are just paving the way for centuries of war and violence to come.

I still cannot believe that a human being beyond puberty said those things.

American arrogance, egotism, and self-centeredness is well known, but Coulter makes me wonder if it's deeper than even I thought it was.

I guess it's so easy to talk big when you have all the guns. But what the US fails to understand- and refuses to see- is that if history guarantees one thing it is that the US will eventually fall from being #1. And that will be a sad day for the US because of the precedent they have set.

Will other countries want to treat a new less-than-#1 US with dignity and respect? No. Why? Because of fucking twits like Ann Coulter, paving the way for centuries of American imperialism and domination, who cannot conceive of a way to make and live in peace. Why would any other new superpower in the future treat a newly weak US with dignity and respect? I sure as hell don't know.

But really, please Vox, let me know she's blasted in media. Please. Please tell me she is. Please.

And, yes, I do hope that one day the US is carpet bombed to shit, the masses of Americans shoved into sweatshops (or whatever is used in the future), and that the new world superpower pisses all over American hopes and dreams. Why? Because they deserve it. Those like Coulter deserve it, and those who sit around and do nothing about the Coulters deserve it. And all I can hope is that one day Americans look back and realize that they brought all of that on themselves. Or at least their ancestors did.

Why are Americans so fucking stupid to think they will be king forever?

You reap what you sow.

Not that anyone in charge today cares, they'll be dead. Which is why all of this is all the more wrong.

You reap what you sow.

Vox, you always have a way of finding the most infuriating stuff. At least for me. May Coulter...well, nevermind.

[BOZG]

I still cannot believe that a human being beyond puberty said those things.

What's wrong with people in puberty? Ageist bastard ;)

(Edited by BornOfZapatasGuns at 12:30 am on Sep. 29, 2002)

[vox]

Hey there FoH,

Did you see my post about Coulter (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=11&topic=2085&start=10) in the thread Drake started about her? You should check it out. There are a few links there that should get your blood boiling, inlcuding a couple of sites with quotes from her (like where she says women shouldn't be allowed to vote) and an excerpt from a CNN show she was guest hosting. You'll like it.

And I think you know the answer to your question--no, the media doesn't, in general, blast her at all. Like I say, she was on CNN, a mainstream outlet, not long ago, she's been on the conservative Fox News channel quite a bit, and, if you take the time to read the hatchet job the Daily Howler did on her over the course of a few weeks, you'll find that the paper of record in the States, the New York Times, praised her book for being well-researched, but if you reaserch the research, you'll find that she lied. There's no other word for it. She simply lied. I'm guessing she didn't think that anyone would bother checking, for she had over 800 footnotes, but just a random check shows that she made stuff up.

The National Review Online (website for the hard right National Review magazine) did, to its credit, fire her for what she said after 9/11, that the US should "invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity." Of course, to NRO's discredit, it ran the piece in the first place and didn't fire her tell they caught hell for it in one of the few instances people said, "hey, that's just not right." There's a letter from the editor of NRO about this floating about online. I know I've read it, but I can't remember where.

I'm sorry to hear that you want US citizens to suffer. I hope that's just frustration talking. We're not all like Coulter, you know.

vox

(Edited by vox at 7:49 pm on Sep. 28, 2002)

[IHP]

im glad that you are able to find such quotes vox, it helps me when i argue with my politics class.

but seriously, i find it hard to believe that the Americans were so suprised about S11 when they advertise this kind of absolute disregard for human life and suffering. somehow, i dont know how, she really needs to be humiliated and completely lose face beyond a shadow of a doubt, and more.

--IHP

[ArgueEverything]

Here in Australia, we have a lot of people like Coulter and Limbaugh in the media, but thankfully they don't seem to command as much attention as their US equivalents do.

However, I do see a similar pattern emerging in writings of Right-wing media pundits. It's a kind of "new racism" which attacks culture and religion (particularly Islam). The old racists, of course, simply attacked a person's race (which, scientifically speaking, doesn't exist), so they could easily be discredited in the eyes of the public. This new racism, however, is dressed up in a pseudo-intellectual guise of attacking culture/religion, which somehow makes it O.K. I'm certainly not a postmodernist, and I recognise that some elements of all cultures are just wrong and should be heavily criticised, but this cultural imperialism that I see emerging in the West really pisses me off, especially when I see its effects - reduced immigration from Asian nations, hostility towards immigrants etc.

[vox]

ArgueEverything,

I've heard that Australia is starting to look much more like the US, and, given it's history of oppression of natives, like the US has, and it's anti-immigration stance (for non-whites especially), I think that the similarities are stunning. And, of course, Australia is a close ally of the US. It's funny that in almost every article about the proposed attack on Iraq, Blair is mentioned as the only support the US has. Rubbish. Ariel Sharon supports it and poor, forgotten John Howard, as I understand it, backs Bush completely. Australia is rarely ever mentioned in the US media at all. I had a friend there, and we talked about that. It's like Australia doesn't even exist except in beer commercials for Fosters (c'mon, man, send better beer!) and the Crocodile Hunter. (This used to drive my friend nuts. She was not a fan of the Croc Hunter, it seems.)

Do you have anything like a Jerry Falwell or a Pat Robertson there?

vox

[IHP]

ArgueEverything. im in Australia as well. are you talking about OneNation?

thank god they've gone. The problem is, though, little bald johnn howard has adopted some of Pauline Hansons immigration policies.

vox, we dont really have a gay hating preacher like Jerry Falwell here, i suppose thats because our freedom of speech is a lot more strict. There is an Archbishop called george pell who does openly oppose homosexuality, but he cites religion as his drive, not a personal prejudice.

AE, do you know of anyone else?

--IHP

[ArgueEverything]

Vox,

Indeed the similarities between the US and Australia are stunning. Many of the similarities originate, I think, from the fact that Australia had to turn to the US for security in the cold war era. Previous to that, Britain could be relied on, but after Britain's virtual abandonment of Australia in the face of the Japanese advances into Singapore, Malaysia, Papua New Guinea etc during the war, Australia turned towards the US. Since then, its been "all the way with LBJ". There is a US spy base here, in a place called Pine Gap, which Gough Whitlam (do you know about him?) exposed.

You are spot on in pointing to John Howard's support of the proposed war on Iraq. He's basically a parrot of the Bush admin. The opposition Labor party is not much better, though, to their credit, they are taking a much softer line than their 'compatriots' in the British Labor Party.

You mention Fosters, and the Croc Hunter, which, alongside the Aussie TV show "Neighbours" which is very popular in Britain, are the cultural icons of Australia. Most people I know loathe the Croc Hunter, like your friend, as well as Steve Irwin...probably because of the false impression of Australians they give foreigners, hehe.

Do a lot of Americans think that Australians keep kangaroos as pets? That seems to be the impression of a lot of the visitors I've met. To an extent, my friends and I help perpetuate this myth by telling all the American and Germany exchange teachers who come to our school that our backyards are thoroughly infested with kangaroos, wombats, possums, etc :)

We sorta do have a Jerry Falwell/Pat Robertson equivalent, by the name of the Reverend Fred Nile. He is the leader of the Christian Democratic Party( http://www.christiandemocratic.org.au/ ). Anti-gay, anti-immigrants, anti-abortion, anti-multiculturalism and so on. You know how it is. I don't think he is quite as popular as Falwell and Robertson are over there, though.

And, as I hate pinochet said, our Catholic archbishop is anti-homosexual, but arent they all? He's particularly controversial for refusing to give communion to gay Catholics.

i hate pinochet,

Nice to see another person from Australia here. Ian Rocks, who posts here, is also Australian.

Yeah, i was referring to One Nation. Its good they are virtually gone, but they've done irreparable damage to the Australian psyche. They did, after all, get over a million votes at one stage. I think Howard's tough stance on 'illegal' immigrants is what won him last year's election. This was basically a toned-down Hansonite policy.

Also, his Ten Point Plan which reversed much of Mabo and Wik, as well as his refusal to apologise to the Aboriginals, is largely a product of the pressure put on him by Hanson.

(Edited by ArgueEverything at 5:05 am on Sep. 29, 2002)

[Ian]

I forget the guys name but one of the liberal (Howard'sparty) backbenchers said "If we attack Iraq we are now better than the terrorists". I'm guessing he'll remain a backbencher for a while...

[IHP]

I study Aboriginal Politics as a part of my uni degree. with mabo (etc.): in my opinion, there needs to be constitutional change, not just token watered down treaties (bob hawke) that got very close to an apology with Keating, but was abolished as soon as johnny got in. he was (as you stated ArgueEverything) under the influence of pauline hanson. Thats just my opinion, either of you two got one?

vox,

actually i do now recall a situation where someone spoke out. we have a champion boxer called Anthony Mundine and he said in an interview that america had S11 coming to it. (Aussies help me out here) he was threatened with (im not sure if action ensued) his championship belt being taken off him. thats how srict is it here.

our anti-homosexual archbiship is also controversial as there are lots of child rape/paedophilia claims piling up against him, it'll be interesting to see how that goes.

--IHP

[ArgueEverything]

I hate pinochet,

This is a great article on the Mundine thing: http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/oct2001/...1/box-o29.shtml (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/oct2001/box-o29.shtml)

About Mabo, I unfortunately don't really know enough about it to have an informed opinion. However, I think that the Native Titles Act itself had all the necessary safeguards for protect mining and farming interests, and that Howard's 10 point plan was therefore unneccesary from a practical viewpoint. The only reason he put it forward was to get some of the Hanson votes, in my opinion. I have little respect for him; you may recall that when Hanson first arrived on the scene, and made her infamously racist maiden speech, he refused to criticise it for a very long time. Instead he praised it, saying it struck a blow to 'political correctness'. It was only when the Liberals realised the damage One Nation was doing to Australia's reputation in Asia that Howard made criticised her ideals. And even then, it was only half-heartedly. Bastard.

[Angie]

Vox, just three things:

A small correction, Australia doesn't support America's actions, our Government does plus a very small minority. Kind of speaks for itself, and I know it's what you meant anyhow.

Secondly, it's probably a good thing that Australia's given barely a mention within the U.S. media, actually. The less the U.S. Conservatives are aware that there is a level of support for them within the governments of other nations, even if it is only three other nations, the better. Mind you, I heard a rumour somewhere that the Australian Government is supporting America so blatantly out of blackmail - something about trade sanctions and/or tarrifs that the U.S. has threatened us with.

And lastly, very few of us actually do think much of the Crocodile Hunter. Most of us are utterly repulsed by the very thought of him.

:biggrin:

[queen of diamonds]

Angie, I'd be interested to hear what the Aus. govt. is receiving in exchange for their unconditional support - the trade restrictions on Australian agricultural products in the US seem firmly in place, and the Australian wheat farmers have just lost a market in Iraq. As an Australian, an agriculture student and - well, a person of some little intelligence (yes, I flatter myself), I'm extremely curious, so if you hear any more abt it, let me know, would you? Thanks :)

Actually, vox, I was reading an article in the paper the other day - the media seems to have realised (and feels it important enough to bring to the attention of ordinary Australians) that after the Australian govt. has sacrificed the market for Australian wheat in Iraq, their counterparts in America barely seem to notice the country exists....

As for the croc. hunter, he's amusing, but not an accurate representation of the Australian people - or at least, not the ones I know.

[ArgueEverything]

Queen of Diamonds,

On the issue of American 'rewards' to Australia for its support of US foregn policy, there are already talks for a bilateral Free Trade agreement between the two nations: http://www.abc.net.au/pm/s545205.htm

US-Australia free trade deal

PM - Wednesday, May 1, 2002 6:54

In what looms as a major development, the United States has outlined a timetable that could deliver Australia a bilateral free trade agreement by early next year. Australia and the US have been holding off a formal start to the negotiations while the US Congress deals with its controversial Farm Bill, which will give US farmers an extra $9 billion a year in government aid.

But today the US Ambassador to Australia, Tom Schieffer, a close friend of the President, flashed an extraordinary green light for a free trade deal, which Australia calls its number one bilateral priority.

[Fires of History]

Vox,

And o' my brothers, would you believe that they were playing none other than Ludwig Van? (I mean, Coulter...lol) AAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

Yes, Vox, that was frustration talking...years of frustration. I know that the heart of America is a fine one, those people just trying to make their way. I was there, born and raised. I know. Good people, oppressed people- for the most part. And, I agree with you that all aren't like that, but the rest of the world wouldn't know. I live in Canada now, about as close to the US as you can get, and to all appearances up here Bush is happily and widely supported. The left needs to get a little louder down there- especially on an international level. But maybe what I'm talking about is unique to Canada, especially since the US is working hard to take it over too (buy it all, that is).

I guess what I was getting at was an idea of justice. I simply want to see those criminals in power pay for their crimes, period. And how will this be done? How will "America" pay for their countless attrocities? Just thinking out loud here. Which is what I meant, I would just like to see the US have a taste of it's own medicine for once. And, yes, I still hope that one day it does. At least those in power. A revolution is the best answer.

But yes, Coulter makes my blood boil in a way it hasn't in a long time. Perhaps because she is so popular. Not jealously of course, just the way one reacts to watching a crime. It's wrong. You know it's wrong, and you want to do something about it. Americans just seem, for the most part, to want to listen to whatever makes them feel good. Not the truth, just what makes them feel good. Good, and right. Or should I say righteous?

Thanks for your links, I just brought it up and, yes, they look sad, great, but sad. Thanks again...I think...lol

[IHP]

ArgueEverything,

thanks for the great article on Mundine. so it wasn't that he SEEMED to almost condone the S11 attacks, it was that he was against the war. and because he was a public figure, the media shut him up quick smart. bastards.

--IHP

[deadpool 52]

Quote: from Fires of History on 1:31 am on Oct. 1, 2002
And o' my brothers, would you believe that they were playing none other than Ludwig Van? (I mean, Coulter...lol) AAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!


NICE A Clockwork Orange reference.

Will not be long before China finally turns into a superpower, Germany and France get fed up enough with the U$ and declare some sort of embargo, later war.
Thinking about getting out of this country before the next World War starts.