Israel vs Ireland football match

[BOZG]

As you all probably don't know, Ireland played Israel yesterday, in Dublin for the qualifiers for World Cup 2006. The first game between the two was played a number of months back in Tel Aviv. At the game in Tel Aviv, the Israeli Football Association, Tourist Board and whatever other organisations would deal with this type of thing pulled out all the stops in order to accomodate Irish fans, putting on free pints of Guinness and other things in order to give themselves a good image to Irish fans, which they generally succeeded with.

For the return game though, the IrishPalestine Solidarity Campaign, backed up by a number of left parties like the SWP and some of the anarchist organisations organised a protest and a march to the Israeli embassy, also calling for Palestinian flags to be waved at the game. The basic reasons why they organised this protest are quite obvious so I won't go into them but they also pointed out that because Irish fans had received such a 'nice' welcome while in Israel that they wished to give Israeli fans, a different welcome in order to highlight the oppression of the Palestinian people.

I am just wondering what comrade's opinions are on such a demonstration. Is it an acceptable form of protest to highlight the occupation or does it amount to placing the horrors of continuous bourgeois Israeli governments on ordinary Israelis? I would be very much agreeing with the latter point that while this demonstration wasn't one of anti-Semitism, that it amounted to a level of Islamophilia and the attitude that all Israelis are to blame for the occupation of Palestine. It would be important to take note that a lot of emphasis was put on the treatment of Irish fans in Israel and how it was not to give Israeli fans the idea that Irish people opposed the occupation. And before someone suggests it, I'm not trying to make the point that politics should be divorced from sport, but that organising a demonstration like this, with the slant that it had, should not be supported.

Edit: Wrong date

[bolshevik butcher]

Well i think that since the football team represents israel then this is a viable protest.

[cenlcehd fsit]

me to, i thnik that since the footbal team repersents isreal then this is a viabel protest.

[Anti-establishment]

I did a project in my A-Level politics class on the IPSC, I really don't see the trouble with protesting in this manner.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Well, what's stopping Palestinians from forming their own team?

[Anti-establishment]

They have their own team, thats not what the protest was about.

[BOZG]

Originally posted by Anti-[email protected] 5 2005, 12:40 PM
I did a project in my A-Level politics class on the IPSC, I really don't see the trouble with protesting in this manner.
I don't have a problem with protesting in this manner. Irish rubgy fans boycotted games against South Africa in the 1980s and I would support that. My point was that this was not a demonstration organised to show opposition to the Israeli state but to demonstrate against Israeli fans under the impression that all Israelis share the responsibility for the occupation of Palestine, that the crimes of Israeli capitalism are also the crimes of the Israeli working class. A demonstration could have been organised that clearly stated that this was a show of solidarity with the Palestinian people and a boycott of the Israeli state, not an attack on ordinary Israelis who shouldn't be held accountable for the crimes of their national bourgeoisie.

[Edelweiss]

I think such actions are complete bullshit! I can't see simular action at other national football games with nations which are involved in governmental crimes. It seems highly selective to me, and yes, I do assume anti-semitic motives for some of the people and organisations invloved in that. As you have said BOZG, the actions seems mainly addressed to the supporters if the Israeli team, and also the Israeli team itself. But have these people actually anything to do with the politics of their government, or do they represent it? Of course not. It's obviuos that there where simply targeted because they are Jews, not even because they are Israelis, I'm sure there have been many Jewish non-Israelis that day supporting the Israeli team. Supporting the Israeli national team does NOT mean supporting the occupation, or the criminal politics of the Sharon administration. I agree 100% with BOZG when he says that this was "placing the horrors of continuous bourgeois Israeli governments on ordinary Israelis".
Many "ordinary Isaelis" are opposed to the politics of Sharon and the treatment of the Palestinians, there are (mostly young) anti-zionists even within Israel. Especially the football culture seems to be a place of resistance and class consciousness. Here's a proof, this are supporter of the Iraeli team "Hapoel tel-aviv":

http://ultrashapoel.com/gallery/albums/hta_mta1-0/5_G.sized.jpg

Do I need to say any more?
The actions decribed by BOZG are an embaressment to the Left, and the only thing it's reaching is to drive progressive Israelis into the arms of reactionaries, it will give ammo to our enemies who will use this as an proof of leftist anti-semitism.

I hope Irsael will qualifiy for the World Cup here in Germany (the chances are not that bad...), and will even play against Germany there. I'll enjoy to go into the stadium than with a flag of Israel and will support and defend the Israeli team against fucking Germans and others trying the same bullshit here, or even worser, confront the Isaeli team with open, right-wing anti-semitism. Which would be not very unlikely to happen.

[Anti-establishment]

Sorry I still don't see it as blind anti-semitism, they were targeted because they were Israeli, not Jewish, these people have done some dodgy things in the past, like protest at an Israeli dance show in Belfast, but this one doesn't seem blindly anti-semitic, I doubt the israeli fans were ever in physical danger, and if they were it was probably i small number of anti-semites using the protest as a cover, the group certainly would not have advocated it.

I think the group knew that many Israeli's would be watching the game at home on tv back in Israel, and just wanted to send a message to the people there.

[Edelweiss]

they were targeted because they were Israeli, not Jewish

If you have read BOZG's and my post carefully, you'll understand why that is totally wrong as well.

[Anti-establishment]

I'm not saying that targeting people because of nationality is right either, but I just think the protest was there because the group knew it would get lots of media coverage.

[BOZG]

This demonstration was not really an example of anti-semitism as I stated above but rather, a development of the unprincipled attempts of some left-wing organisations to promote themselves in the eyes of the Islamic community. On its own, this is not a problem. All left organisations should champion the rights of minorities who face severe repressions, Palestinians included but some left organisations have gone on a complete binge of kowtowing to Islam, changing their programme and ideas in order not to offend Muslims.

Some of my comrades went to the assembly point to hand out leaflets and intervene but didn't participate in the march due to it's disgusting slant towards attacking ordinary Israelis. Many Israeli fans actually came over to the demonstration to see what was going on and while there were some provocative Israelis (see Indymedia.ie), the majority of which they got talking to, were sympathetic with the Palestinian cause and were opposed to Sharon or at very worst, wished for a situation of peaceful co-existance.

[BOZG]

Originally posted by Anti-[email protected] 5 2005, 01:04 PM
I think the group knew that many Israeli's would be watching the game at home on tv back in Israel, and just wanted to send a message to the people there.
To send what message? That working class Israelis are responsible for the crimes of their bourgeoisie?

[Anti-establishment]

Maybe that that group is against the occupation and pro-palestinian, perhaps

[Lincoln Socialist]

Hi, new to this board. I have to say this protest was limited and did not have the necessary perspective to highlight the appalling atrocities meted out to the Palestinian people. It should be borne in mind that many working class Israelis are against Sharon's actions in the West Bank and Gaza. Protests at sporting events are perfectly legitimate but should present the correct programme and not seek to vilify ordinary working class fans who merely wish to support their team (not necessarily their nation state). Great care should be taken to ensure that it does not come across as anti-semitic, an angle that the SWP are notoriously poor at covering. As previously stated by some members, this is of course a selective action as if you were to demonstrate against all nations involved in inhumanity and repression about the only place you would leave alone would be Antarctica (bloody penguins).

[Edelweiss]

Sorry I still don't see it as blind anti-semitism

I don't see it as blind anti-semitism either, I think the best way to decribe it, is "structural anti-semitism".

[Anti-establishment]

structural anti-israelism maybe. I didnt see them burning the Torah or the likes of that.

[BOZG]

Originally posted by Anti-[email protected] 5 2005, 01:17 PM
Maybe that that group is against the occupation and pro-palestinian, perhaps
But the group weren't promoting that. They very clearly stated that they were going to do the opposite to how Irish fans were treated in Israel.

[Anti-establishment]

Fair point that is out of order, but still doesn't seem anti-semitic to me, just an attempt to show those Israeli's who treated Irish fans well that their facade of a great country where everyone should holiday didn't work.

[Edelweiss]

a great country where everyone should holiday didn't work

Yeah, I'm sure treating the Irish fans well was a conspiracy of the booming Israeli tourism industry. :lol:

[Anti-establishment]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2005, 12:18 PM
At the game in Tel Aviv, the Israeli Football Association, Tourist Board and whatever other organisations would deal with this type of thing pulled out all the stops in order to accomodate Irish fans, putting on free pints of Guinness and other things in order to give themselves a good image to Irish fans, which they generally succeeded with.


Free pints of guinness? Come on.

[BOZG]

I can't remember the other functions they layed on for them. The point was that the they were spening a lot of money on Irish fans.

[Anti-establishment]

In the hope that they would leave with a good impression, and return.

[bolshevik butcher]

Actually i don't see howt hese protests are directly against hte fans, they seemd to be mroe direceted against israel in general.

[dso79]

I agree that ordinary Israelis are not always responsible for the crimes of their government, but to me it didn‘t seem like an attack on ordinary Israelis either. Where does it say that they were demonstrating against the fans, and not against the state?


It's obviuos that there where simply targeted because they are Jews

That’s bullshit! Stop making baseless accusations! These people were just showing their support for the Palestinian cause. If the Palestinians had been oppressed by non-jews they would have protested as well. It’s ok to criticize their methods, but labelling those well-meaning people anti-semites is absolutely disgusting! :angry:

[Edelweiss]

If the Palestinians had been oppressed by non-jews they would have protested as well.

That is exactly what I doubt! And that is what I meant with structural anti-semitism in my earlier post. I'm repeating myself, but this protests seems to be very selective, I never have heard of any simular actions at football games of other nations involved in governmental crime, and there are a lot.

I do not say that everyone attending that protests is an anti-semite, of course not. But the whole form and occassian of the protest is an outrage for every leftist IMO. If they want to protest the Israeli government, they can go and protest in front of the Israeli embassy. That is totaly legitimate. But the targets of the protests where clearly the supporters of the Israeli team (as I said, many of them probaply not even Israeli citizens) and the Israeli national team itself, why denying that? For fucks sake, the protests occured in front of them! Don't be chanting, dso79.

[Phalanx]

Originally posted by Clenched [email protected] 5 2005, 04:05 PM
Actually i don't see howt hese protests are directly against hte fans, they seemd to be mroe direceted against israel in general.
If this is directed against the people of Israel, i will have nothing of it. If it is a protest against the Israeli government, you have my support.

[RedSkinheadUltra]

https://israel.indymedia.org/usermedia/image/4/1dsc_0179israel-irl2.jpg
https://israel.indymedia.org/usermedia/image/8/4dsc_0198israel-irl2.jpg
https://israel.indymedia.org/usermedia/image/6/5dsc_0200israel-irl2.jpg
https://israel.indymedia.org/usermedia/image/4/6dsc_0219israel-irl2.jpg
http://www.indymedia.ie/attachments/jun2005/dsc9906.jpg
http://www.indymedia.ie/attachments/jun2005/dsc9910.jpg
https://israel.indymedia.org/usermedia/image/2/7dsc_0306israel-irl2.jpg
http://www.indymedia.ie/attachments/jun2005/1walldsc_0043israelirl2.jpg
http://www.indymedia.ie/attachments/jun2005/3dsc_0166israelirl2.jpg
http://www.indymedia.ie/attachments/jun2005/dsc_0092israelirl2.jpg
http://www.indymedia.ie/attachments/jun2005/dsc_0086israelirl2.jpg
http://www.indymedia.ie/attachments/jun2005/dsc_0097israelirl2.jpg
http://www.indymedia.ie/attachments/jun2005/dsc_0098israelirl2.jpg

[Anti-establishment]

yea those fans are doin their best to stay out of trouble. <_<

All be it 3, still enough to provoke a fracas.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

I am on BOZG&#39;s and Malte&#39;s side on this one. The people there came to see 22 guys kick against a ball, not to support the state of Israel, nor it&#39;s policies, nor is there anything that indicates that these people support Israel. It&#39;s an overgeneralization, which will scare off people to the rightwing. This seems to come from the continuing trend among the mainstream left to incorperate muslims.


I hope Irsael will qualifiy for the World Cup here in Germany (the chances are not that bad...), and will even play against Germany there. I&#39;ll enjoy to go into the stadium than with a flag of Israel and will support and defend the Israeli team against fucking Germans and others trying the same bullshit here, or even worser, confront the Isaeli team with open, right-wing anti-semitism. Which would be not very unlikely to happen.

Anyway, with this post I was just enjoying it and nodding yes. Untill this part:


I&#39;ll enjoy to go into the stadium than with a flag of Israel

However I support your motives. I do think that this is the wrong approach. What I regard wrong in this protest is how it generalizes people based on their nationality. Nationalism is our enemy. It divides us, making us easier prey for the bourgeoisie. By going to to that stadion with an Israeli flag, you directly fuel Israeli nationalism and directly damage us revolutionaries. Instead of this pick up the good old reddie or circle A or a banner: workingclass unity. Or whatever that helps us and damages the bourgeoisie.

Anyway, I hope I misread your post and otherwise you&#39;ll know my opinion.

[American_Trotskyist]

Just an idol question, but why would Anarchist support a nationalist cause? Why were they there?

[infoterror]

Originally posted by Non&#045;Sectarian Bastard&#33;@Jun 6 2005, 02:15 AM
Nationalism is our enemy. It divides us, making us easier prey for the bourgeoisie.
I don&#39;t agree. The bourgeoisie have always been internationalist, but the people who care most for the people have been local governments.

[Edelweiss]

However I support your motives. I do think that this is the wrong approach. What I regard wrong in this protest is how it generalizes people based on their nationality. Nationalism is our enemy. It divides us, making us easier prey for the bourgeoisie. By going to to that stadion with an Israeli flag, you directly fuel Israeli nationalism and directly damage us revolutionaries. Instead of this pick up the good old reddie or circle A or a banner: workingclass unity. Or whatever that helps us and damages the bourgeoisie.

Well, I don&#39;t even really disagree with you. I admit that that part of my post was deliberately provocative, and not fully serious. I actually would have awaited much angrier reactions from some here. What I wanted to illustrate is that in a simular situation here in Germany, which will eventually actually happen at the world cup, I woud be on the side of the Isaraeli team supporters, not on the side of some pseudo-leftist protestors.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

I don&#39;t agree. The bourgeoisie have always been internationalist, but the people who care most for the people have been local governments.


No the bourgeoisie has never been truly united, nor do local governments care for people. That bit of unification is merely under the threat of stronger bourgeoisies. Local governments only act on behalf of the central government. Standing between the citizen and the bourgeoisie, they have the task of both carrying out the orders of the bourgeoisie and appeasing the local citizen. This is one possible explanation for the illusion that local governments "care" about citizens.


What I wanted to illustrate is that in a simular situation here in Germany, which will eventually actually happen at the world cup, I woud be on the side of the Isaraeli team supporters, not on the side of some pseudo-leftist protestors.

I can see your point. But I rather stand in a third "crowd" all alone chanting the right stuff, then throwing myself in one of the reactionary camps.

[Intifada]

I agree with what N-SB, BOZG and Malte have all stated.

The protest is perfectly legitimate, as long as it is directed against the state of Israel. Directing such protests at Israeli football fans will only alienate those Israeli people. We cannot afford to do that, and it is counter-productive in the struggle to free the Palestinian people from the oppressive Israeli Government.

[Redmau5]

If you don&#39;t support the state of Israel, why would you support the national team? Im from Northern Ireland and i don&#39;t support this "state", so there&#39;s no way in hell i&#39;d ever support the national team.

[Intifada]

Here (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/350FB8C0-11C5-41A1-BC13-C493E891050B.htm?GUID={F0328E76-38EF-454F-8A69-8646635A1904}) is an interesting article about Israel&#39;s fooball team, and how much they owe to Arabs for being in the position they are in.

[dso79]

If they want to protest the Israeli government, they can go and protest in front of the Israeli embassy. That is totaly legitimate.

According to BOZG, “the IPSC…organised a protest and a march to the Israeli embassy“, and if you look at the pictures and read the comments from Indymedia.ie you’ll see that they were indeed protesting in front of the Israeli embassy.


But the targets of the protests where clearly the supporters of the Israeli team (as I said, many of them probaply not even Israeli citizens) and the Israeli national team itself, why denying that?

I don’t know where you got your information, but I read the IPSC statement and looked at the pictures from Indymedia.ie and saw nothing that indicated that they were targeting the fans. It looked like a normal pro-Palestine march to the Israeli embassy, and as far as I could tell there were no football fans where they were protesting, apart from the three in the picture. So I’m not denying it, but until I see some evidence I’m not believing it either.


That is exactly what I doubt&#33; And that is what I meant with structural anti-semitism in my earlier post.

I don’t see any indication that anti-semitism played a role. The target of the demo may have been inappropriate (though I‘m still not sure about that), but I am convinced that their intentions were good. You shouldn’t make such an accusation against fellow leftists when you have no evidence to back it up. That will only further divide the left and if we want to achieve something we should be united.

Anyway, I don’t think the protesters hate ordinary Israelis. Look at the pics, they even tried to write something in Hebrew :) : Say “lo” to “afrada” (they probably meant ‘hafrada‘), which means ‘Say no to separation.’

[BOZG]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 04:50 PM
I don’t know where you got your information, but I read the IPSC statement and looked at the pictures from Indymedia.ie and saw nothing that indicated that they were targeting the fans. It looked like a normal pro-Palestine march to the Israeli embassy, and as far as I could tell there were no football fans where they were protesting, apart from the three in the picture. So I’m not denying it, but until I see some evidence I’m not believing it either.
They never made any of the points about the fans in their statements, it was raised at meetings where this demonstration was raised.