E-book for beginners

[Ace]

I am currently writing an e-book that is basically an introduction to the idea of communism, with writings ranging from Marx to Trotsky I have assembled (with the help of marx.org's "copyleft" policy) an e-book that is filled with selective writings from Marx, Lenin, Trotsky, and Engel's. But even with this material I am a little unsatisfied. I feel like I need a section that would tell the reader how communism who come about in what I refer to as "Red Nation".

I would like to ask you all questions on certain policies you would like to see in the new communist government. Also tell me how you want socialism to come about in "Red Nation". Are you a communist pacifist? Are you a communist revolutionist? etc.. Be creative and give the reader a good sense of how we would destroy capitalism and how we would run a communist government.

Of course I could do this on my own, but I feel its better if we could all be united in discussing these matters. For once we should put away our petty differences and come to some conclusion on how you would like this nation to be run. Some questions are:

1) How is crime controlled?
2) Will there be a occupying force?
3) Is there police or militia?
4) Is religion tolerated?
5) Would we be more involved in foreign affairs?
6) Would there be a soviet government or one that reflects that of the current federal government (assuming Red nation has a federal government)
7) What will be some social programs?
8) Does everyone get paid the same
9) Is a communist/socialist government economically or militarily weak?

etc.. etc.. etc..

If you would like to add questions for other members to discuss please do so. We need to give Marxist beginners a sense of unity in our cause, not the petty arguments that can occur between communists and anarchists or Maoists and Trotskyites. I am trying to get opinions to create a "unofficial neo-communist manifesto" to give young Marxists a sense of how we work, what we believe and like I have said, a sense of unity. Please feel free to add anything you wish to this discussion that is related to the topic. I plan to let this topic run for 2-3 months before I start writing my commie FAQ. I encourage you all to make a contribution to this thread.

Like the great minds before us, we are united once again to create a manifesto for our modern capitalist times.

[KptnKrill]

by "communist" do you mean communists in general or just marxists?

[anomaly]

My answers to Ace's list of questions:

1. crime will be controlled by a police force maintained by the state, basically the wya it is today in most every country. The local government, which is of course elected democratically, will maintain the police force. Since it is controlled by a democratic body, we need not worry about excessive police brutality. These occurences will be handled accordingly. But, in short, policing won't changem uch from the way it is done in the USA (of course, people won't be arrested for being Marxists, as happened in the '50s).

2. What do you mena by 'ocupying force'? Somethingl ike martial law or what? The 'force' that will occupy the country will be the democratic government. But again, please explain your quetion, ACE.

3. There is both police (to handle crime) and milita (to handle any foreign threats). The milita will be very cheaply maintained by the government. Basically, the local government will set up local militias in which every citizen participates. Militia won't be an occupation, rather it will more resemble the national guard of today (only with everyone pariticpating). The milita is solely for defensive purposes.

4. Religion is tolerated, although the state will be a secular one; it will not promote any one religion, but rather it will tolerate all religions and beliefs.

5. More involved than...? Again, I think that we would not be involved militarily with any foreign nation, hopefully (unless they attack us), but involvement such as trade wiht foreign countries will be neccesary to survive. I push and hope for a purely 'socialist trade', that is, have several countries become socialist and then form a trade alliance, so that hopefully we can nearly completely abolish ties with capitalist countries. This trade alliance could potentially be self sufficient, which is always a good thing.

6. There would be a federal government. A democratic one. From there, we'd see a state or province government and a local governement. The local governement will actually be the one most involved with economic planning, as it will make sure that planning happens to meet state and federal standards.

7. I envision a social security system, much like the one the US currently has, welfare policy in the form of redistributive policy based on income, nationalized healthcare, graduated free distribution of basic essentials like food. I also think that the government will make sure everyone has some form of shelter. The government will allow people to own their own homes, of course, but for those without the financial capabilities to do so, I think the government will maintain homeless shelters, thereby ensuring the growth of such shelters to ensure that anyone who needs shelter can get it.

8. Everyone does not get paid the same. That being said, all wages will be made high enough so that any worker can afford the costs of living in his particular country.

9. The government is no economically weak, nor is it militarily weak, as all militias will receive some basic training in guerrilla warfare, so that even if an advanced military attacks our countr,y the militia will be able to fight it.

[VukBZ2005]

1
What anomaly is saying is nothing more than advocating for the creation of a
"socialist" society with a sturcture that supports both "workers'" militias and
local police forces - not to mention that although the "socialist" state would be
secular - religion on a whole would be tolerated. Anomaly also is advocating for
a "socialist" society that has a federal government with provinces and mancipa
-lities and so on - but it would be "democratic". Not only that - there would be a
"social security" system in anomaly's "socialist" state.

2
Hmm.. sounds like our modern bourgeois, capitalist state with a few "socialist"
modifications. I personally feel that fighting for such a society is totally useless.
No matter how you imagine it from your continuing viewpoint; there would still
be alienation, there would still be classes - there would still be a state - only with
modified "socialist" modifications. In my view - we should be fighting for a class
-less, stateless, liberated society - not for the same thing - with a few modificati
-ons. So can you explain to me why, exactly would you want the establishment
of a "socialist" state anomaly with nearly the same caracteristics as today's mo
-dern capitalist society, anomaly?

[I will elaborate on my answers for Ace's questions tomorrow - it's late here.]

[Ace]

by "communist" do you mean communists in general or just marxists?

Whatever your beliefs may be, marxists AND anarchist's are welcome to respond.



2. What do you mena by 'ocupying force'? Somethingl ike martial law or what? The 'force' that will occupy the country will be the democratic government. But again, please explain your quetion, ACE.

Generaly, people see "communist" nations as police state's. So, maybe some of the stalinists here would agree with such a idea. Although I really wouldn't know, I never really read any of stalins material.

btw, when I asked by the militia and police force, I was wondering if it would be similar to the soviet unions aproach to the issue. Like, do you think the police should be replaced with a militia unit that is under the control of the state? Or would you rather keep the current system, as in: local police, state troopers, FBI, etc..



5. More involved than...? Again, I think that we would not be involved militarily with any foreign nation, hopefully (unless they attack us), but involvement such as trade wiht foreign countries will be neccesary to survive. I push and hope for a purely 'socialist trade', that is, have several countries become socialist and then form a trade alliance, so that hopefully we can nearly completely abolish ties with capitalist countries. This trade alliance could potentially be self sufficient, which is always a good thing.


Good anwser, but I was wondering if the socialist government would take an "isolationist" position or would you like to remain the "police" of the world? \


Remember, all these questions are to help people form a common agreement on selected issue's, This discussion is for everyone and hopefully by the end of the discussion people (be you anarchist or marxist) will have a general agreence on many issue's. Also, please ask questions of your own if you would like. Thanks!

[anomaly]

Originally posted by Communist [email protected] 6 2005, 06:17 AM
1
What anomaly is saying is nothing more than advocating for the creation of a
"socialist" society with a sturcture that supports both "workers'" militias and
local police forces - not to mention that although the "socialist" state would be
secular - religion on a whole would be tolerated. Anomaly also is advocating for
a "socialist" society that has a federal government with provinces and mancipa
-lities and so on - but it would be "democratic". Not only that - there would be a
"social security" system in anomaly's "socialist" state.

2
Hmm.. sounds like our modern bourgeois, capitalist state with a few "socialist"
modifications. I personally feel that fighting for such a society is totally useless.
No matter how you imagine it from your continuing viewpoint; there would still
be alienation, there would still be classes - there would still be a state - only with
modified "socialist" modifications. In my view - we should be fighting for a class
-less, stateless, liberated society - not for the same thing - with a few modificati
-ons. So can you explain to me why, exactly would you want the establishment
of a "socialist" state anomaly with nearly the same caracteristics as today's mo
-dern capitalist society, anomaly?

[I will elaborate on my answers for Ace's questions tomorrow - it's late here.]
Since the ogvernment would be under the control of the proletariat, they would be proletarian police, or police that are controlled by the electorate, by the proletariat. So wait, secular states must opress religion? And a socialist state would not have a federal gvernment? Do you know whta nationalizing is? You want know government organization, yet you want socialism? Do you know what socialism is? It is a system of government planning, a system which I have explained in detail before ('theory' forum, 'socialist economy' thread). Social security is simply a social program, one headed by the state for the people. It will be a system like the one the USA uses. It will not be privatized. Its another redistributive policy of sorts, besides the general welfare policy I outline. And to clarify, it would ba a democratic republic. Pure democracy is simply a utopian dream except on a small scale. I advocate complete democracy on the most local of scales, such as small towns or burroughs of large cities. Perhaps you should simply respond to ACE, instead of debating with me, atleast for now. I want to see what you think, not just what you disagree with.

Ah, now I see. Your simply utopian. You want a 'classless' state, yet you still must be part of the global world. So how in your wonderful classless state (there is only a lcassless world possible, what you advocate is communism, and communism is simply not attainable with a capitalist world, we must first have world socialism and then world communism), will trade take place? Surely you do not advocate anything as silyl as equal wages? If you have equal wages rright after a capitalist system goes away, how can you expect any work to get done? Why be a doctor when you could be a busboy, and still make the smae thing? Equal wages would successfulyl crumble any economy. If you really want to see how my system is different from capitalism, go check out that thread I submetted you earlier. Basically I have a locally planned economy, with a bureacratic system. But it's much more detailed than that. Go check it out. That's the system I want, a socialist one first, then a communist one. Your system is simply unattainable in today's world with globalized capitalism. We must first destroy capitalism completely, only then can communism arise.

[anomaly]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 04:50 PM

by "communist" do you mean communists in general or just marxists?

Whatever your beliefs may be, marxists AND anarchist's are welcome to respond.



2. What do you mena by 'ocupying force'? Somethingl ike martial law or what? The 'force' that will occupy the country will be the democratic government. But again, please explain your quetion, ACE.

Generaly, people see "communist" nations as police state's. So, maybe some of the stalinists here would agree with such a idea. Although I really wouldn't know, I never really read any of stalins material.

btw, when I asked by the militia and police force, I was wondering if it would be similar to the soviet unions aproach to the issue. Like, do you think the police should be replaced with a militia unit that is under the control of the state? Or would you rather keep the current system, as in: local police, state troopers, FBI, etc..



5. More involved than...? Again, I think that we would not be involved militarily with any foreign nation, hopefully (unless they attack us), but involvement such as trade wiht foreign countries will be neccesary to survive. I push and hope for a purely 'socialist trade', that is, have several countries become socialist and then form a trade alliance, so that hopefully we can nearly completely abolish ties with capitalist countries. This trade alliance could potentially be self sufficient, which is always a good thing.


Good anwser, but I was wondering if the socialist government would take an "isolationist" position or would you like to remain the "police" of the world? \


Remember, all these questions are to help people form a common agreement on selected issue's, This discussion is for everyone and hopefully by the end of the discussion people (be you anarchist or marxist) will have a general agreence on many issue's. Also, please ask questions of your own if you would like. Thanks!
Hmm, your ideas on the police force have given me a new idea. Perhaps we should have local law enforcement units, and that will be an occupation. For the arms of the law enforcement, we can have the milita units volunteer for duty on the police arms force. That is, we'd have a law enforcement system of basic detectives and other things to watch for and detect crimes, and the local militia (which will include every citizen, of course with an age requirement, probably 18) to volunteer to bring criminals to justice, if arms are needed (often, no weaponry is needed these days). So I think I'd have to opt with the milita actually being the guarding force for every local area, and the law enforcement will act independently of the milita, calling for the militia's aid when it is needed. Also, this volunterr police work would be excellent training for new members of the local milita.

Well, since socialist nations will likely often be poor ones, they will not be the 'police of the world'. They will be as isolationist as possible, as the goal remember is to defend the country but start no military offensives. But of course trade initiatives must exist, if we want the new socialist country to survive. So I suppose it would be an isolationist position , in the ways you define.

[Guest_Ace]

Originally posted by anomaly+Jun 7 2005, 03:29 AM--> (anomaly @ Jun 7 2005, 03:29 AM)
[email protected] 6 2005, 04:50 PM

by "communist" do you mean communists in general or just marxists?

Whatever your beliefs may be, marxists AND anarchist's are welcome to respond.



2. What do you mena by 'ocupying force'? Somethingl ike martial law or what? The 'force' that will occupy the country will be the democratic government. But again, please explain your quetion, ACE.

Generaly, people see "communist" nations as police state's. So, maybe some of the stalinists here would agree with such a idea. Although I really wouldn't know, I never really read any of stalins material.

btw, when I asked by the militia and police force, I was wondering if it would be similar to the soviet unions aproach to the issue. Like, do you think the police should be replaced with a militia unit that is under the control of the state? Or would you rather keep the current system, as in: local police, state troopers, FBI, etc..



5. More involved than...? Again, I think that we would not be involved militarily with any foreign nation, hopefully (unless they attack us), but involvement such as trade wiht foreign countries will be neccesary to survive. I push and hope for a purely 'socialist trade', that is, have several countries become socialist and then form a trade alliance, so that hopefully we can nearly completely abolish ties with capitalist countries. This trade alliance could potentially be self sufficient, which is always a good thing.


Good anwser, but I was wondering if the socialist government would take an "isolationist" position or would you like to remain the "police" of the world? \


Remember, all these questions are to help people form a common agreement on selected issue's, This discussion is for everyone and hopefully by the end of the discussion people (be you anarchist or marxist) will have a general agreence on many issue's. Also, please ask questions of your own if you would like. Thanks!
Hmm, your ideas on the police force have given me a new idea. Perhaps we should have local law enforcement units, and that will be an occupation. For the arms of the law enforcement, we can have the milita units volunteer for duty on the police arms force. That is, we'd have a law enforcement system of basic detectives and other things to watch for and detect crimes, and the local militia (which will include every citizen, of course with an age requirement, probably 18) to volunteer to bring criminals to justice, if arms are needed (often, no weaponry is needed these days). So I think I'd have to opt with the milita actually being the guarding force for every local area, and the law enforcement will act independently of the milita, calling for the militia's aid when it is needed. Also, this volunterr police work would be excellent training for new members of the local milita.

Well, since socialist nations will likely often be poor ones, they will not be the 'police of the world'. They will be as isolationist as possible, as the goal remember is to defend the country but start no military offensives. But of course trade initiatives must exist, if we want the new socialist country to survive. So I suppose it would be an isolationist position , in the ways you define. [/b]
I think your suggestions for a volunteer militia are wonderful. Limit the seperate and more professional police forces so in a time of need they must rely on there own people to police themselves. I think this is a good step into destroying the affects of capitalism had over the people.

It would give them a sense of responsibility and above all else, a feeling of power. The power to decide what happens in there communities. Also it would prevent state police corruption, because the police depend on the community to excersise there police powers.

As for your idea of isolationism, I agree and disagree. We should assist communist/socialist revolutions if its required. But then again thats what our capitalist masters do now, then force "fake" democracies on the people to reach there own greedy ends. So that is a topic that would be good to cover, although I guess che said it the best when he said "I am not a liberator, the people liberate themselves". The same princebles can be applied to police actions by a socialist America.

Keep this discussion moving, its really thought provoking.

[Ace]

Edit: that was me up top, i forgot to log in.

[D_Bokk]

1)
Crime should be controlled by use of labor camps. In no way the kind we witnessed in the USSR. Due to the cost to have prisoners, they will need to work enough to pay their own expenses. The facility must be humane and livable. When the criminal is ready to be re-introduced to society, the government should set them up with a job right after they leave so they do not end up on the street. They should also be granted a small apartment for a short period of time until they can afford a better living space... all these expenses would be payed for from their labor in prison. If by chance they don't spend enough time in prison, then they will be required to pay through taxes. Not quite sure if this is what you were asking for, but the other way seemed obvious.

2)
There shouldn't be a need for an occupying force. Since people would generally want Socialism, the force would only be there as a symbol of oppression by the government.

3)
Police due ot expreience. I wouldn't want an unexprienced person patrolling a city every night.

4)
Tolerated, yes. There shouldn't be an churches or any hints of religion in politics. People should be allowed to practice their religion at home, but not in public places. Although I would suspect the amount of religious people would decline because no one is suffering, and that's the only reason I see why people worship God.

5)
As far as foreign affairs go, we would want to spread Socialism, but not to a point where we're bringing it to people who absolutly do not want it. We would want to help the poorer countries, given they have a government that isn't Capitalist.

6)
I would say a democratic federal government.

7)
Social Security.

8)
No, some jobs are more dangerous than others. If people are capable of dieing at their job, they deserve a slightly higher pay because their life may be shortened. The other safe occupations should have a simular pay based on an hourly rate, to ensure someone working more gets extra for their time spent.

9)
We shouldn't be military strong, but have enough military power incase the country was ever invaded, we wouldn't be defeated. Economically we should be strong.