Che in Bolivia

[gewehr_3]

Do you think he should have even gone to bolivia because a communist revolution is supposed to be supported by the people and barely any of the bolivians supported the communist revolution. At least he died for what he believed in id want to die that way too.....just not get shot in the arms and legs

[bed_of_nails]

I do not believe Bolivia was worth it. My knowledge on the later events in Bolivia is dismal at best, but I do not remember any revolution occuring later.

[TupacAndChe4Eva]

Its not as simple as whether a revolution occurred later or not.

The Bolivian Communist Party abandoned Che, and only after he had been murdered gained some balls and decided to help.

It WAS worth it, as if it had succeeded, it was bordered by numerous countries, which could, and probably would, have sparked revolutions there.

[RedSkinheadUltra]

From what I've read about the Bolivian expedition, I think it's fair to say it was a disaster from the start.

As already noted the guerillas did not have the support of the Party or any base of support among the masses.

Petty-bourgeois nationalism and peasant guerilla warfare are doomed to failure.

[S_Nylia]

I don't belive myself that che should have gone to Bolivia , but it was somthing he belived in enough to die for then obviously it was worth it . I am sure if che thought they were not worth his death then he would have not gone there in the first place , or he would have left shortly after the recption he recived while there. To die for your belifes is the best way to go i feel, id rather die knowing that at least i had tried to help even though it did not work. But then again have only been reading about che and the revoultionarys for the past year or so but i am sure that i can not be far off. :huh:

[Entrails Konfetti]

I heard somewhere that he originally wanted to go to Peru but, Fidel urged him to go to Bolivia.

[Clarksist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2005, 08:22 PM
From what I've read about the Bolivian expedition, I think it's fair to say it was a disaster from the start.

As already noted the guerillas did not have the support of the Party or any base of support among the masses.

Petty-bourgeois nationalism and peasant guerilla warfare are doomed to failure.
Che deeply believed that a guerilla force acting for the people would incite passion from the people.

Do I think it was worth it? No, we lost Che. He might have been able to get democracy in Cuba (doubtful). Or at least help with further revolutions. But maybe its best that he got sent into the halls of martyrdom. He has been very effective as a being an introduction to communism for many leftists.

[bassplayinllamas]

it didnt matter if che was going to die he believed that you should not think of your life in the matter of saving it he critisized others for running or trying to save their lives so i dont think it mattered to him as much....i read something very similair of that in the book by jon lee anderson it was from his diary i believe

[El Comandante]

As said by a woman in bolivia who saw che die:
"look at us. Nothing has changed since then. El Comandante came to soon. We were ignorant and did not understand him. We abandoned him and he died because of us, when he had come to save us so that we could have a better life, and here we are, just as we were before he came or maybe even worse"

... Che was not 2 know :(

[bighead631]

i read that the Bolivian communist didnt volunteer to fight because they believed that Che was to Maoist in his Communism

[The Z-Man]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2005, 08:14 AM
It WAS worth it, as if it had succeeded, it was bordered by numerous countries, which could, and probably would, have sparked revolutions there.
"Probably would, have sparked revoltions...?" Who cares what could have happend?


Well, if Che didn't die in Bolivia he wouldn't have been much of a martyr. His martyrism is what makes him so popular. So my answer is yes.

[Urban Guerrilla]

I from what I read he went to Bolivia twice in his time as a revolutionary :che:

[the fury]

The Bolivian, the Conglese cases were not as fruitful as they were in Cuba, But they were worth fighting for. although I don't like to get into analysis why I think they were futile, They were worth fighting for... If Che had died an old, frail man in Cuba like Fidel is right now, no one would have heard of him, no one would have praised his revolutionary sprit.

[the fury]

Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 21 2005, 02:48 AM
I from what I read he went to Bolivia twice in his time as a revolutionary :che:
No, He went there only once, as a revolutionary that is.

[Latin America]

Well if you guys didn't know Bolivia had couple years earlier Bolivia (1952) had a revolution!!! The people nationalize lots of foreign companies and issue land to people for cultivation!!! It was big!!!

[*REVOLUCIÓN*]

What really angers me is that the bolivians
don´t really treasure the sacrifice Che made!
And that he was fighting for them and they betrayed them..
BASTARDS

[cubalibra]

And they suffered for it. Now, Bolivia is ready for revolution!

[fernando]

Originally posted by Latin [email protected] 25 2005, 01:45 AM
Well if you guys didn't know Bolivia had couple years earlier Bolivia (1952) had a revolution!!! The people nationalize lots of foreign companies and issue land to people for cultivation!!! It was big!!!
true...but later on that just collapsed under the pro yankee leaders ;)

But was Che's mission in Bolivia worth it? I think Che would be pretty pissed off to see what they have turned him into, his death made him a martyr and a sex/pop symbol/icon, this was something Che was always against since he believed he was just a man, nothing special. However if the revolution in Bolivia was succesful he would probably have spread the whole thing out throughout South America. Peru and Chile would have become socialist, Argentina probably too. If we are to believe Ciro Bustos it was Che's plan to start a revolution in Argentina where they would probably all die. If we are to believe Jon Lee Anderson, Che would spread these revolutions after which the US would have the thin out their forces even more...then Che would try to get the Russians and Chinese to work together hence pressuring the US more making them weaker and weaker and perhaps even giving them their final defeat!

[MoscowFarewell]

If Che had indeed won, I believe a large spread of left wing would reach Latin America. I believed in his idea and thought it could have been successful. If Bolivia was taken, it would have made his ideas and uprisings quicker across South America, possibly turning it fully into one as he hoped for.

[KC]

He made so many critical errors in the Bolivian campaign and even went against what he himself wrote. It was doomed from the get-go.

[fernando]

That is very true, Guevara himself is to be put to the blame of the fiasco of the Bolivian campaign, however there were of course also outside factors, but they are not the sole reason f Che's failure.

[Commandante_Ant]

my opinion on both the bolivian and congo episodes are that as much as Che tried to organise his fighters, he was destined to fail. In the congo, he lost many good men through tragedys, one influential man (lumumba?) who drowned suspiciously. it also didnt help that the congolese werent happy at what they saw as intruders in their country, although these intruders were trying to help them.

The bolivian campaign was full of mistakes. From poor organisation to deserters, Che was destined to fail. And unfortunately he did.

[Reds]

But in a way che succseded in death with his influence as he could not in life.

[fernando]

Che however never wanted to become a symbol...Che saw himself as just a man, not as some saint or icon.

[amaru]

The communist Bolivian party didn't want Che to succeed and take credit in a revolution that they couldn't themselves organize. That's why they betrayed him and he was captured.

[fernando]

True the Bolivian communists ditched Che, them being loyal to Moscow and Che being loyal to the Revolution. However to blame the Communist Party for Che's failings...why didnt Che recruit anybody during his campaign, why not try to find people to join without the communist party?

[KC]

The communist Bolivian party didn't want Che to succeed and take credit in a revolution that they couldn't themselves organize. That's why they betrayed him and he was captured.

They didn't want foreigners coming in and taking control of their country.


True the Bolivian communists ditched Che, them being loyal to Moscow and Che being loyal to the Revolution. However to blame the Communist Party for Che's failings...why didnt Che recruit anybody during his campaign, why not try to find people to join without the communist party?

The Bolivian Communist Party didn't want foreigners taking control of their country. The leader of the BCP (whatever it was called) would have offered the full support of the country on the condition that he be in command; Che declined. This way he lost the support of the Communists and the students. The guerrillas were mostly Cuban. Also, Bolivia was just coming out of a revolution where they were given more freedom and all that stuff; the peasants saw the guerrillas as intruders in their country. This way he lost the peasants.

He had no support. He went against what he wrote (where the support of the workers and the students is the most important) and because of that he fucked himself over.

[Colombia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2005, 03:40 AM
[QUOTE]

He had no support. He went against what he wrote (where the support of the workers and the students is the most important) and because of that he fucked himself over.
This statement is somewhat incorrect. Che had plenty of support from the Bolivian Communists before and for a while after he went to Bolivia. After meeting with Monje and refusing to let him take command, Monje left him and his men to die. So I doubt it could be said that he fucked himself over.

[KC]

This statement is somewhat incorrect. Che had plenty of support from the Bolivian Communists before and for a while after he went to Bolivia. After meeting with Monje and refusing to let him take command, Monje left him and his men to die. So I doubt it could be said that he fucked himself over.

I did generalize somewhat. He fucked himself over when he didn't let Monje take command.

[guerillablack]

What makes are revolutionary figures so damn popular is because they are martyrs in their prime.

Michael Jordan dying in his prime would be different then him dying at 80

[fernando]

Yes the Bolivian communists were worried that the operation got too 'international'..ironic for communists who want an international revolution, but what could we expect for a movement which were lapdogs of the USSR. Another thing...eventhough Monje turned against Che he still claimed he would support him, so ditching Che and the rebels happened in secret sort of.

[MoscowFarewell]

It wasn't purely the Communist. It was the Pro-Soviets, the Soviet Union didn't want another Commie power in Latin America, and so the Soviet party refused to help Che. But Che couldn't ask the Pro-China Party or it would be against Fidel's wishes, but they would have assissted him had they been not imprisoned and as he was allowed to. If the Pro-Soviets did in fact help Che, there is a big chance he could have succeeded for most of the lower party members did in fact want to help him, but were threatened to be forcefully reisgned from the party if they in fact did. The people who were in his Guerilla movement and from Bolivia were immediatly expelled upon finding out.

[amaru]

What a tragedy!

[Che1990]

I've been reading the Bolivian Diary, Nearly finished it in fact. It would appear that the lack of support from the peasants was a major factor in the failure. However, there was a quote from a woman who lived near to where Che was murdered, saying, "It's a shame, El Commandante came to early, no one was ready for him. If he had come later, he may have succeeded." Or something along those lines. Just think, if Che had waited just a bit longer he could have had the peasants support and could still be alive today.

[MoscowFarewell]

Or if anyone bothered to educate them. The Pro-Soviets refused too and since the Pro-China were locked up, no one really could teach them the ideas.

[fernando]

Che and his guerillas tried to educate the people in some villages...but the people were just scared

[Marxist]

Che died as a hero and die for what he believed for. We all wish to die this way. MAy his ideals forever live in hearts of opressed! :che: :hammer: :cuba: :castro: :marx: :engles:

[Marxist]

Secondly , i think its good that Che died by martyr. He ided for he believed in and he left his memory as a true socialist :hammer:

[fernando]

I dont think he ever wanted to be a martyr, he just saw himself as just another man...