African Religious Values

[redstar2000]

There's probably not a single thread in this sub-forum dealing with religion in Africa and what it's really like.

Time to change that...


"Hundreds abused over witchcraft"

Hundreds of central African children living in the UK may have suffered abuse or even been killed after being accused of witchcraft, charities say.

The warning follows the conviction of three people over the torture of an eight-year-old girl.

Four London charities, working with people from central Africa, told BBC News this was not an isolated case.

The children may have been returned to their home countries for "deliverance services" or other punishments.

In one case it was claimed an Angolan child had been sent home two years ago, and had since been killed.

BBC correspondent Angus Crawford said community workers believed the growth of "breakaway churches" could be one possible cause of the abuse.

A minority of these preach a powerful blend of traditional African beliefs and evangelical Christianity.

Community workers also complain of ignorance on the part of the UK authorities, and a lack of resources to tackle the problem.

On Friday three adults were found guilty at the Old Bailey over the torture of an eight-year-old girl in Hackney, east London, after she was accused of witchcraft.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/uk_news/englan...don/4608943.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/uk_news/england/london/4608943.stm)

Never forget what the religious will do if they have the chance.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/223.gif

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Yeah, quite disturbing. Was over the news a while ago here in Holland, your smokey the bear picture is really inappropiate here. Poor children living a shitty life and getting killed, because of superstitious idiots :(

[guerillablack]

Out of the thousands, yes thousands of religions in Africa, you had to use this case to propogate your falsehood of all religion being bad/evil. How convenient!

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2005, 12:10 PM
Out of the thousands, yes thousands of religions in Africa, you had to use this case to propogate your falsehood of all religion being bad/evil. How convenient!
It's just the beginning -- the first thread on the subject.

After all, we "euro-centrists" have to start somewhere. :D

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/223.gif

[MetaZuton]

It should be noted that the 'exorcisms' which are coming to attention are generally rooted in christianity and it's twisting of native beliefs. Some christian churches in africa actively preach the need to be watchful for witchcraft in children so they can be exorcised.

This is not to say that traditional african religions are without their distasteful characteristics.

The body of a young boy that washed up in the thames, if you recall that, was found to have rock, bone and gold in it's stomach. This is consistent with muti ritual murder.

[guerillablack]

First of all, i doubt anyone here has any real working knowledge of Afrikan religion or spiritual systems. Just because Afrikan people practice a religion or because a religion is found in Afrika does not make it a Afrikan religion. If you put kittens in an oven does that make them biscuits?No, so first get your facts and definitions straight. Christianity is not a Afrikan religion because it is practiced in Afrika or by Afrikans. Second, many institutions claim to blend Afrikan traditional beliefs with christianity but this is not true. Afrikan traditionalist do not tortue children.

[LSD]

guerillablack, if you truly believe this, I think you should start a thread on it.

You keep jumping into other threads on religion and making this claim that there's an intrinsic difference between "western" religions and "Afrikan" ones. I have, however, yet to see you actually explain what that difference is!

If you actually have a theory on this, then by all means post it. That way we can all consider your evidence and rationale. But merely asserting it, no matter how many times you do, isn't going to convince anyone.

[Eastside Revolt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2005, 01:48 AM
Christianity is not a Afrikan religion because it is practiced in Afrika or by Afrikans.
I suppose you've never heard of King Soloman, or even the Ethiopian Orthodox Church?

Yeah, who's the ignorant one?

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2005, 07:35 PM
It should be noted that the 'exorcisms' which are coming to attention are generally rooted in christianity and it's twisting of native beliefs. Some christian churches in africa actively preach the need to be watchful for witchcraft in children so they can be exorcised.
It's true that Christian preachers in Africa are promoting witch-hunts. But this is also part of traditional religion there. Christianity has always adapted to the beliefs of the pagans it has been trying to convert - Dec. 25 was the holiday of a pagan god before it was Christmas, and Easter was the name of a Celtic goddess. The "Sacred Heart" symbol in Catholicism comes from Aztec human sacrifices (where the heart was cut out). This is just the latest example of the traditional religious beliefs of an area being incorporated into Christianity.

This isn't uniquely African either. Its existed pretty much everywhere at some time. In tribal societies all over the world, fear of withcraft is universal, and many deaths from sickness or other natural causes are blamed on witchcraft. So these deaths must be avenged, of course.

Africa is just a place where traditional belief in magic has survived longer and more strongly than in many others, because of its lack of economic development, widespread illiteracy, etc.

[guerillablack]

Originally posted by redcanada+Jun 6 2005, 12:32 AM--> (redcanada @ Jun 6 2005, 12:32 AM)
[email protected] 5 2005, 01:48 AM
Christianity is not a Afrikan religion because it is practiced in Afrika or by Afrikans.
I suppose you've never heard of King Soloman, or even the Ethiopian Orthodox Church?

Yeah, who's the ignorant one? [/b]
No, you are the ignorant one. I have heard of King Soloman, i know of the Ethiopian Church but none of these things make Christianity more any more Afrikan just like certain things wouldn't make it Eastern.

LSD, you have a brain, you have a computer. Your lack of will to even attempt to research Afrikan religion or spiritual systems shows your ethnocentric view and non objective standpoint. The fact that the only African religious thread here is biased and unfactual, is horrible. As revolutionaries we must research before we make claims or perform any action. We can't ban all religion or Afrikan religions are bad, if you don't know anything about Afrikan religion. NOONE here has showed a working understanding of Afrikan spiritual systems, however, some here have the audacity to talk negatively about it or even try to argue to ban it! Why you don't even know the first thing about it!

[LSD]

LSD, you have a brain, you have a computer. Your lack of will to even attempt to research Afrikan religion or spiritual systems shows your ethnocentric view and non objective standpoint. The fact that the only African religious thread here is biased and unfactual, is horrible. As revolutionaries we must research before we make claims or perform any action. We can't ban all religion or Afrikan religions are bad, if you don't know anything about Afrikan religion. NOONE here has showed a working understanding of Afrikan spiritual systems, however, some here have the audacity to talk negatively about it or even try to argue to ban it! Why you don't even know the first thing about it!

:angry:

What the hell is wrong with you?

If you have a point to make MAKE IT!

Stop asking that everyone else do your research for you.

Accept that no one here sees any fundamental difference between "western" and "Afrikan" religions in terms of their reactionary, superstitious, and dangerous nature.

If you want to disagree than PROVIDE SOME EVIDENCE. But continually asking that we search the internet to find proof for your claim is just ...stupid.

[Eastside Revolt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 03:42 AM
No, you are the ignorant one. I have heard of King Soloman, i know of the Ethiopian Church but none of these things make Christianity more any more Afrikan just like certain things wouldn't make it Eastern.
Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are all middle eastern. The point I was trying to make is that you make it sound like Christianity was the white-mans disease causing these people to abuse their childeren. The truth is that Christianity is just as African as it is European.

[guerillablack]

I have done my own research, i'm telling you to do your own damn research. Yes, Christianity, Judaism, Islam are middle eastern, i never said they was the white man's disease, those are your words. Too say Christianity is just as Afrikan as European is invalid and a false statement. Stop spreading lies. I don't know what the white man does with their children, about it isn't African traditionalist ideology to harm children. If you feel it is, you don't know anything about Afrikan religion, plain and simple.

[Eastside Revolt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 04:35 AM
I have done my own research, i'm telling you to do your own damn research. Yes, Christianity, Judaism, Islam are middle eastern, i never said they was the white man's disease, those are your words. Too say Christianity is just as Afrikan as European is invalid and a false statement. Stop spreading lies. I don't know what the white man does with their children, about it isn't African traditionalist ideology to harm children. If you feel it is, you don't know anything about Afrikan religion, plain and simple.
Okay maybe I jumped the gun a little with the disease comment.

Answer this though, exactly what is an "afrikan traditionalist"?

Last time I checked Africa was a melting pot of hundereds of different cultures.

EDIT: Also, explain to me how saying that Christianity is just as African as it is European, is a lie? :huh:

[LSD]

Too say Christianity is just as Afrikan as European is invalid and a false statement.

Well, it did kind of start in Africa... <_<


I have done my own research, i&#39;m telling you to do your own damn research.

I HAVE&#33;&#33;

And none of it supports your insane claim that somehow "Afrikan" religions are less intolerant or less irrational than "western" ones. But the, you haven&#39;t even defined what these terms mean&#33;


Stop spreading lies.

GOD FUCKING DAMNIT, you are infuriating.

:angry: :lol: :angry:

Your arrogance is so goddamn annoying, guerrillablack. You make these insane claims and then have the gall to demand that everyone else do the research to prove your theory&#33;

You have offered absolutely nothing in the way of support or justification for your view of "Afrikan" religions but still demand that we simply accept it. :lol:

I mean, honestly, this is getting really bizarre. You just keep repeating your slogans over and over. Do you really think you&#39;ll convince anyone by just making assertions again and again?

If you have evidence for your claims THEN POST IT&#33;

It&#39;s your responsibility to defend your opinions, not ours.

[guerillablack]

You have done research? Please post your sources. I never asked for you to accept my views. I told you to have knowledge on the subject before you make outrageous claims, which you obviously don&#39;t. Then and only then can we have a meaningful debate about the issues. How can you accurately debate how great dassaniya tastes if you never tasted it or even heard of it or have any knowledge of it? It doesn&#39;t make me look ridiculous by telling you to do research on it before you make claims but it makes you look foolish to sit here and debate something you know nothing about.

[LSD]

You have done research? Please post your sources.

Post yours&#33;

How is it that you think that everyone else must justify their positions, when you&#39;re the one making the counterintuitive claim?

You are claiming that somhow "Afrikan" religions are special and not as oppressive as their "western" counterpart.

Before you can expect anyone to cite sources disproving this, you must first cite your own sources that prove it&#33;


It doesn&#39;t make me look ridiculous by telling you to do research on it before you make claims but it makes you look foolish to sit here and debate something you know nothing about.

Research on WHAT&#33;?&#33;

Again, you haven&#39;t even defined your terms&#33; You&#39;ve denied that Christianity is "Afrikan", even though it was founded in Africa, so I&#39;m not even sure what you&#39;d consider an "Afrikan" religion.

Judaism?
Christianity?


I never asked for you to accept my views.

Yes you did. You made the assertion:

Again European, your applying western thought and western definitions on religion when not everyone believes in western thought nor are of european descent.

Not only was that completely without foundation, it was also vaguely racist.


Speaking of discrimination, I have a question for you guerillablack.


Originally posted by for the tenth time
Do you consider homosexuality to be abomination?

YES or NO

[Redmau5]

The ignorance displayed by GuerillaBlack is unbelievable. It&#39;s clear you&#39;re taking the stance of i know the answers but im not telling you. If you claimed you could spin on your head, and i asked you to prove it, and then you refused to do it but still persisted in claiming you could, i would have to assume that you are talking out of your ass. This is exactly what you are doing now. You are stating that African religious traditions are less backward and reactionary than their western counterparts, yet you continually refuse to prove it. It&#39;s up to you to defend your claim, not LSD.

[MetaZuton]

First of all, GuerillaBlack, You are INCREDIBLY ignorant of the very thing you are claiming everyone else is ignorant of.

There is no such thing as a universal &#39;Afrikan&#39; set of religions, as someone said, it&#39;s a melting pot.
How can you claim that they are all unified in any way?
It&#39;s like saying "All Christianity is equally the same" What, now we are to believe that those christians who deny the divine authority of the Pope are the same as those who prostrate themselves before him?

Fuck man, you are either dumb, or just fucking with people here&#39;s heads.
You say everyone who has posted here is ignorant, and then say that christianity has twisted traditional beliefs, and this is proof of our ignorance, YET I stated myself before you got the chance that this is what is going on with the current spate of exorcisms.
Seems to me, you just want to feel that you are better than everyone else, and have access to some kind of esoteric and perfect knowledge.

However, though the currently media-highlighted exorcisms and other practices are rooted in modern christian takes on the twisting of traditional beliefs, this does not stop SOME of the African religions (though I would by no means characterise them all as being the same like your ignorant ass would) from carrying out practices of ritual murder and rituals of a denegrating and authoritarian nature that are NEGATIVE to those who live in the societies pervaded by them.

Every country in every continent on this planet has at times had reactionary religions, has at times included sacrifice, has at times included human sacrifice (it used to be a holy vedic ritual, in India).

NO PLACE OR PEOPLE IS EXEMPT, and to claim otherwise is to make a claim of natural superiority akin to NAZI myths of being descended from Atlantis <_<

[Urban Rubble]

I don&#39;t have much to say on the topic, I haven&#39;t studied traditional African religions at all. I just wanted to say that reading GuerillaBlack&#39;s comments was literally the most frustrating thing I&#39;ve done all week.

Dude, what is so hard about backing up your argument? You continue to repeat your claim over and over, yet despite being repeatedly asked you will not post any facts or even attempt to refute the argument.

Say you were writing a research paper on...say.....NAFTA. What you are doing is the equivelant to writing "NAFTA is bad, it&#39;s bad for workers" and having that be your whole paper, nothing to back it up.

Make a fucking argument. Shouting your claim over and over is not debate.

[guerillablack]

Can&#39;t the same be said about him? As he is making statements without anything to back it up. The person making the claims first should back them up, which are the people who smear dirt on Afrikan religion. Using your example, it is not me, but he is the person writing the research paper, saying NAFTA, is bad and having nothing to back it up. I am like the professor marking it on the sides. How?Why?Where are your sources?It&#39;s not the job of the teacher to write a counter paper to every paper she receives&#33; I know this is not a debate, i never claimed it was, in fact, i said before we can even debate that you should have some knowledge on the subject or i am just wasting my energy. I urge you to do read books on afrikan civilizations and afrikan religion before you make claims that religions in Afrika are not intertwined nor have universal characteristics. In fact you will see that Afrikan Traditional religions, no matter if the tribe is on either coasts of Afrika are usually quite similiar. In the religious sense, social, cultural and ritual sense. I do not argue that sacrifice, even human, was practiced in Afrika. However, read the article, it says traditional Afrikan beliefs mixed with Christianity and Afrikan traditional religions do not sacrifice children.

[Severian]

You never give any source, though, even when other people do. You just make bizarre, untenable claims and repeat them over and over.

[LSD]

guerillablack, it was you who made the first claim.

You asserted that our definition of religion was "western" and that the reason that we opposed religion in communism was that we are all too "european". You then proceded to claim that there is a fundamental difference between "western" and "Afrikan" religions.

These are two seperate, yet intertwined assertions, neither of which you have provided a shread of evidence for.

At this point, however, I don&#39;t think any of us hold out much hope that you ever will.

[Bugalu Shrimp]

Regardless, the main fact here is that Christian fundamentalists - because that&#39;s what they are - are practising their sick and depraved exorcisms and beatings on innocent children in the name of "god". The relationship with African cults or beleif systems is irrelevant, it&#39;s the christian churches and their troubled flocks that are carrying out these twisted acts and they need to be held accountable here in london.

[Raisa]

*sigh* Thank you&#33;

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Bugalu Shrimp
The relationship with African cults or belief systems is irrelevant, it&#39;s the Christian churches and their troubled flocks that are carrying out these twisted acts and they need to be held accountable here in London.

Nice try.

But you overlook the fact that evangelical Christianity is a "big deal" in Africa now...and that it very definitely incorporates African religious traditions.

It&#39;s all well and good that authorities in the U.K. act to stop such barbaric practices within the U.K.

But where are the African authorities who want to stop those practices in Africa?

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/223.gif

[rebelafrika]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2005, 06:01 AM
There&#39;s probably not a single thread in this sub-forum dealing with religion in Africa and what it&#39;s really like.

Time to change that...


"Hundreds abused over witchcraft"

Hundreds of central African children living in the UK may have suffered abuse or even been killed after being accused of witchcraft, charities say.

The warning follows the conviction of three people over the torture of an eight-year-old girl.

Four London charities, working with people from central Africa, told BBC News this was not an isolated case.

The children may have been returned to their home countries for "deliverance services" or other punishments.

In one case it was claimed an Angolan child had been sent home two years ago, and had since been killed.

BBC correspondent Angus Crawford said community workers believed the growth of "breakaway churches" could be one possible cause of the abuse.

A minority of these preach a powerful blend of traditional African beliefs and evangelical Christianity.

Community workers also complain of ignorance on the part of the UK authorities, and a lack of resources to tackle the problem.

On Friday three adults were found guilty at the Old Bailey over the torture of an eight-year-old girl in Hackney, east London, after she was accused of witchcraft.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/uk_news/englan...don/4608943.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/uk_news/england/london/4608943.stm)

Never forget what the religious will do if they have the chance.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/223.gif
Okay...that&#39;s a "PART" of the story of religion in Africa...but I&#39;m still waiting to see a thread in this sub-forum dealing with religion in Africa and what it&#39;s "REALLY" like.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by rebelafrika
Okay...that&#39;s a "PART" of the story of religion in Africa...but I&#39;m still waiting to see a thread in this sub-forum dealing with religion in Africa and what it&#39;s "REALLY" like.

Have you studied this subject? Can you provide links to authoritative sources? Then by all means feel free to start a new thread on the subject.

I think that the evidence will turn out to show that religion in Africe is just as reactionary as religion anyplace else.

But the details are, by and large, unknown to us "in the west".

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/223.gif

[Bugalu Shrimp]

Originally posted by redstar2000+Jun 12 2005, 03:48 PM--> (redstar2000 @ Jun 12 2005, 03:48 PM)
Bugalu Shrimp
The relationship with African cults or belief systems is irrelevant, it&#39;s the Christian churches and their troubled flocks that are carrying out these twisted acts and they need to be held accountable here in London.

Nice try.

But you overlook the fact that evangelical Christianity is a "big deal" in Africa now...and that it very definitely incorporates African religious traditions.

It&#39;s all well and good that authorities in the U.K. act to stop such barbaric practices within the U.K.

But where are the African authorities who want to stop those practices in Africa?

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/223.gif [/b]
Right, it&#39;s a detectable crime in London - the scale of whats happening in Africa doesn&#39;t bear thinking about, where perhaps it&#39;s not even seen as criminal.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2005, 08:13 PM
Okay...that&#39;s a "PART" of the story of religion in Africa...but I&#39;m still waiting to see a thread in this sub-forum dealing with religion in Africa and what it&#39;s "REALLY" like.
There is a flaw in your thinking. According to you our thinking is too western en our views on African religions too biased. A nice way to say; you don&#39;t get it. Since the beginning of this thread people have been saying, then show us how is it really like. And all through all these pages, you simply ignored them. So asking directly:

How are African religions different then all those in the world and how is this thread irrelevant to the whole of African religions?

[redstar2000]

Whenever religious atrocities emerge, it never hurts to look for the money.


Originally posted by BBC+--> (BBC)&#39;Exorcisms are part of our culture&#39;

Belief in witchcraft is alien to most western cultures but common in Africa, says Dr Richard Hoskins, senior research fellow in sociology and religion at King&#39;s College, London.

&#39;Ndoki&#39; was said to target children particularly either when still in the womb or in early childhood through a piece of food infected with the evil spirit, said Dr Hoskins who has made an extensive study of traditional religions in Africa.

"I&#39;m finding this particular issue of possession is something associated with the Democratic Republic of Congo, the People&#39;s Republic of Congo and Angola.

The CCFB&#39;s pastor, Modeste Muyulu, confirms he and the 120 members of his congregation believe absolutely in the existence of evil spirits and witchcraft.

"We know that Ndoki does exist. Back home and everywhere else too there are people who are used by the devil to bring a curse or bad luck to other people&#39;s lives, even to kill them," says Pastor Modeste.

Antoine Lokongo, the editor of a Congolese newsletter, Congo Panorama, believes the growing violence in exorcisms is due to western influence.

Exorcisms in themselves were not a bad thing and part of Congolese culture and identity, he said.

"This is part of our identity, part of our culture but it&#39;s being exploited for economic reasons."

He said some of the churches and charities set up by Congolese people in the UK were simply "money-making schemes".

Child exorcisms were becoming widespread with the growing population seeking refuge in the UK from war zones in Angola and Congo, he added.[/b]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/uk_news/4596127.stm



BBC
Boys &#39;used for human sacrifice&#39;

Children are being trafficked into the UK from Africa and used for human sacrifices, a confidential report for the Metropolitan Police suggests.

Children are being beaten and even murdered after being labelled as witches by pastors, the report leaked to BBC Radio 4&#39;s Today programme said.

Today programme reporter Angus Stickler, who obtained the police report due to be published later this month, described it as "absolutely chilling".

"The most gruesome details come from the African communities," he said.

"This report talks of rituals, of witchcraft, being practised in churches in London. It is described as big business."

It said that people who are desperate seek out churches to cast spells for them.

"Members of the workshop said for spells to be powerful it required a sacrifice of a male child unblemished by circumcision," the report said.

Contributors said boys were being trafficked into the UK for this purpose, but did not give details because they said they feared they would be "dead meat" if they told any more.

There were also claims that youngsters were being smuggled into the UK as domestic slaves and for men with HIV who believed if they had sex with a child they would be cleansed.

"A few weeks ago the Met put out a number of 300 black children missing from schools.

"There&#39;s no evidence that any of these children have been traced.

"Therefore perhaps there&#39;s something terrible happening out there which we are not aware of."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/uk_news/4098172.stm

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/223.gif

[piknar]

Afrikan religions are the basis for almost two-thirds of the population of earth. Moses and his ppl left egypt into the promised land of judea...exodus....but before moses, king soloman and david, right?

well here is my view on monotheism, it came out of afrika. the reason there is a lack of info on soloman,was because the power at the time (the pharoahs of thebes) tried to erase all the believers of this &#39;one&#39; god ideology. 1000 yrs later, moses and his ppl,hence the remnants of that one god belief....

the jews fondly remember him as king soloman.... i think king soloman was akhenaton, father of king tut. the first king that believed ine &#39;one&#39; god. he moved the &#39;mecca&#39; of the times from thebes to a man made city that was created by akhenaton for the pure purpose of worship of one god. the gates of the city still bear the statue of him standing inn the formation of the crucfix....well some yrs later he died, and his son tut was only nine yrs old. by the time he was 18 and dead, the priests and wives of the gods brought back the house of god to the house of gods in thebes, and trying forever to erase the knowledge of akhenaton. of the 50,000 supposed followers all were slaughtered, yet 1000yrs later moses, a man educated with the pharoahs but of the ppl, came to learn of monotheism, as even kings have storytellers of their past.

tut&#39;s treasure&#39;s when carter found them, was the culmination of the lost treasures of king soloman...i wonder at times why no one has connected the dots? yet the true treasure of the holy grail in the fictional tale of da vinci&#39;s code, with a bit of fun can clearly show the bloodlines of the belief of one good, as many in that first instance were slaughtered for their beliefs, yet the blood of those that believed in one god lived on till moses,till jesus onto the merovignian.

anyways, wadda ya think? have so much more on the sphinx and its ties to hinduism, and the koptic monks of koreash and their theories on the unification of christians due to the imperfections, which hence created islam and the perfections. bishop of krakow karol at the 1962 Canonical sessions said "islam is the salvation".

haile salasie was a koptic. the kopts were the doctors and architects to the pharoahs. they are the ones that would get high on beer and wine, chew chat and write on papyrus paper. they are the keepers of the knowledge of king soloman. so 1000yrs later they taught moses, and hence jesus when he ran away from bethlehem. the kopts became the only educated tradition, and later became the monks that would write the bible in greek, latin etc. one of those languages was arabic. they were the only writers in the christian era that would write books in arabic. hence the possible group which created the koran.

:cool:

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2005, 09:32 AM
Afrikan religions are the basis for almost two-thirds of the population of earth. Moses and his ppl left egypt into the promised land of judea...exodus....but before moses, king soloman and david, right?
Funny stuff&#33; And irrelevant to the rest of the thread; there&#39;s little in common culturally or religiously between Egypt and the central African regions where these witchcraft beliefs come from. It&#39;s like identifying Lebanon with China because they&#39;re both in Asia.

But anyway:

Exodus is not history. There is little or no evidence for a Hebrew origin in Egypt.

(Africa, in the much more distant past, yes; the Semitic languages are a branch of the Afroasiatic language family originating in East Africa.)

David and Solomon were later than Moses (and much later than Akhenaton) if any of those people existed at all.


1000 yrs later, moses and his ppl,hence the remnants of that one god belief....

I suppose that&#39;s possible, that Hebrew monotheism involved some dim memory of Akhenaton&#39;s.


the kopts were the doctors and architects to the pharoahs.

LOL&#33; No, Coptic Christianity arose much later, when the Roman Empire ruled Egypt. After centuries of rule by Greek dynasties, not pharoahs, over Egypt. (Since Alexander.) Ethiopians were "Copts" only in that sense, of converting to the Monophysite sect of Christianity arising in Egypt....


. they were the only writers in the christian era that would write books in arabic. hence the possible group which created the koran.

More likely that even more heretical sects, somewhere in the theological borderland between Christianity, Judaism, and Samaritanism, and geographically in northern Arabia, Mesopotamia, Syria, or Palestine, wrote the texts eventually compiled as the Koran. See "The Quest for the Historical Muhammad".

Do yourself a favor and read some actual history, rather than just crackpot theories.

[piknar]

sorry dood,

you read too much western stuff. i am from sudan, i am koptic from sudan. the problem that arose out of christianity was...which day jesus was born, which day he died. whether circumsised or not. baptised or not. who is saint and who is prophet. a koreash monk had an idea, and got excommunicated from the kopts for it. try finding that in yo books buddy.

anyways, monk met mohamed and fixed the problems, plus united christianity as he wanted. it worked, hence islam....

the koran didnt come from the hill like moses and his tablets. you think the greeks and romans gave the kopts of eygpt christianity?&#33;&#33; I WROTE CHRISTIANITY CAME FROM AFRIKA. so did judaism, as all monotheism came from afrika. eygpt was a culmination of earth at the time, not regions like lebanon and china in asia. funny that you think that the semite slaves would have it in&#39;em to come out of eygpt with monotheism without a starting point. the jews say david, soloman seed of david....way tooo wishy-washy.....yet i give you evidence of a group of ppl 1000yrs b4 moses being persecuted for their beliefs. you think the romans and the greeks read about it somewhere, that a bunch of jews went and said &#39;hey one god for us slaves&#39;... they didnt have a tradition in writing like the kopts of eygpt. the first big kopt that we all hear of is enoch the builder of khufu.....servant of the pharoah. the thereputae (first doctors to the pharoah), its where the word therapy came from. they were the ones that could pass on information, even if ordered to erase it from history. hence how moses got hold of the only thing that put fear in the conservative preisthood of kopts in egypt.

anyways, china never took slaves from that side of asia, while eygpt took slaves from arabia, afrika and anywhere they wished..

even today, only somalis and yemenis chew chat, yet it was a favorite of moses and jesus. jews and christians, yet those traditions arent being used by jews and christians now. it is religous evolution, yet we try to seperate them as different, causing wars and what not.

also, exodus isnt myth or bs, it happened , just lost in translation by the greeks and romans. moses did go into a sea , a sea of desert. he knew the ways of the bedu, the nomads of the desert. he took his ppl into the sea of the desert, and those that followed did get swallowed by that desert.

and with yo reasoning, you&#39;ll probably tell me the greeks brought wine , while the romans brought beer to the mono party. your timeline of egypt must begin with the sphinx at 8500bc, greeks and romans came 8000yrs later. mesopotamia came 5000yrs later, india and china 5000yrs later. lets hear it&#33;&#33;

and with the personal comments,

[piknar]

why am i refering to the drugs of the time? because the therputae would tell pharoah its ok to drink this wine, and drink this beer....you&#39;ll get drunk. chew this chat, and you&#39;ll fuck like a king. what i&#39;m trying to establish is the use of drugs, and only the doctors would know of it. only the rich got the taste of the spices, not the poor. chat also was good to suppressing hunger like coco leaves in the andes, great for slaves when lil food around.

now to haiti, where they still practice voodoo, afrikan religion. did you know that rastafarianism comes from ethiopia, as it was haile salasies name b4 he became emperor of afrika. haitians and all west afrikan nations think that jamaicans are the damned race, why you ask? well they eat a plant that grows in carib isles and west afrika, the shashoombe. haitians use it only for voodoo, while rasta in jamaica eat it, saying only &#39;jah live&#39;. rastas are the bodygaurds of haile salasie. the warroir ppl. while all the rest of the black tribes of afrika believe that rasta&#39;s are damned for indulging in the shashoombe, only to be used in ancient afrikan rituals. they say that those that eat of it will be damned. it is interesting that women in jamaica will not partake in eating shashoombe with their husbands as they are superstitous of those ancient afrikan beliefs.

[redstar2000]

Nice try, Severian.

But if piknar is representative of the working class in Sudan, I think proletarian revolution is many centuries in the future for that unhappy country. :(

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[synthesis]

did you know that rastafarianism comes from ethiopia, as it was haile salasies name b4 he became emperor of afrika.

For one thing, Rastafarianism comes from Jamaica any way you look at it. Marcus Garvey was Jamaican and so were the priests who claimed Haile Selassie (an asshole) was the reincarnation of Jesus which Garvey predicted. On several occasions, Selassie, a Christian, actually forcibly removed Rastafarians who had made a pilgrimage to his palace to worship him.

And Emperor of Africa? Come now. He ruled over Ethiopia till the Stalinists booted him out.

[piknar]

i was born in dubai as a christian, to a sudanese koptic father and a roman catholic polish mother. did not get a passport from the uae on the basis of being a &#39;kafir&#39;. after every school seesion there, my parents sent me to krakow for the summers. these were the vice learnin dayz, of ppl working to no ends. only been to sudan once, and to afrika twice. so to be of afrikan &#39;working class&#39;, i don&#39;t know.
my first name is persian rooted, my last name syrian. i am a canadain working on a truck and rail dock in north toronto, we do not have a union and hence the 60 hr wk on the punch clock. my hands are caloused and i give 1/3 of my pay to the govt......

i apologize if i have gone wrong about my indulgunce in your banter about afrika. you are probably right to say that i have no place here. to have black and white family has been hard enough, the arabs in the uae say &#39;canadi, go back to yo country&#39;, while poles say &#39; go back to afrika you monkey&#39;, while the sudanese say &#39;kadab&#39; meaning &#39;liar&#39; in arabic for when i tell them that i am sudanese. canada is best tho, gives me a number taht they say does not discriminate, yet when i go for work, employers know if i landed in montreal in the early 80&#39;s or was a political refugee, just from those numbers?&#33;&#33; canadians say&#39;are you canadian?&#39;

i apologize again for my intrusion in your discussions about religion in afrika

[redstar2000]

It&#39;s not a question of you "having no place here"...it&#39;s that you were saying things that made no sense.

In fact, you are probably a representation of what much of the working class may be like by the end of this century..."rootless" -- without any clear national/ethnic/cultural identity at all.

So far, so good. :)

But if you want to post to message boards, you actually have to "know stuff" -- not a jumbled mess of half-truths, legends, and things that simply "ain&#39;t so".

I don&#39;t mean to suggest that we&#39;re all a bunch of "geniuses" here. But we have learned a lot of things...some of the people here are very well informed about certain subjects even if they&#39;ve never been to college.

The only thing we really ask of people here is that they know something about what they&#39;re talking about or they are willing to ask serious questions about things they don&#39;t know.

You might want to spend some time looking over the Learning forum to get an idea of this.

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[Ele'ill]

I think pointing out religion&#39;s mals in a political setting is quite amusing. I had a thread going a while ago about this and it was never finished as I decided to up my hours at my job. Relgion is the same as politics. Superstitious assumptions, blind faith in something unknown, twisting of history, the basement is built on a cemetary of half truths. It almost feels as though radical movments feel they need to remove religion out of competition. If there is only one ideological way of thinking (political) that requires the masses to give everything they have, blindly, with no immediate visibly rewarding compensation, then they will sort of bow to it. Taking away the avenues of escape from an oppressive system leaves that groups desired ideology as the only path that the masses can flee. Logically if religion was to be say removed completely then the masses would not flee at all. They would stand there angry and stare. Sort of off topic but blends in nicely with the surrounding threads.

[piknar]

you have to be an idiot not to see the flags of afrika, chosen most likely by the colonialists, maybe some comrades, no? ethiopia got a lion flag.....i don&#39;t see any other lions on flags in afrika. is there a lion in the jungle?

about how smart you guys say you are......you havent brought anything new into the fray...you also seem to think you know the right way into cyberspace. you have also criticized me personally, which indicates much if no evidence put forth against my statements. prove me wrong, don&#39;t say i&#39;m wrong without proof.

about hale salasie, yes an idiot, but still a symbol. bush an idiot but still a symbol. yes garvey in the regional sense. but rasta fari was haile salasie&#39;s name b4 he became the lion in the jungle. he got skewed as you, that believe in commie political shit tried out on the ppl. true communism is if we all get it at the same time, and i can only think of one thing that can do that, asteroid or some space cataclysm. otherwise you jus dreamers for the plan. lets hear it.


But if piknar is representative of the working class in Sudan, I think proletarian revolution is many centuries in the future for that unhappy country


funny you say that, CNOOC got shut out of sudan&#39;s oil for a bit, by western protectionism over energy resources. the west calls &#39;genocide&#39; in darfur, yet every year for the last 5 yrs the bedu of darfur have been trying to scare off the refugees from the surrounding countries to go back to their original regions. the refugees won&#39;t budge tho....both now are getting funds to exasperate the moment. enough for the un to sanction sudan...meaning no CNOOC deal. so CNOOC tries downtown USA instead with Unocal. but unheard of news is, that chad, the first country ever to hand over its financial obligations to the world bank, and hope that it can be sorted out. chad has oil but is land locked. libya no way for a pipeline, they just got back into the market, as if they&#39;d help right? nigeria got its own problems with their pipelines and corruption, so not that way&#33;&#33;&#33; nothing west of chad too&#33;&#33; but thru darfur to port sudan, delivery in the red sea, suez to the north asia to the south.....now that makes sense. so will china make sudan into what usa made saudi?

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by piknar
Prove me wrong, don&#39;t say I&#39;m wrong without proof.

Ok. If any of that crap about Hale Salasie being "God" or even "God&#39;s third cousin" were true, then how is it that a notoriously inept fascist army from Italy was able to invade and conquer Ethiopia?

Seems to me that "God" ought to have been able to drop-kick the Italians all the way back to Rome on the fly.

Salasie was nothing more than a tin-pot despot exploiting a wretchedly backward country -- there are thousands just like him throughout recorded history.

Of course he did borrow some scraps and tatters of Jewish mythology...and that was unusual for that part of the world.

But "unusual" is not the same as "divine".


He got skewed as you, that believe in commie political shit tried out on the ppl. True communism is if we all get it at the same time, and I can only think of one thing that can do that, asteroid or some space cataclysm. Otherwise you just dreamers for the plan. Let&#39;s hear it.

I can hardly understand what you are trying to say here. But if an asteroid hits the earth, you can forget about communism. If there are any survivors, they will be savages, not communists.

Like the stone age.


So will China make Sudan into what USA made Saudi [Arabia]?

Possibly...as the Chinese also got turned down on their attempt to purchase an American oil company. The Chinese are also very interested in Venezuela...which has enormous deposits of shale oil. I&#39;m not sure that Sudan has enough oil to be "another Arabia"...but Venezuela probably does.

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