[STUDY GROUP] Member Choice Study Group

[NovelGentry]

I don't think I missed anything here from the original. I apologize that everyone will have to vote again, but certainly you know the story.

[codyvo]

I would like to read Socialism:Utopian and Scientific, it looks like a good book, and I haven't read much of Engels work without Marx. Also, I think for the next poll you should have an "other" choice, and have the people write in what they vote for, on the other hand then it would just be 728 books with one vote each. I am glad to see the study group is off to a good start.

[Edelweiss]

We should also discuss how we actually organize the study group: How the "homework" should actually look like? How much time should we take per homework, a week, or more? How many pages should we read per homework? Should anybody, who already knows the writing well, give questions with the homework? Or should we simply elect a moderator for each writing?
Discuss!

[NovelGentry]

We should also discuss how we actually organize the study group: How the "homework" should actually look like? How much time should we take per homework, a week, or more? How many pages should we read per homework? Should anybody, who already knows the writing well, give questions with the homework? Or should we simply elect a moderator for each writing?
Discuss!

My suggestion is to make it somewhat dependent on the work. If the results of the original poll are telling of what will occur here, and Engel's work is what is chosen, it's broken into three major parts on the marxists.org site all of pretty similar size. I'm sure we could come to a fair comprimise as to how long we take with each section. Since these sections seem fairly small, I would suggest 1 to 2 days to allow people to read, and then maybe three days of discussion per each section.

As far as the format of the discussion, questions, answers, etc. I find the looser the better. We could also look around the net for general questions posed to the work and pose those. Anything is really possible... although certainly break down the questions as they are relevant to the section, avoid questions that look too far ahead until the end of the work, in which case I think the thread should just open up as any other thread for total discussion on the work and general theory behind it.

[workersunity]

im very excited about study groups, i just wish more people would be interested

[Sir Aunty Christ]

We could use the Study Guides available on marxist.org for some books, not rigidly, but to get us started.

[rcb31415]

the study groups sound good. when does it start?

[workersunity]

as soon as possible

[NovelGentry]

the study groups sound good. when does it start?

The original poll was going to last 4 days which should give most people enough time to, I imagine we would keep this one open for the same period of time. We haven't gotten as immediate a response with this poll yet as we had with the last one.

[RedStarOverChina]

I would be able to participate for 2 weeks cause of the exams

[codyvo]

This may sound like I'm taking it too seriously but bare with me. With the poll system the way it is now, a book could win by simply getting more votes than any of the other books, but this doesn't mean it got 51% or more. This system being such, could displease more than half of all the studiers. So what I propose is that starting after this poll, we use the Instant Runoff Voting system (IRV). Most of you probably know how it works if not here is a brief explanation: You are given a list of the possible books, then you rank them in order of which you'd like to read most, then once everyone has done this we average them out, whichever book as an average closest to 1, wins.

Like I said, this may be a bit to advanced for a simle study group, but hey, if we can work a poll like that on the board then it would probably keep more people happy.

[NovelGentry]

This may sound like I'm taking it too seriously but bare with me. With the poll system the way it is now, a book could win by simply getting more votes than any of the other books, but this doesn't mean it got 51% or more. This system being such, could displease more than half of all the studiers. So what I propose is that starting after this poll, we use the Instant Runoff Voting system (IRV). Most of you probably know how it works if not here is a brief explanation: You are given a list of the possible books, then you rank them in order of which you'd like to read most, then once everyone has done this we average them out, whichever book as an average closest to 1, wins.

I've recommended IRV to be implemented in various decision making procedures, although not sure if I ever said it on this. What would be a lot better would be actually implementing it in the board software. Encephalon and I will be starting a test board implmenting much of the ideas I expressed in my critique of the CC, as well as other technical advancements, I suspect IRV will be one of them. If/When the system is stabalized, maybe we can patch RevLeft to have it as an option as well. Until then, we could certainly do it "by hand."

[codyvo]

I'm glad to hear that, and I'm glad you have an interest in IRV, I've always thought it is a much more productive way to go abut elections or polls like this.

[workersunity]

i dont know about anyone else but i found engles, socialism utopian and scientific realllly Boooooring

[MrT]

I voted for a random one, just eager to learn..

[bur372]

Sounds like a good idea to me. I remeber someone suggested a book club with the cappies is this an evoloution of that idea.

[madmummyof3]

I've voted glad it's all gonna start was afraid that it might not happen after what happened to the last poll,

just now have to figure out when i'm gonna fit some reading in :D :D

[coda]

<>

[NovelGentry]

Since the forum says Study Groups,(plural) can&#39;t the other book votes be broken off into their own study groups if generated enough members?

And the previous study group posts would be resource notes for future study groups of that same book, etc.

I don&#39;t see why not. If other people are interested in the second, third, or last selection, they are always free to ... well maybe not. But they should always be free to use this resource to bring their ideas and thoughts on that work together.

[RedStarOverChina]

Looks like my friend Freddy is gaining ground.

[NovelGentry]

I still voted for the Stalin work, but I have no problem reading Engel&#39;s piece. I&#39;ve actually yet to read it in full.

[apathy maybe]

Can someone please create a link to the original thread. I didn&#39;t see it.

Why not simply post some general questions, give everyone a week to read the piece (or more or less depending on length), then have people answer the questions.

You would have to lock the thread until the time was up, then open it again so that people can post.

Links to the works would also have to be include in the first post. I think that as many threads as needed should be started.

Peace. :redstar2000:

[NovelGentry]

Why not simply post some general questions, give everyone a week to read the piece (or more or less depending on length), then have people answer the questions.

The only reason I disagree with this is because some of the works we may choose will be extremely long and touch on several very specific points that a lot of discussion could be derived from. However, if you read the entire thing, by the time you&#39;re done you may lose track of some of these ideas or even the questions that should be posed.

This wouldn&#39;t be so bad if people took notes or had physical copies to hilight, but not everyone will have that. Keeping it broken up will keep it as focused as possible and in the end probably develop the work a lot more.


Can someone please create a link to the original thread. I didn&#39;t see it.

http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=35889 -- this is the original thread on the works listed here, the original poll that is.

http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=35374 -- this is the original original study group thread, that started it all.

[guerillablack]

I wish i knew about the selecting process. I&#39;ll wait for next time when you choose other books.

[kurt]

Socialism: Utopian and Scientific by Engels

I agree with gentry on this one. We should go through it slowly, peice by peice. Discussion will help strengthen understanding of key concepts, and also greatly enhances memory retention. I say we have 2 days to read, then 2 days to discuss, peice by peice.

[codyvo]

I don&#39;t think that is quite enough time, some people don&#39;t have all day to at home on the computer like I do, I think we should have it be closer to a week long thing, 3 days reading, 3 days analyzing and the last day of the week, selecting a new book, and setting up everything.

[NovelGentry]

I don&#39;t think that is quite enough time, some people don&#39;t have all day to at home on the computer like I do, I think we should have it be closer to a week long thing, 3 days reading, 3 days analyzing and the last day of the week, selecting a new book, and setting up everything.

Well the idea is if we divide it up we will still give a reasonable time for everyone to read and to know where we&#39;re at. But 3 days for a larger book doesn&#39;t make a lot of sense. I think we really have to play it piece by piece... for some works 3 days might make sense, others, it won&#39;t.

[codyvo]

Your right, I didn&#39;t take that into consideration. I do think that before we start we should lay out some sort of system for how much time will be allowed per piece, and covering the other specifics.

[kurt]

Yea, I think smaller sections in shorter periods would suffice better. This way, it would probably only take an hour or two over a period of two or three days. If we wait too long, we&#39;ll never get a book done :P.

[Edelweiss]

Please don&#39;t be too impatient to get this started, I think we should wait at least a week from now on, not every member is visiting RevLeft on a daily basis, and we should give as many members as possible the chance to take part in it. The announcement that we have the study groups forum now is visiable on the fron page, so if we ait a week more, much more people will take part in it. Also, we shoudln&#39;t only consider the works that have been suggested so far for the next round, but give all study group member the chance to suggest more writings.
Also, I would be grateful if someone would explain that IRV thing again, I have no idea what it means, like many others here I guess.

[NovelGentry]

Please don&#39;t be too impatient to get this started, I think we should wait at least a week from now on, not every member is visiting RevLeft on a daily basis, and we should give as many members as possible the chance to take part in it. The announcement that we have the study groups forum now is visiable on the fron page, so if we ait a week more, much more people will take part in it. Also, we shoudln&#39;t only consider the works that have been suggested so far for the next round, but give all study group member the chance to suggest more writings.
Also, I would be grateful if someone would explain that IRV thing again, I have no idea what it means, like many others here I guess.

I have no problem with waiting, so long as it&#39;s not pointless waiting.

As far as the addition of more options -- there is a 10 answer limit on the polls, so really that is our cap (unless you were to increase it). We could always take the first 10 suggestions of each new thread, however, this too would be unfair for less frequent visitors as they&#39;d probably never get a word in.

We could also simply discuss (without a formal poll) and see where we end up, if there is a general and visible consensus. We could also take immediate suggestions from varying members right now, put it in a pool and than randomly select the works for the poll from it.

IRV is a system where people rate their options. For example, if you have favorite fruits, you would rate apple 1, orange 2, banana 3, watermelon 4, strawberry 5 (just as an example obviously). One being the first choice. If over 50% of the voters rate apple #1, then it is #1, if not, it cannot be said to have a majority. You then have an "instant runoff" election where the choice with the least number of #1 votes is removed and the second choices of those people who voted for that are shifted to the votes for whatever their respective second was. This repeats until there is an option which has achieved over 50%.

The idea is that if you have 3 options or more, with regular voting, one option might get 40% (which is not really a majority, but is still higher than the others if they were divided into equal 30% votes). This overcomes that.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

This is probably an incredibly stupid question, but what is a study group, exactly?

[Sir Aunty Christ]

A group for study.

[Sir Aunty Christ]

Sorry, but that was the best I could put it.

[Sa&#39;d al-Bari]

I would like to participate in such an activity. Engel’s “Socialism: Utopian and Scientific” is a work I have been meaning to read for awhile now. I ordered a copy of it but I still have not received my order yet. However, if I must I would be willing to read it online. I’d probably get more out of the work if it is discussed in such a format as a study group afterwards, so it’d be worth it.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

A group for study.

And what happens?

Each "student" reads a book, and then they are finished?

[Poum_1936]

I dont like these options for reading. Very limited. I have to go with Engels or Fromm. I have already read "Was the USSR state capitalist" and laregly disagree with alot of what is said.

[kurt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2005, 07:26 PM

A group for study.

And what happens?

Each "student" reads a book, and then they are finished?
Well, we&#39;d probably read the book in sections, and then report back in here every couple of days. If you had any questions about certain passages, you&#39;d ask them and we&#39;d get a general consensus on what the author was trying to convey. Also, we would discuss the importance of certain lines, etc. Basicly, it just helps you understand the peice alot better when everyone is putting in their two cents, clearing up any misunderstandings you may have had.

[Sir Aunty Christ]

Originally posted by comradekurt+Jun 3 2005, 12:26 AM--> (comradekurt @ Jun 3 2005, 12:26 AM)
[email protected] 2 2005, 07:26 PM

A group for study.

And what happens?

Each "student" reads a book, and then they are finished?
Well, we&#39;d probably read the book in sections, and then report back in here every couple of days. If you had any questions about certain passages, you&#39;d ask them and we&#39;d get a general consensus on what the author was trying to convey. Also, we would discuss the importance of certain lines, etc. Basicly, it just helps you understand the peice alot better when everyone is putting in their two cents, clearing up any misunderstandings you may have had. [/b]
Exactly what I was going to say.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

Sounds great. I&#39;m in.

[pandora]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2005, 04:43 AM
I still voted for the Stalin work, but I have no problem reading Engel&#39;s piece. I&#39;ve actually yet to read it in full.
Knew you would being as you often define dialectical and historical materialism and seem driven to that subject.

Kind of the whole ball of wax in a way.

I had a hard time deciding between "Marx on Man" by Fromm and Socialism definitions of Utopia by Engels. Must say I voted the later

[NovelGentry]

Knew you would being as you often define dialectical and historical materialism and seem driven to that subject.

Well actually I just wanted to read it cause it&#39;s Stalin.

[resisting arrest with violence]

Only a suggestion: I think the moderators should clean up this thread when the readers are ready to begin to discuss Engels so we will not have to navigate through all these introductory messages. All this scrolling is such a drag.

[NovelGentry]

I figured we were going to start a new thread for the works themselves.

[Karl Marx's Camel]

I agree with NovelGentry. A new thread for the works themselves.

[NovelGentry]

Well folks, it&#39;s 4 days later, and it looks like Engels is the winner

The work can be found here: http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1880/soc-utop/

It&#39;s divided into 3 main section, all of pretty equal length. I suggest 2 days per section, but as usual other suggestions are welcome.

[bunk]

I&#39;ve just read Part 1: Utopian Socialism. Complicated writing is hard to understand for me so i will benefit from discussion. This is a really great idea&#33;

[NovelGentry]

How long did it take you to read btw?

[bunk]

I think about 20 minutes, i was concentrating hard but sometimes stuff just goes through me, i might read that part again although it was just sort of history.

[coda]

Well, you can&#39;t tell how long it actually is online.. but Amazon states that it&#39;s 58 pages. can&#39;t tell what addition... looked like a pocket size. so, it&#39;s going to be a quick read as far as reading. comprehending may take more time. difficulty of material for a beginner I would rate as a 3-4/10. It&#39;s not marx and it&#39;s not Capital I --comparatively to Marx, Engels is like Dr. Suess, ---very clear and explanatory.

there&#39;s the three introductory parts and the three main parts of the book. I don&#39;t know how you&#39;re going to chop it up. By paragraphs or by sections. Like I said.. it&#39;s going to be hard to tell where the pages end on line to the book form to know how much you&#39;re reading.

By the way -- the list price for this book is &#036;4.

I am rereading as a refresher. I&#39;m somewhere in the introduction part right now.

[coda]

oh, I just read those posts. Are we doing per whole section then? How about the Intro parts. I think that is very important to get the whole context in perspective?

Maybe it is a little difficult, Josh. I was just comparing it to Capitall.. if you ever trudged through that.. you know what I mean. Capital is not so much difficult either.. but tedius -- but if you get a good marxists dictionary, you can figure out better what he means.

[bunk]

Yeah i&#39;ve just about finished vol.1 of Capital and that&#39;s very hard for me. I started the introducion but really i don&#39;t often read them. I&#39;m not as advanced as you lot probably as i&#39;m only just turning 15 in a month.

[NovelGentry]

We can do the intro parts too... but yeah, I was thinking divide by the major sections, because they don&#39;t seem very long. Even at 58 pages for a pocket edition, if there&#39;s an intro, preface, epilogue, blah blah, + the 3 main ones you&#39;re looking at that divided by 6, which is less than 10 pages per section.

[coda]

Well, then you&#39;re reading very advanced stuff for your age. no doubt&#33;

The tedious stuff of Capital is in his cotton equations.... I just pretty much skip over that. He is long-winded sometimes&#33;

Sounds good, Gent.

[bunk]

I just read the Part 2: Dialectics which was nice and clear at the end.


From that time forward, Socialism was no longer an accidental discovery of this or that ingenious brain, but the necessary outcome of the struggle between two historically developed classes — the proletariat and the bourgeoisie


The more strongly this earlier Socialism denounced the exploitations of the working-class, inevitable under Capitalism, the less able was it clearly to show in what this exploitation consisted and how it arose. but for this it was necessary —to present the capitalistic mode of production in its historical connection and its inevitableness during a particular historical period, and therefore, also, to present its inevitable downfall; and to lay bare its essential character, which was still a secret. This was done by the discovery of surplus-value

Edit: Now i have read part 3: Historical Materialism also. So i have read everything apart from the introductions which i may read some time.


To accomplish this act of universal emancipation is the historical mission of the modern proletariat. To thoroughly comprehend the historical conditions and this the very nature of this act, to impart to the now oppressed proletarian class a full knowledge of the conditions and of the meaning of the momentous act it is called upon to accomplish, this is the task of the theoretical expression of the proletarian movement, scientific Socialism.

[NovelGentry]

Alright then, so we&#39;re all cool if we begin discussion on the first section of the introduction in 2 days from this time? Approx 2:30 on June 7 Eastern US Time?

[coda]

I am cool with it.

Why don&#39;t you or someone else open the new thread and put in what section we are to start reading, when reading begins, (now I guess) and the date discussion starts as well as the link to the work. :)

[workersunity]

hey in terms of capital i have a version that takes volumes 1,2 and 3 and puts them into one, and gets rid of the duplications and isnt boring at all, just pm me if you want more info

[resisting arrest with violence]

Do you all use a regulator when you read? I recommend this book to help your reading. It&#39;s a good investment for the revolution.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...=books&n=507846 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0960170618/qid=1118073866/sr=8-2/ref=pd_csp_2/002-0275971-4250402?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)

[NovelGentry]

Do you all use a regulator when you read?

Yes, my eyes.

[resisting arrest with violence]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2005, 04:08 PM

Do you all use a regulator when you read?

Yes, my eyes.
Until I used a regulator I had trouble with regression (going over the sentences again & again) and subvocalization. The author of that book recommends you use your index finger or a pen (not to write on your book)but to regulate your reading speed. You should not zip through each line on a page like the comic hero Flash but in a smooth fashion. It&#39;s pretty good.

[Severian]

So is there going to be a new thread for each section? That might help IMO - whatever discussion&#39;s going on in the earlier thread can continue without interfering with the discussion on the next section.

[NovelGentry]

I&#39;m not sure if that would give too much clutter. I think we&#39;d be capable of restraining and keeping on topic, and then open up the board at the very end to general discussion. So additional points could be held till then. I don&#39;t know... what do others think?

[Severian]

Older or inactive threads will drop off the bottom, just like any other forum. Just need to clearly label the threads, part 1, part 2, etc.

[NovelGentry]

Are others OK with that idea?

[coda]

yeah, that would be good while it&#39;s being studied.

But, it should probably be merged into one thread when we&#39;re done so it&#39;s all in one place for others who may look at it later on for reference. It would be a big pain in the ass trying to find parts of sections of the same book scattered around in different threads.

[NovelGentry]

Sounds OK. I don&#39;t know how much longer I have here, so if I should be wiped off the face of revleft, someone else is gonna have to begin starting the topics and the polls as I have. BTW guys, discussion on the first part of the introduction starts in approx. an hour ;)

[Severian]

Do we want to start taking suggestions for the next thing to study? Options for a poll, that is. Maybe a new thread for that at some point?

My suggestion is Imperialism by Lenin. Highly relevant to all kinds of stuff around "globalization" and the overall picture of world social & economic relations today. Even opponents of his concept of the party use a lot of ideas from Lenin on imperialism and national liberation...

He describes a new phase of capitalism, which IMO, we are still in...some disagree, which is one potential source of discussion as its read.

[xnj]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2005, 01:35 AM
My suggestion is Imperialism by Lenin. Highly relevant to all kinds of stuff around "globalization" and the overall picture of world social & economic relations today. Even opponents of his concept of the party use a lot of ideas from Lenin on imperialism and national liberation...
I&#39;ve been reading Lenin&#39;s work on imperialism, not just the pamphlet by that name (which dealt mostly with economics), but also his more politically-oriented essays. I finished "Imperialism and the Split in Socialism" and "The Collapse of the Second International," and am in the middle of "Socialism and War." It is some really profound, sharp, and relevant stuff, especially on the need to struggle against the labor aristocracy in imperialist countries, which is only interested in joining with "their" bourgeoisie to exploit the colonial/semicolonial countries. Definitely provides some context for the fight today against the Democrats and their allies, and the AFL-CIO&#39;s support for anti-Chavez, pro-oligarchy unions in Venezuela.

[sadiq]

We must start from Basics marxism and we also need very much to discuss about stalinism,maoism etc
A new communist may get confused

[Lamanov]

So when do we start with a next piece? Do we choose again?

[Konqwest]

Yes I want to join in when we start a new piece

[Sir Aunty Christ]

How about Reform or Revolution (http://www.marxists.org/archive/luxemburg/1900/reform-revolution/index.htm) by Rosa Luxemburg? It&#39;s a very short pamphlet and lays down the case very well why Revolution is preferable to Reformism.

[Lamanov]

Ok, you suggest Reform or Revolution.

I suggest Luxemburg versus Lenin (http://www.marxists.org/archive/mattick-paul/1935/luxemburg-lenin.htm) by Paul Mattick.

Everyone should give their suggestions now, and when we get up to 7-8 suggetions we could vote.

Is that OK?

[Sir Aunty Christ]

S&#39;all good.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

I suggest Wage-Labour and Capital or Value, Price and Profit by Marx

[Janus]

This poll is closed.