A Peoples Army

[MKS]

Israels military has been called a "peoples army", because every citizen is compelled by law to join the defense force (orthodox Jewish are exempt). Thefore almost every citizen has been or is a member of the defense force. Therefore every citizen has a stake in the defense of the state.

Is it a true peoples army?

Should military service be compulsory in a socialist/communist state?

Is there a difference between compulsion by law or compulsion by principle or common cause?

[Fidelbrand]

Military service should be compulsory in any socialist/comumunist countries. The reason is to advance the idea of communitarianism and the common good, etc... 1-2 years of miltary service won't harm anyone.

Nerds or those unfit can join the secretarial work in the army.

Don't think i'm authoritarian or whatfucever. Negative freedom in capitalism is made so fucking sacred because the market needs it. And the gov'ts in capitalism needs apolitical citizens to think that they are all so bloody free (no direct state coercion means FREEDOM.. ha!) While the market is a formiddable coercive tool in deciding the "lives" of the people.

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2005, 10:34 PM
Israels military has been called a "peoples army", because every citizen is compelled by law to join the defense force (orthodox Jewish are exempt). Thefore almost every citizen has been or is a member of the defense force. Therefore every citizen has a stake in the defense of the state.
Except Arabs. Ya managed to remember the orthodox Jews, but forgot the Arabs. What's up with that?

Sparta also had military service of all male citizens.....in order to keep down the helot (slave) class.

Conscription in order to keep down an oppressed people is not the same as conscription in order to defend a revolution from imperialism.

[Taiga]

I think that military training should be compulsory. It accustoms people to discipline. And, of course, we need to defend from the enemies. Everyone.

[Matthew The Great]

If service in the military is required it should never be called "The People's Army". It should be called "The State's Army".

[KptnKrill]

Originally posted by Matthew The [email protected] 31 2005, 07:31 AM
If service in the military is required it should never be called "The People's Army". It should be called "The State's Army".
Perfectly stated.
Militia's of the people should do the trick. Everyone should be trained how to fight as part of schooling or something.

[slim]

If people refuse to join the army what is the penalty?

I suggest we do what happens in Switzerland. Those that do not join do not have full voting rights.

[fernando]

Hmm a draft huh? Every person has to join the army for 2 years at the age of 18 or something like that? That by itself isnt so bad I guess, however becoming a solder and being send to a warzone should be fully voluntary. You will get training for an emergency situation, not to be sent out by your government to do every piece of dirty work (like killing off entire villages because there might be insurgent there).

Perhaps it is a better idea to incoorporate this in your normal education, or like some sort of "outside activity" I remember that in the 50s in Peru the people who did not join the army had to do some sort of "weekend training" under military supervision...perhaps something in those lines?

[codyvo]

I think that military should be entirely voluntary, simply because if the people support the war they will join and if not they will not join, it is a great way to check the government from going into wars that don't have the support of the people.

[fernando]

How many people would voluntarily join up? I think that in socialist countries in Latin America which could be attacked by the US or inside enemies a defence is necesary, I mean the country would get attacked and a small part of the population (about 1%) has military training...that would mean you would have to train the population in order to defend themselves...it's better to have them trained before the enemy is there.

[Anti-establishment]

The militia idea makes sense, compulsory service won't always go down well with people, but if you give them training but then let them get on with what they were doing in life there would be less resistance and dodging.

[slim]

Codyvo,

In that case, war should be decided by consensus of the people in true spirit of left ideology.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

While a recognise the benefits of a couple of year's military training, I am skeptical about forcing people to do it.

I would rather that people be encouraged rather than coerced into the armed forces.

[codyvo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2005, 03:19 PM
Codyvo,

In that case, war should be decided by consensus of the people in true spirit of left ideology.
Right, I agree, if the people don't want a war, then no war should be fought.

[PRC-UTE]

Don't you think that if there's a revolution, people would rally to defend it? I've witnessed communities organise themselves for defense. Once again the middle class is underestimating us poor stupid workers.

What would worry me the most, aside from killing the revolutionary spirit, would be the mechanism used to enforce conscription. Any proposals there from future dictators?

[Vallegrande]

If anyone joins they shouldn't have to agree to the part: "Rules subject to change" in the military. One example is the stop-loss, when you think your time is up but they got you hanging there against your will.

[bolshevik butcher]

Making people fight is wrong, traning is a good idea but if people don't want to fight don't make them.

[codyvo]

I agree, train them, but leave the choice of fighting up to the people. Having someone fight that doesn't want to is worse than not having him at all.

[bolshevik butcher]

Agreed, and it seems to be depriving them of basic human rights.

[codyvo]

Yeah, also, I don't think most of us leftist would stand for a right wing military having compulsory service, rightfully so, but you can't take a hypocritical view on this matter.

[bolshevik butcher]

That's a very good argument, i wonder how many people for military service here would be happy if they got called up for the U$ army tommorow?

[codyvo]

Exactly, I'd bet most of the people on revleft are against the draft, let alone compulsory service, so why should we change our views entirely after the revolution.

[FriedFrog]

Exactly, I'd bet most of the people on revleft are against the draft, let alone compulsory service, so why should we change our views entirely after the revolution.

Perhaps because the motives of the army would be different. A system like that in place in Cuba would be a sensible precaution to take against foreign invasion.

1 - 2 years compulsory service in the Army would, if the revolutionary spirit is strong, only strenghten morale and the country in general.

There should also be 'manouvers' involving the whole population, to simulate invasion and so that the people would be able to defend their country if it were to happen.

This is, you understand, in a socialist country. No real dictatorship is needed, but a charismatic leader is essential to instill respect in the people and to bring about these military drills.

[codyvo]

Yes, but I was speaking of the fundamental principle of compulsory serviceand draft. Also, in a socialist country their would still be opposition to the government, and so they would be impressed into service, which is a very oppressive tactic.

[FriedFrog]

Yes, I see your point. Perhaps maybe there should be compulsory military service unless you, obviously, had medical problems, or if you were a conscientious objector. That way, those that did not really care whether they did service or not probably would go through with it.

So basically, I think military service should be greatly encouraged (perhaps with 'rewards' at the end of a set amount of time?) but not compulsory.

It all depends on how volatile the situation is aswell...

[codyvo]

Right, I have heard some pretty convincing arguments for the draft (not compulsory though). The best of which is that, the draft, with no way to buy yourself out, will prevent wars from ending up like they always do, the rich profit and the poor die. The draft could keep an equal balance of rich and poor fighting, and it would have people be less anxious about going into war because they know they could be in it. I think this is a good argument but ultimately, I think that volunteer armies are the best way to keep the interest of the people important.

[ErikuSz -sXe-]

Originally posted by Clenched [email protected] 31 2005, 08:05 PM
That's a very good argument, i wonder how many people for military service here would be happy if they got called up for the U$ army tommorow?
In Holland the CPN (Communist Party Netherlands) used to encourage workers to serve in the millitary for a while, learn how to use weapons because it could become usefull when the revolution would finally take place.

But now the CPN is gone, so is military service.
We have a professional army now.

[Redmau5]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2005, 08:59 PM
Also, in a socialist country their would still be opposition to the government, and so they would be impressed into service, which is a very oppressive tactic.
Are you saying that people in opposition to a socialist government shouldn't be oppressed ? Do you think the right-wing opposition should just be left alone ?

They shouldn't be given the same treatment as genuine leftists. They should become socialist or at the very least, neutral.

[fernando]

Originally posted by ErikuSz -sXe-+May 31 2005, 09:29 PM--> (ErikuSz -sXe- @ May 31 2005, 09:29 PM)
Clenched [email protected] 31 2005, 08:05 PM
That's a very good argument, i wonder how many people for military service here would be happy if they got called up for the U$ army tommorow?
In Holland the CPN (Communist Party Netherlands) used to encourage workers to serve in the millitary for a while, learn how to use weapons because it could become usefull when the revolution would finally take place.

But now the CPN is gone, so is military service.
We have a professional army now. [/b]
We have a new communist party I think NCPN or something if I remember correctly

[codyvo]

Originally posted by Makaveli_05+May 31 2005, 10:06 PM--> (Makaveli_05 @ May 31 2005, 10:06 PM)
[email protected] 31 2005, 08:59 PM
Also, in a socialist country their would still be opposition to the government, and so they would be impressed into service, which is a very oppressive tactic.
Are you saying that people in opposition to a socialist government shouldn't be oppressed ? Do you think the right-wing opposition should just be left alone ?

They shouldn't be given the same treatment as genuine leftists. They should become socialist or at the very least, neutral. [/b]
I understand the root of your argument, that us leftist are the ones who should benefit after OUR revolution but isn't it exactly that type thinking that we're are fighting against?

We support equality, in race, gender and in class, so why not in political association?

I know that right wing ideology is wrong, but that does not validate oppression. Imagine it was a right wing forum and your equivalent said the same about suppressing the left wing opposition, I suspect that you would consider him a fascist and a close-minded ignorant bastard.

To answer your question, yes. After the revolution is completely finished, they should be left alone. Whether the revolution last 100 years or 6 months, once it is finished, if we aim to be democratic or even non-totalitarian then we must, must, allow opposition to the government. If you look at what happens historically to those who suppress opposition, namely Stalin, it turns into a totalitarian state.

[kurt]

I believe it should operate as a militia. During the later years of schooling, the population should be trained as a fully functional soldier. After their schooling, they will all be given equipment, and will be responsible for taking care of, and storing it. The standing army should be small, and voluntary, with emphasis on naval and air force training, since the militia will not be trained in these aspects.

We should have no need for compulsory military service in the standing army, since the standing army only needs to defend from invasion, and the people's militias will be ready to defend.

[MKS]

Whats the difference between compulsion by force or compulsion by conscience?

Most Israeli citizens think of it as a duty and an honor to defend thier homeland. (the validity of the homeland claim is not up for debate on this post)

If a socialist/communist nation were to survive the attacks of the imperial capitalist powers, military service would have to be compulsory

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2005, 02:34 PM
Exactly, I'd bet most of the people on revleft are against the draft, let alone compulsory service, so why should we change our views entirely after the revolution.
You mean, why should we have a different attitude toward a capitalist state than towards a revolutionary government of working people? What kind of fence-sitters' question is that?

[ErikuSz -sXe-]

Originally posted by fernando+May 31 2005, 10:34 PM--> (fernando @ May 31 2005, 10:34 PM)
Originally posted by ErikuSz -sXe-@May 31 2005, 09:29 PM

Clenched [email protected] 31 2005, 08:05 PM
That's a very good argument, i wonder how many people for military service here would be happy if they got called up for the U$ army tommorow?
In Holland the CPN (Communist Party Netherlands) used to encourage workers to serve in the millitary for a while, learn how to use weapons because it could become usefull when the revolution would finally take place.

But now the CPN is gone, so is military service.
We have a professional army now.
We have a new communist party I think NCPN or something if I remember correctly [/b]
I know. :unsure:

[codyvo]

Originally posted by Severian+Jun 1 2005, 07:28 AM--> (Severian @ Jun 1 2005, 07:28 AM)
[email protected] 31 2005, 02:34 PM
Exactly, I'd bet most of the people on revleft are against the draft, let alone compulsory service, so why should we change our views entirely after the revolution.
You mean, why should we have a different attitude toward a capitalist state than towards a revolutionary government of working people? What kind of fence-sitters' question is that? [/b]
Like I said, I am only speaking of the principle of compulsory service and the draft.

[bolshevik butcher]

Originally posted by Makaveli_05+May 31 2005, 10:06 PM--> (Makaveli_05 @ May 31 2005, 10:06 PM)
[email protected] 31 2005, 08:59 PM
Also, in a socialist country their would still be opposition to the government, and so they would be impressed into service, which is a very oppressive tactic.
Are you saying that people in opposition to a socialist government shouldn't be oppressed ? Do you think the right-wing opposition should just be left alone ?

They shouldn't be given the same treatment as genuine leftists. They should become socialist or at the very least, neutral. [/b]
People are enitghtled to their opinions, if people are reactionary so be it, you cannot force them ot be socialist, i don't want to create a dictatorship.

[workersunity]

ya there should always be workers militias present, but military service shouldnt be compulsory, it should be so if someone is invading, which would make no sense because of internatoinalism communism, all the people would pick up arms. there would be no need for war in communism

[Severian]

Originally posted by codyvo+Jun 1 2005, 06:40 AM--> (codyvo @ Jun 1 2005, 06:40 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 07:28 AM

[email protected] 31 2005, 02:34 PM
Exactly, I'd bet most of the people on revleft are against the draft, let alone compulsory service, so why should we change our views entirely after the revolution.
You mean, why should we have a different attitude toward a capitalist state than towards a revolutionary government of working people? What kind of fence-sitters' question is that?
Like I said, I am only speaking of the principle of compulsory service and the draft. [/b]
Doesn't matter. Unless you're a fence-sitter, there's no reason to take a fence-sitting attitude towards any issue or "principle." The revolutionary position is to oppose capitalist drafts because one opposes capitalist armies...and certainly the army of the Israeli apartheid state.

[codyvo]

Your right Severian, I am in opposition of capitalist drafts but I'm also against a socialist or communist draft. Simple as that.

[RedStarOverChina]

Isreali female soldier. Probably for ceremonial purposes...

[El_Revolucionario]

Originally posted by Makaveli_05+May 31 2005, 10:06 PM--> (Makaveli_05 @ May 31 2005, 10:06 PM)
[email protected] 31 2005, 08:59 PM
Also, in a socialist country their would still be opposition to the government, and so they would be impressed into service, which is a very oppressive tactic.
Are you saying that people in opposition to a socialist government shouldn't be oppressed ? Do you think the right-wing opposition should just be left alone ?

They shouldn't be given the same treatment as genuine leftists. They should become socialist or at the very least, neutral. [/b]
Freedom is always for the one who thinks differently. - Rosa Luxemburg

[El_Revolucionario]

I don't think military service in a socialist country should be compulsory.

[OleMarxco]

If the people really wants it, all armies should be volunterly. Then it will truly be, "THE PEOPLE'S ARMY!" - When they will decide for themselves if they want to defend their land or attack someone else's for counter-offense protection! Forcing people to fight for their land is to say that they wouldn't have done so otherwise, i.e. it's not in their best interest! I say, let PEOPLE FIGURE OUT THEIR OWN GODDAMN MIND if they want to stop the enemy for wreakin' shit the fuck up. If they DON't, they WILL find out the consequences, themselves, of course. So simple :P

[bolshevik butcher]

That's a very good point, in captialism peope aren't free to join the army a lot of them are forced into it because they cannot get another job and need the money.