chechyna...

[bensquid]

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[RedAnarchist]

Arent many of the Chechen rebels Islamic fundamentalists?

[Intifada]

The Chechen separatist movement is split between Islamic fundamentalists and secular Nationalists.

[slim]

I dont know much about Chechnya.

Are the nationalists from the Soviet era?

[Taiga]

I don't really think that it's pure about liberty. Oil, money and power , more likely. And Islamic fundamentalism.
A simple question: who do you think gives money to "rebels"? Poor Chechen people? The war is a damn expencieve thing. It is crucial to find out the sponsors, and then we will understand the aim of this war.

I am able to watch Russian and European TV (including BBC and Euronews). This is really interesting. Two polar opinions. And I'm getting mad whtn I watch the news. Russian and pro-Russian TV say nothing about the atrocities done by Russian army, and European news keep avoiding calling the terrorists terrorists (who they really are).

[dso79]

anyone else have an interest in the fight of the chechen people??

I usually try to keep track of what’s happening in Chechnya, but it‘s not always easy to find reliable information about the war there, since the Russians have made it almost impossible for journalists to do their job.

It’s probably true that the Islamists have become more influential, especially since the Russians murdered president Maskhadov, but I still support the rebels in their fight against the Russian invaders and their Chechen stooges, as long as they refrain from targeting civilians.

For more news, articles etc on the situation in Chechnya check out these websites:

Kavkaz Center (http://www.kavkazcenter.com/eng/)

Chechenpress (http://chechenpress.co.uk/english/index.shtml)

[enigma2517]

A fight against imperialism should entail raiding a movie theater and fucking school full of little children?

Don't get into this whole train of logic where anything anti-imperialism=our side. Islam is crap, so is terrorism, so is state sponsored terrorism. Fuck both of them.

[slim]

I am against terrorism but i do have to say in favour of the chechyans, conditions were in place that caused the formation of terrorist groups there. Someone funds them too.

Also, what is wrong with Islam as a religion?

[RedAnarchist]

It is foolish to think that the enemy of our enemy is our friend. Islamic fundamentalists may hate capitalism, but they absolutely detest communism.

[slim]

Fair enough but Christian ideology hates communism on the whole. Do you hate Christians now?

[RedAnarchist]

Communists dont hate religious people. Communists hate religion.

[slim]

Lol. Fair doos.

[dso79]

It is foolish to think that the enemy of our enemy is our friend.

I’m not saying that the rebels are our friends; I just believe that, in order to improve conditions for the Chechens, it is crucial that the Russians (and Kadyrov and his thugs) are defeated. It would be great if a left-wing organization drove the Russians out, but I am not aware of any left-wing guerrillas operating in that region.

I also believe that in some situations tactical alliances can be beneficial. When we share a common enemy with another group it is useful to coordinate our operations with them and to help each other. Such alliances are relatively risk-free as long as we don’t supply the other group with anything that can be used against us.

[CheMN]

I aggree that they have the right to engage against Russia for their freedom however they aren't fighting for freedom. If you want freedom, you don't get it by kiling innocent civilians like children in the school or the civilians in the russian theatre. Those were civilian targets with no military or industrial value. Personally I believe that they are Islamic Extremists that are killing in the name of allah. Not for freedom, but for fun.

[Taiga]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2005, 10:03 PM
I aggree that they have the right to engage against Russia for ther freedom however they aren't fighting for freedom. If you want freedom, you don't get it by kiling innocent civilians like children in the school or the cvilians in the russian theatre. Those were civilian targets with no military r industrial use. Personally I believe that they are Islamic Extremists that are killing in the nme of allah. Not for freedom, but for fun.
You're absolutely right. They just want to make Chechnya a part of future World Halifat.
According to their believes they should establish the power of Shariat over the whole world. So they begin in Chechnya and other unstable regions..

They wish...... :lol:

But seriously, something should be done. We can't just watch. :angry:

[Intifada]

Originally posted by Taiga+Jun 3 2005, 01:24 PM--> (Taiga @ Jun 3 2005, 01:24 PM)
[email protected] 2 2005, 10:03 PM
I aggree that they have the right to engage against Russia for ther freedom however they aren't fighting for freedom. If you want freedom, you don't get it by kiling innocent civilians like children in the school or the cvilians in the russian theatre. Those were civilian targets with no military r industrial use. Personally I believe that they are Islamic Extremists that are killing in the nme of allah. Not for freedom, but for fun.
You're absolutely right. They just want to make Chechnya a part of future World Halifat.
According to their believes they should establish the power of Shariat over the whole world. So they begin in Chechnya and other unstable regions..

They wish...... :lol:

But seriously, something should be done. We can't just watch. :angry: [/b]
I do not think that anybody can blame the Chechens for the actions of a few.

The Russian Government, under Putin, is wholly to blame for the tragic events of Beslan and the Moscow Theatre Siege.

What the Russians are responsible for is nothing short of genocide. The Chechen people live in misery and this will give rise, naturally, to extremists of all sorts.

I cannot believe how anybody can simply point the finger of blame towards the Chechen people, after all the crimes that have been committed against them.

If you cannot see what is happening, then start doing some much needed RESEARCH (http://www.hrvc.net/main.htm).

[Taiga]

Originally posted by Intifada+Jun 3 2005, 04:48 PM--> (Intifada @ Jun 3 2005, 04:48 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2005, 01:24 PM

[email protected] 2 2005, 10:03 PM
I aggree that they have the right to engage against Russia for ther freedom however they aren't fighting for freedom. If you want freedom, you don't get it by kiling innocent civilians like children in the school or the cvilians in the russian theatre. Those were civilian targets with no military r industrial use. Personally I believe that they are Islamic Extremists that are killing in the nme of allah. Not for freedom, but for fun.
You're absolutely right. They just want to make Chechnya a part of future World Halifat.
According to their believes they should establish the power of Shariat over the whole world. So they begin in Chechnya and other unstable regions..

They wish...... :lol:

But seriously, something should be done. We can't just watch. :angry:
I do not think that anybody can blame the Chechens for the actions of a few.

The Russian Government, under Putin, is wholly to blame for the tragic events of Beslan and the Moscow Theatre Siege.

What the Russians are responsible for is nothing short of genocide. The Chechen people live in misery and this will give rise, naturally, to extremists of all sorts.

I cannot believe how anybody can simply point the finger of blame towards the Chechen people, after all the crimes that have been committed against them.

If you cannot see what is happening, then start doing some much needed RESEARCH (http://www.hrvc.net/main.htm).[/b]
Well.... there is a misunderstanding.
I do not defend policy of the Russian government. I know that they behave like nazis sometimes in Chechnya. And very often the Chechens have reasons to fight against Russian Army. Because even a very peaceful man will take gun when before his eyes soldiers come to the village and begin to beat men, women, old people and children screaming: "You all are terrorists!!!"

But my point is that I don't think that those so-called "rebels" are freedom fighters.
Please, stop calling them "rebels", "gunmen", etc. People that kill innocent children are terrorists. Period. The fight for freedom is just a surface cover. Underneath there are money, oil, radicalism and will for power.
I really believe that there are Chechens that want to live peacefully in independencу from Moscow. But I don't think that people we see on TV claiming that they fight for Chechnya's freedom are their representatives.

[dso79]

I do not think that anybody can blame the Chechens for the actions of a few.

I agree. The thousands of Chechens who have taken up arms against the oppressors over the past ten years or so cannot be held responsible for the actions of a few dozen hostage takers, some of whom weren’t even Chechens. Many Chechens, both civilians and rebels, have condemned those attacks and the late president Maskhadov had even vowed to bring those responsible to justice after the war.

The rebels have launched thousands of attacks against the invaders, but unfortunately the terrorist attacks are usually the only ones that make the news.

[bolshevik butcher]

true, i byenlarge support the chechens, but don't approve of the terrorist attrocities.

[Intifada]

I do not defend policy of the Russian government.

I know, and apologise for putting across that false impression. I did not mean to do so.


But my point is that I don't think that those so-called "rebels" are freedom fighters.


You are right.

Not every Chechen rebel is fighting purely for freedom and justice. Some do have deeper intentions.


Please, stop calling them "rebels", "gunmen", etc. People that kill innocent children are terrorists.

I do not think anyone has argued the opposite.


But I don't think that people we see on TV claiming that they fight for Chechnya's freedom are their representatives.

That is more or less due to the media blackout, regarding the conflict in Chechnya, just as dso79 has pointed out.

[CCCPneubauten]

Really, I have mixed feelings on the subject, it's almost as if I want to reach out to them, but they are anti-communist, and kill innocent men, women and children. I feel for the plight of the people against Russia but, there was a time when the rebels won, and the land descended into total Islamic fundamentalist anarchy (Not the good kind either). And the people of Chechnya wanted the Russians to come back and save them. So it's a really tricky thing. Just a thought.

[Frederick_Engles]

The Russian governemnt totures and kills tousands of Chechenians without trial, and the Chechenyians kill Russian school children...sigh.

[Taiga]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2005, 10:08 PM
Really, I have mixed feelings on the subject, it's almost as if I want to reach out to them, but they are anti-communist, and kill innocent men, women and children. I feel for the plight of the people against Russia but, there was a time when the rebels won, and the land descended into total Islamic fundamentalist anarchy (Not the good kind either). And the people of Chechnya wanted the Russians to come back and save them. So it's a really tricky thing. Just a thought.
Right, mixed feelings... Me too...
Oppression in both cases.
It's almost impossible to decide which is better: the imperialistic ambitions of Russia or Islamic fundamentalism of terrorists. Because both are unacceptable.

There must be third way: The independent state of Chechen people. Independent from Russia and radicalism. But is this possible in the close future? :unsure:

[fernando]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 10:01 AM
Also, what is wrong with Islam as a religion?
Religion is the opium of the people!

[CCCPneubauten]

Yeah, good point , not to the Islam is bad comment, but to the subject. I really can't decide, thing is Do I NEED to decide. I mean really they are screwed either way, maybe one day it will work out and socialism will rule the day. Most Russians actually want the Pre-Capitialism days back, so I hear from an issue of Russian Life. :huh:

I really have no problem with Islam or any religion, I feel that it sould be keep as far away fro the State as possible but you can't force people to just throw religion out of their hearts, its been around forever, I think Marx just had a bad expirence with it. But hey Im just a kid, I dont know it all. :(

[FreeChechnya]

TO CALL THE CHECHEN PEOPLE TERRORISTS IS IGNORANCE. IT IS WAR, UNTIL YOU REALIZE WHAT THE CHECHEN PEOPLE HAVE BEEN THROUGH, YOU WILL NOT UNDERSTAND. Belsan was sick and disgusting, but how many schools are standing in Chechnya? count them on one hand.

[viva le revolution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2005, 06:28 AM
TO CALL THE CHECHEN PEOPLE TERRORISTS IS IGNORANCE. IT IS WAR, UNTIL YOU REALIZE WHAT THE CHECHEN PEOPLE HAVE BEEN THROUGH, YOU WILL NOT UNDERSTAND. Belsan was sick and disgusting, but how many schools are standing in Chechnya? count them on one hand.
Exactly! most people only think of Beslan, why just because it was better documented? I mean that pales in comparison to what crimes the chechen people have to face 24/7, most not even shown in the media.
To equate one incident to decades long oppression is just idiotic.Don't beleive what you hear in the news. What after one incident now suddenly the oppressor is the victim. By the way the chechen struggle is not wholly islamic radicalist it only shifted towards that after the Russians murdered the head of the chechen resistance.

[Taiga]

The war in Chechnya is the war between terrorists. Russian terrorism vs Chechen terrorism. Beslan vs unknown (or not so known) crimes of Russian Army.

[Patchy]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2005, 07:14 AM
The war in Chechnya is the war between terrorists. Russian terrorism vs Chechen terrorism. Beslan vs unknown (or not so known) crimes of Russian Army.
As my friend has informed me, apparantly the whole war on Chechyna was started due to Chechens 'bombing' apartments in Russia.

The Russians blew up the apartments just so they could have their war. I'm all for the Chechens fighting for what little they have left. If I was in their shoes, I would do the same.

[FreeChechnya]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2005, 07:14 AM
The war in Chechnya is the war between terrorists. Russian terrorism vs Chechen terrorism. Beslan vs unknown (or not so known) crimes of Russian Army.
Russian Terrorism = 120,000 troops
Chechen population = approx. 230,000
Chechen civilian casualties = 100,000 +

Who is the terrorist?

You must realize the Chechen resistice is unable to fight a conventinal war. So defending your homeland takes other means. If anyone actully cares pick up the book "A Dirty War" it is by a prominent RUSSIAN Journalist - Anna Politkovskaya

it will open your eyes.

If your house is destroyd and your family is murdered, and you pick up arms would you consider yourself a terrorist?

[Taiga]

Originally posted by FreeChechnya+Jun 14 2005, 06:59 PM--> (FreeChechnya @ Jun 14 2005, 06:59 PM)
[email protected] 14 2005, 07:14 AM
The war in Chechnya is the war between terrorists. Russian terrorism vs Chechen terrorism. Beslan vs unknown (or not so known) crimes of Russian Army.
Russian Terrorism = 120,000 troops
Chechen population = approx. 230,000
Chechen civilian casualties = 100,000 +

Who is the terrorist?

You must realize the Chechen resistice is unable to fight a conventinal war. So defending your homeland takes other means. If anyone actully cares pick up the book "A Dirty War" it is by a prominent RUSSIAN Journalist - Anna Politkovskaya

it will open your eyes.

If your house is destroyd and your family is murdered, and you pick up arms would you consider yourself a terrorist? [/b]
Any person that makes violent actions against civillians is a terrorist.
No matter the reason. You may be perfectly right about your goals but if you kill one civillian in order to show your power or to seed the fear - you're terrorist.

It's just the definition.

[FreeChechnya]

and definitons are just words.

[Taiga]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2005, 09:36 AM
and definitons are just words.
Then don't avoid them.
I just want to call a spade a spade. I may support the liberation of Chechnya, but that doesn't mean that I should avoid such words as "terrorism".

[FreeChechnya]

Then are you calling Che a terrorist?