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1949
29th May 2005, 00:32
In another thread, Clenched Fist raised the issue of whether or not the Soviet Union under Stalin was a socialist society. I feel this is an important issue that deserves its own topic, and I tried to start something similar to what I am posting here a few days ago, but lost what I wrote. So here I go again.

I have personally been reading Conquer the World? The International Proletariat Must and Will by Bob Avakian, and I suggest others read it as well. It was finally released online recently, and is available here:

http://rwor.org/chair_e.htm#ctw

It is a long work with takes up many serious questions about the history of socialism in the Soviet Union and China, firmly upholding the positive achievements of the dictatorship of the proletariat while fearlessly and scientifically analyzing what some of the problems and shortcomings were, so that we can figure out how to do better in the future.

There is a long series of criticisms of Stalin’s approach to building socialism in the Soviet Union. And then, Chairman Avakian does something which I feel is very appropriate and necessary, and which I wish he would do more often: he explains why, in spite of all the bad shit that happened in that time period, the Soviet Union was still a socialist society, up until Khrushchev’s coup in 1956.

Here is what he wrote:

“So if you say all that, everything that’s been said here today, then why do you say that the Soviet Union was socialist during this period? And I think, in what might seem like an irony, it’s precisely because, in an overall sense, line is decisive. Here we have to briefly raise the question, what is capitalism and what is socialism, and understand more deeply how line is key after all. A lot of people talk about capitalism and socialism, capitalism restored or not in the Soviet Union, socialism advancing or not in the Soviet Union and so on, but one of the problems is that there is often not a very clear understanding of what after all capitalism and socialism are.

“What is capitalism? What is capital? I want to read here something I wrote in response to the idea that even under socialism, capital is the dominant economic relationship. In refuting that idea I wrote the following: “Capital is a social relation and a process, whose essence is indeed the domination by alien, antagonistic interests over labor power and the continual (and extended) reproduction of that. But, to get to the heart of the problem here, if ownership has been (in the main) socialized, if a correct line is in command (irrelevant for the calculations of the kind that say that capital in any case is dominant under socialism but truly at the heart of the matter)—which means that the division of labor as well as differences in distribution are being restricted to the greatest degree possible—then how is the relationship and process capital? It is true that the division of labor characteristic of capitalism (and previous class society in general) has not been completely overcome, that it may still have considerable influence and in any case is only restricted to a certain degree, while bourgeois right is dominant (or at least very influential) in distribution, but if the motion is toward eliminating these things, then how can it be said that a force opposed to the proletariat has domination over its labor power or even a force alien to it, in the fundamental sense?”

“Now the point here is not that we should use what’s said there, having drawn on the experience in China, as a stiff yardstick to put down on the Soviet Union. The point is not that, during the period of Stalin’s leadership and in the 1930s in particular, there was an attempt to restrict bourgeois right in a significant way in distribution, nor that there was an attempt to make all possible strides toward overcoming the division of labor. This was not so, because the necessity for doing that and the way in which that interpenetrates with the question of ownership—not just the form, but the content—and all these points that were focused on very sharply by Mao especially in the last few years of his life, those questions were in fact not well understood or grasped; and that’s partly a question of the limitations of historical experience and partly a question of the methodology of Stalin and the Soviet leadership at that time. But nevertheless, the essential question that should be focused on, the question I was driving at in what I just read, is precisely what is capital?

“There never will be a time, as far as I’m concerned—and we pointed to this in the article criticizing Bettelheim (28)—when in the most literal and absolute sense there is appropriation by the direct producers of the product of their labor. Even under communism things will go to society as a whole; this is a point Marx made in criticizing the Gotha Programme. Things will go to society as a whole and there will always be some form of exchange between a particular unit of production and the rest of society, however that works out; it’s never going to be that people simply appropriate in the most literal sense directly what they produce. And there will always be in one form or another political representatives; despite all the science fiction and everything else, I do not believe that the highest level that can be achieved is where everybody puts on their TV, listens to a big debate and pushes a computer, yes or no, up or down, kill ’em, throw ’em out, make ’em president or whatever; I don’t believe that’s the way that decision-making is going to be done under communism. There will be political representatives and struggle among them, and the masses will be decisive, yes, but not in the literal, direct, good old town meeting tradition.

“I think it was a correct thrust of the Four (following Mao) in China that they raised the question of political leadership and line being essential. And as to the question of socialism in the Soviet Union, well, it’s ironic but in a certain way intention does count for a lot. Because in the period, and particularly up to the early ’30s, what was the leadership in the Soviet Union trying to do? I’m sure the Trotskyites would love to hear this because it sounds extremely subjective, but what the leadership was trying to do and what the masses were being mobilized to do is extremely important, because what is capital? Is capital simply the fact that you work in an office and have more influence than I who work in a factory? That doesn’t make you capitalist, that’s not capital.

“The essence of capital is that the labor power of the workers is controlled by a force alien to them and it’s handed over to an alien force; and if it’s alien (and even beyond that, antagonistic) it means that that labor power is controlled and utilized on an expanded basis to reproduce relationships which are alien to them and opposed to them; otherwise capital has no meaning. And it is not identical with a mere division of labor, though capitalism cannot be completely overcome and the bourgeois epoch cannot be completely transcended till that kind of oppressive division of labor is transcended. Of course, I don’t believe there will ever be a complete or absolute elimination of all division of labor either, but the division of labor characteristic of capitalism and class society will have to be transcended. But even the mere existence of the division of labor characteristic of class society, though it must be transformed throughout socialism, is not identical with nor the same thing as capitalism. And the question is, what were the Soviet masses being mobilized to do at least up through the early ’30s? They were being mobilized to transform society in the direction of socialism, and for the purpose of contributing to the world revolution; and for that reason I believe that that was not capital, but socialism was in fact the dominant relation.

“I think this helps us to understand why it is that Mao could say that in China, the policies of the revisionists largely dominated during a period before the Cultural Revolution, that the majority of factories were following the revisionist line; but still not say—and he never did say—that China was not socialist in that period. Now how could that be? Well, these people who are anarcho-syndicalists, which Bettelheim tends toward (and others following him), think the ultimate purpose of world revolution is to control your factory. Mao was much more profoundly correct, and through struggling through some of these questions my own understanding has been deepened of the fact that line is decisive. It is precisely a concentrated expression of economics because what is the question—the question is what are you working for, what is your labor power being applied to.

“With all the mistakes and limitations, I think it’s correct to say, from an historical standpoint, that the proletariat’s labor power was not being controlled and utilized by an alien force in this period in the USSR and was not being utilized to reproduce relations where it was controlled by an alien force. Increasingly from the mid-’30s on, that question was thrown into serious doubt and perhaps that was being reversed all along the line; but again, as Mao said, the majority of the factories can be following a revisionist line, but if overall there hasn’t been a thorough change in the superstructure, then it’s wrong to say that the bourgeoisie has control of society and capitalism is already on the way to being restored if not already restored by that time.

“At this point in the Soviet Union, the war [World War II - 1949]—fought on a patriotic, basically bourgeois-democratic, basis—comes on the agenda; and the question of the nature of that society, as I said, is thrown up for grabs. After the war the monumental effort that would have had to have been made to put it firmly back (for the time being) onto the socialist road was not undertaken, let alone successfully carried out. Therefore it was, in a certain sense, ripe like a plum or ripe fruit to fall into the hands of the revisionists; and in fact they did resolve all the muddles and did thoroughly conclude the process—concluded it with a qualitative leap, however—of taking the Soviet Union onto the capitalist road. And here once more the crucial lesson is that we have to have both a sweeping historical view and at the same time rigorously and critically dissect crucial historical experience of the proletarian dictatorship and the journeys, the tortuous advances and then setbacks on the socialist road so far.”

[Footnote #28, which appears in this excerpt, refers to the work already cited in footnote #6: C.R., “China, the Dictatorship of the Proletariat and Professor Bettelheim (Or How Not to Criticize Revisionism),” The Communist, No. 5, May 1979, pp. 171-238. - 1949]

Anybody want to challenge this?

YKTMX
29th May 2005, 01:09
Tony Cliff would like to challenge it:

state capitalism in russia (http://www.marxists.org/archive/cliff/works/1955/statecap/index.htm)

workersunity
29th May 2005, 02:01
well then bob avakian is a dumbass to put it lightly, i know you like him all and such, but socialism cant have just one man ruling it, and a bureaucracy, thats NOT socialism, mr. avakian needs to pick up a book once and awhile, people like him to harm to the socialist/communist movement. sadly the soviet union was never socialist, although the closest was after the october revolution, and to say it was socialist under stalin is a huge lie

Lamanov
29th May 2005, 02:02
No!

Old threads:
Dictatorship and Democracy (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=34058)
Stalin (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=33502)
Stalin II (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=30398)
Trotskyism and Stalinism (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=29265)
Stalinism (http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php?showtopic=32490)

Writings:
Permanent Revolution (http://http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1931-tpv/index.htm)
Revolution Betrayed (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1936-rev/index.htm)
History of the Russian Revolution (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1930-hrr/index.htm)
The Class Nature of the Soviet State (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1933/sovstate.htm)

Poum_1936
29th May 2005, 07:40
DJ-TC pretty much summed it up with his "NO!" and following articles. The Soviet Union was the first to set up a workers state but that does not mean the USSR was socialist. I have yet to see a genuine socialist state on this planet.

As for the comrade who mentioned the Tony Cliff article...

Against the Theory of State Capitalism.. A reply to Comrade Cliff (http://www.tedgrant.org/works/4/9/reply_to_tony_cliff.html)

anomaly
29th May 2005, 08:24
The Soviet Union was socialist in that the economy was planned, but it was not socialist in that it was never a worker's state (it was ruled by a Vanguard, which never acted in the worker's best interests). Far from it. Therefore, I'd classify it as 'authoritorian socialism'. We must understand that such a system could never work, and so the Soviet Union was doomed to failure as soon as Stalin came to power and perverted the idea of the dictatorship of the proletariat. One man, or one Vanguard cannot plan an economy efficiently without incorporating the worker's themselves. In fact, dictatorships themselves are all doomed to failure, IMO.

ErikuSz -sXe-
29th May 2005, 09:34
Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2005, 06:40 AM
DJ-TC pretty much summed it up with his "NO!" and following articles. The Soviet Union was the first to set up a workers state but that does not mean the USSR was socialist. I have yet to see a genuine socialist state on this planet.

As for the comrade who mentioned the Tony Cliff article...

Against the Theory of State Capitalism.. A reply to Comrade Cliff (http://www.tedgrant.org/works/4/9/reply_to_tony_cliff.html)
Based on your name, POUM, I would say you are a Trotskyte.
I am currently reading your article 'Reply to Toni Cliff', is this a work of a theorist of the movement you are a member of?

Hiero
29th May 2005, 11:33
6 replies and no one yet has responded to the original article.

I will read it when i have finished my assignment and respond.

marxist_socialist_aussie
29th May 2005, 11:52
without doing a detailed reply, I would argue no as it betrayed many of Marx's original principles etc. However, if one judges communism/socialism upon Stalin's own ideologue thoughts, then one could argue yes. However, as others have said before, Stalin and his ideology went against many original communist/socialist ideals.

Lamanov
29th May 2005, 14:29
This questuion is not about if you are Trotskyist or not.
This is about: do you have any brain in your head or not.

The reason I posted link's to Trotsky's works is because he has finest and most dedicated analisys on this subject.

ErikuSz -sXe-
29th May 2005, 15:00
I read the article and frankly, I don’t think Avakian is much of a marxist. I read a lot of times words like ‘I think that ... ’ or ‘I believe this ...’ or ‘there is a comment by Lenin, I think ...’. This isn’t a scientific work! It is guessing & replacing air without a purpose or goal. He talks constantly about ‘historical experience’ but fails every single time to give a clear example! He doesn’t agree with Marx on destroying the bureaucracy or limiting the powers of the church because of his secret ‘historical evidence’ and is really making a mess out of a clear marxist theory on proletarian internationalism saying that ‘It can be seen that there is in general a tendency in Marx’s summation of the Commune to extrapolate and generalize too much from that particular experience.’


There never will be a time, as far as I’m concerned—and we pointed to this in the article criticizing Bettelheim (28)—when in the most literal and absolute sense there is appropriation by the direct producers of the product of their labor. Even under communism things will go to society as a whole; this is a point Marx made in criticizing the Gotha Programme. Things will go to society as a whole and there will always be some form of exchange between a particular unit of production and the rest of society, however that works out; it’s never going to be that people simply appropriate in the most literal sense directly what they produce. And there will always be in one form or another political representatives; despite all the science fiction and everything else, I do not believe that the highest level that can be achieved is where everybody puts on their TV, listens to a big debate and pushes a computer, yes or no, up or down, kill ’em, throw ’em out, make ’em president or whatever; I don’t believe that’s the way that decision-making is going to be done under communism. There will be political representatives and struggle among them, and the masses will be decisive, yes, but not in the literal, direct, good old town meeting tradition.

Avakian does not believe that 'that people simply appropriate in the most literal sense directly what they produce' and he thinks that 'there will always be in one form or another political representatives'!

Is the man even sure he wants communism? :huh:
The whole idea of decentralisation doesn't even seem to be an option for him, even though it is the best way to fight bureaucracy, avoid politics to be lead by representatives and make it possible for workers to actually appropriate in the most literal sense directly what they produce!

This very idea of decentralisation, of the worker being in charge of his own life without a government to die for, without politicians to choose from and without bureaucracy to plague him THAT is socialism.

Did Stalin create these conditions? No!
Would Trotsky have created these conditions? No!

And the reason is very simple: Capitali$m could still grow, it did not yet reach every part of the globe, it wasn't a world-system yet and so the time wasn't right. Only a system that is so stiff that it doesn't have any way to save its benefited class can be destroyed.

El_Revolucionario
29th May 2005, 18:19
Stalin was a bourgeois totalitarian maniac. Hell no, Stalin's Soviet Union was no socialist society.

bolshevik butcher
29th May 2005, 18:33
It wasn't because it was just that STALIN'S soviet union. A dictatorship of one man and his beauracracy, in the aftermath of 1917 untils tlain took over progress was made, soviets wer really in control of the country, socialism was getting there. All this stopped when stlain took over.

Redmau5
30th May 2005, 17:20
As soon as the Revolution happened, Soviets effectivily lost power as it was only Bolsheviks running them, which meant they were getting their orders direct from Moscow. Centralisation certainly got worse under Stalin, but it has begun long before he came to power.

Holocaustpulp
31st May 2005, 02:11
Not at all. No socialist suppresses the workers, upholds the police state, abridges rights, shuts down democracy, kills millions...

Stalin was a terrible man, and Stalinism is a terrible thing.

Neither represent socialism whatsoever.

- HP

bolshevik butcher
31st May 2005, 19:25
Welcome aboard comerade! :D

redwinter
31st May 2005, 20:36
Yes, the USSR was socialist under Stalin. I haven't heard an argument that makes sense to refute it. Think: What is socialism? How does it differ from capitalism?

Under socialism I DO uphold a police state - the proletariat having a police state over the bourgeoisie, rather than the other way around as we have right now. All states are "police states" - the state is just an armed tool of repression of the dominant class. if the dominant class is the proletariat, and it exercises its state/dictatorship (same thing) over the bourgeoisie - ie the proletariat acheives true political power - then it is socialism.

Stalin made some errors in the fight for communism - stemming from metaphysical and mechanical approaches to certain contradictions and mistaking some contradictions among the people as contradictions between the people and the enemy, and of course not recognizing the necessity to continue the class struggle under socialism against the nascent bourgeoisie in the party and in the new state. But overall he was good, Mao said something like Stalin's actions were about 70% good, 30% bad. This is not to be taken quantitatively but as a general estimate and to show that he should be generally upheld as a leader of socialism in the USSR.

bolshevik butcher
31st May 2005, 20:59
In socialism the people decide on a ruler, and it isn't massivley centralized either.

ErikuSz -sXe-
31st May 2005, 23:18
Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2005, 07:36 PM
Under socialism I DO uphold a police state - the proletariat having a police state over the bourgeoisie, rather than the other way around as we have right now. All states are "police states" - the state is just an armed tool of repression of the dominant class.
In socialism you don't need a repression apparatus if the workers are already armed. Arming the workers is the best security we could have! Who better to defend their own rights?

And I agree with Clenched Fist; avoiding centralisation is avoiding a state apparatus! We must do this at all cost for the very simple reason that politicians can become corrupt, but a class can't!

Redmau5
31st May 2005, 23:23
Originally posted by Clenched [email protected] 31 2005, 07:59 PM
In socialism the people decide on a ruler, and it isn't massivley centralized either.
What ? That's ridiculous. People don't decide on rulers in a truly socialist society, the people are the rulers.

But i do believe that a vanguard is needed, at least at the start of the Revolution. I just can't see the masses being able to effectively organise themselves into one co-ordinated body. With so many differences on the left, from Anarchists to Stalinists, it's necessary to have one group to focus the attention of the masses.

The problem with Russia was Stalin was intent on keeping that group in power for as long as possible.

Holocaustpulp
1st June 2005, 01:34
Let bring more attention to this character Redwinter, who openly stomps Marxism in the name of a tyrant and a monstrosity: "Yes, the USSR was socialist under Stalin.... Think: What is socialism? How does it differ from capitalism?"

Socialism differs from capitalism in that it gives power to the people, it provides a basis for political and economic equality, and it is the epitome and pinnacle of freedom (to name a few general points). Stalin defied all of these with the gulags, forced relocations (mimicked by Pol Pot, who is just as bad), propaganda trials, the purges by the NKVD and the alliance with Yagoda (the OGPU's and NKVD's head), the repression of dissent, the concentration of economic superiority in the Kremlin, etc.

"Under socialism I DO uphold a police state - the proletariat having a police state over the bourgeoisie, rather than the other way around as we have right now. All states are 'police states' - the state is just an armed tool of repression of the dominant class. if the dominant class is the proletariat, and it exercises its state/dictatorship (same thing) over the bourgeoisie - ie the proletariat acheives true political power - then it is socialism."

The police state is something found in capitalist countries and also in dictatorial countries - the latter is exactly what you are advocating. "Police States" are not composed of the actual people, but rather separate themselves from the masses by imposing minority and repressive measures on the general public (including the proletariat and peasantry). As Marx notes in his "Critique of Hegel's Doctrine of State," government is defined by minority leadership externally imposing wills upon the people from above. This is what the NKVD (later the KGB) did under Stalin. The dominant class does not repress opposition, it defends itself from it; the dictatorship of the proletariat does not denote any use of an organized police state as a means of centralized power implementation, but rather (as Lenin constantly tells us) a socialist society rests in the hands of a voluntary force of armed workers, such as the Red Guards or the populace of the Paris Commune. And under the Stalin, the proletariat never experienced power - it was the Kremlin's arbitrary notions that pushed the lower-class (for there indeed was class in Soviet Russia) with impunity.

"Stalin made some errors in the fight for communism...."

Perhaps the only thing (besides the victory over the Nazis) the Stalinist regime can be commended for is the economy, and even that was ruined by Stalin's political centralization. Otherwise, the undisputed majority of Stalin's actions were regressive.

"But overall he was good, Mao said something like Stalin's actions were about 70% good, 30% bad. This is not to be taken quantitatively but as a general estimate and to show that he should be generally upheld as a leader of socialism in the USSR."

Stalinism does not reflect socialism but rather some cheap version of it, one which utilizes class struggle for the means of dictatorship, repression, party-power, and centralization. In a word, Stalinism (and Maoism) is against the masses and is pseudo-Marxist; hence, such divagations from Marxism can only be referred to pseudo-socialist.

Shame on you.

- Holocaustpulp

h&s
1st June 2005, 16:46
Whilst I detest Stalinism and all it stands for, I don't see how you can deny that under him the USSR was socialist in some way.
It was not socialism in any way I'd like to see it, but nevertheless it was socialism.
The economy was planned and not run in the anarchial capitalist way, it was controlled which greatly benefitted the working class - nothuing was run for profit, it was run (to a certain extent) for need. There was very little private enterprise at all. Of course if it wasn't for Stalin the working class would have benefitted far more as they would have actually been in control, but that was not the case.
Under him the USSR was not democratic socialist, but it was socialist.

Redmau5
1st June 2005, 16:58
How ? The state owned the means of production, not the workers. Although the state claimed "it worked in the interest of the workers", we know that wasn't true. Capitalism still existed, because workers were still being paid less than what their labour produced.

It wasn't socialism, it was state capitalism.

Poum_1936
1st June 2005, 18:00
I would not call the USSR state capitalism. But by no means was it socialist or ever was socialist.

A planned economy (which made great advances in the Soviet Union) does not by itself proclaim socialism. Socialism requires democracy both politicaly and economically or it is nothing.

Lamanov
1st June 2005, 18:25
Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2005, 05:00 PM
I would not call the USSR state capitalism.
Why not?
It was.

bolshevik butcher
1st June 2005, 19:02
Originally posted by Makaveli_05+May 31 2005, 10:23 PM--> (Makaveli_05 @ May 31 2005, 10:23 PM)
Clenched [email protected] 31 2005, 07:59 PM
In socialism the people decide on a ruler, and it isn't massivley centralized either.
What ? That's ridiculous. People don't decide on rulers in a truly socialist society, the people are the rulers.

But i do believe that a vanguard is needed, at least at the start of the Revolution. I just can't see the masses being able to effectively organise themselves into one co-ordinated body. With so many differences on the left, from Anarchists to Stalinists, it's necessary to have one group to focus the attention of the masses.

The problem with Russia was Stalin was intent on keeping that group in power for as long as possible. [/b]
Sorry i badly phrased that. I mean the peopel are the rulers but they decide who holds positions of office, and they certainly didn't in stalin's case, he was a prodict of the bearaucracy.

Redmau5
1st June 2005, 19:52
Yes i know what you mean now. Trotsky said that during the Civil War, it was necessary for the high-ranking party members (the Politburo, Central Committee) to appoint their own secretaries etc., due to the hectic situation. However, he said this system of appointing your own people became 10 times worse under Stalin, which meant an absense of democracy on all levels within the Party and the State, and also an obscene rise in bureacracy.

Holocaustpulp
1st June 2005, 23:15
To h&s: democracy is an INHERENT characteristic of socialism. Arguing that it is isn't is anti-Marxist. There is no middle between capitalism and socialism (as Hugo Chavez discovered), thus there is no such thing as a half-socialist country. Perhaps the USSR was quasi-socialist due to its economic policies, yet Stalin (as another comrade mentioned) eventually managed to subordinat the workers economically as well as politically to the Kremlin.

True Marxists wont stand for this tomfoolery, for in the end such negligence of socialist principles leads to disasterous consequences.

- Holocaustpulp

h&s
2nd June 2005, 14:56
If that is your definition of socialism, then I agree with you. Democracy should alyways be fundemnatal in socialism.
I don't like the definition of state-capiltalism as that implies that the USSR was run for private profit, which it was not.

Redmau5
2nd June 2005, 15:15
It doesn't mean that. It means the workers were still exploited, because they were still producing more for their labour than they were getting paid. In other words, the wage-slave labour system still existed.

bolshevik butcher
2nd June 2005, 21:47
Originally posted by h&[email protected] 2 2005, 01:56 PM
If that is your definition of socialism, then I agree with you. Democracy should alyways be fundemnatal in socialism.
I don't like the definition of state-capiltalism as that implies that the USSR was run for private profit, which it was not.
It was, for the private gain of the high of society.

Holocaustpulp
2nd June 2005, 22:08
I agree with clenched fist and others that the USSR retained a capitalist character. And
h & s, by admitting that democracy is inherent of socialism, you just proved to yourself that the USSR was not socialist.

- HP

h&s
3rd June 2005, 16:53
I agree with everyone here, but to call the USSR state-capitalist diminishes the massive gains it gave the working class.
I should be calling it degenerative socialist (thats what I meant to start with, but you know, I've got a mind like a seive..), which takes into account the state-ownership of the means of production, but the lack of true socialism.

YKTMX
3rd June 2005, 17:01
Here's Engels on the perils of calling all state ownership socialist:


But of late, since Bismarck went in for State-ownership of industrial establishments, a kind of spurious Socialism has arisen, degenerating, now and again, into something of flunkyism, that without more ado declares all State-ownership, even of the Bismarkian sort, to be socialistic. Certainly, if the taking over by the State of the tobacco industry is socialistic, then Napoleon and Metternich must be numbered among the founders of Socialism.


Link (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1880/soc-utop/ch03.htm)

Che1990
3rd June 2005, 18:44
The soviet union CLAIMED to be socialist. But there is a difference between CLAIMING to be socialist and ACTUALLY BEING socialist.

Redmau5
4th June 2005, 14:19
State-ownership of industry means little if the workers are still being exploited. Yes the USSR made gains for workers, but no where near close enough to what it could have achieved.

Wiesty
4th June 2005, 21:19
Was Stalin's Soviet Union a socialist society?

does urine go on brownies?

cenlcehd fsit
5th June 2005, 00:37
Originally posted by h&[email protected] 2 2005, 01:56 PM
If that is your definition of socialism, then I agree with you. Democracy should alyways be fundemnatal in socialism.
I don't like the definition of state-capiltalism as that implies that the USSR was run for private profit, which it was not.

It was, for the prviate gain of the hgih of soceity.

Wiesty
5th June 2005, 02:51
u suck, clenched fist rock

redstar2000
5th June 2005, 03:24
1949 made reference to this statement by Bob Avakian on another board...


Originally posted by Avakian
And there will always be in one form or another political representatives; despite all the science fiction and everything else, I do not believe that the highest level that can be achieved is where everybody puts on their TV, listens to a big debate and pushes a computer, yes or no, up or down, kill ’em, throw ’em out, make ’em president or whatever; I don’t believe that’s the way that decision-making is going to be done under communism. There will be political representatives and struggle among them, and the masses will be decisive, yes, but not in the literal, direct, good old town meeting tradition.

This would seem to suggest that Avakian's notion of "communism" will include a permanent state apparatus...what else requires "political representatives"?

It is as I have maintained repeatedly: Leninists don't really want communism -- there's no special place for them in a stateless society.

Bummer! :o

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cool/123.gif

El_Revolucionario
5th June 2005, 04:12
Bob Avakian = serious ego issues

CrazyModerate
5th June 2005, 05:08
The Soviet Union was always an elitist society that kicked down the poor, and essentially done what Marx would have hated. Created a despotic militaristic regime.

anomaly
5th June 2005, 07:03
No, not a genuine socialist nation. Since any socialist nation entails nationalizing the economy, we must carefully consider what the 'national' is. In the case of the USSR, the national consisted of a vanguard, and this vanguard did not represent the workingclass. Therefore we can easily see that the economy of the USSR was doomed from the time Stalin took over, as one small undemocratic coucil cannot possibly represent the needs of a class they rule over. I'd consider the USSR an 'authoritorian socialist' naton, since the government was authoritorian, but the economy was still nationalized.

That being said, we must consider whether this is the socialism we are today pushing for. We most certainly are not pursuing this socialism, but rather democratic socialism.

workersunity
9th June 2005, 02:44
just because we didnt reply doesnt mean that we dont know if it was socialist or not, just because avakian goes off into these diffferent tangents doesnt make him intelligent, the soviet union was NEVER socialist, it was always run by either a bureaucracy,one man, or party dictatorship, thats not socialism, socialism is rule by the PEOPLE themselves

romanm
13th June 2005, 00:03
Of course the Soviet Union was socialist.

comrade_mufasa
13th June 2005, 03:08
Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2005, 06:03 PM
Of course the Soviet Union was socialist.
why? there is more to being socialist then nationalizing industry.

MParenti
13th June 2005, 03:26
Let's see, a very narrow income gap, free public access to healthcare and education, full employment, the control of the country by a largely worker-peasant controlled Communist Party. (The critiques of the purges overlook the fact that it while excessive, it resulted in workers and peasants being appointed to party offices over bureaucrats).

Spartakist
15th June 2005, 03:16
The USSR was NOT Socialist. If to be Socialist, you only need to nationalize the economy, then Hitler, Mussolini and other right wingers are socialists. All the politicians that argue for the Welfare state have some degree of Socialism, according to that definition...

Socialism is the control BY workers of society (putting it simply). In the USSR this control did not take place. In the beginning, it was socialist because the Soviets had power, but step by step the CP replaced them.

Th CP was not run by workers.